Manslaughter, for shouting at a cyclist - Page 8

Nessie · 7th March 2023, 12:26 PM

Originally Posted by RolandRat

Losing her balance at the same moment the pedestrian moved her arm towards her. I think the pedestrians actions clear the "reasonable doubt" bar. She made a conscious decision to interfere with the cyclist and that interference led to the cyclists death.

Interfere with. Manslaughter requires a reckless act that a reasonable man would know had a good chance of causing death.

Pedestrians shouting and gesticulating at cyclists has been going ever since cycles were invented and vice versa. That level of interference is not normally associated with death. The reasonable man would not think, better not shout at that cyclist in case they die.

Disbelief · 7th March 2023, 12:30 PM

Originally Posted by Nessie

Interfere with. Manslaughter requires a reckless act that a reasonable man would know had a good chance of causing death.

Pedestrians shouting and gesticulating at cyclists has been going ever since cycles were invented and vice versa. That level of interference is not normally associated with death. The reasonable man would not think, better not shout at that cyclist in case they die.

A reasonable person would also not make contact with the cyclist, like the pedestrian admitted to doing in this case.

GlennB · 7th March 2023, 12:33 PM

Originally Posted by Nessie

Interfere with. Manslaughter requires a reckless act that a reasonable man would know had a good chance of causing death.

Pedestrians shouting and gesticulating at cyclists has been going ever since cycles were invented and vice versa. That level of interference is not normally associated with death. The reasonable man would not think, better not shout at that cyclist in case they die.

The reasonable man would not deliberately limit the cyclist to a < 1m width of pavement either.

JoeMorgue · 7th March 2023, 12:36 PM

A "reasonable" person would give the tiniest ounce of concern that they just killed someone, even if it wasn't "technically not my fault because the paperwork for this being a dual use path was printed on office and not legal size paper."

Nessie · 7th March 2023, 12:38 PM

The reasonable cyclist would remember the Highway Code and that they need to take care passing pedestrians and the onus is on them to stay safe. She could have gone into the space between the pedestrian and fence, or stopped and let her pass, or stopped and checked the road and then moved off the pavement.

Nessie · 7th March 2023, 12:54 PM

The trial Judge's sentencing comments;

https://rozenberg.substack.com/p/why...ot-three-years

A witness not previously discussed;

"The court heard evidence from a number of witnesses, and I found William Walker to be reliable and thoughtful. He is a cyclist and driver. He said that you and Mrs Ward appeared to have come to a halt in front of each other and you made a lateral sweeping movement with your left arm which was directed at Mrs Ward. He said “it either made contact or she recoiled and fell”.

The Judge admits uncertainty about the status of the pavement;

"This was, I think, a shared path for cyclists..."

The reason why the Judge considered the pedestrian to be reckless;

"...my finding that the sweep of your arm was an intentional act but being reckless as to whether harm would be caused."

The pedestrian did not just leave the scene

"You offered assistance at the scene, but you were turned away by others."

Bob001 · 7th March 2023, 01:12 PM

Originally Posted by Nessie

....
The pedestrian did not just leave the scene

"You offered assistance at the scene, but you were turned away by others."

That seems pretty significant, since a lot of the comments here claim that she just kept going. In fact, she was told to go away.

Bob001 · 7th March 2023, 01:18 PM

Originally Posted by Nessie

The reasonable cyclist would remember the Highway Code and that they need to take care passing pedestrians and the onus is on them to stay safe. She could have gone into the space between the pedestrian and fence, or stopped and let her pass, or stopped and checked the road and then moved off the pavement.

Going back to the beginning, it appears that the cyclist was not operating a standard adult bicycle. The wheels are much smaller, and the handlebar stem is much taller. It may have been a folding bicycle. At low speeds that geometry would make the cycle harder to control, which is all the more reason she should have been walking through a narrow space.

lionking · 7th March 2023, 02:06 PM

Originally Posted by RolandRat

Losing her balance at the same moment the pedestrian moved her arm towards her. I think the pedestrians actions clear the "reasonable doubt" bar. She made a conscious decision to interfere with the cyclist and that interference led to the cyclists death.

Indeed. Which is why she is in jail.

lionking · 7th March 2023, 02:09 PM

Originally Posted by Bob001

Going back to the beginning, it appears that the cyclist was not operating a standard adult bicycle. The wheels are much smaller, and the handlebar stem is much taller. It may have been a folding bicycle. At low speeds that geometry would make the cycle harder to control, which is all the more reason she should have been walking through a narrow space.

The contortions to excuse the pedestrian and blame the cyclist are truely amazing. “Appears to be”, “may have been”; all these things are irrelevant and the court have found them so.

lionking · 7th March 2023, 02:13 PM

Originally Posted by Bob001

That seems pretty significant, since a lot of the comments here claim that she just kept going. In fact, she was told to go away.

Who told her to leave? It was not the police who arrested her later. She may have been still ranting at the dying cyclist (hey, others are wildly speculating, why not me?), but she should not have left. It’s pretty widespread knowledge that you don’t leave the scene of an accident you were involved in.

Bob001 · 7th March 2023, 02:37 PM

Originally Posted by lionking

The contortions to excuse the pedestrian and blame the cyclist are truely amazing. “Appears to be”, “may have been”; all these things are irrelevant and the court have found them so.

I think there's plenty of blame to go around. I am not convinced that the pedestrian committed a crime by cursing and gesturing. And it is indisputable that the cyclist could have made other choices that would have kept her safe. "Get outta my way, I'm riding a bicycle!" is not a helpful attitude, either.

LondonJohn · 7th March 2023, 02:52 PM

Originally Posted by Nessie

I was mocking London John for his comment about the "pedestrian's forceful gesticulations".

How do you know she did not just lose her balance as she slowed to pass the pedestrian? When was the last time you were on a bike and rode it at walking pace? It is hard to keep your balance at that speed.

You were mocking me, huh? I see.

Anyhow, that aside, it sounds like you're unaware of the (obvious) distinction between a) someone languidly and slowly moving their arm slightly outwards and b) someone forcefully and quickly moving their arm significantly outwards. Your ignorance on this point appears to be further compounded by an inability to comprehend why (b) might be (much) more likely to cause a cyclist to veer off-balance than (a).

LondonJohn · 7th March 2023, 02:53 PM

Originally Posted by Nessie

Interfere with. Manslaughter requires a reckless act that a reasonable man would know had a good chance of causing death.

Pedestrians shouting and gesticulating at cyclists has been going ever since cycles were invented and vice versa. That level of interference is not normally associated with death. The reasonable man would not think, better not shout at that cyclist in case they die.

It sounds like the court in this case understands the test for manslaughter a great deal better than you do.

lionking · 7th March 2023, 03:42 PM

Originally Posted by Bob001

I think there's plenty of blame to go around. I am not convinced that the pedestrian committed a crime by cursing and gesturing. And it is indisputable that the cyclist could have made other choices that would have kept her safe. "Get outta my way, I'm riding a bicycle!" is not a helpful attitude, either.

Oh you have a record of the cyclist saying that? That might change things.

JoeMorgue · 7th March 2023, 04:16 PM

Originally Posted by Bob001

I think there's plenty of blame to go around.

Well thank ******* God both sides are equally dead.

No wait...

Bob001 · 7th March 2023, 10:48 PM

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue

Well thank ******* God both sides are equally dead.

No wait...

Not all tragedies are crimes.

lionking · 7th March 2023, 11:10 PM

Originally Posted by Bob001

Not all tragedies are crimes.

Sure. This one is though.

Nessie · 8th March 2023, 01:48 AM

Originally Posted by lionking

The contortions to excuse the pedestrian and blame the cyclist are truely amazing. “Appears to be”, “may have been”; all these things are irrelevant and the court have found them so.

Those are phrases used by the people seeking to excuse the cyclist from taking any responsibility for her own accident. It is sad, it is horrible, but people do silly things that end up resulting in their deaths. She chose to cycle in the gap between the angry pedestrian and the road. She could have gone for the other gap, which would put her on the side of the pavement normally associated with driving on the left, or she could have paused and even waited till the road was clear and moved on to it.

All those claims about a push have now been shown to be false. If shouting and arm waving is reckless conduct, pedestrians will now have to be very careful and the law needs changing, to make cyclists priority over pedestrians.

Nessie · 8th March 2023, 01:50 AM

Originally Posted by lionking

Who told her to leave? It was not the police who arrested her later. She may have been still ranting at the dying cyclist (hey, others are wildly speculating, why not me?), but she should not have left. It’s pretty widespread knowledge that you don’t leave the scene of an accident you were involved in.

Why have you not read what the Judge said? I even quoted him previously.

"You offered assistance at the scene, but you were turned away by others."

Nessie · 8th March 2023, 01:54 AM

Originally Posted by LondonJohn

You were mocking me, huh? I see.

Anyhow, that aside, it sounds like you're unaware of the (obvious) distinction between a) someone languidly and slowly moving their arm slightly outwards and b) someone forcefully and quickly moving their arm significantly outwards. Your ignorance on this point appears to be further compounded by an inability to comprehend why (b) might be (much) more likely to cause a cyclist to veer off-balance than (a).

Remember the legal principle of beyond reasonable doubt? It means there has to be pretty much no doubt at all, that an act caused a result.

Did she overbalance and lose her footing because of a shout and gesture, or because she had poor balance when slow cycling through a narrow gap? Or, was it a bot of both?

That there is another perfectly reasonable cause that was either wholly or partially the cause of the death, means we cannot have beyond reasonable doubt.

Nessie · 8th March 2023, 01:56 AM

Originally Posted by LondonJohn

It sounds like the court in this case understands the test for manslaughter a great deal better than you do.

By court, you mean jury. This case shows that the jury did not understand manslaughter. They should not have convicted based on that evidence.

The Judge's remarks are about why he decided to send her to prison and how long for.

He is not passing comment on the verdict, he has to just accept it.

Puppycow · 8th March 2023, 04:14 AM

Originally Posted by Bob001

There doesn't seem to be any doubt about her medical conditions. If she's partially blind and learning-impaired, I don't see how that's irrelevant.

From another link:

Quote:

Grey has cerebral palsy, is partially blind, suffers from cognitive issues and has been living in shelter accommodation for most of her life.

During sentencing, Judge Sean Enright said: "These actions are not explained by disability."

https://news.yahoo.com/she-wont-cope...124113262.html

This is not somebody you send to prison for waving and shouting. The cyclist failed to control her bike.

What a weird world. You can't hold a person like that criminally responsible, can you? Particularly when there was no obvious intent to cause harm. It was a tragic accident, not a crime.

Shame on the Judge.

GlennB · 8th March 2023, 04:25 AM

Originally Posted by Puppycow

What a weird world. You can't hold a person like that criminally responsible, can you? Particularly when there was no obvious intent to cause harm. It was a tragic accident, not a crime.

Shame on the Judge.

There are degrees of cerebral palsy, as there are with many ailments.

GlennB · 8th March 2023, 04:29 AM

Originally Posted by Nessie

By court, you mean jury. This case shows that the jury did not understand manslaughter. They should not have convicted based on that evidence.

The Judge's remarks are about why he decided to send her to prison and how long for.

He is not passing comment on the verdict, he has to just accept it.

Your obvious clairvoyance and mind-reading skills perfectly equip you for a glittering career as a psychic.

lionking · 8th March 2023, 04:42 AM

Originally Posted by Nessie

Why have you not read what the Judge said? I even quoted him previously.

"You offered assistance at the scene, but you were turned away by others."

I did read that. If it were the police who turned her away it would have been stated. Who turned her away?

lionking · 8th March 2023, 04:45 AM

Originally Posted by GlennB

There are degrees of cerebral palsy, as there are with many ailments.

Indeed. People with cerebral palsy generally want to be treated as others are.

JoeMorgue · 8th March 2023, 06:31 AM

Originally Posted by GlennB

There are degrees of cerebral palsy, as there are with many ailments.

Hers seemed to get a lot worse when she saw the cyclists for instance.

Bob001 · 8th March 2023, 07:42 AM

Originally Posted by lionking

Indeed. People with cerebral palsy generally want to be treated as others are.

That's not her only issue. Her multiple disabilities are so severe that she has apparently lived in supervised care all her life.

Bob001 · 8th March 2023, 07:50 AM

Originally Posted by lionking

I did read that. If it were the police who turned her away it would have been stated. Who turned her away?

Why does it matter? Chances are the cops made some kind of general crowd control announcement like "Move along. Nothing to see..." without realizing her particular role. The point is that the judge took note of the fact that she didn't flee the scene and tried to help. He didn't say "... but you should have stayed anyway."

JoeMorgue · 8th March 2023, 08:41 AM

Fine I'm convinced. This is the greatest injustice since Amanda Knox did a cartwheel. This women should be released from prison and should be allowed to push another cyclists into the street to compensate her for her pain and suffering.

GlennB · 8th March 2023, 08:44 AM

Originally Posted by Bob001

That's not her only issue. Her multiple disabilities are so severe that she has apparently lived in supervised care all her life.

And the judge made a point of saying "Her actions are not explained by her disability", or words very similar.

Nessie · 8th March 2023, 08:53 AM

Originally Posted by lionking

I did read that. If it were the police who turned her away it would have been stated. Who turned her away?

I am going to with the others being people who stopped to render assistance, such as the named witness, the driver of the car.

Bob001 · 8th March 2023, 11:29 AM

Originally Posted by GlennB

And the judge made a point of saying "Her actions are not explained by her disability", or words very similar.

Even if that's true -- and I think there's room for debate -- it's still fair to ask what purpose is served by sending her to prison. She's essentially in custody already.

Bob001 · 8th March 2023, 11:30 AM

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue

Fine I'm convinced. This is the greatest injustice since Amanda Knox did a cartwheel. This women should be released from prison and should be allowed to push another cyclists into the street to compensate her for her pain and suffering.

She was not convicted of or charged with pushing the cyclist.

GlennB · 8th March 2023, 11:36 AM

Originally Posted by Bob001

Even if that's true -- and I think there's room for debate -- it's still fair to ask what purpose is served by sending her to prison. She's essentially in custody already.

'Room for debate' where? Here's one report among many, notice the quotation marks:

But the judge said Grey’s actions ‘are not explained by disability’ and described her as being ‘territorial about the pavement’, adding: ‘You resented the presence of an oncoming cyclist.’

zooterkin · 8th March 2023, 11:44 AM

Originally Posted by Bob001

She was not convicted of or charged with pushing the cyclist.

She was charged with, and convicted of, manslaughter.

Bob001 · 8th March 2023, 12:01 PM

Originally Posted by GlennB

'Room for debate' where? Here's one report among many, notice the quotation marks:

But the judge said Grey’s actions ‘are not explained by disability’ and described her as being ‘territorial about the pavement’, adding: ‘You resented the presence of an oncoming cyclist.’

Resented? Or maybe just afraid of getting hit by a cyclist she could barely see?

GlennB · 8th March 2023, 12:09 PM

Originally Posted by Bob001

Resented? Or maybe just afraid of getting hit by a cyclist she could barely see?

Her words and gestures are not those of someone who is afraid of the cyclist. If you're afraid you move over close to the red fence.

Disbelief · 8th March 2023, 12:10 PM

Originally Posted by Bob001

Resented? Or maybe just afraid of getting hit by a cyclist she could barely see?

Then maybe she should not have stepped towards the cyclist while gesturing, and making contacting with her. If she was afraid of being hit, wouldn't it have made more sense to move away from the cyclist?

7th March 2023, 12:26 PM	#281
Nessie Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 14,758	Originally Posted by RolandRat Losing her balance at the same moment the pedestrian moved her arm towards her. I think the pedestrians actions clear the "reasonable doubt" bar. She made a conscious decision to interfere with the cyclist and that interference led to the cyclists death. Interfere with. Manslaughter requires a reckless act that a reasonable man would know had a good chance of causing death. Pedestrians shouting and gesticulating at cyclists has been going ever since cycles were invented and vice versa. That level of interference is not normally associated with death. The reasonable man would not think, better not shout at that cyclist in case they die.
	__________________ Audiophile/biker/sceptic

7th March 2023, 12:30 PM	#282
Disbelief Illuminator Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 3,204	Originally Posted by Nessie Interfere with. Manslaughter requires a reckless act that a reasonable man would know had a good chance of causing death. Pedestrians shouting and gesticulating at cyclists has been going ever since cycles were invented and vice versa. That level of interference is not normally associated with death. The reasonable man would not think, better not shout at that cyclist in case they die. A reasonable person would also not make contact with the cyclist, like the pedestrian admitted to doing in this case.
Disbelief Illuminator Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 3,204	__________________ Zensmack (LastChild, Laughing Assassin, RazetheFlag, Wastrel, TruthbyDecree) - Working his way up the sock puppet chain, trying to overtake P'Doh. Or, are they the same? Quote me where I said conspiracists use evidence. - mchapman

7th March 2023, 12:33 PM	#283
GlennB Loggerheaded, earth-vexing fustilarian Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Wales Posts: 29,730	Originally Posted by Nessie Interfere with. Manslaughter requires a reckless act that a reasonable man would know had a good chance of causing death. Pedestrians shouting and gesticulating at cyclists has been going ever since cycles were invented and vice versa. That level of interference is not normally associated with death. The reasonable man would not think, better not shout at that cyclist in case they die. The reasonable man would not deliberately limit the cyclist to a < 1m width of pavement either.
	__________________ "There ain't half been some clever bastards" - Ian Dury

7th March 2023, 12:36 PM	#284
JoeMorgue Self Employed Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 44,144	A "reasonable" person would give the tiniest ounce of concern that they just killed someone, even if it wasn't "technically not my fault because the paperwork for this being a dual use path was printed on office and not legal size paper."
	__________________ "If everyone in the room says water is wet and I say it's dry that makes me smart because at least I'm thinking for myself!" - The Proudly Wrong.

7th March 2023, 12:38 PM	#285
Nessie Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 14,758	The reasonable cyclist would remember the Highway Code and that they need to take care passing pedestrians and the onus is on them to stay safe. She could have gone into the space between the pedestrian and fence, or stopped and let her pass, or stopped and checked the road and then moved off the pavement.
	__________________ Audiophile/biker/sceptic

7th March 2023, 12:54 PM	#286
Nessie Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 14,758	The trial Judge's sentencing comments; https://rozenberg.substack.com/p/why...ot-three-years A witness not previously discussed; "The court heard evidence from a number of witnesses, and I found William Walker to be reliable and thoughtful. He is a cyclist and driver. He said that you and Mrs Ward appeared to have come to a halt in front of each other and you made a lateral sweeping movement with your left arm which was directed at Mrs Ward. He said “it either made contact or she recoiled and fell”. The Judge admits uncertainty about the status of the pavement; "This was, I think, a shared path for cyclists..." The reason why the Judge considered the pedestrian to be reckless; "...my finding that the sweep of your arm was an intentional act but being reckless as to whether harm would be caused." The pedestrian did not just leave the scene "You offered assistance at the scene, but you were turned away by others."
	__________________ Audiophile/biker/sceptic

7th March 2023, 01:12 PM	#287
Bob001 Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: US of A Posts: 16,613	Originally Posted by Nessie .... The pedestrian did not just leave the scene "You offered assistance at the scene, but you were turned away by others." That seems pretty significant, since a lot of the comments here claim that she just kept going. In fact, she was told to go away.

7th March 2023, 01:18 PM	#288
Bob001 Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: US of A Posts: 16,613	Originally Posted by Nessie The reasonable cyclist would remember the Highway Code and that they need to take care passing pedestrians and the onus is on them to stay safe. She could have gone into the space between the pedestrian and fence, or stopped and let her pass, or stopped and checked the road and then moved off the pavement. Going back to the beginning, it appears that the cyclist was not operating a standard adult bicycle. The wheels are much smaller, and the handlebar stem is much taller. It may have been a folding bicycle. At low speeds that geometry would make the cycle harder to control, which is all the more reason she should have been walking through a narrow space.

7th March 2023, 02:06 PM	#289
lionking In the Peanut Gallery Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Melbourne Posts: 53,483	Originally Posted by RolandRat Losing her balance at the same moment the pedestrian moved her arm towards her. I think the pedestrians actions clear the "reasonable doubt" bar. She made a conscious decision to interfere with the cyclist and that interference led to the cyclists death. Indeed. Which is why she is in jail.
	__________________ A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject. Sir Winston Churchill

7th March 2023, 02:09 PM	#290
lionking In the Peanut Gallery Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Melbourne Posts: 53,483	Originally Posted by Bob001 Going back to the beginning, it appears that the cyclist was not operating a standard adult bicycle. The wheels are much smaller, and the handlebar stem is much taller. It may have been a folding bicycle. At low speeds that geometry would make the cycle harder to control, which is all the more reason she should have been walking through a narrow space. The contortions to excuse the pedestrian and blame the cyclist are truely amazing. “Appears to be”, “may have been”; all these things are irrelevant and the court have found them so.
	__________________ A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject. Sir Winston Churchill

7th March 2023, 02:13 PM	#291
lionking In the Peanut Gallery Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Melbourne Posts: 53,483	Originally Posted by Bob001 That seems pretty significant, since a lot of the comments here claim that she just kept going. In fact, she was told to go away. Who told her to leave? It was not the police who arrested her later. She may have been still ranting at the dying cyclist (hey, others are wildly speculating, why not me?), but she should not have left. It’s pretty widespread knowledge that you don’t leave the scene of an accident you were involved in.
	__________________ A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject. Sir Winston Churchill

7th March 2023, 02:37 PM	#292
Bob001 Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: US of A Posts: 16,613	Originally Posted by lionking The contortions to excuse the pedestrian and blame the cyclist are truely amazing. “Appears to be”, “may have been”; all these things are irrelevant and the court have found them so. I think there's plenty of blame to go around. I am not convinced that the pedestrian committed a crime by cursing and gesturing. And it is indisputable that the cyclist could have made other choices that would have kept her safe. "Get outta my way, I'm riding a bicycle!" is not a helpful attitude, either.

7th March 2023, 02:52 PM	#293
LondonJohn Penultimate Amazing Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 20,479	Originally Posted by Nessie I was mocking London John for his comment about the "pedestrian's forceful gesticulations". How do you know she did not just lose her balance as she slowed to pass the pedestrian? When was the last time you were on a bike and rode it at walking pace? It is hard to keep your balance at that speed. You were *mocking me*, huh? I see. Anyhow, that aside, it sounds like you're unaware of the (obvious) distinction between a) someone languidly and slowly moving their arm slightly outwards and b) someone forcefully and quickly moving their arm significantly outwards. Your ignorance on this point appears to be further compounded by an inability to comprehend why (b) might be (much) more likely to cause a cyclist to veer off-balance than (a).

7th March 2023, 02:53 PM	#294
LondonJohn Penultimate Amazing Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 20,479	Originally Posted by Nessie Interfere with. Manslaughter requires a reckless act that a reasonable man would know had a good chance of causing death. Pedestrians shouting and gesticulating at cyclists has been going ever since cycles were invented and vice versa. That level of interference is not normally associated with death. The reasonable man would not think, better not shout at that cyclist in case they die. It sounds like the court in this case understands the test for manslaughter a great deal better than you do.

7th March 2023, 03:42 PM	#295
lionking In the Peanut Gallery Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Melbourne Posts: 53,483	Originally Posted by Bob001 I think there's plenty of blame to go around. I am not convinced that the pedestrian committed a crime by cursing and gesturing. And it is indisputable that the cyclist could have made other choices that would have kept her safe. "Get outta my way, I'm riding a bicycle!" is not a helpful attitude, either. Oh you have a record of the cyclist saying that? That might change things.
	__________________ A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject. Sir Winston Churchill

7th March 2023, 04:16 PM	#296
JoeMorgue Self Employed Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 44,144	Originally Posted by Bob001 I think there's plenty of blame to go around. Well thank ******* God both sides are equally dead. No wait...
	__________________ "If everyone in the room says water is wet and I say it's dry that makes me smart because at least I'm thinking for myself!" - The Proudly Wrong.

7th March 2023, 10:48 PM	#297
Bob001 Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: US of A Posts: 16,613	Originally Posted by JoeMorgue Well thank ******* God both sides are equally dead. No wait... Not all tragedies are crimes.

7th March 2023, 11:10 PM	#298
lionking In the Peanut Gallery Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Melbourne Posts: 53,483	Originally Posted by Bob001 Not all tragedies are crimes. Sure. This one is though.
	__________________ A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject. Sir Winston Churchill

8th March 2023, 01:48 AM	#299
Nessie Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 14,758	Originally Posted by lionking The contortions to excuse the pedestrian and blame the cyclist are truely amazing. “Appears to be”, “may have been”; all these things are irrelevant and the court have found them so. Those are phrases used by the people seeking to excuse the cyclist from taking any responsibility for her own accident. It is sad, it is horrible, but people do silly things that end up resulting in their deaths. She chose to cycle in the gap between the angry pedestrian and the road. She could have gone for the other gap, which would put her on the side of the pavement normally associated with driving on the left, or she could have paused and even waited till the road was clear and moved on to it. All those claims about a push have now been shown to be false. If shouting and arm waving is reckless conduct, pedestrians will now have to be very careful and the law needs changing, to make cyclists priority over pedestrians.
	__________________ Audiophile/biker/sceptic

8th March 2023, 01:50 AM	#300
Nessie Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 14,758	Originally Posted by lionking Who told her to leave? It was not the police who arrested her later. She may have been still ranting at the dying cyclist (hey, others are wildly speculating, why not me?), but she should not have left. It’s pretty widespread knowledge that you don’t leave the scene of an accident you were involved in. Why have you not read what the Judge said? I even quoted him previously. "You offered assistance at the scene, but you were turned away by others."
	__________________ Audiophile/biker/sceptic

8th March 2023, 01:54 AM	#301
Nessie Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 14,758	Originally Posted by LondonJohn You were *mocking me*, huh? I see. Anyhow, that aside, it sounds like you're unaware of the (obvious) distinction between a) someone languidly and slowly moving their arm slightly outwards and b) someone forcefully and quickly moving their arm significantly outwards. Your ignorance on this point appears to be further compounded by an inability to comprehend why (b) might be (much) more likely to cause a cyclist to veer off-balance than (a). Remember the legal principle of beyond reasonable doubt? It means there has to be pretty much no doubt at all, that an act caused a result. Did she overbalance and lose her footing because of a shout and gesture, or because she had poor balance when slow cycling through a narrow gap? Or, was it a bot of both? That there is another perfectly reasonable cause that was either wholly or partially the cause of the death, means we cannot have beyond reasonable doubt.
	__________________ Audiophile/biker/sceptic

8th March 2023, 01:56 AM	#302
Nessie Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 14,758	Originally Posted by LondonJohn It sounds like the court in this case understands the test for manslaughter a great deal better than you do. By court, you mean jury. This case shows that the jury did not understand manslaughter. They should not have convicted based on that evidence. The Judge's remarks are about why he decided to send her to prison and how long for. He is not passing comment on the verdict, he has to just accept it.
	__________________ Audiophile/biker/sceptic

8th March 2023, 04:14 AM	#303
Puppycow Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Yokohama, Japan Posts: 27,967	Originally Posted by Bob001 There doesn't seem to be any doubt about her medical conditions. If she's partially blind and learning-impaired, I don't see how that's irrelevant. From another link: Quote: Grey has cerebral palsy, is partially blind, suffers from cognitive issues and has been living in shelter accommodation for most of her life. During sentencing, Judge Sean Enright said: "These actions are not explained by disability." https://news.yahoo.com/she-wont-cope...124113262.html This is not somebody you send to prison for waving and shouting. The cyclist failed to control her bike. What a weird world. You can't hold a person like that criminally responsible, can you? Particularly when there was no obvious intent to cause harm. It was a tragic accident, not a crime. Shame on the Judge.
	__________________ A fool thinks himself to be wise, but a wise man knows himself to be a fool. William Shakespeare

8th March 2023, 04:25 AM	#304
GlennB Loggerheaded, earth-vexing fustilarian Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Wales Posts: 29,730	Originally Posted by Puppycow What a weird world. You can't hold a person like that criminally responsible, can you? Particularly when there was no obvious intent to cause harm. It was a tragic accident, not a crime. Shame on the Judge. There are degrees of cerebral palsy, as there are with many ailments.
	__________________ "There ain't half been some clever bastards" - Ian Dury

8th March 2023, 04:29 AM	#305
GlennB Loggerheaded, earth-vexing fustilarian Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Wales Posts: 29,730	Originally Posted by Nessie By court, you mean jury. This case shows that the jury did not understand manslaughter. They should not have convicted based on that evidence. The Judge's remarks are about why he decided to send her to prison and how long for. He is not passing comment on the verdict, he has to just accept it. Your obvious clairvoyance and mind-reading skills perfectly equip you for a glittering career as a psychic.
	__________________ "There ain't half been some clever bastards" - Ian Dury

8th March 2023, 04:42 AM	#306
lionking In the Peanut Gallery Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Melbourne Posts: 53,483	Originally Posted by Nessie Why have you not read what the Judge said? I even quoted him previously. "You offered assistance at the scene, but you were turned away by others." I did read that. If it were the police who turned her away it would have been stated. Who turned her away?
	__________________ A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject. Sir Winston Churchill

8th March 2023, 04:45 AM	#307
lionking In the Peanut Gallery Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Melbourne Posts: 53,483	Originally Posted by GlennB There are degrees of cerebral palsy, as there are with many ailments. Indeed. People with cerebral palsy generally want to be treated as others are.
	__________________ A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject. Sir Winston Churchill

8th March 2023, 06:31 AM	#308
JoeMorgue Self Employed Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 44,144	Originally Posted by GlennB There are degrees of cerebral palsy, as there are with many ailments. Hers seemed to get a lot worse when she saw the cyclists for instance.
	__________________ "If everyone in the room says water is wet and I say it's dry that makes me smart because at least I'm thinking for myself!" - The Proudly Wrong. Last edited by JoeMorgue; 8th March 2023 at 06:45 AM.

8th March 2023, 07:42 AM	#309
Bob001 Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: US of A Posts: 16,613	Originally Posted by lionking Indeed. People with cerebral palsy generally want to be treated as others are. That's not her only issue. Her multiple disabilities are so severe that she has apparently lived in supervised care all her life.

8th March 2023, 07:50 AM	#310
Bob001 Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: US of A Posts: 16,613	Originally Posted by lionking I did read that. If it were the police who turned her away it would have been stated. Who turned her away? Why does it matter? Chances are the cops made some kind of general crowd control announcement like "Move along. Nothing to see..." without realizing her particular role. The point is that the judge took note of the fact that she didn't flee the scene and tried to help. He didn't say "... but you should have stayed anyway."

8th March 2023, 08:41 AM	#311
JoeMorgue Self Employed Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 44,144	Fine I'm convinced. This is the greatest injustice since Amanda Knox did a cartwheel. This women should be released from prison and should be allowed to push another cyclists into the street to compensate her for her pain and suffering.
	__________________ "If everyone in the room says water is wet and I say it's dry that makes me smart because at least I'm thinking for myself!" - The Proudly Wrong.

8th March 2023, 08:44 AM	#312
GlennB Loggerheaded, earth-vexing fustilarian Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Wales Posts: 29,730	Originally Posted by Bob001 That's not her only issue. Her multiple disabilities are so severe that she has apparently lived in supervised care all her life. And the judge made a point of saying "Her actions are not explained by her disability", or words very similar.

8th March 2023, 08:53 AM	#313
Nessie Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 14,758	Originally Posted by lionking I did read that. If it were the police who turned her away it would have been stated. Who turned her away? I am going to with the others being people who stopped to render assistance, such as the named witness, the driver of the car.
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8th March 2023, 11:29 AM	#314
Bob001 Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: US of A Posts: 16,613	Originally Posted by GlennB And the judge made a point of saying "Her actions are not explained by her disability", or words very similar. Even if that's true -- and I think there's room for debate -- it's still fair to ask what purpose is served by sending her to prison. She's essentially in custody already.

8th March 2023, 11:30 AM	#315
Bob001 Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: US of A Posts: 16,613	Originally Posted by JoeMorgue Fine I'm convinced. This is the greatest injustice since Amanda Knox did a cartwheel. This women should be released from prison and should be allowed to push another cyclists into the street to compensate her for her pain and suffering. She was not convicted of or charged with pushing the cyclist.