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Tags Recep Erdogan , Turkey issues , Turkey politics

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Old 18th April 2017, 10:55 PM   #121
McHrozni
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Originally Posted by Darth Rotor View Post
1. Because they are stupid.
2. Their parents taught them such.
3. They see it as "sticking it to the man" where they live, which attitude they learned from the young people where they live.

How are you surprised? I am not surprised at all.
4. They don't have to live in it. They live in a liberal democracy, but want to see the country they see as "theirs" to be big and important. The lives of those who still live in their homeland don't' come into equation at all.

I suspect this one trumps the other three easy.

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Old 18th April 2017, 11:00 PM   #122
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
This article in the Dutch newspaper NRC has the referendum results abroad. In the five countries with the biggest Turkish communities - Belgium, Austria, Netherlands, France, and Germany - "yes" won with comfortable majorities.

Polls among Dutch Turks show that support for "yes" and for Erdogan in general is the strongest among youngsters, the second or third generation who were born here. I'm really flabbergasted why people who were born and raised in a democracy cheer on a dictator and vote in favour of dictatorship.
On the other hand in most of other countries they voted against including in Czech Republic and Russia. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkis...erseas_results)

It's interesting case. Might make fort very interesting article.
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Old 18th April 2017, 11:08 PM   #123
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Originally Posted by Klimax View Post
On the other hand in most of other countries they voted against including in Czech Republic and Russia. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkis...erseas_results)

It's interesting case. Might make fort very interesting article.
German Turks make up almost as much as all other abroad Turkish voters combined. German, French and Dutch ones combined - all strongly in favor - make up almost 60% of the votes. There were only a few thousand votes to gain in the Czech republic, and half that in Russia, as opposed to almost a quarter of a million in Germany. The much smaller voting bloc in Netherlands still outnumbered the combined vote in Russia in Czech republic by a factor of five.

This looks like a result of targeted campaigning than anything else.

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Old 19th April 2017, 01:25 AM   #124
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Originally Posted by Darth Rotor View Post
1. Because they are stupid.
2. Their parents taught them such.
3. They see it as "sticking it to the man" where they live, which attitude they learned from the young people where they live.

How are you surprised? I am not surprised at all.
The discrepancy between voting by older people and younger people means that (2) is not an explanation.

Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
4. They don't have to live in it. They live in a liberal democracy, but want to see the country they see as "theirs" to be big and important. The lives of those who still live in their homeland don't' come into equation at all.

I suspect this one trumps the other three easy.
I think this combined with (1). Anecdotal evidence (street interviews as shown in news shows) shows that people easily follow for slogans like "we need a strong government" and "we need to be united".

Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
German Turks make up almost as much as all other abroad Turkish voters combined. German, French and Dutch ones combined - all strongly in favor - make up almost 60% of the votes.
Make that 70%. Yes, the Dutch article I linked to had the circles in its graphic related to the size of the electorate.

Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
This looks like a result of targeted campaigning than anything else.
That looks like it. What makes the Turks in Luxembourg different than those in its three neighbors Belgium, Germany and France? They voted in opposite direction.
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Old 19th April 2017, 09:36 AM   #125
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Two remarks on the topic:

1. I don't like Erdogan, I don't like this change of the constitution, it should be covered - but it gets one hell more coverage here in Germany than befits its actual importance. Somehow, this sets into heightened alert mode my BS receptors.

2. The vote was actually on a proposal to rearrange political powers and shift some towards the office of President. The office. It was presented on all sides however as a vote for or against Erdogan and him, personally, gaining power. What all voters should have been asked is: Would you vote "Yes" or "No" on the actual question of the referendum if you knew that next year, the (or a) leader of the opposition became President? Or, say, a secular Kurd? If that idea scares you, vote "No".
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Old 19th April 2017, 09:42 AM   #126
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Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
Two remarks on the topic:...

2. The vote was actually on a proposal to rearrange political powers and shift some towards the office of President. The office. It was presented on all sides however as a vote for or against Erdogan and him, personally, gaining power. What all voters should have been asked is: Would you vote "Yes" or "No" on the actual question of the referendum if you knew that next year, the (or a) leader of the opposition became President? Or, say, a secular Kurd? If that idea scares you, vote "No".
Kind of hard to do when Erdogan was jailing reporters and suppressing press freedom.
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Old 19th April 2017, 10:26 AM   #127
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Kind of hard to do when Erdogan was jailing reporters and suppressing press freedom.
What is kind of hard to do? Asking the question I suggested? Well, yes, Turkish press is not free, but there are other countries where Turks voted, there are still social media, and of course the Turkish opposition was able to campaign. To some degree at least.
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Old 19th April 2017, 10:28 AM   #128
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Originally Posted by CapelDodger View Post
First they'll come for the Kurds ...

I have to say I'm finding the future a bloody disappointment.
Look at it this way: maybe it's the present that's wrong.
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Old 19th April 2017, 10:30 AM   #129
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
Polls among Dutch Turks show that support for "yes" and for Erdogan in general is the strongest among youngsters, the second or third generation who were born here. I'm really flabbergasted why people who were born and raised in a democracy cheer on a dictator and vote in favour of dictatorship.
Maybe because they didn't have to fight for democracy, have forgotten the sacrifices made for it, and they don't understand how much better it is than the alternatives.
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Old 19th April 2017, 01:18 PM   #130
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Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
Two remarks on the topic:

1. I don't like Erdogan, I don't like this change of the constitution, it should be covered - but it gets one hell more coverage here in Germany than befits its actual importance. Somehow, this sets into heightened alert mode my BS receptors.
First, Turkey is an ally that is important right now due to the Syrian civil war, and the resulting stream of refugees, and the deal with them.

Second, Turks are by far the biggest immigrant group by nationality/descent (how do you say "türkischstämmisch" in English?), there was active campaigning in Germany plus rows about cancelled election rallies, and the whole debate caused deep divisions within the German-Turkish community. Much the same as in the Netherlands.

Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
2. The vote was actually on a proposal to rearrange political powers and shift some towards the office of President. The office. It was presented on all sides however as a vote for or against Erdogan and him, personally, gaining power. What all voters should have been asked is: Would you vote "Yes" or "No" on the actual question of the referendum if you knew that next year, the (or a) leader of the opposition became President? Or, say, a secular Kurd? If that idea scares you, vote "No".
It's not a bit more power to the president. The changes are designed to hollow out the checks and balances between the three powers of state in favour of the president.

Human Rights Watch:
Quote:
The creation of an executive presidency, proposed by President Recep Tayyip Erdoğan and the ruling Justice and Development Party (AKP), would be the most significant change to Turkey’s political institutions since the introduction of the multiparty election system in 1950. It would give the president power to appoint ministers, legislate by decree, dissolve and reconstitute parliament, and control judicial appointments. The changes would abolish the post of prime minister and weaken parliamentary oversight of the executive, including by ending no confidence motions and not allowing members of parliament to question the president.
The Council of Europe's Venice Commission:
Quote:
130. In the light of the above, the Venice Commission finds that the proposed constitutional amendments would introduce in Turkey a presidential regime which lacks the necessary checks and balances required to safeguard against becoming an authoritarian one.
I haven't looked myself in detail into the changes, but those are the experts in this stuff.

I wouldn't trust anyone with that, whether they're Erdogan, a Kemalist, or a left-wing Kurd (let alone a Grey Wolf). But realistically, who will be elected as first president under that constitution, what with Erdogan now being president, the country still in a state of emergency and no free press?
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Old 19th April 2017, 01:29 PM   #131
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Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
What is kind of hard to do? Asking the question I suggested? Well, yes, Turkish press is not free, but there are other countries where Turks voted, there are still social media, and of course the Turkish opposition was able to campaign. To some degree at least.
Surely suppression of free speech within Turkey was not without consequences. I'm not quite sure if you are defending the election as free and fair or not, but I think it was not.

2015: Erdogan has all but destroyed Turkish journalism

2016: Turkey’s Free Press Withers as Erdogan Jails 120 Journalists

Human Rights Watch report on Silencing Turkey’s Media - The Government’s Deepening Assault on Critical Journalism
Quote:
Five trends stand out: first the use of the criminal justice system to prosecute journalists for terrorism, insulting public officials, or crimes against the state; second, threats and physical attacks on journalists and media outlets; third, government interference with editorial independence and pressure on media organizations to fire critical journalists; fourth, the government takeover or closure of private media companies; and fifth, fines, restrictions on distribution and closure of critical television stations. A sixth trend, the blocking of online news websites or internet access in general, is not discussed in this report. The large number of restrictions Turkey places on internet freedom constitutes an area of study in its own right.
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Old 19th April 2017, 02:49 PM   #132
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And here's Open Democracy's take on the constitutional changes:
Quote:
The constitutional reform in Turkey of 2016 and the conditions under which it is being pushed through recall legal procedures like the Enabling Act 1933 by which the Nazis came to power in Germany in the 1930s. This has been noted by many international and in particular German, Austrian and Swiss media including ‘Die Tagesschau’, ‘Der Standard’ and ‘Neue Zuricher Zeitung’.
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Old 20th April 2017, 11:11 PM   #133
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
I wouldn't trust anyone with that, whether they're Erdogan, a Kemalist, or a left-wing Kurd (let alone a Grey Wolf). But realistically, who will be elected as first president under that constitution, what with Erdogan now being president, the country still in a state of emergency and no free press?
Changing the constitution during a state of emergency is a big deal by itself. The only time it should be allowed if it is to allow the state to deal with the emergency itself because the constitution precludes that possibility. For example if most of your judges get killed by a volcano and you can't appoint new Supreme court judges because you don't have any with the experience demanded by the constitution or something like that.

Given that the changes won't take place until 2019 it is evident these changes have nothing to do with the current state of emergency.

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Old 30th April 2017, 10:23 AM   #134
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More fun news. On Saturday, another 4,000 civil servants were dismissed, Wikipedia was blocked, and daytime "matchmaking" shows were banned from TV.
The dismissals are a continuation of the witch hunt that started after the coup attempt. The Wiki block was due to articles and comments on the site which were critical of the government. The TV show ban happened because government officials deemed that these shows undermine the sanctity of the family (where have you heard that before?). The shows, despite being quite cringey, were rather popular.
This kind of stuff will only continue and get worse as time goes on. I don't think Erdogan is going to give any quarter, despite the closeness of the referendum vote. As he said in his CNN interview, he has a background in football and it doesn't matter if you win 1-0 or 5-0. A victory is a victory.
Don't be surprised if the death penalty comes back and you see coup plotters getting executed soon.
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Old 30th April 2017, 11:07 AM   #135
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
First, Turkey is an ally that is important right now due to the Syrian civil war, and the resulting stream of refugees, and the deal with them.

Second, Turks are by far the biggest immigrant group by nationality/descent (how do you say "türkischstämmisch" in English?), there was active campaigning in Germany plus rows about cancelled election rallies, and the whole debate caused deep divisions within the German-Turkish community. Much the same as in the Netherlands.


It's not a bit more power to the president. The changes are designed to hollow out the checks and balances between the three powers of state in favour of the president.

Human Rights Watch:


The Council of Europe's Venice Commission:


I haven't looked myself in detail into the changes, but those are the experts in this stuff.

I wouldn't trust anyone with that, whether they're Erdogan, a Kemalist, or a left-wing Kurd (let alone a Grey Wolf). But realistically, who will be elected as first president under that constitution, what with Erdogan now being president, the country still in a state of emergency and no free press?
I assume that absent a sudden death of E. there will not be a different president (dicktator) for a while!!!!
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Old 30th April 2017, 11:08 AM   #136
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Hopefully he will take a bomb soon. And not survive.

And may the others who need the same have them soon and with finality!!!!!
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Old 1st May 2017, 08:02 AM   #137
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Erdogan is a mad sultan living in a huge palace. His treatment of the Kurds is abominable. He gives support to Al Qaeda groups in Syria. He was the one who broke the truce with the Kurds a couple of years ago. Isis blow up a Kurdish students peace rally in Turkey and then immediately Erdogan goes off with his air force to bomb to death about seventy Kurds in the hills. It defies logic and common sense. He has said before that he admires Hitler. I suppose he's needed for an attack on Iran, with Israel and Saudi Arabia and the Emirates.
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Old 1st May 2017, 09:20 AM   #138
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They've also attacked Kurdish targets in both Iraq and Syria last Tuesday, to the "concern" of Washington. And after the Kurds demanded more than concern, US military appeared at the border in convoys flying both YPG and US flags. And contrary to the theater played for the brainwashed masses, the Russian military repeated in the West of the Kurdish reagion what the US did in the East, showing up with the YPG at the Turkish border.
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Old 2nd May 2017, 03:43 AM   #139
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Originally Posted by FenerFan View Post
Don't be surprised if the death penalty comes back and you see coup plotters getting executed soon.
That would be grounds to start sending arms to anyone who will fight the new Turkish government all by itself.

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Old 2nd May 2017, 06:51 AM   #140
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And, of course given this as the target: Erdogan mission to become sultan over Turkey nears completion perhaps he will get a scimitar in the back from the chief guard of his harem or a slit throat (shaving accident of course) from his Grand Vizier/Wazir!!!!! Either of these would be a fitting end for the *******.
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Old 2nd May 2017, 08:47 AM   #141
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Originally Posted by fuelair View Post
And, of course given this as the target: Erdogan mission to become sultan over Turkey nears completion perhaps he will get a scimitar in the back from the chief guard of his harem or a slit throat (shaving accident of course) from his Grand Vizier/Wazir!!!!! Either of these would be a fitting end for the *******.
Nothing as crude as that, I think. Strangulation with a silk handkerchief probably. They might even offer him the chance to save his life by running a foot race against the head gardener across the grounds of Topkapı Palace.

http://www.smithsonianmag.com/histor...ace-164064882/
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Old 18th May 2017, 10:19 AM   #142
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Erdogan arrongance has already hurt him badly with the US. His sending over goons to beat up anti Erdogan demonstrators in DC has done the impossible:gotten everybody...Democrats, Republicans, Trump....on the same page :That his will have bad repurcessions for Turkey.
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Old 18th May 2017, 10:22 AM   #143
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Erdogan arrongance has already hurt him badly with the US. His goons to beat up anti Erdogan demonstrators in DC has done the impossible:gotten the Democrats and Republicans in Congress to be on the same page:This is going to have bad consequences for Erdogan.
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Old 18th May 2017, 11:59 AM   #144
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Erdogan arrongance has already hurt him badly with the US. His sending over goons to beat up anti Erdogan demonstrators in DC has done the impossible:gotten everybody...Democrats, Republicans, Trump....on the same page :That his will have bad repurcessions for Turkey.
Don't be so sure....
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Old 18th May 2017, 01:26 PM   #145
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
That was before the demonstration. SInce the, I think Donnie has been quiet about Erdogan,except for the State Department condemnation. Donnie does another 180 degree turn.
Anyway, the congressional condemnation has been bi partisan with outrage from both parties. Really ham fisted move by Erdogan.
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Old 18th May 2017, 02:30 PM   #146
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post

... what a weird link. I do not watch Twitter much, but this is another dimension for me. Too old.


It’s running away from me
I was there when it was born
From type to print
From write to type
I saw its being

The games that grew
Companies too
Making efficiency
Another new brand
Another form

I can understand
The pics
Videos, Tubes
But twits
And Tweets
It’s running away from me
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Old 18th May 2017, 06:02 PM   #147
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
That was before the demonstration. SInce the, I think Donnie has been quiet about Erdogan,except for the State Department condemnation. Donnie does another 180 degree turn.
Anyway, the congressional condemnation has been bi partisan with outrage from both parties. Really ham fisted move by Erdogan.
Donnie may have been quiet, but the tweet hasn't been deleted. Erdogan is exactly the kind of "leader" Trump wants to be.
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Old 19th May 2017, 11:54 AM   #148
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
Donnie may have been quiet, but the tweet hasn't been deleted. Erdogan is exactly the kind of "leader" Trump wants to be.
Luckily, Trump is a lot dumber then Erdogan.
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Old 19th May 2017, 12:47 PM   #149
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Luckily, Trump is a lot dumber then Erdogan.
Trump is more like Berlusconi in the sense that he wants the sleaze and the image rather than the actual work.
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Old 19th May 2017, 12:58 PM   #150
dudalb
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Originally Posted by NWO Sentryman View Post
Trump is more like Berlusconi in the sense that he wants the sleaze and the image rather than the actual work.
I have made that comparasion myself.
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Old 19th May 2017, 01:22 PM   #151
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
Donnie may have been quiet, but the tweet hasn't been deleted. Erdogan is exactly the kind of "leader" Trump wants to be.
One that closes down media organisations and locks up journalists.
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Old 19th May 2017, 02:32 PM   #152
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Originally Posted by NWO Sentryman View Post
Trump is more like Berlusconi in the sense that he wants the sleaze and the image rather than the actual work.
I would also like that.

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Old 20th May 2017, 08:27 AM   #153
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Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
One that closes down media organisations and locks up journalists.

... while literally looking like clowns. Which is true for all the political figures mentioned.

So since Erdogan has to be reelected to get the new privileges he just enacted with the help of his "good Germans", when are the next elections enabling him as the "Sultan in chief"?
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Old 23rd May 2017, 08:10 AM   #154
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The next election in scheduled for October of 2019. However, Erdoğan can call for an early election whenever he wants. The recent vote for the reforms was very close. Also, a lot of people, including myself, are certain that the vote was rigged. I don't think he will call for elections any time soon. He'll use the time to further marginalize his opponents and shut down groups that speak against him. Needless to say, he feels like he must win the next election. He'll continue to do what he has to do to eliminate his opposition. We've seen what his thugs did in DC. There are a lot more of them here and no pesky press to criticize them.
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Old 23rd May 2017, 08:13 AM   #155
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Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
One that closes down media organisations and locks up journalists, seizes assists of political opponents, arrests locally elected HDP members and replaces them with cronies, shuts down NGOs, and rewards loyalists with lucrative contracts.
You forgot a few.
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Old 23rd May 2017, 01:08 PM   #156
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Originally Posted by FenerFan View Post
The next election in scheduled for October of 2019. However, Erdoğan can call for an early election whenever he wants. The recent vote for the reforms was very close. Also, a lot of people, including myself, are certain that the vote was rigged. I don't think he will call for elections any time soon. He'll use the time to further marginalize his opponents and shut down groups that speak against him. Needless to say, he feels like he must win the next election. He'll continue to do what he has to do to eliminate his opposition. We've seen what his thugs did in DC. There are a lot more of them here and no pesky press to criticize them.
Don't the changes kick in only after the elections anyway?

I doubt the referendum did the AKP much good. We'll see how it goes.

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Old 23rd May 2017, 09:30 PM   #157
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The changes will phase in over time. After the next election the post of PM will be abolished and Turkey will just have a President with extended power.
However, Turkey's state of emergency will continue until July which gives him and the government special rights. We have seen how it has been used to jail and fire people since the coup attempt. Hopefully, it won't be extended again in July.
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Old 23rd May 2017, 10:56 PM   #158
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Originally Posted by FenerFan View Post
However, Turkey's state of emergency will continue until July which gives him and the government special rights. We have seen how it has been used to jail and fire people since the coup attempt. Hopefully, it won't be extended again in July.
That's the true coup'd etat Turkey suffered. A year-long state of emergency due to an aborted and unsuccessful coup is excessive. Changing the constitution during the state of emergency in order to strengthen the people currently in power is obscene.

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Old 24th May 2017, 06:33 AM   #159
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Originally Posted by FenerFan View Post
The changes will phase in over time. After the next election the post of PM will be abolished and Turkey will just have a President with extended power.
However, Turkey's state of emergency will continue until July which gives him and the government special rights. We have seen how it has been used to jail and fire people since the coup attempt. Hopefully, it won't be extended again in July.
Oh my sweet summer child.
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Old 24th May 2017, 11:59 AM   #160
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Originally Posted by NWO Sentryman View Post
Oh my sweet summer child.
Yeah, that is just about the oldest trick in the book for dictators:Give yourself power on a "temporary" basis; but then slant the political systems so that an extension of the "Temporary" power becomes almost automatic.
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