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Tags Canada economy , nafta , US-Canada relations

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Old 25th April 2017, 08:09 AM   #1
The Don
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US/Canada Trade War ?

Headline from the BBC:

Quote:
Has the US started a lumber trade war with Canada?
Bettridge's law of headlines would say that the correct response is "No"

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-39708779

Is this a case of having failed to strongarm China, North Korea or even the House, Trump is turning his attention to his polite northern neighbour ?

Quote:
US President Donald Trump has been sending Canada mixed messages on trade, initially offering assurances that Nafta will only need "tweaks" but recently singling out Canada's softwood lumber and dairy industries for criticism.
In truth it looks like the latest in a long line of NAFTA related minor squabbles but I'm sure Trump will portray it as him starting to fix the "terrible deals" the US has...
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Old 25th April 2017, 08:19 AM   #2
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
In truth it looks like the latest in a long line of NAFTA related minor squabbles but I'm sure Trump will portray it as him starting to fix the "terrible deals" the US has...: rolleyes :
He'll be in good company: The BBC is already portraying it as an all-out Trade War. "Rolleyes" indeed.
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Old 25th April 2017, 08:24 AM   #3
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Is this a case of having failed to strongarm China, North Korea or even the House, Trump is turning his attention to his polite northern neighbour ?
We're not that polite. Prick us, do we not bleed? Tickle us, do we not laugh? Wrong us, do we not burn down the White House?

Seriously, though, this is a terrible idea for both countries.
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Old 25th April 2017, 09:45 AM   #4
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It never ends.

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Old 25th April 2017, 09:55 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Headline from the BBC:



Bettridge's law of headlines would say that the correct response is "No"

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-39708779

Is this a case of having failed to strongarm China, North Korea or even the House, Trump is turning his attention to his polite northern neighbour ?



In truth it looks like the latest in a long line of NAFTA related minor squabbles but I'm sure Trump will portray it as him starting to fix the "terrible deals" the US has...
Interesting how this effects the northwest and the dems seem to be in complete favour of it. You simply can't have other countries dumping their goods on us, closing down our sawmills, towns and people's lives.
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Old 25th April 2017, 09:57 AM   #6
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Besides since no one really lives up their and isn't building anything, it will hurt Canada more than us. Maybe the Canadians ought to put a terrif on oil, maybe that will help.
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Old 25th April 2017, 12:20 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by logger View Post
Interesting how this effects the northwest and the dems seem to be in complete favour of it. You simply can't have other countries dumping their goods on us, closing down our sawmills, towns and people's lives.
What are the Dems in complete favor of? And which Dems specifically?
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Old 25th April 2017, 01:06 PM   #8
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Seems like Canada might be the new victim of Trump's ignorance. He's claiming they have a "tremendous" trade surplus with the US, it's actually a $15 billion deficit (exports $280 billion v. imports $295 billion) and that Canadian politicians have "outsmarted our politicians" for years.
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Old 25th April 2017, 03:15 PM   #9
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Logger, I suspect you're about 30-40 years late to save the PNW logging industry.
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Old 25th April 2017, 04:13 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by logger View Post
Interesting how this effects the northwest and the dems seem to be in complete favour of it. You simply can't have other countries dumping their goods on us, closing down our sawmills, towns and people's lives.
Do you need the government to protect you from the effects of the big bad free market? Nice about face there.
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Old 25th April 2017, 04:21 PM   #11
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Canada is trolling the Orange Menace.
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Old 25th April 2017, 04:41 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
Do you need the government to protect you from the effects of the big bad free market? Nice about face there.
The reports are Canada is subsidising its timber industry. So not quite the free market there chief. But as usual I'm happy to inform you.
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Old 25th April 2017, 04:42 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by deadrose View Post
Logger, I suspect you're about 30-40 years late to save the PNW logging industry.
You mean they aren't cutting anymore timber there?
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Old 25th April 2017, 04:43 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by Spindrift View Post
What are the Dems in complete favor of? And which Dems specifically?
Some much needed reading for you.
https://theconservativetreehouse.com...import-tariff/
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Old 25th April 2017, 04:50 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by logger View Post
The reports are Canada is subsidising its timber industry. So not quite the free market there chief. But as usual I'm happy to inform you.
Reports? No proof?
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Old 25th April 2017, 04:53 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by logger View Post
Some much needed reading for you.
https://theconservativetreehouse.com...import-tariff/
So the Dems of the northwest are in favor of the tariff. Is that some kind of surprise?
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Old 25th April 2017, 04:53 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by Spindrift View Post
Reports? No proof?
Only the proof of cheap lumber and dem senators happy with Trumps decision.
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Old 25th April 2017, 04:54 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by Spindrift View Post
So the Dems of the northwest are in favor of the tariff. Is that some kind of surprise?
No, nothing gets past you! Does that give you another clue?
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Old 25th April 2017, 04:55 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by logger View Post
You mean they aren't cutting anymore timber there?
Who said that?

Just because an industry still exists doesn't mean it's as robust as it once was.
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Old 25th April 2017, 04:56 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by logger View Post
No, nothing gets past you! Does that give you another clue?
How about actually stating what you mean instead of silly asinine riddles?
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Old 25th April 2017, 04:56 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by Spindrift View Post
Who said that?

Just because an industry still exists doesn't mean it's as robust as it once was.
Another clue! Why isn't it as robust as it once was?
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Old 25th April 2017, 04:57 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by logger View Post
Another clue! Why isn't it as robust as it once was?
Edited by Agatha:  Edited incivility
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Last edited by Agatha; 4th May 2017 at 04:18 AM.
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Old 25th April 2017, 04:57 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by Spindrift View Post
Reports? No proof?
There's a lobbying effort to redefine what subsidizing is in this case.

Quote:
At the heart of the trade quarrel is that the majority of Canadian lumber comes from Crown lands, managed by provincial governments. In the U.S. timber is harvested from private lands meaning the stumpage price is generally higher.

The U.S. Lumber Coalition, a powerful lobby group, claims this has led to Canada’s pricing of lumber being artificially low. The Canadian government maintains that timber sold at Crown auctions are designed to reflect market rates.

“What they are saying in the U.S. is the Canadian government is essentially giving this land away cheaper than it should be and that is an illegal subsidy,” BMO economist Alex Koustas told Global News. “However, it’s been established through a number of panels and resolution panels that is not the case.”

Both resolution panels from the World Trade Organization and under the North American Free Trade Agreement had found that Canadian softwood lumber production is not subsidized.
As noted it hasn't gone well when put to the test.
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Old 25th April 2017, 04:58 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by Spindrift View Post
Reports? No proof?
It opens up a whole philosophical question about "What is a subsidy?"

In this case, the argument is that since BC stumpage fees are lower than WA stumpage fees, this must mean Canadians are subsidizing their softwood lumber industry.


SO! It sounds like logger is saying that lower taxes = subsidy?
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Old 25th April 2017, 04:59 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by Spindrift View Post
Edited by Agatha:  Edited to remove breach in quote
Edited by Agatha:  Edited to remove response to breach


The sad state of forest management can be laid at the little feet of leftists.

Last edited by Agatha; 4th May 2017 at 04:19 AM.
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Old 25th April 2017, 05:02 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by blutoski View Post
It opens up a whole philosophical question about "What is a subsidy?"

In this case, the argument is that since BC stumpage fees are lower than WA stumpage fees, this must mean Canadians are subsidizing their softwood lumber industry.


SO! It sounds like logger is saying that lower taxes = subsidy?
Funny how the left looks at these issues. Thankfully the used to be democrat working class will look at Trump as a saviour.
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Old 25th April 2017, 05:25 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by logger View Post
The reports are Canada is subsidising its timber industry. So not quite the free market there chief. But as usual I'm happy to inform you.
Whatever helps your rationalize why you're not as good a logger as the Canadians so you can sleep at night. Call them being better and having a functional government that provided education and healthcare to it's citizens a 'subsidy' even. That way you don't have to for a second think that you might be getting help from the government or deal with the cognitive dissonance.
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Old 25th April 2017, 05:32 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
Whatever helps your rationalize why you're not as good a logger as the Canadians so you can sleep at night. Call them being better and having a functional government that provided education and healthcare to it's citizens a 'subsidy' even. That way you don't have to for a second think that you might be getting help from the government or deal with the cognitive dissonance.
Lol
It has nothing to do with being good at logging, hilarious!
And somehow your socialistic ways forced you to slip in education and healthcare. ******* hilarious!
Isn't government supposed to level the playing field? Here is a perfect opportunity to do just that. What's more important is people will give him the credit for it.
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Old 25th April 2017, 05:33 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by blutoski View Post
SO! It sounds like logger is saying that lower taxes = subsidy?
When you voluntarily buy something from the government, the purchase price is not a tax.
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Old 25th April 2017, 06:10 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
When you voluntarily buy something from the government, the purchase price is not a tax.
Not exactly that cut and dry. The actual price is made up of 3 components:

- Stumpage Price
- Forestry Futures Trust Charge
- Forest Renewal Trust Charge

The Stumpage Price is itself made up of 3 components:

- Minimum Price, updated annually and set by species and product sector
- Residual Value Price, updated monthly based on market values
- Administrative Charge, $1.00/cubic meter for any exported out of country

All of those amounts are set by the government.

Hence, a part of what the logging companies have to pay can be seen as a tax added to the base price of the commodity. Those taxes are meant to cover the administrative expenses, and the efforts to ensure sustainability as well as to aid forest recovery after natural loss (fire, disease, etc).
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Old 25th April 2017, 06:30 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by logger View Post
Funny how the left looks at these issues. Thankfully the used to be democrat working class will look at Trump as a saviour.
A savior? Trump doesn't give a crap about the working class.
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Old 25th April 2017, 06:35 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by Spindrift View Post
A savior? Trump doesn't give a crap about the working class.
The tariffs will likely drive UP the price of lumber, and thus new home building. Likely causing layoffs in the home building industry.
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Old 25th April 2017, 06:52 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by Shalamar View Post
The tariffs will likely drive UP the price of lumber, and thus new home building. Likely causing layoffs in the home building industry.
Actually it will not cause layoffs. Lumber has been about the same price for decades. It could use a small uptick.
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Old 25th April 2017, 06:55 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by Spindrift View Post
A savior? Trump doesn't give a crap about the working class.
Lol
Him causing lumber to be bought in the US and somehow you don't think these towns are going to notice. Its no wonder your side has lost these people. I used to argue with them about Clinton, they loved him. They were lukewarm about Bush but they damn sure love Trump.
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Old 25th April 2017, 06:57 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by logger View Post
Actually it will not cause layoffs. Lumber has been about the same price for decades. It could use a small uptick.
Trump is a loser. He got the United States wedged in a trade war with Canada and Mexico, and now, this.

Quote:
The US just lost a trade battle with Mexico

The US just lost a trade battle with Mexico. It's the first loss of the Trump era.

http://money.cnn.com/2017/04/25/news...una/index.html
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Old 25th April 2017, 07:00 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by Molinaro View Post
Not exactly that cut and dry. The actual price is made up of 3 components:

- Stumpage Price
- Forestry Futures Trust Charge
- Forest Renewal Trust Charge

The Stumpage Price is itself made up of 3 components:

- Minimum Price, updated annually and set by species and product sector
- Residual Value Price, updated monthly based on market values
- Administrative Charge, $1.00/cubic meter for any exported out of country

All of those amounts are set by the government.

Hence, a part of what the logging companies have to pay can be seen as a tax added to the base price of the commodity. Those taxes are meant to cover the administrative expenses, and the efforts to ensure sustainability as well as to aid forest recovery after natural loss (fire, disease, etc).
Yes it is that cut and dry. The stumpage price is by far the largest portion.
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Old 25th April 2017, 07:04 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by skyeagle409 View Post
Trump is a loser. He got the United States wedged in a trade war with Canada and Mexico, and now, this.
lol
Leftists got the stupid dolphin ban in place.

As far as a loss, it will effect Mexico more than the US.
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Old 25th April 2017, 07:05 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by Spindrift View Post
A savior? Trump doesn't give a crap about the working class.

Let's see how far he gets on his plan for coal jobs.


Quote:
Trump promised to bring back coal jobs. That promise ‘will not be kept,’ experts say.

“I made them this promise,” Trump said, “we will put our miners back to work.”

But industry experts say coal mining jobs will continue to be lost, not because of blocked access to coal, but because power plant owners are turning to natural gas. At least six plants that relied on coal have closed or announced they will close since Trump’s victory in November, including the main plant at the Navajo Generating Station in Arizona, the largest in the West. Another 40 are projected to close during the president’s four-year term.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.10dd522f6e54
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Old 25th April 2017, 07:09 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by logger View Post
lol
Leftists got the stupid dolphin ban in place.

As far as a loss, it will effect Mexico more than the US.

It's all just the beginning considering that Mexico will be seeking millions of dollars from the United States. Trump has proven to the whole world in less than 100 days that he is unfit to be president, which isn't surprising considering the Trump has the honor of being president with the lowest approval rating of any new president. I wonder why Trump doesn't brag about the honor of having the lowest approval rating of any new president.

Now, Trump has back-stepped on the border wall and has turned 180 degrees on some of his promises. Seems that Mr. Reality has been kicking Trump on his backside, which is why he has been changing his tune. How hilarious!! I wonder if Putin has filed for a divorce from Trump after Mr. Reality kicked him on his backside in regard to his cozy relationship with Trump before the election.

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Old 25th April 2017, 07:09 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by skyeagle409 View Post
Let's see how far he gets on his plan for coal jobs.
And do those jobs will be replaced by people who go to work for the natural gas industry. See how that works? And magically Trump, takes the credit.
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