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Tags Recep Erdogan , Turkey issues , Turkey politics

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Old 11th March 2017, 06:47 PM   #41
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Major international incident

Erdogan and his Western-European goons of the EUTD (European Union of Turkish Democrats) have tried to organize political rallies where his ministers would campaign for the referendum in various European countries, which has led to a string of incidents. In the small German town of Guggenau, local authorities forbade the meeting because they feared for the public order. In Cologne, they had booked a hall for "a theater play". Neither the local authorities, nor the owner of the hall was very amused. This way, various planned rallies in Austria, Belgium, and Germany were called off. And at least in Germany, chancellor Merkel said that "in principle" Turkish ministers were welcome, while in all cases local authorities called the rallies off for various reason ranging from public order to fire safety.

This week, the Turkish Foreign Minister, Mr. Mevlut Cavusoglu, would hold a rally in Hoogvliet, a borough of Rotterdam, in the Netherlands. Also in this case, the hall was booked under a pretext and the owner annulled the booking.

Unlike in Germany, the national government stepped in and clearly said they didn't like the idea of Turkish minister coming here to hold rallies for Turkish politics. In fact, politicians of all stripes, from left to right, expressed their displeasure with the idea.

However, Erdogan kept himself deaf to the message, and changed the plan to the FM holding a speech from the balcony of the consulate in Rotterdam. The FM would fly in today (Saturday). In response, the Dutch government revoked his flight permit. Demonstrations by Turks ensued before the consulate. As a replacement speaker, the Turkish minster of Family Affairs, Ms. Fatma Betül Sayan Kaya came by car from Germany. She was intercepted by the police on the backyard of the consulate. The police summoned her out of her car but she refused. After an hours-long stand-off, and threatening to tow her car off, shortly after midnight she came out and was escorted in a police car to Germany, whence she came, as an unwanted alien.

According to the mayor of Rotterdam, Moroccan-born Aboutaleb, he had asked the Turkish consul after the flight refusal of the FM whether something else was afoot, but the consul had lied to him and had said no.

Erdogan has not minced his words. He has called the Dutch authorities nazis and fascists. Of course, the only fascist here is Erdogan who wants to abolish democracy with his constitutional changes. And those charges are especially galling considering 14 May 1940.

Ms. Kaya, from her car, cried that the Dutch authorities violated international law and human rights. Of course, that's also utter BS. As a minster, she's not an accredited diplomat, so she enjoys no immunity and the Dutch authorities can deport her as an unwanted alien. And there is no freedom of speech for anyone in the world to come to the Netherlands and spout their views, only for people that are already (legally) here.

ETA: also, in the course of the incident, Erdogan has threatened the Netherlands with sanctions. The Dutch ambassador to Turkey, who happened to be on leave, is not welcome to return to his post.
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Old 11th March 2017, 08:01 PM   #42
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Old 11th March 2017, 08:16 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
Ironically, that's very similar to the Russian line regarding Ukraine and Crimea.
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Old 12th March 2017, 06:05 AM   #44
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Quote:
The Dutch prime minister, Mark Rutte, said Kaya’s visit was “irresponsible” and she had defied requests from The Hague to stay away. “Since last week [foreign affairs] minister Bert Koenders and I have been constantly trying to de-escalate the situation,” he told WNL Op Zondag. “We need to talk about this.”

On Sunday Rutte called the Turkish government’s stance bizarre and unacceptable and called for talks to resolve the impasse. He said Turkey had crossed a diplomatic line. “This has never happened before,” he said, “a country saying someone is not welcome and then them coming regardless.”

During a standoff in Rotterdam lasting around four hours, Kaya accused police of violating “human rights, democracy and international law” by barring her entry to the consulate. Just after 1am she was led away to a car, protesting vocally, and escorted over the border to Germany, from where she flew back to Ankara by private jet.

...

Aboutaleb claimed Turkey’s consul general had given him false assurances that the minister would not be going to the consulate. “He lied flat-out. He called on people to come to the consulate where the minister would be giving a speech,” Aboutaleb said.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...ters-expulsion

Who the hell do these Turks think they are?
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Old 12th March 2017, 10:38 AM   #45
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Some background to the situation leading up to this incident.

First of all, immigration and integration of immigrants have been high on the political agenda, especially since the rise of Wilders, some ten years ago. Turks account for about one third of the non-western immigrants and thus form the largest group. Most of them actually have double nationality, so Erdogan and his cronies actually campaign for votes among Dutch citizens.

The way the Turkish government, directly or through proxies, has been reminding those immigrants that they're Turks first, and Dutch second, is quite unhealthy and counterproductive to their integration in Dutch society. We're not just talking here about the "guest workers" that came here in the 1960s and 1970s, but of their children and grandchildren who were born and raised here.

The recent Turkish political developments already have led to considerable unrest within the Turkish community in the Netherlands. For instance, as a consequence of the failed coup and the accusations against Gulen, many parents have withdrawn their children as students form schools that were perceived (right or wrong) as Gulen-schools, last September. The general consensus here is that we don't need further meddling by Turkish politicians which will undoubtedly increase the divisiveness.

Second, it's election time in the Netherlands too. This Wednesday, we have parliamentary elections and they're the most dramatic in terms of shifts ever, with the two government parties losing dramatically and the largest party expected to only get around 15% of the vote; and that may be Wilders.

The determination with which the government has acted has undoubtedly is influenced by Wilders as a factor in Dutch politics; nobody wants to be seen soft and give him a chance to pick up extra votes. But I don't think the stances of the various parties have been influenced by Wilders' presence in the political landscape.
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Old 12th March 2017, 10:45 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post


In a political talk show this afternoon, Dutch FM Bert Koenders said he was not planning on asking for apologies for those statements because he wouldn't get them anyway. That's soft.

I think he should send the Turkish ambassador home, close the Turkish consulates, and demand of Erdogan to apologize, while kneeling and laying a wreath before Zadkine's "Destroyed City"

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...Zadkine002.jpg

Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...ters-expulsion

Who the hell do these Turks think they are?
Indeed. Their behaviour is quite outrageous. An interesting question is also: why couldn't they wait two weeks with their rallies, until after our elections? From that article:
Quote:
Wilders, who is campaigning on a platform of “de-Islamising” the Netherlands, said on Twitter: “The Netherlands can see that these people are Turks, not Dutch. They have Dutch passports but they don’t belong here.”
How much I'd wanted to - I despise Wilders and all he stands for - it's hard to argue against that.
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Old 12th March 2017, 11:47 AM   #47
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Meanwhile the French government has authorized Turkish FM to speak at a rally in Metz tonight invoking the freedom of assembly. This decision has been widely critized in France.
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Old 12th March 2017, 05:20 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by Degeneve View Post
Meanwhile the French government has authorized Turkish FM to speak at a rally in Metz tonight invoking the freedom of assembly. This decision has been widely critized in France.
A bit more solidarity with other European countries would have been appreciated. According to Le Monde, the French FM Ayrault thinks there is no reason for interference with French politics. That's strange, I think Marine Le Pen can and will make the same talking points as Wilders. I note that there's a significant Turkish community in France (ca. 600,000), like in Germany and the Netherlands.

And this whole "freedom of assembly" or "freedom of speech" is a red herring. No country has to allow any alien inside its borders it doesn't like; not even within the EU: for instance, a couple of years ago a peer invited Wilders for a speech in the House of Lords, but the British government refused him entry.

And to make matters even more absurd: according to German weekly Die Zeit, the Turkish election law forbids politicians from campaigning abroad, and that paragraph was introduced by Erdogan's AKP in 2008.

There were more Turkish demonstrations today in Amsterdam.
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Old 12th March 2017, 06:00 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
I think he should send the Turkish ambassador home, close the Turkish consulates,
That would only be goose for the gander. Turkey has closed the Dutch embassy and consulates in Turkey "for security reasons".

Dutch PM Marc Rutte has further explained that he was in talks with the Turkish government over facilitating a small, restricted meeting of the Turkish FM; and that during those talks, the Turkish government already began to make threats of sanctions. That's when the Dutch government broke off the talks and revoked his flight permit. And subsequently, the Turkish government has actively called on Turks to gather at the Turkish consulate in Rotterdam.
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Old 13th March 2017, 12:04 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
Some background to the situation leading up to this incident.

First of all, immigration and integration of immigrants have been high on the political agenda, especially since the rise of Wilders, some ten years ago. Turks account for about one third of the non-western immigrants and thus form the largest group. Most of them actually have double nationality, so Erdogan and his cronies actually campaign for votes among Dutch citizens.
Dual citizenship needs to be abolished in most cases. I would only allow it among EU member states in EU, or if the country in question has a special relationship with EU (Norway, Switzerland, Iceland, Andorra, etc).

If you moved to another country, you're expected to integrate as well, and not seek to keep as much as possible of what you fled from. This should be readily apparent, but somehow it got lost in the multicultural agenda.

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Old 13th March 2017, 12:10 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
Dual citizenship needs to be abolished in most cases. I would only allow it among EU member states in EU, or if the country in question has a special relationship with EU (Norway, Switzerland, Iceland, Andorra, etc).

If you moved to another country, you're expected to integrate as well, and not seek to keep as much as possible of what you fled from. This should be readily apparent, but somehow it got lost in the multicultural agenda.

McHrozni
Isn't that a bit hard considering it's up to Turkey whether a Dutch citizen is considered a Turkish citizen or not? I'm not sure it'd work out diplomatically...
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Old 13th March 2017, 12:11 AM   #52
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Turks aren't overly enthusiastic for the change.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkis...#Opinion_polls

Polls are all over the place. Most favor "yes", but a few favor "no" by similar margins. Most pollsters consistently support either "yes" or "no", which implies a strong pollster bias. The desperate attempts to woo the foreign votes show AKP is far from confident in victory. They campaign among those who will not suffer (m)any ill effects from a yes vote, because they live in a free and open society (for now anyway). I heard Erdogan even promised a civil war if the vote was no.

Turkish wannabe Sultan claims Turkish friends failed at the democracy exam. The only thing that failed is the Turkish rule of law.

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Old 13th March 2017, 12:14 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by TubbaBlubba View Post
Isn't that a bit hard considering it's up to Turkey whether a Dutch citizen is considered a Turkish citizen or not? I'm not sure it'd work out diplomatically...
Not really, you can write citizenship laws in a way for the citizenship to be inconsistent with the citizenship with another country, and then write in exceptions.

If you're a Dutch citizen and accept Turkish citizenship, you're assumed to have renounced your Dutch citizenship, if you're a Turkish citizenship and are eligible for Dutch citizenship you need to renounce Turkish citizenship in order to get it and so on. Then you can write in that EU members, Norway, Switzerland, Andorra and such are exempt from the limitation.

Some countries practice that, here we see a perfect example of why tightening is needed.

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Old 13th March 2017, 01:29 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by CapelDodger View Post
I think it's more a matter of demcracy's defences being weaker now than anytime since the 30's. Just like then, for a lot of people democratic capitalism is no longer delivering. It delivered for most people until the Great Depression, and it did again until the Chicago School Discontinuity of 1979-80, but now the likes of Trump can appeal to a growing population for which it isn't delivering. I think of them as the Trumpen Proletariat.

The likes of Putin can point to Trump and say "That's what an unmanaged democracy throws up". The US has a Yeltsin period - is that what Russians want? Or the Chinese? I think not. Democracy is a bloody hard sell in the world today, as it was in the 30's.
This.

One observation certain not to be very popular is that democracy was always driven by elites as a practical solution to managing widely diverse interests. I sincerely doubt you can find anywhere, on left or right, more than a handful of people who even now, today, could provide a reasoned defense of democracy from first principles. A few snippets, a handful of disjointed quotes, some pretty slogans are the best you get. Democracy in the US, for example, is told as a series of hero myths, and is obsessed with divine providence, including hideous "manifest destiny" and "exceptionalism." How else could a reasoning adult ever come to the conclusion that, say, originalism is anything but a frontal contradiction of the very idea of democracy? Or, say, that an Invisible Hand is a god not to be provoked by something as unworthy as a voting public?

No, the real issue isn't even right or left, it is the persistent notion that there are ideas, dogmas and beliefs founded on rock and written in stone, absolute and unchanging. This gives us the idiotic giggling that persists today in the US about constantly evolving perspectives in science: "What, not in stone? Ha, you wrong, fall down bigtime, my deity pound you surely!" With that firmly in the cultural DNA, it is only a question of time before the prayerful line up before an idol and make one trembling sacrifice after another.

I am beginning to think the writing has been on the wall for some decades now, and that is that extreme concentration of wealth and oligarchy are, as it turns out, the permanent, long-term human condition. Power and wealth are in the business of self-preservation at any cost to others. Democracy was a passing opportunity embraced only when it served a purpose, arising and flourishing during that tiny blip in time when scarce labor and the industrial revolution coincided. That time has passed, and democracy is being dismembered piece by piece by mobs of evangelized zombies thinking they are defending something holy. Yeah, this sounds more like the bulk of history; no reason to think otherwise.
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Old 13th March 2017, 01:47 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by Hlafordlaes View Post
This.

One observation certain not to be very popular is that democracy was always driven by elites as a practical solution to managing widely diverse interests. I sincerely doubt you can find anywhere, on left or right, more than a handful of people who even now, today, could provide a reasoned defense of democracy from first principles. A few snippets, a handful of disjointed quotes, some pretty slogans are the best you get. Democracy in the US, for example, is told as a series of hero myths, and is obsessed with divine providence, including hideous "manifest destiny" and "exceptionalism." How else could a reasoning adult ever come to the conclusion that, say, originalism is anything but a frontal contradiction of the very idea of democracy? Or, say, that an Invisible Hand is a god not to be provoked by something as unworthy as a voting public?

No, the real issue isn't even right or left, it is the persistent notion that there are ideas, dogmas and beliefs founded on rock and written in stone, absolute and unchanging. This gives us the idiotic giggling that persists today in the US about constantly evolving perspectives in science: "What, not in stone? Ha, you wrong, fall down bigtime, my deity pound you surely!" With that firmly in the cultural DNA, it is only a question of time before the prayerful line up before an idol and make one trembling sacrifice after another.

I am beginning to think the writing has been on the wall for some decades now, and that is that extreme concentration of wealth and oligarchy are, as it turns out, the permanent, long-term human condition. Power and wealth are in the business of self-preservation at any cost to others. Democracy was a passing opportunity embraced only when it served a purpose, arising and flourishing during that tiny blip in time when scarce labor and the industrial revolution coincided. That time has passed, and democracy is being dismembered piece by piece by mobs of evangelized zombies thinking they are defending something holy. Yeah, this sounds more like the bulk of history; no reason to think otherwise.
The advantage of democracy over other known forms of government is similar to the advantages of capitalism over socialism. Small issues are resolved before they grow into bigger issues by a decentralized system of decision making. You can't ignore any issue by sweeping it under the rug for long. If you do so, someone will make a political issue out of it and take away some of your voters. Rulers are obliged to listen to all concerns and issues of the people and businesses, or they risk losing power.

Furthermore, another huge advantage of democracy is that it limits the power of government, which makes obtaining the crown less desirable (absolute power beats limited power), but much more importantly, it makes losing the power much more bearable.

A deposed absolute monarch and his loyalists face torture, death, exile or at least restricted personal liberty, for them and maybe for their families and friends as well. A defeated political candidate in a democracy can expect a comfortable pension (George H.W. Bush) or can even continue his career in a different position (John McCain). This takes away the incentive to hold the position by force of arms, come hell or high water, and makes for a much more stable government in the long run.

This is why democracy is the best form of government we know of. There is nothing emotional about it. Notice that these advantages remain in place even if the country is de-facto an oligarchy where powerful business interests run the country through their proxies in the government. The solutions won't be as good, and the society will be hampered if it comes to that, but the country, state or nation will still be better off in a democratic government.

Of course the principles of democracy all apply as well. Their contribution is much smaller than the above two however.

McHrozni
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Old 13th March 2017, 01:59 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
The advantage of democracy over other known forms of government is similar to the advantages of capitalism over socialism. Small issues are resolves before they grow into bigger issues by a decentralized system of decision making. You can't ignore any issue by sweeping it under the rug for long. If you do so, someone will make a political issue out of it and take away some of your voters. Rulers are obliged to listen to all concerns and issues of the people and businesses, or they risk losing power.
It's not even necessary for the voters to be particularly rational about it - the very threat of being held accountable substantially improves the way politicians govern.
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Old 13th March 2017, 02:02 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by TubbaBlubba View Post
It's not even necessary for the voters to be particularly rational about it - the very threat of being held accountable substantially improves the way politicians govern.
Yes. Even a poorly run populist democracy is still better than a dictatorship.
Not much better perhaps, but still better enough to mention.

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Old 13th March 2017, 05:20 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
The advantage of democracy over other known forms of government is similar to the advantages of capitalism over socialism. Small issues are resolved before they grow into bigger issues by a decentralized system of decision making. You can't ignore any issue by sweeping it under the rug for long. If you do so, someone will make a political issue out of it and take away some of your voters. Rulers are obliged to listen to all concerns and issues of the people and businesses, or they risk losing power.

Furthermore, another huge advantage of democracy is that it limits the power of government, which makes obtaining the crown less desirable (absolute power beats limited power), but much more importantly, it makes losing the power much more bearable.

A deposed absolute monarch and his loyalists face torture, death, exile or at least restricted personal liberty, for them and maybe for their families and friends as well. A defeated political candidate in a democracy can expect a comfortable pension (George H.W. Bush) or can even continue his career in a different position (John McCain). This takes away the incentive to hold the position by force of arms, come hell or high water, and makes for a much more stable government in the long run.

This is why democracy is the best form of government we know of. There is nothing emotional about it. Notice that these advantages remain in place even if the country is de-facto an oligarchy where powerful business interests run the country through their proxies in the government. The solutions won't be as good, and the society will be hampered if it comes to that, but the country, state or nation will still be better off in a democratic government.

Of course the principles of democracy all apply as well. Their contribution is much smaller than the above two however.

McHrozni
Thanks, McHrozni. Maybe I just needed to hear a defense. Maybe a whole slew of them. Not many voices singing that song these days.
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Old 13th March 2017, 06:04 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
Dual citizenship needs to be abolished in most cases. I would only allow it among EU member states in EU, or if the country in question has a special relationship with EU (Norway, Switzerland, Iceland, Andorra, etc).
One the one hand I agree with you.... serving two masters is asking for problems.
On the other hand... my kids have one Dutch parent and one Indian parent. Dual citizenship (which in this case is not allowed) would have been pretty handy for them.

Quote:
If you moved to another country, you're expected to integrate as well, and not seek to keep as much as possible of what you fled from. This should be readily apparent, but somehow it got lost in the multicultural agenda.
I don't quite agree... I don't see anything wrong with anyone keep their cultural background alive and well. As long as they don't break any laws, it should be fine.
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Old 13th March 2017, 08:15 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by Amazer View Post
One the one hand I agree with you.... serving two masters is asking for problems.
On the other hand... my kids have one Dutch parent and one Indian parent. Dual citizenship (which in this case is not allowed) would have been pretty handy for them.
Handy perhaps, but as this example demonstrates it leaves the door open for trouble in the future. It can be up to them to decide which citizenship they want, once they reach the age of majority, I have no problem with that, but in most cases you should be able to pick one and only one. The exceptions I noted above apply.

Quote:
I don't quite agree... I don't see anything wrong with anyone keep their cultural background alive and well. As long as they don't break any laws, it should be fine.
Integrate doesn't (necessarily) mean assimilate.

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Old 13th March 2017, 12:05 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
Yes. Even a poorly run populist democracy is still better than a dictatorship.
Not much better perhaps, but still better enough to mention.

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Agreed, but the problem is that populist Democracies ..particualry those with authoritarian leader...most of the time turn into dictatorships.
BTW what is going on in Turkey makes me admire the wisdom of the Founding Fathers all the more for making the US constitution so hard,though not impossible to amend.
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Old 13th March 2017, 01:21 PM   #62
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Hopefully Erdogan will die screaming in pain just before the election and only German comedians will show up - just to laugh at his funeral!!!
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Old 13th March 2017, 03:19 PM   #63
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Has Erdogan dragged out Turkey's claims to the Mosul area?
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Old 15th March 2017, 01:28 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Agreed, but the problem is that populist Democracies ..particualry those with authoritarian leader...most of the time turn into dictatorships.
That's true, and that's the main problem of populists in power. They abuse their positions to consolidate power.

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BTW what is going on in Turkey makes me admire the wisdom of the Founding Fathers all the more for making the US constitution so hard,though not impossible to amend.
Turkish constitution is hard enough to change, I think. Where it failed are safeguards of when it can change. Changing the constitution during a state of emergency should be a complete no-go. Violating laws to campaign for a constitutional change should never, ever happen either, the illegal (by Turkish law AKP introduced) campaigning in Netherlands by ministers alone should also be enough for courts to pull the plug on the change and prohibit it for one year or something like that.

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Old 15th March 2017, 01:29 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by fuelair View Post
Hopefully Erdogan will die screaming in pain just before the election and only German comedians will show up - just to laugh at his funeral!!!
If the constitutional change goes through (this is far from certain), I hope Erdogan will lose the election to a Kurd.
That would be true poetic justice par excellence.

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Old 15th March 2017, 05:37 AM   #66
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In a move common to many authoritarian leaders and dictators Erdogan is pointing fingers to enemies abroad, namely the Netherlands, Germany and more generally speaking the European Union.

On could of course hope that the Turkish people will be clever enough to realize that their worst enemy is already on the Turkish soil and resides in Ankara presidential palace. Unfortunately the nationalistic feelings are so strong among the Turkish people that this is far from granted.
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Old 15th March 2017, 07:06 AM   #67
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It's maybe time for the European Union and its Member States to seriously reconsider the blacklisting of the PKK as terrorist organisation...
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Old 15th March 2017, 07:22 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by Degeneve View Post
It's maybe time for the European Union and its Member States to seriously reconsider the blacklisting of the PKK as terrorist organisation...
One letter change might be sufficient...
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Old 15th March 2017, 07:34 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by Klimax View Post
One letter change might be sufficient...
Only if you permute the letters.

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Old 15th March 2017, 08:41 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
Only if you permute the letters.

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Old 15th March 2017, 02:40 PM   #71
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Of course this "playing tough for the audience" stuff works both ways, and it seems that Rutte and his party will come out by far the strongest of today's elections with around 30%, while Wilders' gang is fighting with two other parties over second place at around 19%.*

*of seats, thanks ddt below for the correction.
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Old 15th March 2017, 03:10 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
Of course this "playing tough for the audience" stuff works both ways, and it seems that Rutte and his party will come out by far the strongest of today's elections with around 30%, while Wilders' gang is fighting with two other parties over second place at around 19%.
Correction: those are seats in parliament, out of 150 total. So Rutte actually gets around 20% while Wilders gets around 13%.

Compared to the polls before the weekend, Rutte gained about 5%, probably mainly due to this incident. The "PM bonus" as it's called here.
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Old 15th March 2017, 03:36 PM   #73
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Some more interesting information has come out the last days.

Monday night, Rotterdam mayor Aboutaleb gave an extensive interview on Dutch TV. Before the whole incident, he had intelligence that Erdogan's cronies had first tried to book Ahoy, a Rotterdam music hall/velodrome with a capacity of about 17,000 people, and even the Gelredome soccer stadium with capacity 25,000. Eventually, they booked a wedding hall in the Rotterdam borough Hoogvliet with a capacity of a few hundred people. If the proprietor hadn't annulled the booking, Aboutaleb would have forbidden the meeting for public order reasons.

And when the Turkish minister of Family Affairs arrived in her car, with 12 bodyguards who might be armed, he dispatched a special police squad with the authorization to shoot. In the end, that was not necessary (and those bodyguards were not armed); she eventually left her car when threatened it would be towed away to Germany.

Meanwhile, Erdogan upped the ante. Not content with calling us Nazis, he accused the Dutch army of perpetrating the massacre of Srebrenica. That's the more disgusting when you consider that Turkey's official policy still is to deny the Armenian genocide and that it funds pseudo-historical "research" which should prove there was no such genocide.

He also advised people not to vote for either Wilders or PM Rutte; but as the whole country, and all political parties support Rutte in how he handled the case, Rutte actually significantly gained from this incident.

Well, not all political parties support Rutte. Two MPs of Turkish descent had defected the Labour party two years ago, and founded a new party called DENK. Just think of it as the Dutch chapter of the AKP. Tuesday afternoon, their leader Kuzu suddenly cancelled for the final TV debate that night, citing he didn't want to debate with Jan Roos for his xenophobic views. That's of course BS, he knew that he was paired with Jan Roos since early February. He was just afraid to have to take a stance with respect to Erdogan.
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Old 15th March 2017, 03:43 PM   #74
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Looks as though The Netherlands dodged a bullet in the elections.
I wonder if the chaos in the US had an impact with the idea do you really want to vote a Trump clone into office?
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Old 15th March 2017, 04:46 PM   #75
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
*of seats, thanks ddt below for the correction.

Seats, that is, not "of seats". Edit window just closed on me. Can't even blame the infographic on SPIEGEL, it said so right at the top.
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Old 15th March 2017, 05:20 PM   #76
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
Some more interesting information has come out the last days.

Monday night, Rotterdam mayor Aboutaleb gave an extensive interview on Dutch TV. Before the whole incident, he had intelligence that Erdogan's cronies had first tried to book Ahoy, a Rotterdam music hall/velodrome with a capacity of about 17,000 people, and even the Gelredome soccer stadium with capacity 25,000. Eventually, they booked a wedding hall in the Rotterdam borough Hoogvliet with a capacity of a few hundred people. If the proprietor hadn't annulled the booking, Aboutaleb would have forbidden the meeting for public order reasons.

And when the Turkish minister of Family Affairs arrived in her car, with 12 bodyguards who might be armed, he dispatched a special police squad with the authorization to shoot. In the end, that was not necessary (and those bodyguards were not armed); she eventually left her car when threatened it would be towed away to Germany.

Meanwhile, Erdogan upped the ante. Not content with calling us Nazis, he accused the Dutch army of perpetrating the massacre of Srebrenica. That's the more disgusting when you consider that Turkey's official policy still is to deny the Armenian genocide and that it funds pseudo-historical "research" which should prove there was no such genocide.

He also advised people not to vote for either Wilders or PM Rutte; but as the whole country, and all political parties support Rutte in how he handled the case, Rutte actually significantly gained from this incident.

Well, not all political parties support Rutte. Two MPs of Turkish descent had defected the Labour party two years ago, and founded a new party called DENK. Just think of it as the Dutch chapter of the AKP. Tuesday afternoon, their leader Kuzu suddenly cancelled for the final TV debate that night, citing he didn't want to debate with Jan Roos for his xenophobic views. That's of course BS, he knew that he was paired with Jan Roos since early February. He was just afraid to have to take a stance with respect to Erdogan.
How big a role did pointing at Donald Trump and asking "do you really want to elect a guy like that and bring chaos to The Netherlands" by the anti Wilders party play in the election?
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Old 15th March 2017, 05:30 PM   #77
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I wonder how Turkey's bid to join the EU is progressing. I can't help thinking that Erdogan could handle things a little better.
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Old 15th March 2017, 06:23 PM   #78
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
I wonder how Turkey's bid to join the EU is progressing. I can't help thinking that Erdogan could handle things a little better.
That door's slammed shut hopefully. As should be the case following his coup (counter coup?) that he used to claim greater powers for himself. I can only assume that he's either unconcerned about EU accession or that he is being deliberately antagonistic to claim victimization of some kind.

What I worried about was that this would give Wilders a greater chance in the elections, but maybe it has helped Rutte and Aboutaleb by allowing them an opportunity to stand up to Erdogan.
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Old 15th March 2017, 10:13 PM   #79
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
How big a role did pointing at Donald Trump and asking "do you really want to elect a guy like that and bring chaos to The Netherlands" by the anti Wilders party play in the election?
Maybe some, but there is also the fact that no matter how many people always shout they will vote for him, his total lack of any form of plans works against Wilders.

And in the dutch system a Trump like scenario is far harder to get due to the different way our votes are counted. The 'winner takes all' scenario in the US and the UK isn't used here, so it is extremely unlikely a single party will ever get a >50% majority in parliament and they will always need to form a coalition.

And since a coalition means making compromises and Wilders would prefer an Erdogan/Putin like way of governing where everyone who does not agree ends up in jail or with an accident, that is something he never does.
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Old 15th March 2017, 10:27 PM   #80
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Originally Posted by Lukraak_Sisser View Post

And since a coalition means making compromises and Wilders would prefer an Erdogan/Putin like way of governing where everyone who does not agree ends up in jail or with an accident, that is something he never does.
While I am no fan of Wilders, has he actually given any reason for thinking that anyone who doesn't agree with him would end up dead or in jail or given any reason for thinking he would rule like Putin or Erdogan?
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