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Old 15th March 2023, 07:10 AM   #561
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This is the site of the accident where you can clearly see the width of the path and what it would be like for a cyclist and a pedestrian to pass with other around the signpost.

https://goo.gl/maps/FYikVmfKD9FJh14p9
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Old 15th March 2023, 07:38 AM   #562
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Originally Posted by Lplus View Post
It seems to be reasonablly wide here : https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.33...8i8192!5m1!1e1

I'm not sure which sign lobrul5 is referring to, perhaps this one https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.33...8i8192!5m1!1e1

Which has been supported on posts either side of the footway to allow access.

There's a lamp column here https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.33...8i8192!5m1!1e1

Which is in the footway but there's plenty of room around it.
On the left, see the road sign, that is the side of the pavement they were on. A cyclist would have to weave to the right of the sign, then back left to get by the traffic light. In neither case would there be room for two pedestrian let alone a cyclist and a pedestrian to cross. Its a bad design for a shared use path. Although it seems, that side of the road wasn't intended to be. On the right... so cyclists are mean to go inbetween the sign posts?
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Old 15th March 2023, 08:16 AM   #563
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Originally Posted by Ethan Thane Athen View Post
Yeah, I wouldn't go as far as 'miscarriage of justice', there certainly seems enough there to indicate a fair bit of culpability, I still remain slightly surprised and used the word 'indicate' deliberately because my surprise is more that they were certain beyond reasonable doubt rather than that I think it's a clearly wrong verdict. Also mildly surprised at the certainty that the pedestrian's disability didn't play a bit, partly because I can see how it might (even if to just making her feel more vulnerable) and partly because people normally pussy foot around that. It does seem that she completely failed to impress the judge!
Just as a point of information: the standard is not "beyond reasonable doubt". The jury is directed to reach a guilty verdict if the prosecution has proved its case "so that you [the jury] are sure". The standard hasn't been literally "beyond reasonable doubt" in England for some years.
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Old 15th March 2023, 09:23 AM   #564
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Originally Posted by lobosrul5 View Post
On the left, see the road sign, that is the side of the pavement they were on. A cyclist would have to weave to the right of the sign, then back left to get by the traffic light. In neither case would there be room for two pedestrian let alone a cyclist and a pedestrian to cross. Its a bad design for a shared use path. Although it seems, that side of the road wasn't intended to be. On the right... so cyclists are mean to go inbetween the sign posts?
Ok, thanks, my mistake. Agreed the north side of the road is unsuitable. The idea of spacing signposts to allow passage bewteen is not unusual in the UK.
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Old 15th March 2023, 10:45 AM   #565
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Originally Posted by lobosrul5 View Post
They put THAT on a cycling path to raise awareness for cycling ?

That looks like some left over jungle gym type playground equipment leftover from 50 years ago.
I thought it was silly too, but then I looked closer. You can see there is a sign saying "Cyclists Dismount" as the route continues down some steps. I suspect that not enough cyclists were obeying the instruction and putting pedestrians on the steps at risk, and that the maze was a way of ensuring they got off the bike.
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Old 15th March 2023, 10:53 AM   #566
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
I thought it was silly too, but then I looked closer. You can see there is a sign saying "Cyclists Dismount" as the route continues down some steps. I suspect that not enough cyclists were obeying the instruction and putting pedestrians on the steps at risk, and that the maze was a way of ensuring they got off the bike.

They are often a copout.

http://wcc.crankfoot.xyz/facility-of...tember2007.htm

Quote:
Essex County Council is promoting cycling as an effective and enjoyable form of aerobic exercise to reduce the incidence heart disease, high blood pressure and obesity in the county. Unfortunately it was discovered that, rather than pedalling briskly, Harlow's cyclists were freewheeling down this gently sloping path. To counter this, signs have been introduced at regular intervals requiring cyclists to get off and walk.

This particularly daunting section, requires seven dismounts within a distance of 380 yards Note, how at each junction the kerbs are maintained on the downhill side of the path, thus ensuring that even the laziest cyclists gain the full health benefits from their activity.

Essex County Council
Location Map
Cycle Streets
Check out the idiotic arrangement here.

Hardly conducive to utility transport not leisure.

And a fine example why cyclists often use the road instead of the cycle facilities in the UK.
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Old 15th March 2023, 10:55 AM   #567
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Originally Posted by jeremyp View Post
Just as a point of information: the standard is not "beyond reasonable doubt". The jury is directed to reach a guilty verdict if the prosecution has proved its case "so that you [the jury] are sure". The standard hasn't been literally "beyond reasonable doubt" in England for some years.
No but it is still about the best way to summarise the process.
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Old 15th March 2023, 11:07 AM   #568
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Originally Posted by RolandRat View Post
The link states some harm that leads to a death. I think a reasonable person would judge pushing someone on a bike could cause "some harm". This "some harm" led to a death. This is rightfully manslaughter.
I’m going to assume the UK has a similar type of law that covers what in the US is assault. No physical contact needs to happen for a reasonable person to expect that a motion might result in injurious physical contact.
Is it legal in the UK to take-punch someone? Or make aggressive movements that a reasonable person assumes may result in contact that counts as battery?
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Old 15th March 2023, 11:23 AM   #569
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Originally Posted by Shrinker View Post
You were talking specifically about the case of somebody getting off their bike to walk around a pedestrian, not stop and exchange pleasantries. You were trying to make the case that the Highway Code requires it.
Er no, sorry if I didn't make myself clear. the stopping is to avoid a squeeze past and the exchanging pleasantries normally occurs as a result of that. I didn't mean that the exchanging pleasantries was the reason for stopping.

Then again, I live in a part of the country where people will take any excuse for a bit of chatter about the weather etc. Took my wife (from London) ages to get used to. For a while she assumed I knew everyone we 'bumped into'.

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Old 15th March 2023, 11:27 AM   #570
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Originally Posted by jeremyp View Post
Just as a point of information: the standard is not "beyond reasonable doubt". The jury is directed to reach a guilty verdict if the prosecution has proved its case "so that you [the jury] are sure". The standard hasn't been literally "beyond reasonable doubt" in England for some years.
Thanks - appreciate the update.
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Old 15th March 2023, 11:31 AM   #571
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Originally Posted by Shrinker View Post
This is the site of the accident where you can clearly see the width of the path and what it would be like for a cyclist and a pedestrian to pass with other around the signpost.

https://goo.gl/maps/FYikVmfKD9FJh14p9
Genuine question, honestly not being arsey, how much room is a cyclist meant to leave when passing a pedestrian? I know a car is meant to leave a cars width when passing a bike ie manoeuvre as if the bike was the width of a car but I don't know the guidelines for bikes and people.
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Old 15th March 2023, 11:50 AM   #572
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Originally Posted by lobosrul5 View Post
So you can call someone an idiot in the UK and go to jail for 6 months... I think I'll pass on ever travelling there. ETA: although the highlighted sure seems like a highbar to prove. Are you sure those were the pedestrians intentions, beyond a reasonable doubt?
That's the point, it is a highbar to prove. Innocent until proven guilty. You're not going to prison for calling someone a twat.

Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
I'd like to see some cases where prosecutions have been made successfully. Looks to me like some pretty broad gray areas requiring interpretation of intent, threatening, abusive, insulting, disorderly, harassment, alarm, distress, and "writing, sign or other visible representation." If a grocery advertises lamb on sale, maybe with a picture, and a vegan is "alarmed or distressed," is that a crime?
The grocer isn't going to prison. If he threw the leg of lamb through a window into a vegan meeting, then maybe. The link below has an incident where someone was jailed under these laws:

https://www.herefordtimes.com/news/1...earing-street/

Originally Posted by autumn1971 View Post
Im going to assume the UK has a similar type of law that covers what in the US is assault. No physical contact needs to happen for a reasonable person to expect that a motion might result in injurious physical contact.
Is it legal in the UK to take-punch someone? Or make aggressive movements that a reasonable person assumes may result in contact that counts as battery?
I'm not a lawyer, but I believe the actions you describe would be covered under the legislation mentioned above.
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Old 15th March 2023, 12:26 PM   #573
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Originally Posted by jeremyp View Post
Just as a point of information: the standard is not "beyond reasonable doubt". The jury is directed to reach a guilty verdict if the prosecution has proved its case "so that you [the jury] are sure". The standard hasn't been literally "beyond reasonable doubt" in England for some years.

That sounds like an even vaguer standard. There is always debate about what constitutes "reasonable" doubt. "Are you sure?" is even less precise.
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Old 15th March 2023, 12:32 PM   #574
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Originally Posted by RolandRat View Post
....
The link below has an incident where someone was jailed under these laws:

https://www.herefordtimes.com/news/1...earing-street/
....

From your link:
Quote:
The court heard the 55-year-old had caused harassment, alarm, and distress by shouting and swearing in the street in Birmingham on September 27.
And for that he got 40 weeks in jail, including a suspended sentence for a previous infraction.

That's just crazy. In the U.S. somebody might -- maybe, possibly -- get a citation for disturbing the peace or disorderly conduct. Nothing like this.
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Old 15th March 2023, 01:08 PM   #575
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
From your link:


And for that he got 40 weeks in jail, including a suspended sentence for a previous infraction.

That's just crazy. In the U.S. somebody might -- maybe, possibly -- get a citation for disturbing the peace or disorderly conduct. Nothing like this.
So great to hear how wonderful the US justice system is.
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Old 15th March 2023, 01:13 PM   #576
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
So great to hear how wonderful the US justice system is…….
No, we suck. We just don't codify it in law... ie there was a guy arrested and held for a number of weeks for insulting a cop. Of course, eventually, he received a huge settlement payout and everyone in the town is a bit poorer.

ETA: I must say though, that its pretty neat that the UK has so much money to spare that they can afford to jail a person for wondering around and shouting obscenities for several months. I mean the NHS must be flush with cash for them to proritize that, than giving nurses a raise! Amazing!!! /s

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Old 15th March 2023, 01:15 PM   #577
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Originally Posted by autumn1971 View Post
Im going to assume the UK has a similar type of law that covers what in the US is assault. No physical contact needs to happen for a reasonable person to expect that a motion might result in injurious physical contact.
Is it legal in the UK to take-punch someone? Or make aggressive movements that a reasonable person assumes may result in contact that counts as battery?
Do you mean fake-punch? Yeah if the pedestrian had done that, and that had caused the cyclist to fall into traffic and die. I would make no argument, thats manslaughter. Not seeing that in the video though.
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Old 15th March 2023, 01:18 PM   #578
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Is there any question (or reasonable doubt or this or that or whatever the **** you want to call it) that if the pedestrian had just walked normally down the sidewalk without gesturing or gesticulating the cyclist would still be alive?

It seems we're wasting a lot of words arguing about a lot that isn't that.
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Old 15th March 2023, 01:20 PM   #579
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
From your link:

And for that he got 40 weeks in jail, including a suspended sentence for a previous infraction.

That's just crazy. In the U.S. somebody might -- maybe, possibly -- get a citation for disturbing the peace or disorderly conduct. Nothing like this.
Or shot by trigger-happy cops annoyed at a loony who wouldn't comply with police orders?
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Old 15th March 2023, 01:21 PM   #580
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Is there any question (or reasonable doubt or this or that or whatever the **** you want to call it) that if the pedestrian had just walked normally down the sidewalk without gesturing or gesticulating the cyclist would still be alive?

It seems we're wasting a lot of words arguing about a lot that isn't that.
If the UK defined manslaughter as any actions which cause another persons death as manslaughter* then we'd be done here. But they do not.

*or murder if its intent to kill obviously
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Old 15th March 2023, 01:33 PM   #581
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
Or shot by trigger-happy cops annoyed at a loony who wouldn't comply with police orders?

Sure,. that could happen, too. But it would not be a sentence imposed by the judicial process.
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Old 15th March 2023, 01:40 PM   #582
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
From your link:


And for that he got 40 weeks in jail, including a suspended sentence for a previous infraction.

That's just crazy. In the U.S. somebody might -- maybe, possibly -- get a citation for disturbing the peace or disorderly conduct. Nothing like this.
The guy was obviously a serial offender, he was already on an order prohibiting him from being dick in public.

It just highlights that you can be jailed for causing distress and as such, the pedestrian's actions can easily be construed to be illegal and as they led to a death, manslaughter, IMO, was the rightful verdict.
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Old 15th March 2023, 01:52 PM   #583
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For the second night running the road on which the incident occured is closed according to Google Maps - from Ambury Road to Hartford Road. It mayh ave been closed on previous nights but I didn't check.

I wonder what they are doing....
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Old 15th March 2023, 02:21 PM   #584
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Originally Posted by RolandRat View Post
The guy was obviously a serial offender, he was already on an order prohibiting him from being dick in public.
.....

Being a dick in public isn't generally treated as a crime, certainly not one meriting a long jail term. I see the belligerent drunks staggering in the streets when the bars close as intimidating and distressing, but the cops aren't scooping them up. It looks like freedom of speech isn't much of a concept in the UK.
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Old 15th March 2023, 02:26 PM   #585
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Being a dick in public isn't generally treated as a crime, certainly not one meriting a long jail term. I see the belligerent drunks staggering in the streets when the bars close as intimidating and distressing, but the cops aren't scooping them up. It looks like freedom of speech isn't much of a concept in the UK.
I don't want to derail the thread talking about this idiot, to finalise on his case, I don't see why other people should have to put up with some prat who can't control himself. He's done it plenty of times, he didn't heed the warnings.

Feck around and find out.
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Old 15th March 2023, 02:34 PM   #586
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Originally Posted by Ethan Thane Athen View Post
Genuine question, honestly not being arsey, how much room is a cyclist meant to leave when passing a pedestrian? I know a car is meant to leave a cars width when passing a bike ie manoeuvre as if the bike was the width of a car but I don't know the guidelines for bikes and people.
I don't think a car is supposed to leave a car's width when passing a bike. I believe it's generally considered a meter and a half is sufficient. In other words, the same amount of room as you would leave a car you were overtaking. Nobody leaves a car's width between cars when overtaking - if they did, they'd almost need a three lane highway to do it.
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Old 15th March 2023, 03:03 PM   #587
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Originally Posted by RolandRat View Post
I don't want to derail the thread talking about this idiot, to finalise on his case, I don't see why other people should have to put up with some prat who can't control himself. He's done it plenty of times, he didn't heed the warnings.

Feck around and find out.

Part of living in a free society is putting up with other people's offensive behavior. If the guy was doing something specific -- obstructing traffic, threatening to hurt somebody, etc. -- there are specific laws that could be applied. "Causing distress" is a pretty ridiculous charge, and it could be applied to anybody -- including political protests and union picket lines -- that somebody else doesn't like.
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Old 16th March 2023, 07:46 AM   #588
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Part of living in a free society is putting up with other people's offensive behavior.
Okay so why does not apply to the pedestrian just getting over her hang-ups about cyclists driving on "her" sidewalk?

Why is our discourse completely controlled by people who think standards only exist to excuse bad people and punish good people?
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Old 16th March 2023, 08:25 AM   #589
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Originally Posted by jeremyp View Post
Just as a point of information: the standard is not "beyond reasonable doubt". The jury is directed to reach a guilty verdict if the prosecution has proved its case "so that you [the jury] are sure". The standard hasn't been literally "beyond reasonable doubt" in England for some years.
Not exactly. While the guidance given to judges, to pass on to jurors, no longer includes the particular phrase, it remains within the law.

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The burden of proving the guilt of the defendant lies on the prosecution, who must prove the particulars of the offence beyond reasonable doubt; the jury or magistrates should only convict if they are sure of the defendant's guilt.
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In criminal proceedings, the prosecution normally has the legal burden of proving, beyond reasonable doubt, all elements of the offence.
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Old 16th March 2023, 09:24 AM   #590
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Okay so why does not apply to the pedestrian just getting over her hang-ups about cyclists driving on "her" sidewalk?
.....

Well, in this particular case a speeding cyclist is a physical threat to a woman who is half-blind with mobility issues. Even on a "shared path," the cyclist is responsible for respecting a pedestrian's safety.
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Old 16th March 2023, 09:25 AM   #591
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Well, in this particular case a speeding cyclist is a physical threat to a woman who is half-blind with mobility issues. Even on a "shared path," the cyclist is responsible for respecting a pedestrian's safety.
Exactly how long are you going to ignore the fact that this pedestrian had been harassing cyclists on this path for a while?
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Old 16th March 2023, 09:28 AM   #592
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Exactly how long are you going to ignore the fact that this pedestrian had been harassing cyclists on this path for a while?

Where's the evidence for that? And by "harassing," do you mean "Don't hit me with your stupid bicycle!"

Last edited by Bob001; 16th March 2023 at 09:29 AM.
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Old 16th March 2023, 09:33 AM   #593
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Where's the evidence for that? And by "harassing," do you mean "Don't hit me with your stupid bicycle!"
No I mean her childish "This sidewalk is for me and me only!" attitude.
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Old 16th March 2023, 09:43 AM   #594
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Well, in this particular case a speeding cyclist is a physical threat to a woman who is half-blind with mobility issues. Even on a "shared path," the cyclist is responsible for respecting a pedestrian's safety.
What makes you think she was 'speeding'? That's certainly not evident from the cctv footage.
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Old 16th March 2023, 09:55 AM   #595
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
What makes you think she was 'speeding'? That's certainly not evident from the cctv footage.

We don't see the cyclist approaching the pedestrian. We don't know how the half-blind pedestrian perceived the cyclist. We only see the cyclist trying to force her way past the pedestrian.
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Old 16th March 2023, 09:59 AM   #596
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
We don't see the cyclist approaching the pedestrian. We don't know how the half-blind pedestrian perceived the cyclist. We only see the cyclist trying to force her way past the pedestrian.
The question remains - What makes you think she was 'speeding'? We see the bike beginning to pass Ms Grey and then the bike and cyclist falling. There is no suggestion of speeding.
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Old 16th March 2023, 10:07 AM   #597
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Well, in this particular case a speeding cyclist is a physical threat to a woman who is half-blind with mobility issues. Even on a "shared path," the cyclist is responsible for respecting a pedestrian's safety.
Obviously the threat was the pedestrian, as the cyclist was the one who died.
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Old 16th March 2023, 10:11 AM   #598
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Originally Posted by Disbelief View Post
Obviously the threat was the pedestrian, as the cyclist was the one who died.
Yeah people keep glossing over the tiny little piddling detail.
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Old 16th March 2023, 11:11 AM   #599
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Is there any question (or reasonable doubt or this or that or whatever the **** you want to call it) that if the pedestrian had just walked normally down the sidewalk without gesturing or gesticulating the cyclist would still be alive?

It seems we're wasting a lot of words arguing about a lot that isn't that.
In my view, had the cyclist approached from behind the pedestrian, the entire event would have been written off as an unfortunate accident. But she didn't and it wasn't.

I also think that we right-pondians are quite pragmatic; we try to act within the spirit or any law and not necessarily it's exactness.

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Old 16th March 2023, 11:53 AM   #600
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
The question remains - What makes you think she was 'speeding'? We see the bike beginning to pass Ms Grey and then the bike and cyclist falling. There is no suggestion of speeding.
And there would have been plenty of space to pass safely. We can see the cyclist had not been cycling quickly.
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