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Tags Recep Erdogan , Turkey issues , Turkey politics

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Old 10th February 2017, 07:36 AM   #1
Arcade22
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Erdogan mission to become sultan over Turkey nears completion

Quote:
Turkey’s president has approved a major constitutional reform bill granting him broad new powers under an executive presidential system, paving the way for a referendum on the bill on 16 April.

The 18-article bill was passed by parliament last month without garnering the two-thirds majority needed to become law.President Recep Tayyip Erdoğan’s approval allows the changes to go to a referendum in the deeply polarised country, which is still under emergency law.

The constitutional overhaul would allow Erdoğan to run for two more terms in office, potentially governing as a powerful executive until 2029. It is backed by the ruling Justice and Development party (AKP) and its nationalist allies in parliament.

Critics of the bill say it would lead to one-man rule with few checks and balances on the president by a loyalist parliament, allowing Erdoğan to consolidate power amid a widescale purge of civil servants and a crackdown on opposition media and political parties.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...-to-his-powers

Wasting no time while Turkey is on lockdown under a state of emergency Erdogan may finally get what he wanted for so long: to openly rule Turkey effectively as an autocrat with a rubber-stamp parliament.

He's not content with being de-facto most politically powerful individual, despite only being a largely ceremonial president. He must cement his place in history as the person who tore away the facade of democracy.
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Old 10th February 2017, 07:44 AM   #2
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Huh. It's almost literally Hitler.
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Old 10th February 2017, 08:02 AM   #3
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Huh. It's almost literally Hitler.
Putin is probably a better comparison.
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Old 10th February 2017, 08:08 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Putin is probably a better comparison.
I dunno. Changing the form of government to remove checks and balances, placing more power in the hands of a single executive, seems pretty Hitlerian.
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Old 10th February 2017, 08:12 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Huh. It's almost literally Hitler.
Pffft. Don't you know that on this forum we reserve Hitler comparisons for Trump?
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Old 10th February 2017, 08:14 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by Giz View Post
Pffft. Don't you know that on this forum we reserve Hitler comparisons for Trump?
I actually compare Trump more to Erdogan than Hitler.
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Old 10th February 2017, 08:18 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by twinstead View Post
I actually compare Trump more to Erdogan than Hitler.
I think Berlusconi is appropriate for Trump: venal, narcissistic, conflict of interests, buffoon.


Trump hasn't gone the Erdogan route yet. He bears watching, but it's not very similar so far.
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Old 10th February 2017, 08:24 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by Giz View Post
Trump hasn't gone the Erdogan route yet. He bears watching, but it's not very similar so far.
True, but he bears watching. Turkey and the US have more in common than many people know. Both are deeply devided
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Old 10th February 2017, 12:58 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I dunno. Changing the form of government to remove checks and balances, placing more power in the hands of a single executive, seems pretty Hitlerian.
It applies to both Putin and Hitler, and good many other "elected dictators" as well.
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Old 10th February 2017, 01:00 PM   #10
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I think the idea of Democracy is under attack now more then any other time since the 1940's.
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Old 10th February 2017, 01:01 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by twinstead View Post
True, but he bears watching. Turkey and the US have more in common than many people know. Both are deeply devided
True, but the US has a much stronger tradition of Democracy then Turkey did.
But agree that Trump needs to be closely watched.
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Old 10th February 2017, 02:26 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
True, but the US has a much stronger tradition of Democracy then Turkey did.
But agree that Trump needs to be closely watched.
The military had their history of pro democracy coups in turkey. Hopefully the US military would follow their example.
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Old 10th February 2017, 02:32 PM   #13
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THe fatal flaw with Turkey's constitution is that it was too easy to change. It should be hard to change a consituion...not impossible, but hard. That is one reason the US Constituion has survived.
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Old 10th February 2017, 03:52 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
The military had their history of pro democracy coups in turkey. Hopefully the US military would follow their example.
The moment coup d'etats become a thing, there is no going back. As Latin America how that turned out, with its regular Juntas.
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Old 10th February 2017, 04:02 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by NWO Sentryman View Post
The moment coup d'etats become a thing, there is no going back. As Latin America how that turned out, with its regular Juntas.
I'm concerned with the US adapting some sort of Lèse majesté laws. You'd be surprised how many Trump supporters I know who have no problem with the idea of people going to jail for defaming him
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Old 10th February 2017, 04:21 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by twinstead View Post
I'm concerned with the US adapting some sort of Lèse majesté laws. You'd be surprised how many Trump supporters I know who have no problem with the idea of people going to jail for defaming him
I am am still amazed that a full scale Personality Cult has sprung up in the US. We have usually been pretty resistant to that thing on a wide scale.
I don't think it will happen, though. The right to bitch about the POTUS is a right too many Americans like for it to be taken away without a monumental fight,which I doubt the Lese Majersters will win.

Last edited by dudalb; 10th February 2017 at 04:23 PM.
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Old 10th February 2017, 05:56 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I think the idea of Democracy is under attack now more then any other time since the 1940's.
I think it's more a matter of demcracy's defences being weaker now than anytime since the 30's. Just like then, for a lot of people democratic capitalism is no longer delivering. It delivered for most people until the Great Depression, and it did again until the Chicago School Discontinuity of 1979-80, but now the likes of Trump can appeal to a growing population for which it isn't delivering. I think of them as the Trumpen Proletariat.

The likes of Putin can point to Trump and say "That's what an unmanaged democracy throws up". The US has a Yeltsin period - is that what Russians want? Or the Chinese? I think not. Democracy is a bloody hard sell in the world today, as it was in the 30's.
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Old 10th February 2017, 06:14 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
True, but the US has a much stronger tradition of Democracy then Turkey did.
Turkey has less than a century's tradition of national statehood, let alone democracy. Born in war, for most of its national history Army and Nation have been synonymous. And, in the Middle East, nationalism and secularism were synonymous until very recently. Democracy had to be managed to keep religious influence out.
Quote:
But agree that Trump needs to be closely watched.
Don't look at him. Look at Bannon and the like.
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Old 10th February 2017, 06:19 PM   #19
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from twinstead :
Quote:
I'm concerned with the US adapting some sort of Lèse majesté laws. You'd be surprised how many Trump supporters I know who have no problem with the idea of people going to jail for defaming him
It would never get through Congress. Not even Republicans would pass what is in effect a gag-order on themselves.
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Old 10th February 2017, 08:08 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by CapelDodger View Post
from twinstead :


It would never get through Congress. Not even Republicans would pass what is in effect a gag-order on themselves.
The right to call the President Insulting names is very close to the heart of Americans,and any attempt to take it away would result in the political demise of anybody attempting it.
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Old 10th February 2017, 08:13 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by CapelDodger View Post
Turkey has less than a century's tradition of national statehood, let alone democracy. Born in war, for most of its national history Army and Nation have been synonymous. And, in the Middle East, nationalism and secularism were synonymous until very recently. Democracy had to be managed to keep religious influence out.
Don't look at him. Look at Bannon and the like.
By Trump I meant his entire administration.
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Old 11th February 2017, 05:57 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
THe fatal flaw with Turkey's constitution is that it was too easy to change. It should be hard to change a consituion...not impossible, but hard. That is one reason the US Constituion has survived.
No it has little to with how hard it is to change a constitution. The Swedish constitution is very easy to change yet it hasn't be modified to create a legal autocracy.

He's already de facto a dictator due to the more or less non-existent rule-of-law which is the main problem. If the US president was able to attain the amount of informal authority that Erdogan has your constitution would not be able to protect you either.
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Old 11th February 2017, 11:36 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
The military had their history of pro democracy coups in turkey. Hopefully the US military would follow their example.
Let's hope our other checks & balances do the job instead.
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Old 12th February 2017, 12:46 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by twinstead View Post
I actually compare Trump more to Erdogan than Hitler.

It's almost as it Erdogan is spoiler laden preview of Trump's near future moves.
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Old 12th February 2017, 11:43 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...-to-his-powers

Wasting no time while Turkey is on lockdown under a state of emergency Erdogan may finally get what he wanted for so long: to openly rule Turkey effectively as an autocrat with a rubber-stamp parliament.

He's not content with being de-facto most politically powerful individual, despite only being a largely ceremonial president. He must cement his place in history as the person who tore away the facade of democracy.
Constitutional change should be impossible during a state of emergency, and all law changes made during the state of emergency should at least be subject to review at a later date - preferably after an election - if not voided outright after the state of emergency ended. There should also be a hard limit on the amount of time the country can spend in a state of emergency, the pitiful 'coup' attempt last July certainly didn't warrant a state of emergency quite this long. Turkish constitution failed in providing these safeguards, it's not that easy to change after all.

There is a very slim hope that the referendum will be a failure. Polling is all over the place, from massive lead for Yes to a massive lead for No. It will likely be close. I also don't expect Erdogan to give up if it fails, he has another 7 years to solidify his dictatorship. The best-case scenario is that he would abuse his power to falsify the vote and fail regardless, leading to a massive backlash. Turks still have the chance to take their country away from deplorables, but it won't be very easy.

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Old 12th February 2017, 11:53 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by CapelDodger View Post
The likes of Putin can point to Trump and say "That's what an unmanaged democracy throws up".
Given the overwhelming similarities between the two, that's rather ironic.

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Old 13th February 2017, 03:01 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by halleyscomet View Post
It's almost as it Erdogan is spoiler laden preview of Trump's near future moves.
Erdogan is nothing like Trump in some important ways. He has continued the modernization of Turkey successfully in a material sense even as he has been taking it backwards in a religious sense. He is also very organised and hands on while Trump hates detail and work.
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Old 13th February 2017, 10:49 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by NWO Sentryman View Post
The moment coup d'etats become a thing, there is no going back. As Latin America how that turned out, with its regular Juntas.
Not at all, look at Turkey's history of pro democracy military coups. They managed several until Erdogan beat them.

If the military is loyal to the constitution and not the general then military coups can restore democracy.
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Old 13th February 2017, 08:28 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
Given the overwhelming similarities between the two, that's rather ironic.

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Putin and Trump? Apart from the machismo I don't see anything at all.

Putin's establishing his place in History : Trump has no concept of that. Trump sees himself as the end-point of History, the foundation of the US being but a step on the way and that Jesus guy, not a Mexican, way back, just another step.

Not necessarily what one would look for in a President, but there it is. Frankly, I'd prefer Putin.
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Old 13th February 2017, 08:37 PM   #30
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Germans have been enabling the Turks since I was a kid. In the early 70's, oddly enough, I was warned from going to the Moabit section of West Berlin since that's where the Turks hung out.

And the Germans kept importing gastarbeiter.

Led Zepplin had a song that fits this scenario (which we'll stick to in memory of Claus ...)

Nobody's Fault But Mine.
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Old 15th February 2017, 01:21 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by CapelDodger View Post
Putin and Trump? Apart from the machismo I don't see anything at all.
Disregard for democratic values, personal enrichment, rule by decree and a voting base made chiefly of deplorables?

I see plenty. The main difference is that checks and balances in US system seem to be working. They are being tested, but they're standing up to the test. For now anyway.

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Old 15th February 2017, 03:02 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Not at all, look at Turkey's history of pro democracy military coups. They managed several until Erdogan beat them.

If the military is loyal to the constitution and not the general then military coups can restore democracy.
That's a VERY big if.
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Old 15th February 2017, 03:59 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by CapelDodger View Post
from twinstead :

Quote:
I'm concerned with the US adapting some sort of Lèse majesté laws. You'd be surprised how many Trump supporters I know who have no problem with the idea of people going to jail for defaming him
It would never get through Congress. Not even Republicans would pass what is in effect a gag-order on themselves.
Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
The right to call the President Insulting names is very close to the heart of Americans,and any attempt to take it away would result in the political demise of anybody attempting it.
It's almost worth calling the highlighted people traitors if they think that.
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Old 15th February 2017, 09:44 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
Disregard for democratic values, personal enrichment, rule by decree and a voting base made chiefly of deplorables?
That's the end result (Trump's "rule by decree" is still aspirational, and Putin doesn't employ it) but carved from very different rock by very different personalities. It's a job-description for any number of historical characters, on the make or hanging on to what's already been made.

Quote:
I see plenty. The main difference is that checks and balances in US system seem to be working. They are being tested, but they're standing up to the test. For now anyway.
That the US system has survived this long is a testament to those who devised it, and those whose thoughts inspired them. I think it's undergoing a special test now, and showing every sign of a robust resistance. Far more robust than the assault.
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Old 15th February 2017, 09:53 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by Darth Rotor View Post
Germans have been enabling the Turks ...
That's a peculiar usage.

Quote:
... since I was a kid. In the early 70's, oddly enough, I was warned from going to the Moabit section of West Berlin since that's where the Turks hung out.
You missed out on some great food if you followed that advice.
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Old 15th February 2017, 10:13 PM   #36
CapelDodger
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Not at all, look at Turkey's history of pro democracy military coups. They managed several until Erdogan beat them.
When looked at more cynically these "pro-democracy" coups are more about freeing-up promotional opportunities, while maintaining the military's oversight of the nation.

Quote:
If the military is loyal to the constitution and not the general then military coups can restore democracy.
It's important to understand how closely Nation and Army have been identified in Turkey since its foundation in Ataturk's day. Until quite recently.

In the Middle East nationalism and religion have always been at odds, and an important role of the Turkish army was to keep religion out of politics. That used to be all nationalists' policy in the Middle East, including Israel, but it has been let slip drastically in the recent past. At least the Egyptian army had the wherewithall to grab control back again.
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God can make a cow out of a tree, but has He ever done so? Therefore show some reason why a thing is so, or cease to hold that it is so - William of Conches, c1150
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Old 16th February 2017, 04:16 AM   #37
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I had a pleasure of working with a German/Turk once. A genuinely nice guy.
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Old 22nd February 2017, 10:12 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by NWO Sentryman View Post
That's a VERY big if.
It worked in Turkey multiple times. They restored the constitution 4-5 times.
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Old 23rd February 2017, 05:36 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
It worked in Turkey multiple times. They restored the constitution 4-5 times.
As for Thailand or Latin America or Libya?
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Old 24th February 2017, 02:16 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by CapelDodger View Post
That's a peculiar usage.

You missed out on some great food if you followed that advice.
I got to Izmir in 85, 86, and 96. Good food indeed! Got to Istanbul in 97. One of the best three day trips ever.

Worked for Turk for three years in NATO. Both were solid guys, and my last two years of trying to find out if either is alive have come up empty. Not too hopeful, with the last few years of trouble in Turkey. Sadness comes to me ...
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