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Tags donald trump , Trump controversies

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Old 27th March 2023, 03:32 PM   #2481
Skeptic Ginger
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Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
....Why am I saying all this? I want to prevent a Civil War. ...
Pretty sure you are overestimating the size of the Trump cult, especially the subset that would actually attack something like the Capitol.

Maybe some terrorism like McVeigh and his fertilizer bomb, but a civil war? No.
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Old 27th March 2023, 03:33 PM   #2482
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Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
If Trump is charged over the Stormy Daniels affair there will obviously be lots of polls regarding what people think about the charges.

We will see what our society says, and whether or not I am right. If I am wrong, great!

Polls, for whatever they are worth, would be as divided as the American public is, so those wouldn't establish much.

And it is not clear to me how polls would even be relevant. We have laws which proscribe proper behavior. (At least we did. ) The only poll which matters is the polling of a jury, and even that has its flaws, as a multitude of unpunished race crimes has shown.
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Old 27th March 2023, 03:36 PM   #2483
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Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
Falsified business records is not the same as perjury. They weren't submitted under oath.

Tax records are. And there are others, I'm sure.
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Old 27th March 2023, 03:47 PM   #2484
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Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
No, what I am saying is that we should be delicate before charging a former President with a crime, especially following such a crazy election and with many insane extremists thinking the former POTUS is still POTUS and is being persecuted.

In normal times, I think ex-Presidents are deserving of a little leeway with regards to prosecutions.

Why?

Quote:
Why am I saying all this? I want to prevent a Civil War.

Are you suggesting that we should allow ourselves to be cowed by thugs and hooligans and ignore criminal behavior?

Quote:
But like I said, I have nothing against charging Trump with major crimes, if the evidence is there.

Again, what is the threshold for a "major" crime? In this instance there does not seem to be a lack of evidence.

Is is paying bribe money with the express intent of influencing a national election not "major"?

Congress apparently thought so. I doubt they passed the laws they did because it was a slow day at the Capitol Building and they just needed something to do.

Not least because such laws are among the exceeding rare ones which impact them specifically as well as their backers.

The same holds true for state governments, who seem largely in agreement with Federal laws on this subject.
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Last edited by quadraginta; 27th March 2023 at 03:49 PM.
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Old 27th March 2023, 03:53 PM   #2485
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Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
Falsified business records is not the same as perjury. They weren't submitted under oath.
First of all, I never claimed falsified records were "the same" as perjury. I said it was related to perjury. There is still a requirement for the information to be accurate, and if its used in filing taxes, you usually have to sign something that says "this is accurate".

In other words its not like you're telling some little white lie to someone who probably doesn't care and has no legal remedy to you lying to them.

Secondly, of ALL the things I debunked in your post (your "there are violent crimes" MAGAchud talking point, the "prosecutorial discression" argument, etc.) that was the ONLY think you could talk about?
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Old 27th March 2023, 05:52 PM   #2486
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Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
No, what I am saying is that we should be delicate before charging a former President with a crime, especially following such a crazy election and with many insane extremists thinking the former POTUS is still POTUS and is being persecuted.

In normal times, I think ex-Presidents are deserving of a little leeway with regards to prosecutions.
In normal times, American ex-presidents aren't deranged scofflaws who attempted to seize control of the government.

Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
Why am I saying all this? I want to prevent a Civil War.
After J6, his people know he doesn't have their back, so I don't think you'll see much action from them. Also I think that backing off on indicting Trump would be the worst choice possible. Then he'd really believe he's invincible, and so would everyone else.

Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
But like I said, I have nothing against charging Trump with major crimes, if the evidence is there.
Meh. I'd also like to see him charged with stealing those gifts from the White House.
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Last edited by eerok; 27th March 2023 at 05:55 PM.
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Old 27th March 2023, 06:36 PM   #2487
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
Why?




Are you suggesting that we should allow ourselves to be cowed by thugs and hooligans and ignore criminal behavior?




Again, what is the threshold for a "major" crime? In this instance there does not seem to be a lack of evidence.

Is is paying bribe money with the express intent of influencing a national election not "major"?

Congress apparently thought so. I doubt they passed the laws they did because it was a slow day at the Capitol Building and they just needed something to do.

Not least because such laws are among the exceeding rare ones which impact them specifically as well as their backers.

The same holds true for state governments, who seem largely in agreement with Federal laws on this subject.
I agree with this.
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Old 27th March 2023, 06:40 PM   #2488
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I repeat: the most important thing is to establish is that NO ONE is above the law and most certainly not the President of the United States.
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Old 27th March 2023, 06:43 PM   #2489
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
I repeat: the most important thing is to establish is that NO ONE is above the law and most certainly not the President of the United States.
And this is why I think it's critically important that they take all the time they need to make sure everything is meticulously documented, and all the relevant details put on the record. When setting a precedent as important as this, you don't want to leave any loopholes.
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Old 27th March 2023, 07:10 PM   #2490
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Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
Falsified business records is not the same as perjury. They weren't submitted under oath.
Pretty sure the line before the signature indicates that knowingly submitting false claims is, in fact, perjury.
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Old 27th March 2023, 07:19 PM   #2491
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Old 27th March 2023, 07:40 PM   #2492
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Trump has lackeys sign all his business papers. It's just a matter of time he says he had no input nor knowledge of what lifelong friends are doing.
He will throw the lot in front of his bus to save his own diapered butt.
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Old 27th March 2023, 07:53 PM   #2493
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Originally Posted by 8enotto View Post
Trump has lackeys sign all his business papers.
Except for those he signs himself, with a sharpie.
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Old 27th March 2023, 08:41 PM   #2494
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The way I see it, campaign finance violation isn't a "paperwork crime". The crime is buying an election. The paperwork is just how you're caught.

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Old 27th March 2023, 09:19 PM   #2495
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Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
Why am I saying all this? I want to prevent a Civil War.
It may be worth making a note here that inaction where action is deserved just ends up being encouragement to go further and further, which makes Civil War more and more likely. That we're even in this position is likely the result of the inaction of many.
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Old 28th March 2023, 04:44 AM   #2496
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I shoplifted a chocolate bar. The shop owner wants to press charges, but 20 of my friends have got together and threatened to beat up the shop owner and vandalise the whole shopping street if the case goes ahead, so it should be dropped for the sake of peace? That seems to be what is being argued here, if on a somewhat larger scale.
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Old 28th March 2023, 06:02 AM   #2497
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Either that, or chocolate thieves are just a special separate group of entities slightly above human with a cosmic right to as much chocolate as they could ever want.
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Old 28th March 2023, 06:20 AM   #2498
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There is room enough for the future terrorists and insurrection participants with the J6 morons. None of which will ever be able to vote again.
They are already investigating one bomb threat.
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Old 28th March 2023, 06:24 AM   #2499
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Originally Posted by Parsman View Post
I shoplifted a chocolate bar. The shop owner wants to press charges, but 20 of my friends have got together and threatened to beat up the shop owner and vandalise the whole shopping street if the case goes ahead, so it should be dropped for the sake of peace? That seems to be what is being argued here, if on a somewhat larger scale.
That's half of it, I think. The other half seems to be that you shouldn't be charged for that because you're really a bank robber.
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Old 28th March 2023, 01:05 PM   #2500
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https://www.nationalreview.com/2023/...ution-problem/

"In the Trump case, Bragg would be interpreting and prosecuting a violation of federal campaign laws. In this, he would be acting contrary to the settled view of the U.S. Justice Department, which conducted its own probe and chose not to bring a prosecution. He could decide that hush-money payoffs constitute campaign contributions even if presidents and attorneys general concluded otherwise. The president could not fire Bragg, though he could remove or countermand any U.S. attorney for acting contrary to his decisions on enforcing federal law.

Should Bragg go forward, courts should strike down his unconstitutional backdoor effort to enforce federal campaign law. Imagine if Bragg were to succeed. Not only could Republican district attorneys launch similar investigations into the Biden family, but Republican states could start advancing policies that intrude on federal prerogatives and that are at odds with the priorities of the elected branches of the federal government. For example, Arizona could pass a state misdemeanor law that punishes violations of federal immigration law, which would allow a state to increase border enforcement beyond the Biden administration’s wishes. The Supreme Court struck down exactly such a state law in Arizona v. United States (2012), underscoring again that a state official such as Bragg cannot interfere with federal law enforcement
"


thoughts?
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Old 28th March 2023, 01:29 PM   #2501
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Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
https://www.nationalreview.com/2023/...ution-problem/

"In the Trump case, Bragg would be interpreting and prosecuting a violation of federal campaign laws. In this, he would be acting contrary to the settled view of the U.S. Justice Department, which conducted its own probe and chose not to bring a prosecution. He could decide that hush-money payoffs constitute campaign contributions even if presidents and attorneys general concluded otherwise. The president could not fire Bragg, though he could remove or countermand any U.S. attorney for acting contrary to his decisions on enforcing federal law.

Should Bragg go forward, courts should strike down his unconstitutional backdoor effort to enforce federal campaign law. Imagine if Bragg were to succeed. Not only could Republican district attorneys launch similar investigations into the Biden family, but Republican states could start advancing policies that intrude on federal prerogatives and that are at odds with the priorities of the elected branches of the federal government. For example, Arizona could pass a state misdemeanor law that punishes violations of federal immigration law, which would allow a state to increase border enforcement beyond the Biden administrationís wishes. The Supreme Court struck down exactly such a state law in Arizona v. United States (2012), underscoring again that a state official such as Bragg cannot interfere with federal law enforcement
"


thoughts?
I think the National Review is a far-right media organization, and as such are prone to twisting things to favor Republicans in general and Trump in particular.

I think that's another far right news source you're relying on, while claiming to stick with Yahoo News and CNN.
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Old 28th March 2023, 01:33 PM   #2502
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Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
https://www.nationalreview.com/2023/...ution-problem/

"In the Trump case, Bragg would be interpreting and prosecuting a violation of federal campaign laws. In this, he would be acting contrary to the settled view of the U.S. Justice Department, which conducted its own probe and chose not to bring a prosecution. He could decide that hush-money payoffs constitute campaign contributions even if presidents and attorneys general concluded otherwise. The president could not fire Bragg, though he could remove or countermand any U.S. attorney for acting contrary to his decisions on enforcing federal law.

Should Bragg go forward, courts should strike down his unconstitutional backdoor effort to enforce federal campaign law. Imagine if Bragg were to succeed. Not only could Republican district attorneys launch similar investigations into the Biden family, but Republican states could start advancing policies that intrude on federal prerogatives and that are at odds with the priorities of the elected branches of the federal government. For example, Arizona could pass a state misdemeanor law that punishes violations of federal immigration law, which would allow a state to increase border enforcement beyond the Biden administrationís wishes. The Supreme Court struck down exactly such a state law in Arizona v. United States (2012), underscoring again that a state official such as Bragg cannot interfere with federal law enforcement
"


thoughts?
Yeah that's that dishonest POV where some legislators are trying to interfere with Bragg no matter how many times these legislators hear the FACT the charge Bragg is investigating is lying on tax forms when Trump filed taxes in NY.

CNN's Jake Tapper was one of the talking heads who kept telling James Comer that and Comer did the usual stunt of ignoring the facts and going right back to his talking point.

https://www.cnn.com/videos/politics/...comer-full.cnn

Repeat a lie often enough...
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Old 28th March 2023, 02:06 PM   #2503
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Yeah that's that dishonest POV where some legislators are trying to interfere with Bragg no matter how many times these legislators hear the FACT the charge Bragg is investigating is lying on tax forms when Trump filed taxes in NY.

CNN's Jake Tapper was one of the talking heads who kept telling James Comer that and Comer did the usual stunt of ignoring the facts and going right back to his talking point.

https://www.cnn.com/videos/politics/...comer-full.cnn

Repeat a lie often enough...
Yep...when Tapper said Bragg was investigating STATE crimes, after a few hmms and haws, Comer immediately deflects to the standard GOP talking points about crime:

Quote:
"Even at that, look, let's just be honest here. This is about politics, this a a presidential candidate. When you look at what we believe the role of the Manhattan DA should be is to fight crime. That's one of the biggest issues we saw in the midterm elections last November. Voters overwhelmingly rejected many Democrat candidates because of the crime issue. We have a crime issue in many of our cities and we're trying to do something about that in the House of Representatives. And one of the reasons we believe we have high crime rates in many parts of America is because we have prosecutors soft on crime."
He goes on to talk about tax dollars being better spent on prosecution local criminals.

According to Comer, the crime Trump committed just isn't as important as the local crimes the DA should be prosecuting. When Comer said "Look, let's just be honest here," I fully expected him to explode into flames.
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Old 28th March 2023, 03:06 PM   #2504
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Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
https://www.nationalreview.com/2023/...ution-problem/

"In the Trump case, Bragg would be interpreting and prosecuting a violation of federal campaign laws. In this, he would be acting contrary to the settled view of the U.S. Justice Department, which conducted its own probe and chose not to bring a prosecution. He could decide that hush-money payoffs constitute campaign contributions even if presidents and attorneys general concluded otherwise. The president could not fire Bragg, though he could remove or countermand any U.S. attorney for acting contrary to his decisions on enforcing federal law.

Should Bragg go forward, courts should strike down his unconstitutional backdoor effort to enforce federal campaign law. Imagine if Bragg were to succeed. Not only could Republican district attorneys launch similar investigations into the Biden family, but Republican states could start advancing policies that intrude on federal prerogatives and that are at odds with the priorities of the elected branches of the federal government. For example, Arizona could pass a state misdemeanor law that punishes violations of federal immigration law, which would allow a state to increase border enforcement beyond the Biden administrationís wishes. The Supreme Court struck down exactly such a state law in Arizona v. United States (2012), underscoring again that a state official such as Bragg cannot interfere with federal law enforcement
"


thoughts?
Natonal review contiues it;s policy of tsk tsk ing at Trump's conduct, but coming around to supporting and defending him in the end.
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Old 28th March 2023, 03:10 PM   #2505
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Yep...when Tapper said Bragg was investigating STATE crimes, after a few hmms and haws, Comer immediately deflects to the standard GOP talking points about crime:



He goes on to talk about tax dollars being better spent on prosecution local criminals.

According to Comer, the crime Trump committed just isn't as important as the local crimes the DA should be prosecuting. When Comer said "Look, let's just be honest here," I fully expected him to explode into flames.
Funny, what I expected each time Comer started with "look" was for the next word to be "squirrel!"
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Old 28th March 2023, 03:45 PM   #2506
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Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
https://www.nationalreview.com/2023/...ution-problem/

"In the Trump case, Bragg would be interpreting and prosecuting a violation of federal campaign laws."
Ummm... no he wouldn't. He will likely be prosecuting a state level law of falsifying financial records and/or income tax evasion. (There may be a reference to the federal campaign laws as a REASON Trump falsified records, but that won't be the crime Bragg is prosecuting.)

If an article gets such a basic fact wrong, you can probably assume they don't know what they are talking about.
Quote:
In this, he would be acting contrary to the settled view of the U.S. Justice Department, which conducted its own probe and chose not to bring a prosecution.
Another questionable argument by an article that was already on shakey ground.

The DoJ has a policy of not indicting a sitting president. And even if the DoJ was willing to indict a sitting president, given the fact that the DoJ was headed by a Trump sycophant any rejection of the charge likely had more to do with the political leanings of the Attorney General than on the merits of the case.
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Old 28th March 2023, 05:22 PM   #2507
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Originally Posted by Carlotta View Post
Funny, what I expected each time Comer started with "look" was for the next word to be "squirrel!"
That was the intended effect!
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Old 28th March 2023, 05:52 PM   #2508
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I noted how many times Comer said, "This is a presidential candidate," as though the edict not to indict a president while he is in office should now be extended to candidates for president. As ABC News quoted from the CNN interview:
Quote:
Pushed by CNN anchor Jake Tapper, who said Bragg is investigating potential violations of state and not federal crimes, Comer said, "This is about politics. This is a presidential candidate." ABC News link
It feels like Comer is merely adopting trump's newest line of attack:
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Old 28th March 2023, 07:22 PM   #2509
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Originally Posted by newyorkguy View Post
I noted how many times Comer said, "This is a presidential candidate," as though the edict not to indict a president while he is in office should now be extended to candidates for president. As ABC News quoted from the CNN interview:

It feels like Comer is merely adopting trump's newest line of attack:
Oh, it was very clear from the get go, never mind he keeps bleating about it, Trump declared last year with at least the idea if not the belief if not the confidence he can bullpoop his base that being a candidate would shield him from the law.

It's like kids chasing each other around the house. They can evade capture if they touch the potted palm and yell, "Safe!"
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Old 28th March 2023, 07:26 PM   #2510
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Originally Posted by newyorkguy View Post
I noted how many times Comer said, "This is a presidential candidate," as though the edict not to indict a president while he is in office should now be extended to candidates for president. As ABC News quoted from the CNN interview:

It feels like Comer is merely adopting trump's newest line of attack:
Not just Comer. It's the 'go to' for all of them. They think it's the new kevlar.
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Old 28th March 2023, 07:40 PM   #2511
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Not just Comer. It's the 'go to' for all of them. They think it's the new kevlar.
They WHAT??!
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Old 29th March 2023, 06:34 AM   #2512
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Some brainless MAGA ******* pulled a knife on a couple and their children out the courthouse in Manhattan.

MAGA Diehard Waves Knife at Family Outside NYC Courthouse: Officials

Quote:
A Trump supporter was arrested outside the Manhattan criminal courthouse on Tuesday after she pulled a knife out and threatened a woman who had small children with her, officials said. The 39-year-old protester was bearing a sign that read “I STAND WITH TRUMP DO YOU?” when she and two pedestrians passing by got into a heated verbal exchange, the exact nature of which was not immediately clear. Three witnesses told Politico that the passersby were a man and a woman with two children in strollers. As the argument escalated, the protester yanked a knife from her hip and began waving it at the group, a court spokesperson said. Court officers interceded, guns drawn, and ordered the protester to drop the knife, which she did. She was then taken into custody without incident. The incident comes as New York City braces for a looming indictment of the former president in a hush-money case, with a grand jury vote on the matter reportedly not expected until next week at the earliest.
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Old 29th March 2023, 01:03 PM   #2513
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This is really going to frustrate a lot of people.

From: ABC News
The Manhattan grand jury investigating hush money paid on Donald Trump’s behalf is scheduled to consider other matters next week before taking a previously scheduled two-week hiatus...That means a vote on whether or not to indict the former president likely wouldn't come until late April at the earliest.

I can appreciate that they would want to make sure they take the time to build a solid case. But given the way Bragg torpedoed the potential criminal fraud case against Trump, its probably natural to worry he might be getting cold feet over this case as well.
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Old 29th March 2023, 04:46 PM   #2514
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Originally Posted by Carlotta View Post
Funny, what I expected each time Comer started with "look" was for the next word to be "squirrel!"
Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
... When Comer said "Look, let's just be honest here," I fully expected him to explode into flames.



Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
...
If an article gets such a basic fact wrong, you can probably assume they don't know what they are talking about....
Pretty sure they know exactly what they are doing.


Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
This is really going to frustrate a lot of people.

From: ABC News
The Manhattan grand jury investigating hush money paid on Donald Trumpís behalf is scheduled to consider other matters next week before taking a previously scheduled two-week hiatus...That means a vote on whether or not to indict the former president likely wouldn't come until late April at the earliest.

I can appreciate that they would want to make sure they take the time to build a solid case. But given the way Bragg torpedoed the potential criminal fraud case against Trump, its probably natural to worry he might be getting cold feet over this case as well.
Might be they are coordinating, Georgia and Garland. This is just speculating but it is just possible they don't want to lead with the weaker prosecution. If Trump were to win that might do a wee bit of damage to the next 2 prosecutions. And Trump might stall and stall in NY then say he can't appear in Georgia or DC because he's tied up in court or his attorney is.

We should also consider it was the Grifter in Orange who said the NY indictment was going to happen last week. Bragg never said that.
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Old 30th March 2023, 07:03 AM   #2515
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Looks like Bragg has decided his low-level charges are just not fit this level of criminal, and we should wait for more serious charges to hopefully appear from the feds or Georgia.
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Old 30th March 2023, 09:22 AM   #2516
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Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
Looks like Bragg has decided his low-level charges are just not fit this level of criminal, and we should wait for more serious charges to hopefully appear from the feds or Georgia.
Is this just an assumption or do you have a link to back this 'looks like' up?
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Old 30th March 2023, 09:29 AM   #2517
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Originally Posted by Mike! View Post
Is this just an assumption or do you have a link to back this 'looks like' up?

I guess it's possible he will decide to press charges in 2 months.
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Old 30th March 2023, 11:05 AM   #2518
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Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
I guess it's possible he will decide to press charges in 2 months.
Or two weeks.

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Old 30th March 2023, 11:13 AM   #2519
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Originally Posted by MRC_Hans View Post
Or two weeks.

Hans
Nope, they are on break through the end of April.
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Old 30th March 2023, 11:17 AM   #2520
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Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
Quote:
Or two weeks.
Nope, they are on break through the end of April.
I think you missed the joke....

Donald Trump has a habit of saying he would do things "in two weeks". Release his health care plan? He'll do it "in two weeks". Release his taxes? He'll do it "in two weeks". (Of course those things never end up happening.)

So the "two weeks" is sort of a running joke.
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