Human Rights Watch report accuses Israel of crimes against humanity, apartheid. - Page 2

ponderingturtle · 12th May 2021, 03:08 AM

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

So dead children can't be the result of someone's political agenda?

Nits make lice as they say.

TurkeysGhost · 12th May 2021, 05:29 AM

Israel has bombed the tallest building in the Gaza strip, a 12 story apartment building. 160 families are now homeless.

Belz... · 12th May 2021, 05:42 AM

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey

Israel has bombed the tallest building in the Gaza strip, a 12 story apartment building. 160 families are now homeless.

Well, now they can't shoot rockets into town from that building!

TurkeysGhost · 12th May 2021, 07:46 AM

Quote:

The IDF turned the bombing of an apartment complex in Gaza into a meme.

https://twitter.com/bfishbfish/statu...87736939094021

The meme, posted on the IDF's official Instagram account, is a "before and after" format gloating about the bombing of a residential high rise.

Belz... · 12th May 2021, 08:26 AM

Huh.

TurkeysGhost · 12th May 2021, 01:12 PM

Israeli lynch mob pull a man suspected of being Arab out of his car and viciously beat him in the street.

Spoiler tagged because the footage is grotesque.

This attack took place in Bat Yam, well within Israel proper and not within occupied Palestine. While conversation is often focused on Israeli ethnic cleansing within Gaza and other Palestine territory, it's important to remember that Israel, even outside the occupation zones, is an apartheid states where Arabs are second class citizens.

Wildy · 15th May 2021, 06:52 PM

Originally Posted by Belz...

That's the part I don't understand. Israelis are uniquely experienced in exactly this sort of thing. You'd think they'd squirm at the very idea of committing such a thing.

True, but they also have a book that says that they're supposed to do this sort of thing there.

Skeptic Ginger · 15th May 2021, 10:10 PM

The crowd looks like a bunch of skin heads, I imagine both Bibi and Dump stoked the racism in Israel. It's sad.

Skeptic Ginger · 16th May 2021, 06:45 PM

And speaking of Bibi being behind this: Analysis: Israel riots between Jews and Arabs hand Netanyahu a political lifeline

Sad.

lionking · 16th May 2021, 08:20 PM

Originally Posted by Meadmaker

I think that most nation states are fairly confident these days that the neighboring nation states are not going to mount an invasion that would cause their nation state to be erased from the map.

I think Israel is fairly confident that there are, in fact, nation states, and factions within nation states, that would very much like to mount an invasion that would cause the nation state of Israel to be erased from the map.

I think that makes a lot of difference.

Correct, and by the tone of some comments here, some would welcome the eradication of Israel.

Hamas would happily launch an eradication level attack on Israel, but it doesn’t have the resources. All it can do is rain rockets on Israel and suffer the consequences.

Michel H · 17th May 2021, 03:03 AM

Originally Posted by lionking

Correct, and by the tone of some comments here, some would welcome the eradication of Israel.

Hamas would happily launch an eradication level attack on Israel, but it doesn’t have the resources. All it can do is rain rockets on Israel and suffer the consequences.

I don't think the world would tolerate an eradication level attack on Israel, designed to erase it from the map.

As a member state of the United Nations, Israel is entitled to some protection (like Kuwait in 1990).

I believe Israel should end the illegal occupations of the West Bank and East Jerusalem, and lift the Gaza blockade, and this would take care of many of its current worries.

In my opinion, the U.S. should never support a notorious invader and international law violator like Israel, all U.S. aid should be stopped until Israel complies with law (and Security Council resolutions, particularly resolution 242).

lionking · 17th May 2021, 03:08 AM

Originally Posted by Michel H

I don't think the world would tolerate an eradication level attack on Israel, designed to erase it from the map.

As a member state of the United Nations, Israel is entitled to some protection (like Kuwait in 1990).

I believe Israel should end the illegal occupations of the West Bank and East Jerusalem, and lift the Gaza blockade, and this would take care of many of its current worries.

In my opinion, he U.S. should never support a notorious invader and international law violator like Israel, all U.S. aid should be stopped until Israel complies with law (and Security Council resolutions, particularly resolution 242).

And Hamas’ official policy of the destruction of Israel?

How would your nation react to a neighbouring country firing rockets at yours? Shrug your shoulders and say “well they have grievances”? If you say yes, I won’t believe you.

Michel H · 17th May 2021, 03:36 AM

Originally Posted by lionking

And Hamas’ official policy of the destruction of Israel?

As you may know, Hamas is somewhat ambiguous with respect to Israel's right to exist, see this 2017 article published by the Guardian: https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...l-1967-borders.

Anyway, Hamas is not a very powerful force on the world stage, and Hamas may need to correct itself and improve too.

Quote:

How would your nation react to a neighbouring country firing rockets at yours? Shrug your shoulders and say “well they have grievances”? If you say yes, I won’t believe you.

If my country (Belgium) was in such a situation, I might write to the Prime Minister and tell him: "Look, Mr. Prime Minister, why don't you first stop militarily occupying our neighbors Luxembourg and the Netherlands?"

If the rocket firing does go on, even after the necessary evacuations, then I would say my country has a right to fight back.

lionking · 17th May 2021, 03:40 AM

Originally Posted by Michel H

As you may know, Hamas is somewhat ambiguous with respect to Israel's right to exist, see this 2017 article published by the Guardian: https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...l-1967-borders.

Anyway, Hamas is not a very powerful force on the world stage, and Hamas may need to correct itself and improve too.

If my country (Belgium) was in such a situation, I might write to the Prime Minister and tell him: "Look, Mr. Prime Minister, why don't you first stop militarily occupying our neighbors Luxembourg and the Netherlands?"

If the rocket firing does go on even after the necessary evacuations, then I would say my country has a right to fight back.

How many chances does it need?

And, sorry, I don’t think you or your nation would simply write letters without taking action against those firing rockets at you.

I Am The Scum · 17th May 2021, 06:57 AM

Originally Posted by Belz...

Well, now they can't shoot rockets into town from that building!

Reminds me of the Patton quote: "No dumb bastard ever won a war by going out and dying for his country. He won it by making some other dumb bastard walk across the street so he can continue shooting you."

Belz... · 17th May 2021, 07:19 AM

Originally Posted by lionking

Correct, and by the tone of some comments here, some would welcome the eradication of Israel.

Ah, there it is. I called it.

MarkCorrigan · 17th May 2021, 07:27 AM

Originally Posted by Michel H

As you may know, Hamas is somewhat ambiguous with respect to Israel's right to exist, see this 2017 article published by the Guardian: https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...l-1967-borders..

No, it isn't. Hamas wants to wipe out Israel. Israel and Palestine could possibly co-exist. Israel and Hamas controlled Palestine cannot.

Originally Posted by Michel H

Anyway, Hamas is not a very powerful force on the world stage,

They are the democratically elected government of the Palestinian people. Any time there is support for Palestine there is support for Hamas.

Originally Posted by Michel H

and Hamas may need to correct itself and improve too.

No, Hamas needs to be eradicated. Note that I am not saying Palestine does, nor the Palestinian people. Just Hamas.

Originally Posted by Michel H

If my country (Belgium) was in such a situation, I might write to the Prime Minister and tell him: "Look, Mr. Prime Minister, why don't you first stop militarily occupying our neighbors Luxembourg and the Netherlands?"

While I agree with the idea that Israel really, REALLY needs to stop settlement building in the contested areas, you do realise why the military occupation exists, right? It isn't because Israel just decided one day to occupy the territory.

Originally Posted by Michel H

If the rocket firing does go on, even after the necessary evacuations, then I would say my country has a right to fight back.

Which it would. The rocket firing was going on before the occupation, and would continue after the occupation was ended.

TurkeysGhost · 17th May 2021, 07:28 AM

Quote:

Israeli forces bombed a building that housed The Associated Press and Al Jazeera in Gaza City on Saturday, the news outlets reported, amid the latest round of air strikes in the area.

The AP reported that the entire 12-story building collapsed. Al Jazeera shared a 50-second clip on Twitter of the building crumbling after it had been hit.

https://thehill.com/homenews/media/5...ld-be-targeted

IDF is now targeting journalists in Gaza.

Quote:

Mostefa Souag, acting director-general of Al-Jazeera Media Network, called the strike a “war crime” and a “clear act” to stop journalists from reporting on the conflict. Kuwait state television also had office space in the now-collapsed Gaza City building.

...

Pruitt, the AP’s CEO, said the news agency had been in the building for 15 years and “we have had no indication Hamas was in the building or active in the building.”

https://apnews.com/article/israel-mi...be7db59b6ecbf4

lionking · 17th May 2021, 07:33 AM

Originally Posted by Belz...

Ah, there it is. I called it.

Called ******* what?

Hamas wants Israel destroyed, do you agree? There are Hamas cheerleaders in this and similar threads.

Belz... · 17th May 2021, 07:43 AM

Originally Posted by lionking

Called ******* what?

Hamas wants Israel destroyed, do you agree? There are Hamas cheerleaders in this and similar threads.

I'm sure you think there are.

JoeMorgue · 17th May 2021, 07:47 AM

You know what... nobody gets it. Just wall off the entire area, kick everybody out, and flood it with seawater. I don't care anymore. I just don't care.

Meadmaker · 17th May 2021, 07:54 AM

Originally Posted by Michel H

I believe Israel should end the illegal occupations of the West Bank and East Jerusalem, and lift the Gaza blockade, and this would take care of many of its current worries.

You think? What do you suppose would actually happen if they did that? That's meant as a serious question.

Let's imagine the two state solution. A nation of Palestine gets created. It has control of all the "occupied territy". Let's even throw in the Temple Mount and Old City of Jerusalem. (Why Israel would agree to that, I don't know, but let's pretend that it could happen.)

Do you think there would be peace and justice after that? Israel and the new nation of Palestine are not attacked? Arabs living in Israel would be full and equal citizens? Jew living in Palestine would be full and equal citizens? Nobody kills anybody over there?

Do you think that's a realistic possibility?

JoeMorgue · 17th May 2021, 07:58 AM

Raise your hand if you honestly there is a thing you could "give" either/both sides that would stop that?

If your hand is raised slap yourself with it.

This conflict is self-feeding.

Belz... · 17th May 2021, 08:03 AM

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue

Raise your hand if you honestly there is a thing you could "give" either/both sides that would stop that?

The infinity gauntlet?

TurkeysGhost · 17th May 2021, 08:05 AM

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue

You know what... nobody gets it. Just wall off the entire area, kick everybody out, and flood it with seawater. I don't care anymore. I just don't care.

The whole "the issue is too complex" and both siderism excuses for Israel's campaign of ethnic cleansing is getting a bit threadbare.

This isn't an issue of two belligerents fighting over who's long dead ancestors have rights to the land, this is an issue of a powerful nation violently dispossessing a weaker one of their lands in a campaign to ethnically cleanse the area.

Israel has been fighting a decades long campaign of aggression against the Palestinian people to forcibly annex their lands. Any resistance to this is met with overwhelming force, largely backed by the USA. Efforts to sanction or otherwise stop Israel internationally have also been stymied primarily by the USA.

The report from HRW in the OP lays it out quite clearly. Simply by population count, Israel cannot be a Jewish state unless it practices apartheid. Arabs make up about 50% of the population of Israel if you include the populations that live in occupied territory.

Quote:

Israeli policy has sought to engineer and maximize the number of Jews, as well as the land available to them, in Israel and the portions of the OPT coveted by the Israeli government for Jewish settlement. At the same time, by restricting the residency rights of Palestinians, Israeli policy seeks to minimize the number of Palestinians and the land available to them in those areas. The level of repression is most severe in the OPT, although often less severe aspects of similar policies can be found within Israel.

https://www.hrw.org/report/2021/04/2...nd-persecution

JoeMorgue · 17th May 2021, 08:08 AM

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey

This isn't an issue of two belligerents fighting over who's long dead ancestors have rights to the land, this is an issue of a powerful nation violently dispossessing a weaker one of their lands in a campaign to ethnically cleanse the area.

Yeah if actually look at it as Israel V Palestine instead of Israel V V Palestine (as a proxy for the entire Middle East.)

That's why I hate this topic. You can zoom in and out as far as you want and be right depending on where you stop.

If you look at it as Israel V Palestine than Israel is the.. overdog (whatever the opposite of underdog is).

If you look at it as Israel V the Entire Middle East than Israel is not.

If you look at it as Israel as a proxy nation for the US V... and so and so on mix and match until you get the narrative you want.

And again this isn't a movie. The scrappy underdog isn't the correct one by default. In the real world the less powerful side can still be the wrong one.

TurkeysGhost · 17th May 2021, 08:13 AM

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue

Yeah if actually look at it as Israel V Palestine instead of Israel V V Palestine (as a proxy for the entire Middle East.)

That's why I hate this topic. You can zoom in and out as far as you want and be right depending on where you stop.

If you look at it as Israel V Palestine than Israel is the stronger.

If you look at it as Israel V the Entire Middle East than Israel is not.

If you look at it as Israel as a proxy nation for the US V... and so and so on mix and match until you get the narrative you want.

And again this isn't a movie. The scrappy underdog isn't the correct one by default. In the real world the less powerful side can still be the wrong one.

How wide of a lens do you have to use to make it morally acceptable for a population of people to live under permanent military rule?

The Palestinians are neither granted full citizenship in Israel nor sovereignty to rule themselves. They are permanent subjects of occupation as Israel forcibly removes them from their homes and puts them into the open-air prison that is the Gaza strip.

You don't have to pretend that Hamas or all Palestinians are morally correct in order to recognize what is happening to the Palestinian people is a crime against humanity.

JoeMorgue · 17th May 2021, 08:20 AM

Again I stand by my point. If you took either side, gave them what they claim they want, and expected the conflict to end you'd be a massive idiot.

When practicality is this far away from a solution, arguing morality seems almost quaint.

TurkeysGhost · 17th May 2021, 08:23 AM

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue

Again I stand by my point. If you took either side, gave them what they claim they want, and expected the conflict to end you'd be a massive idiot.

When practicality is this far away from a solution, arguing morality seems almost quaint.

There's probably a better solution between unachievable peaceful coexistence and turning a blind eye to ethnic cleansing.

The USA's unconditional support of Israel plays a large role in their belligerent stance.

Garrison · 17th May 2021, 08:30 AM

Yes Hamas is terrible, but none of the previous exchanges of rockets and airstrikes has undermined them or weakened their grip, what is going to make this one different? What in short is Israel's plan to find some 'moderate' Palestinian leadership to negotiate with? Or are they content to continue the cycle of violence until the whole West Bank is full of two-thirds empty Israeli settlements?

Belz... · 17th May 2021, 08:41 AM

Originally Posted by Garrison

Yes Hamas is terrible, but none of the previous exchanges of rockets and airstrikes has undermined them or weakened their grip, what is going to make this one different? What in short is Israel's plan to find some 'moderate' Palestinian leadership to negotiate with? Or are they content to continue the cycle of violence until the whole West Bank is full of two-thirds empty Israeli settlements?

I don't think they want a moderate Palestiain leadership to negociate with.

ponderingturtle · 17th May 2021, 08:45 AM

Originally Posted by Meadmaker

You think? What do you suppose would actually happen if they did that? That's meant as a serious question.

Let's imagine the two state solution. A nation of Palestine gets created. It has control of all the "occupied territy". Let's even throw in the Temple Mount and Old City of Jerusalem. (Why Israel would agree to that, I don't know, but let's pretend that it could happen.)

Do you think there would be peace and justice after that? Israel and the new nation of Palestine are not attacked? Arabs living in Israel would be full and equal citizens? Jew living in Palestine would be full and equal citizens? Nobody kills anybody over there?

Do you think that's a realistic possibility?

You are right ethnic cleansing is really the only realistic solution. Look at how well it is going in Myanmar for example.

ponderingturtle · 17th May 2021, 08:47 AM

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey

There's probably a better solution between unachievable peaceful coexistence and turning a blind eye to ethnic cleansing.

The USA's unconditional support of Israel plays a large role in their belligerent stance.

We just need to stop viewing ethnic cleansing as a bad thing.

ponderingturtle · 17th May 2021, 08:49 AM

Originally Posted by Belz...

I don't think they want a moderate Palestiain leadership to negociate with.

It would make it harder to steal their land for one. Much more useful this way.

Michel H · 17th May 2021, 09:34 AM

Originally Posted by Meadmaker

You think? What do you suppose would actually happen if they did that? That's meant as a serious question.

Let's imagine the two state solution. A nation of Palestine gets created. It has control of all the "occupied territy". Let's even throw in the Temple Mount and Old City of Jerusalem. (Why Israel would agree to that, I don't know, but let's pretend that it could happen.)

Do you think there would be peace and justice after that? Israel and the new nation of Palestine are not attacked? Arabs living in Israel would be full and equal citizens? Jew living in Palestine would be full and equal citizens? Nobody kills anybody over there?

Do you think that's a realistic possibility?

Yes, of course it's a realistic possibility, although it would not lead to a perfectly egalitarian society (but probably to a great improvement in relations between Jews and Arabs).

Israel relies on massive military support by the United States to crush any resistance, and continue its policies of occupation, blockade, and settlement expansion (though the current Biden administration is probably more moderate and reasonable than ... hum ... the previous one).

The solution of this Middle East conflict is surprisingly simple, in view of how complicated it is often (falsely) described. Just end the illegal occupations, that's it. This would of course be a Copernican Revolution in Israeli politics.

With the new war in Israel and Palestine, we are witnessing the absurdity, for many years, of U.S. policy in the region: provide massive support for the side which is oppressing and invading the other side (and this is not even the end of this matter: on might also add economic persecution of Iran and Syria, invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan and so on).

lomiller · 17th May 2021, 10:17 AM

Originally Posted by Garrison

What in short is Israel's plan to find some 'moderate' Palestinian leadership to negotiate with? Or are they content to continue the cycle of violence until the whole West Bank is full of two-thirds empty Israeli settlements?

Moderates willing to negotiate with Israel would never win an election and would be targeted and eliminated by other more extreme factions.

lomiller · 17th May 2021, 10:24 AM

Originally Posted by Michel H

The solution of this Middle East conflict is surprisingly simple, in view of how complicated it is often (falsely) described. Just end the illegal occupations, that's it. This would of course be a Copernican Revolution in Israeli politics.

This has been tried multiple times. Every time the Palestinians have received a modicum of self rule they use it to attack Israel, they then lose the ensuing conflict and end up occupied again.

I think Israel does need to return to supporting a 2 state solution, but that alone isn't enough. The Palestinians need to accept such a solution as well, and unlike Israel they have never show an inclination to do so.

Meadmaker · 17th May 2021, 10:55 AM

Originally Posted by Michel H

Yes, of course it's a realistic possibility, ...
The solution of this Middle East conflict is surprisingly simple, in view of how complicated it is often (falsely) described. Just end the illegal occupations, that's it. This would of course be a Copernican Revolution in Israeli politics.

I just find this to be an incredibly naive statement.

I wish you were right. In a sane world, it would be that simple, because people would care about having a job and being able to buy food and meet the opposite sex (or the same sex, if you prefer) instead of whose ancestors were killed where, and whether you say God or Adonnai or Allah and what He told whoever as recorded in some book.

But I can't look at your surprisingly simple solution and see how it fits with the wars of 1948, 1956, 1967, or 1973, with Scud missiles in Tel Aviv in 1991, with various militias and pseudogovernments in Lebanon, with pledges to destroy Israel no matter how long it takes from militias, from Arab states, from Iran.

ponderingturtle · 17th May 2021, 11:26 AM

Originally Posted by lomiller

This has been tried multiple times. Every time the Palestinians have received a modicum of self rule they use it to attack Israel, they then lose the ensuing conflict and end up occupied again.

I think Israel does need to return to supporting a 2 state solution, but that alone isn't enough. The Palestinians need to accept such a solution as well, and unlike Israel they have never show an inclination to do so.

Please try something possible, Israel can no more return to supporting a 2 state solution than the Palestinians are likely to not attack Israel. They are far to dependent on the settlements for housing. You need a politically viable solution and the 2 state one is dead in Israel.

Lukraak_Sisser · 17th May 2021, 11:34 AM

I recall a very old interview with Golda Meir, who defended the actions of Israel by reminiscing how one of her first memories was a pogrom against the Jewish quarter and how these actions will make sure this never would happen to Jews again if they had their safe nation.

I remember thinking that now children in the occupied sections will grow up whose first memories are Israeli raids against their village to clear it for settlers or in a revenge strike.

Hate breeds hate, and both sides have been breeding it for 4 generations now.

There will never be a solution. Just more violence.

12th May 2021, 03:08 AM	#41
ponderingturtle Orthogonal Vector Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 53,086	Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger So dead children can't be the result of someone's political agenda? Nits make lice as they say.
	__________________ Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no poofing in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin

12th May 2021, 05:29 AM	#42
TurkeysGhost Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2018 Posts: 31,750	Israel has bombed the tallest building in the Gaza strip, a 12 story apartment building. 160 families are now homeless.
	__________________ Previously known as SuburbanTurkey Last edited by TurkeysGhost; 12th May 2021 at 05:31 AM.

12th May 2021, 05:42 AM	#43
Belz... Fiend God Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: In a post-fact world Posts: 96,875	Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey Israel has bombed the tallest building in the Gaza strip, a 12 story apartment building. 160 families are now homeless. Well, now they can't shoot rockets into town from that building!
	__________________ Master of the Shining Darkness "My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward

12th May 2021, 07:46 AM	#44
TurkeysGhost Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2018 Posts: 31,750	Quote: The IDF turned the bombing of an apartment complex in Gaza into a meme. https://twitter.com/bfishbfish/statu...87736939094021 The meme, posted on the IDF's official Instagram account, is a "before and after" format gloating about the bombing of a residential high rise.
	__________________ Previously known as SuburbanTurkey

12th May 2021, 08:26 AM	#45
Belz... Fiend God Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: In a post-fact world Posts: 96,875	Huh.
	__________________ Master of the Shining Darkness "My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward

12th May 2021, 01:12 PM	#46
TurkeysGhost Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2018 Posts: 31,750	Israeli lynch mob pull a man suspected of being Arab out of his car and viciously beat him in the street. https://twitter.com/ragipsoylu/statu...67115505356808 Spoiler tagged because the footage is grotesque. This attack took place in Bat Yam, well within Israel proper and not within occupied Palestine. While conversation is often focused on Israeli ethnic cleansing within Gaza and other Palestine territory, it's important to remember that Israel, even outside the occupation zones, is an apartheid states where Arabs are second class citizens.
	__________________ Previously known as SuburbanTurkey Last edited by TurkeysGhost; 12th May 2021 at 01:14 PM.

15th May 2021, 06:52 PM	#47
Wildy Adelaidean Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Australia Posts: 11,718	Originally Posted by Belz... That's the part I don't understand. Israelis are uniquely experienced in exactly this sort of thing. You'd think they'd squirm at the very idea of committing such a thing. True, but they also have a book that says that they're supposed to do this sort of thing there.
	__________________

15th May 2021, 10:10 PM	#48
Skeptic Ginger Nasty Woman Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 94,011	The crowd looks like a bunch of skin heads, I imagine both Bibi and Dump stoked the racism in Israel. It's sad.

16th May 2021, 06:45 PM	#49
Skeptic Ginger Nasty Woman Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 94,011	And speaking of Bibi being behind this: Analysis: Israel riots between Jews and Arabs hand Netanyahu a political lifeline Sad.

16th May 2021, 08:20 PM	#50
lionking In the Peanut Gallery Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Melbourne Posts: 53,497	Originally Posted by Meadmaker I think that most nation states are fairly confident these days that the neighboring nation states are not going to mount an invasion that would cause their nation state to be erased from the map. I think Israel is fairly confident that there are, in fact, nation states, and factions within nation states, that would very much like to mount an invasion that would cause the nation state of Israel to be erased from the map. I think that makes a lot of difference. Correct, and by the tone of some comments here, some would welcome the eradication of Israel. Hamas would happily launch an eradication level attack on Israel, but it doesn’t have the resources. All it can do is rain rockets on Israel and suffer the consequences.
	__________________ A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject. Sir Winston Churchill

17th May 2021, 03:03 AM	#51
Michel H Suspended Join Date: May 2012 Location: Belgium Posts: 3,368	Originally Posted by lionking Correct, and by the tone of some comments here, some would welcome the eradication of Israel. Hamas would happily launch an eradication level attack on Israel, but it doesn’t have the resources. All it can do is rain rockets on Israel and suffer the consequences. I don't think the world would tolerate an eradication level attack on Israel, designed to erase it from the map. As a member state of the United Nations, Israel is entitled to some protection (like Kuwait in 1990). I believe Israel should end the illegal occupations of the West Bank and East Jerusalem, and lift the Gaza blockade, and this would take care of many of its current worries. In my opinion, the U.S. should never support a notorious invader and international law violator like Israel, all U.S. aid should be stopped until Israel complies with law (and Security Council resolutions, particularly resolution 242).
	Last edited by Michel H; 17th May 2021 at 03:41 AM.

17th May 2021, 03:08 AM	#52
lionking In the Peanut Gallery Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Melbourne Posts: 53,497	Originally Posted by Michel H I don't think the world would tolerate an eradication level attack on Israel, designed to erase it from the map. As a member state of the United Nations, Israel is entitled to some protection (like Kuwait in 1990). I believe Israel should end the illegal occupations of the West Bank and East Jerusalem, and lift the Gaza blockade, and this would take care of many of its current worries. In my opinion, he U.S. should never support a notorious invader and international law violator like Israel, all U.S. aid should be stopped until Israel complies with law (and Security Council resolutions, particularly resolution 242). And Hamas’ official policy of the destruction of Israel? How would your nation react to a neighbouring country firing rockets at yours? Shrug your shoulders and say “well they have grievances”? If you say yes, I won’t believe you.
	__________________ A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject. Sir Winston Churchill

17th May 2021, 03:36 AM	#53
Michel H Suspended Join Date: May 2012 Location: Belgium Posts: 3,368	Originally Posted by lionking And Hamas’ official policy of the destruction of Israel? As you may know, Hamas is somewhat ambiguous with respect to Israel's right to exist, see this 2017 article published by the Guardian: https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...l-1967-borders. Anyway, Hamas is not a very powerful force on the world stage, and Hamas may need to correct itself and improve too. Quote: How would your nation react to a neighbouring country firing rockets at yours? Shrug your shoulders and say “well they have grievances”? If you say yes, I won’t believe you. If my country (Belgium) was in such a situation, I might write to the Prime Minister and tell him: "Look, Mr. Prime Minister, why don't you first stop militarily occupying our neighbors Luxembourg and the Netherlands?" If the rocket firing does go on, even after the necessary evacuations, then I would say my country has a right to fight back.
	Last edited by Michel H; 17th May 2021 at 03:42 AM.

17th May 2021, 03:40 AM	#54
lionking In the Peanut Gallery Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Melbourne Posts: 53,497	Originally Posted by Michel H As you may know, Hamas is somewhat ambiguous with respect to Israel's right to exist, see this 2017 article published by the Guardian: https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...l-1967-borders. Anyway, Hamas is not a very powerful force on the world stage, and Hamas may need to correct itself and improve too. If my country (Belgium) was in such a situation, I might write to the Prime Minister and tell him: "Look, Mr. Prime Minister, why don't you first stop militarily occupying our neighbors Luxembourg and the Netherlands?" If the rocket firing does go on even after the necessary evacuations, then I would say my country has a right to fight back. How many chances does it need? And, sorry, I don’t think you or your nation would simply write letters without taking action against those firing rockets at you.
	__________________ A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject. Sir Winston Churchill

17th May 2021, 06:57 AM	#55
I Am The Scum Philosopher Join Date: Mar 2010 Posts: 5,023	Originally Posted by Belz... Well, now they can't shoot rockets into town from that building! Reminds me of the Patton quote: "No dumb bastard ever won a war by going out and dying for his country. He won it by making some other dumb bastard walk across the street so he can continue shooting you."

17th May 2021, 07:19 AM	#56
Belz... Fiend God Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: In a post-fact world Posts: 96,875	Originally Posted by lionking Correct, and by the tone of some comments here, some would welcome the eradication of Israel. Ah, there it is. I called it.
	__________________ Master of the Shining Darkness "My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward

17th May 2021, 07:27 AM	#57
MarkCorrigan ¡No pasarán! Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Слава Україні Posts: 11,579	Originally Posted by Michel H As you may know, Hamas is somewhat ambiguous with respect to Israel's right to exist, see this 2017 article published by the Guardian: https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...l-1967-borders.. No, it isn't. Hamas wants to wipe out Israel. Israel and Palestine could possibly co-exist. Israel and Hamas controlled Palestine cannot. Originally Posted by Michel H Anyway, Hamas is not a very powerful force on the world stage, They are the democratically elected government of the Palestinian people. Any time there is support for Palestine there is support for Hamas. Originally Posted by Michel H and Hamas may need to correct itself and improve too. No, Hamas needs to be eradicated. Note that I am not saying Palestine does, nor the Palestinian people. Just Hamas. Originally Posted by Michel H If my country (Belgium) was in such a situation, I might write to the Prime Minister and tell him: "Look, Mr. Prime Minister, why don't you first stop militarily occupying our neighbors Luxembourg and the Netherlands?" While I agree with the idea that Israel really, REALLY needs to stop settlement building in the contested areas, you do realise why the military occupation exists, right? It isn't because Israel just decided one day to occupy the territory. Originally Posted by Michel H If the rocket firing does go on, even after the necessary evacuations, then I would say my country has a right to fight back. Which it would. The rocket firing was going on before the occupation, and would continue after the occupation was ended.
	__________________ Naturalism adjusts it's principles to fit with the observed data. It's a god of the facts world view. -joobz When I give food to the poor, they call me a Saint. When I ask why the poor have no food, they call me a Communist. - Hélder Câmara

17th May 2021, 07:28 AM	#58
TurkeysGhost Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2018 Posts: 31,750	Quote: Israeli forces bombed a building that housed The Associated Press and Al Jazeera in Gaza City on Saturday, the news outlets reported, amid the latest round of air strikes in the area. The AP reported that the entire 12-story building collapsed. Al Jazeera shared a 50-second clip on Twitter of the building crumbling after it had been hit. https://thehill.com/homenews/media/5...ld-be-targeted IDF is now targeting journalists in Gaza. Quote: Mostefa Souag, acting director-general of Al-Jazeera Media Network, called the strike a “war crime” and a “clear act” to stop journalists from reporting on the conflict. Kuwait state television also had office space in the now-collapsed Gaza City building. ... Pruitt, the AP’s CEO, said the news agency had been in the building for 15 years and “we have had no indication Hamas was in the building or active in the building.” https://apnews.com/article/israel-mi...be7db59b6ecbf4
	__________________ Previously known as SuburbanTurkey Last edited by TurkeysGhost; 17th May 2021 at 07:34 AM.

17th May 2021, 07:33 AM	#59
lionking In the Peanut Gallery Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Melbourne Posts: 53,497	Originally Posted by Belz... Ah, there it is. I called it. Called ******* what? Hamas wants Israel destroyed, do you agree? There are Hamas cheerleaders in this and similar threads.
	__________________ A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject. Sir Winston Churchill

17th May 2021, 07:43 AM	#60
Belz... Fiend God Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: In a post-fact world Posts: 96,875	Originally Posted by lionking Called ******* what? Hamas wants Israel destroyed, do you agree? There are Hamas cheerleaders in this and similar threads. I'm sure you think there are.
	__________________ Master of the Shining Darkness "My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward

17th May 2021, 07:47 AM	#61
JoeMorgue Self Employed Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 44,184	You know what... nobody gets it. Just wall off the entire area, kick everybody out, and flood it with seawater. I don't care anymore. I just don't care.
	__________________ "If everyone in the room says water is wet and I say it's dry that makes me smart because at least I'm thinking for myself!" - The Proudly Wrong.

17th May 2021, 07:54 AM	#62
Meadmaker Guest Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 29,033	Originally Posted by Michel H I believe Israel should end the illegal occupations of the West Bank and East Jerusalem, and lift the Gaza blockade, and this would take care of many of its current worries. You think? What do you suppose would actually happen if they did that? That's meant as a serious question. Let's imagine the two state solution. A nation of Palestine gets created. It has control of all the "occupied territy". Let's even throw in the Temple Mount and Old City of Jerusalem. (Why Israel would agree to that, I don't know, but let's pretend that it could happen.) Do you think there would be peace and justice after that? Israel and the new nation of Palestine are not attacked? Arabs living in Israel would be full and equal citizens? Jew living in Palestine would be full and equal citizens? Nobody kills anybody over there? Do you think that's a realistic possibility?
Meadmaker Guest Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 29,033

17th May 2021, 07:58 AM	#63
JoeMorgue Self Employed Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 44,184	Raise your hand if you honestly there is a thing you could "give" either/both sides that would stop that? If your hand is raised slap yourself with it. This conflict is self-feeding.
	__________________ "If everyone in the room says water is wet and I say it's dry that makes me smart because at least I'm thinking for myself!" - The Proudly Wrong.

17th May 2021, 08:03 AM	#64
Belz... Fiend God Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: In a post-fact world Posts: 96,875	Originally Posted by JoeMorgue Raise your hand if you honestly there is a thing you could "give" either/both sides that would stop that? The infinity gauntlet?
	__________________ Master of the Shining Darkness "My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward

17th May 2021, 08:05 AM	#65
TurkeysGhost Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2018 Posts: 31,750	Originally Posted by JoeMorgue You know what... nobody gets it. Just wall off the entire area, kick everybody out, and flood it with seawater. I don't care anymore. I just don't care. The whole "the issue is too complex" and both siderism excuses for Israel's campaign of ethnic cleansing is getting a bit threadbare. This isn't an issue of two belligerents fighting over who's long dead ancestors have rights to the land, this is an issue of a powerful nation violently dispossessing a weaker one of their lands in a campaign to ethnically cleanse the area. Israel has been fighting a decades long campaign of aggression against the Palestinian people to forcibly annex their lands. Any resistance to this is met with overwhelming force, largely backed by the USA. Efforts to sanction or otherwise stop Israel internationally have also been stymied primarily by the USA. The report from HRW in the OP lays it out quite clearly. Simply by population count, Israel cannot be a Jewish state unless it practices apartheid. Arabs make up about 50% of the population of Israel if you include the populations that live in occupied territory. Quote: Israeli policy has sought to engineer and maximize the number of Jews, as well as the land available to them, in Israel and the portions of the OPT coveted by the Israeli government for Jewish settlement. At the same time, by restricting the residency rights of Palestinians, Israeli policy seeks to minimize the number of Palestinians and the land available to them in those areas. The level of repression is most severe in the OPT, although often less severe aspects of similar policies can be found within Israel. https://www.hrw.org/report/2021/04/2...nd-persecution
	__________________ Previously known as SuburbanTurkey

17th May 2021, 08:08 AM	#66
JoeMorgue Self Employed Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 44,184	Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey This isn't an issue of two belligerents fighting over who's long dead ancestors have rights to the land, this is an issue of a powerful nation violently dispossessing a weaker one of their lands in a campaign to ethnically cleanse the area. Yeah if actually look at it as Israel V Palestine instead of Israel V V Palestine (as a proxy for the entire Middle East.) That's why I hate this topic. You can zoom in and out as far as you want and be right depending on where you stop. If you look at it as Israel V Palestine than Israel is the.. overdog (whatever the opposite of underdog is). If you look at it as Israel V the Entire Middle East than Israel is not. If you look at it as Israel as a proxy nation for the US V... and so and so on mix and match until you get the narrative you want. And again this isn't a movie. The scrappy underdog isn't the correct one by default. In the real world the less powerful side can still be the wrong one.
	__________________ "If everyone in the room says water is wet and I say it's dry that makes me smart because at least I'm thinking for myself!" - The Proudly Wrong.

17th May 2021, 08:13 AM	#67
TurkeysGhost Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2018 Posts: 31,750	Originally Posted by JoeMorgue Yeah if actually look at it as Israel V Palestine instead of Israel V V Palestine (as a proxy for the entire Middle East.) That's why I hate this topic. You can zoom in and out as far as you want and be right depending on where you stop. If you look at it as Israel V Palestine than Israel is the stronger. If you look at it as Israel V the Entire Middle East than Israel is not. If you look at it as Israel as a proxy nation for the US V... and so and so on mix and match until you get the narrative you want. And again this isn't a movie. The scrappy underdog isn't the correct one by default. In the real world the less powerful side can still be the wrong one. How wide of a lens do you have to use to make it morally acceptable for a population of people to live under permanent military rule? The Palestinians are neither granted full citizenship in Israel nor sovereignty to rule themselves. They are permanent subjects of occupation as Israel forcibly removes them from their homes and puts them into the open-air prison that is the Gaza strip. You don't have to pretend that Hamas or all Palestinians are morally correct in order to recognize what is happening to the Palestinian people is a crime against humanity.
	__________________ Previously known as SuburbanTurkey

17th May 2021, 08:20 AM	#68
JoeMorgue Self Employed Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 44,184	Again I stand by my point. If you took either side, gave them what they claim they want, and expected the conflict to end you'd be a massive idiot. When practicality is this far away from a solution, arguing morality seems almost quaint.
	__________________ "If everyone in the room says water is wet and I say it's dry that makes me smart because at least I'm thinking for myself!" - The Proudly Wrong.

17th May 2021, 08:23 AM	#69
TurkeysGhost Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2018 Posts: 31,750	Originally Posted by JoeMorgue Again I stand by my point. If you took either side, gave them what they claim they want, and expected the conflict to end you'd be a massive idiot. When practicality is this far away from a solution, arguing morality seems almost quaint. There's probably a better solution between unachievable peaceful coexistence and turning a blind eye to ethnic cleansing. The USA's unconditional support of Israel plays a large role in their belligerent stance.
	__________________ Previously known as SuburbanTurkey Last edited by TurkeysGhost; 17th May 2021 at 08:25 AM.

17th May 2021, 08:30 AM	#70
Garrison Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: UK Posts: 5,960	Yes Hamas is terrible, but none of the previous exchanges of rockets and airstrikes has undermined them or weakened their grip, what is going to make this one different? What in short is Israel's plan to find some 'moderate' Palestinian leadership to negotiate with? Or are they content to continue the cycle of violence until the whole West Bank is full of two-thirds empty Israeli settlements?
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17th May 2021, 08:41 AM	#71
Belz... Fiend God Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: In a post-fact world Posts: 96,875	Originally Posted by Garrison Yes Hamas is terrible, but none of the previous exchanges of rockets and airstrikes has undermined them or weakened their grip, what is going to make this one different? What in short is Israel's plan to find some 'moderate' Palestinian leadership to negotiate with? Or are they content to continue the cycle of violence until the whole West Bank is full of two-thirds empty Israeli settlements? I don't think they want a moderate Palestiain leadership to negociate with.
	__________________ Master of the Shining Darkness "My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward

17th May 2021, 08:45 AM	#72
ponderingturtle Orthogonal Vector Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 53,086	Originally Posted by Meadmaker You think? What do you suppose would actually happen if they did that? That's meant as a serious question. Let's imagine the two state solution. A nation of Palestine gets created. It has control of all the "occupied territy". Let's even throw in the Temple Mount and Old City of Jerusalem. (Why Israel would agree to that, I don't know, but let's pretend that it could happen.) Do you think there would be peace and justice after that? Israel and the new nation of Palestine are not attacked? Arabs living in Israel would be full and equal citizens? Jew living in Palestine would be full and equal citizens? Nobody kills anybody over there? Do you think that's a realistic possibility? You are right ethnic cleansing is really the only realistic solution. Look at how well it is going in Myanmar for example.
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17th May 2021, 08:47 AM	#73
ponderingturtle Orthogonal Vector Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 53,086	Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey There's probably a better solution between unachievable peaceful coexistence and turning a blind eye to ethnic cleansing. The USA's unconditional support of Israel plays a large role in their belligerent stance. We just need to stop viewing ethnic cleansing as a bad thing.
	__________________ Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no poofing in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin

17th May 2021, 08:49 AM	#74
ponderingturtle Orthogonal Vector Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 53,086	Originally Posted by Belz... I don't think they want a moderate Palestiain leadership to negociate with. It would make it harder to steal their land for one. Much more useful this way.
	__________________ Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no poofing in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin

17th May 2021, 09:34 AM	#75
Michel H Suspended Join Date: May 2012 Location: Belgium Posts: 3,368	Originally Posted by Meadmaker You think? What do you suppose would actually happen if they did that? That's meant as a serious question. Let's imagine the two state solution. A nation of Palestine gets created. It has control of all the "occupied territy". Let's even throw in the Temple Mount and Old City of Jerusalem. (Why Israel would agree to that, I don't know, but let's pretend that it could happen.) Do you think there would be peace and justice after that? Israel and the new nation of Palestine are not attacked? Arabs living in Israel would be full and equal citizens? Jew living in Palestine would be full and equal citizens? Nobody kills anybody over there? Do you think that's a realistic possibility? Yes, of course it's a realistic possibility, although it would not lead to a perfectly egalitarian society (but probably to a great improvement in relations between Jews and Arabs). Israel relies on massive military support by the United States to crush any resistance, and continue its policies of occupation, blockade, and settlement expansion (though the current Biden administration is probably more moderate and reasonable than ... hum ... the previous one). The solution of this Middle East conflict is surprisingly simple, in view of how complicated it is often (falsely) described. Just end the illegal occupations, that's it. This would of course be a Copernican Revolution in Israeli politics. With the new war in Israel and Palestine, we are witnessing the absurdity, for many years, of U.S. policy in the region: provide massive support for the side which is oppressing and invading the other side (and this is not even the end of this matter: on might also add economic persecution of Iran and Syria, invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan and so on).