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Tags Canada economy , nafta , US-Canada relations

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Old 11th May 2017, 01:31 AM   #281
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Originally Posted by logger View Post
Canadian lumber tariff.
Again, I'm not clear how more expensive lumber, more expensive houses , lower demand and consequential layoffs in related industries is "good" YMMV
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Old 11th May 2017, 05:53 AM   #282
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Again, I'm not clear how more expensive lumber, more expensive houses , lower demand and consequential layoffs in related industries is "good" YMMV
Because people want to make more money. You do realize prices rise? We've had anemic wage increases for many reasons, one is we're competing with overseas slave labor. Funny how you seem to think a small rise in prices will destroy an economy. Bet you're all for tax increases?
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Old 11th May 2017, 05:55 AM   #283
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A feel good story.
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/11/b...licy.html?_r=0
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Old 11th May 2017, 06:10 AM   #284
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Originally Posted by logger View Post
Because people want to make more money. You do realize prices rise?
The thing is that a few people may benefit incrementally from the price rise but a much larger number of people will suffer and to a much greater extent.

Originally Posted by logger View Post
We've had anemic wage increases for many reasons, one is we're competing with overseas slave labor.
There are many complicated reasons for why a significant portion of the US population have seen real terms wage reduction but increasing the tariffs on imported goods are unlikely to help the situation and likely will have the opposite effect as businesses have to respond to rises in the costs of imported goods and services by squeezing domestic costs, including labour costs.

Of course in the case of Canadian softwoods, Canadian wages are higher so the point in this case is moot.

Originally Posted by logger View Post
Funny how you seem to think a small rise in prices will destroy an economy.
I don't recall saying that - I do recall pointing to a study carried out by industry experts who concluded that a rise in lumber prices will likely hit jobs in the construction and related industries.

Maybe you have me confused with an alt-reality

Originally Posted by logger View Post
Bet you're all for tax increases?
It depends. What taxes, on whom would they be levied, on what would they apply and what is the purpose of the tax increases ?
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Old 11th May 2017, 06:15 AM   #285
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Originally Posted by logger View Post
Indeed, that's all it is, a feel good story

Stock prices are up but as yet there is no indication that demand for steel is rising or that the steel in question will be provided by US steel producers. Indeed, so far action has been thin on the ground....

Quote:
......neither the administration’s backtracking on a promise to use American-made steel in the Keystone XL Pipeline or its messy battles with congressional Republicans and low approval ratings have damped optimism about the president or his agenda
and of course it may not result in any more steel jobs, just higher profits for steel companies:

Quote:
If trade policies have eaten away at steel industry jobs, so have technological advances like Nucor’s electric arc furnaces, which recycle existing iron and steel instead of making it from scratch. The old-style blast-furnace steel plants that resembled volcanic Mordor from “The Lord of the Rings” and employed legions of boilermakers, electricians, steamfitters and more are on the decline in the United States.

In the 1980s, for example, making a finished ton of steel required about 10 human-hours of work. Now the Huger plant can make that same ton from recycled material in 0.4 human-hours, said Mr. Daughtridge, who has worked for Nucor for 33 years.
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Old 11th May 2017, 06:50 AM   #286
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Originally Posted by logger View Post
Canadian lumber tariff.
You could just say you can't think of anything.
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Old 11th May 2017, 06:55 AM   #287
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I think sometimes we can get a more objective analysis by looking at news media reports from third parties. This is from Britain's Telegraph:
Quote:
In reality, the imposition of tariffs was anticipated, irrespective of who won the race to the White House last November. The US has long been convinced that Canada is subsidising its lumber industry illegally, by allowing loggers to cut down trees at artificially reduced rates.

Wilbur Ross, the US commerce secretary, announced Washington was imposing a tariff on Canadian lumber. "[On April 24th] it became apparent that Canada intends to effectively cut off the last dairy products being exported from the United States. Today, the Department of Commerce determined a need to impose countervailing duties of roughly $1bn on Canadian softwood lumber exports to us. This is not our idea of a properly functioning free trade agreement.” Link
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Old 11th May 2017, 07:57 AM   #288
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Originally Posted by newyorkguy View Post
I think sometimes we can get a more objective analysis by looking at news media reports from third parties. This is from Britain's Telegraph:
This at the end is interesting.

Quote:
However, Steve Jarding, a lecturer in public policy at Harvard School of Government, is fiercely critical of Mr Trump and believes the move could be costly. “It’s horrible. He has singled out lumber and dairy, and they are not even covered by Nafta,” he says.

“You don’t create policy in a vacuum and that is what he is doing. It is just a show – he is puffing out his chest to show how tough he is. The whole thing is madness – it sets a precedent and other countries will retaliate.”
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Old 11th May 2017, 09:16 AM   #289
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Steve Jarding, a lecturer in public policy at Harvard School of Government? An obvious pinko! In fact I was flabbergasted that logger linked a source -- that was shocking right there -- but the fact it was from the failing New York Times fake news website. Huh?

Seriously, there is some question as to how much cost the lumber tariff will add to things like home-building. The lumber trade group says less than a $1,000 per home while a builders' group says way over $1,000 per home.
Quote:
The National Association of Home Builders has come out strongly against the tariffs...The NAHB says a typical single-family home uses roughly 15,000 board feet of lumber, and that the Q1 price hikes could add nearly $3,600 to the price of a new home.

The U.S. Lumber Coalition offers a different view of price impacts, saying that the total cost of lumber for a $350,000 house is $6,000, for which duties would add an additional $400. Link
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Old 11th May 2017, 09:25 AM   #290
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
The thing is that a few people may benefit incrementally from the price rise but a much larger number of people will suffer and to a much greater extent.
And people will suffer if prices go down.



Quote:
There are many complicated reasons for why a significant portion of the US population have seen real terms wage reduction but increasing the tariffs on imported goods are unlikely to help the situation and likely will have the opposite effect as businesses have to respond to rises in the costs of imported goods and services by squeezing domestic costs, including labour costs.
One of those reasons is low wages in other countries. Canadas wages can be higher since the government dumps their softwood.
Quote:
Of course in the case of Canadian softwoods, Canadian wages are higher so the point in this case is moot.
Stumpage prices being lower allows business to charge more.


Quote:
I don't recall saying that - I do recall pointing to a study carried out by industry experts who concluded that a rise in lumber prices will likely hit jobs in the construction and related industries.
Well, that settles it then.




Quote:
It depends. What taxes, on whom would they be levied, on what would they apply and what is the purpose of the tax increases ?
Might be easier to figure out the ones you would be against.
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Old 11th May 2017, 09:28 AM   #291
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Indeed, that's all it is, a feel good story

Stock prices are up but as yet there is no indication that demand for steel is rising or that the steel in question will be provided by US steel producers. Indeed, so far action has been thin on the ground....
Its a huge hole to dig out, but they're headed in the right direction. Something Obama was incapable of.


Quote:
and of course it may not result in any more steel jobs, just higher profits for steel companies:
Selling more domestic steel may not result in more jobs? I suppose wishful thinkers would post that, but it's not rooted in reality.
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Old 11th May 2017, 09:33 AM   #292
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Originally Posted by newyorkguy View Post
Steve Jarding, a lecturer in public policy at Harvard School of Government? An obvious pinko! In fact I was flabbergasted that logger linked a source -- that was shocking right there -- but the fact it was from the failing New York Times fake news website. Huh?
I "feel" it necessary to put up leftist rags that your side might believe a little easier, it's my caring heart that is sensitive to your sides needs.
Quote:
Seriously, there is some question as to how much cost the lumber tariff will add to things like home-building. The lumber trade group says less than a $1,000 per home while a builders' group says way over $1,000 per home.
Certainly would depend on the home size.
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Old 11th May 2017, 09:43 AM   #293
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Originally Posted by logger View Post
I "feel" it necessary to put up leftist rags that your side might believe a little easier, it's my caring heart that is sensitive to your sides needs.
This isn't an argument; it's the opposite of one. It doesn't lead to a discussion. It leads to the opposite of one.

Originally Posted by logger View Post
Certainly would depend on the home size.
Thanks for the insight. Real insider stuff.
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Old 11th May 2017, 10:05 AM   #294
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Originally Posted by newyorkguy View Post
This isn't an argument; it's the opposite of one. It doesn't lead to a discussion. It leads to the opposite of one.
Chiding me for posting the NYT, will get you the answer you wanted. Shall I say, you started it!
Quote:
Thanks for the insight. Real insider stuff.
Then you post this, so here's my answer. Need to know the average size of the home each group is using. The figures should not, of course, be that far off.
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Old 11th May 2017, 10:23 AM   #295
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What touched this off was apparently the Canadian system of stabilizing milk prices. Because prices are very volatile, American dairy products are usually not sold in Canada. This is from NPR:
Quote:
In Canada, the price of milk that dairy farmers sell isn't based on supply and demand. Rather, a group of people from industry and the government get together and decide what's fair. They set the price high enough to cover a good farmer's costs, plus a little profit. Murray Sherk [an Ontario dairy farmer] says it's designed "to provide what you'd call fair returns for efficient producers."...It's called supply management, and part of it involves keeping out imports of cheap milk from the United States.

American dairy farmers like Bill Bruins, in Fond du Lac County, Wis., are constantly reacting to shifts in the supply and demand for milk. "You have high prices followed by low prices followed by high prices," Bruins says....Right now, prices are low because the world's cows are producing too much milk. They're so low, in fact, that some dairy farmers are giving up and selling their cows. This is the sometimes-brutal way that markets bring supply back in line with demand. NPR link
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Old 11th May 2017, 10:27 AM   #296
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Originally Posted by logger View Post
Its a huge hole to dig out, but they're headed in the right direction. Something Obama was incapable of.
1 million manufacturing jobs were created during Obama's Presidency, an 8% increase. Under George W Bush, there were 6 million fewer a 33% drop - Obama was doing pretty well actually.

Originally Posted by logger View Post
Selling more domestic steel may not result in more jobs? I suppose wishful thinkers would post that, but it's not rooted in reality.
Yes if plants continue to improve their efficiency as they have done over the past 30 years they could soon be producing twice as much steel with half as many people.

Over that period, the amount of steel per work hour has increased by a factor of 25, doubling every 6 years or so.
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Old 11th May 2017, 10:30 AM   #297
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
1 million manufacturing jobs were created during Obama's Presidency, an 8% increase. Under George W Bush, there were 6 million fewer a 33% drop - Obama was doing pretty well actually.
Starting in the base,ent does usually help your numbers. He did nothing! Each depressing quarter was nothing but average or below average.


Quote:
Yes if plants continue to improve their efficiency as they have done over the past 30 years they could soon be producing twice as much steel with half as many people.

Over that period, the amount of steel per work hour has increased by a factor of 25, doubling every 6 years or so.
You do want high paying jobs. The steel sector has no where to go but up, as i said they're in a huge hole!
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Old 11th May 2017, 10:32 AM   #298
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Originally Posted by logger View Post
...Need to know the average size of the home each group is using. The figures should not, of course, be that far off.
The house sizes were given in the link I supplied which is to a construction industry website, not a general news site. The figures are very different:
Quote:
The National Association of Home Builders says a typical single-family home uses roughly 15,000 board feet of lumber, and that the Q1 price hikes could add nearly $3,600 to the price of a new home....

The U.S. Lumber Coalition offers a different view...“An average home uses 13,000 board feet of lumber,” van Heyningen said. “With an average composite framing lumber price of $435 today, it adds up to $5,655 total in the cost for lumber, which makes it impossible for a 20% duty on one-third of that lumber to result in a cost increase of $3,600 to the consumer.”
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Old 11th May 2017, 10:56 AM   #299
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Originally Posted by newyorkguy View Post
The house sizes were given in the link I supplied which is to a construction industry website, not a general news site. The figures are very different:
Yeah I saw that, but generally home square footage is a much better indicator so I'm not really sure why they do it that way. Either way a few thousand added can be easily absorbed and a much needed pay raise for logger(s)
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Old 11th May 2017, 11:03 AM   #300
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Originally Posted by logger View Post
Starting in the base,ent does usually help your numbers. He did nothing! Each depressing quarter was nothing but average or below average.
Average against what metric ? Better than either Bush, better than Trump so far (though he gets a pass from me because it'll be a year until the effects of his policies filter through)

Originally Posted by logger View Post
You do want high paying jobs. The steel sector has no where to go but up, as i said they're in a huge hole!
The question is, if there is increased demand for US steel (and there's still no guarantee that Trump will make good on his promises - Keystone is a good indicator of that), will it result in more steel jobs ?

On current evidence, the answer would have to be no, the increased demand will be met through increased automation.
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Old 11th May 2017, 11:24 AM   #301
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Originally Posted by logger View Post
Yeah I saw that, but generally home square footage is a much better indicator so I'm not really sure why they do it that way. Either way a few thousand added can be easily absorbed and a much needed pay raise for logger(s)
Profit for a small group at the expense of the little guy. So this is one of the things Trump is doing for the little guy.
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Old 11th May 2017, 08:00 PM   #302
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Originally Posted by Spindrift View Post
Profit for a small group at the expense of the little guy. So this is one of the things Trump is doing for the little guy.
Yes, working people getting a pay raise is good?
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Old 11th May 2017, 08:05 PM   #303
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Average against what metric ? Better than either Bush, better than Trump so far (though he gets a pass from me because it'll be a year until the effects of his policies filter through)
Bush had a huge drop because of the meltdown. I know you knew that and just forgot to mention it.


Quote:
The question is, if there is increased demand for US steel (and there's still no guarantee that Trump will make good on his promises - Keystone is a good indicator of that), will it result in more steel jobs ?
You think the steel mills magically run themselves? How about the many more jobs that support the industry of steel? Have you really thought this through, doesn't seem so.
Quote:
On current evidence, the answer would have to be no, the increased demand will be met through increased automation.
And you think this because you're incredibly ignorant of how business works?

Simple stuff here!
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Old 11th May 2017, 09:02 PM   #304
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Originally Posted by logger View Post
Yes, working people getting a pay raise is good?
Why do you think that the workers would get a raise?
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Old 11th May 2017, 10:38 PM   #305
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Originally Posted by rustypouch View Post
Why do you think that the workers would get a raise?
there's a first time for everything.
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Old 11th May 2017, 11:15 PM   #306
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Originally Posted by logger View Post
Bush had a huge drop because of the meltdown. I know you knew that and just forgot to mention it.
Nope, those manufacturing jobs were lost regularly and consistently throughout his Presidency.

Originally Posted by logger View Post
You think the steel mills magically run themselves? How about the many more jobs that support the industry of steel? Have you really thought this through, doesn't seem so.
No, I don't think steel mills magically run themselves but the industry has a strong track record of higher productivity - it having increased 25 fold over the last 30 years.

In 6 years time, if that trend continues, the US will be able to produce twice as much steel with the same number of workers. Increased demand will easily be accommodated without having to increase the number of workers.

Now if you're going to talk about jobs in support industries then you'll also need to consider the number of jobs lost among those who are involved with the import of steel.

Originally Posted by logger View Post
And you think this because you're incredibly ignorant of how business works?

Simple stuff here!
No, I think this because I'm reasonably knowledgeable about how business works - that being the way I've made a living for the past 30 years. The trend in the steel industry is ever increasing productivity with more steel being produced by fewer workers so an increase in demand for US steel won't necessarily result in an increased number of steelworking jobs.

OTOH, a switch from cheap imported steel to more expensive US-produced steel will result in a significant increase in the cost of steel to those who use it. Those additional costs will be felt in terms of smaller margins for steel users and/or increased costs for the public at large. In an elastic market higher costs will result in lower demand and so the end result will be lost jobs in those industries that use steel (rather like increases in lumber costs will result in construction industry layoffs) - unfortunately there'll be no increase in steel jobs to compensate and once again Trump's gift to the little guy is a place on the unemployment line.
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Old 12th May 2017, 02:31 AM   #307
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Nope, those manufacturing jobs were lost regularly and consistently throughout his Presidency.

No, I don't think steel mills magically run themselves but the industry has a strong track record of higher productivity - it having increased 25 fold over the last 30 years.

In 6 years time, if that trend continues, the US will be able to produce twice as much steel with the same number of workers. Increased demand will easily be accommodated without having to increase the number of workers.

Now if you're going to talk about jobs in support industries then you'll also need to consider the number of jobs lost among those who are involved with the import of steel.

No, I think this because I'm reasonably knowledgeable about how business works - that being the way I've made a living for the past 30 years. The trend in the steel industry is ever increasing productivity with more steel being produced by fewer workers so an increase in demand for US steel won't necessarily result in an increased number of steelworking jobs.

OTOH, a switch from cheap imported steel to more expensive US-produced steel will result in a significant increase in the cost of steel to those who use it. Those additional costs will be felt in terms of smaller margins for steel users and/or increased costs for the public at large. In an elastic market higher costs will result in lower demand and so the end result will be lost jobs in those industries that use steel (rather like increases in lumber costs will result in construction industry layoffs) - unfortunately there'll be no increase in steel jobs to compensate and once again Trump's gift to the little guy is a place on the unemployment line.
Nice write up. I believe the horse has been led to the water; what happens next is beyond the remit of anyone but the horse.
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Old 12th May 2017, 02:52 AM   #308
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Originally Posted by logger View Post
Stock prices going up in speculative anticipation of a better economic future just means cash "invested" in the Wall Street Casino instead of creating jobs and increasing paychecks. It won't feel so good if the speculation is unwarranted.

Last edited by WilliamSeger; 12th May 2017 at 02:54 AM. Reason: typo
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Old 12th May 2017, 07:21 AM   #309
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Originally Posted by logger View Post
Yes, working people getting a pay raise is good?
What workers? It's just more profits for the owners.
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Old 12th May 2017, 07:31 AM   #310
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Originally Posted by logger View Post
And people will suffer if prices go down.
True, but fewer people suffer


Originally Posted by logger View Post
One of those reasons is low wages in other countries. Canadas wages can be higher since the government dumps their softwood.
.......except, as multiple WTO rulings has shown, they don't

Originally Posted by logger View Post
Stumpage prices being lower allows business to charge more.
Whether that's true or not it demonstrates that your "slave wages" comment does not apply here.

Originally Posted by logger View Post
Well, that settles it then.
I was just clarifying that the point regarding the rise in house prices and subsequent losses of jobs in the construction industry was not an uninformed personal opinion, it was the informed opinion of an expert industry body.

By all means disagree with it but you're not arguing with me.

Originally Posted by logger View Post
Might be easier to figure out the ones you would be against.
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Old 12th May 2017, 09:35 AM   #311
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
1 million manufacturing jobs were created during Obama's Presidency, an 8% increase. Under George W Bush, there were 6 million fewer a 33% drop - Obama was doing pretty well actually.
Also worth noting is that public sector employment dropped by ~ half a million under Obama vs an increase of ~2 million under Bush.
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Old 12th May 2017, 10:00 AM   #312
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Originally Posted by WilliamSeger View Post
Stock prices going up in speculative anticipation of a better economic future just means cash "invested" in the Wall Street Casino instead of creating jobs and increasing paychecks. It won't feel so good if the speculation is unwarranted.
The Stock Market is what powers most of the economy..it is where buisnesses Get the money to invest in new jobs.
Calling it a Casino shows a ignorance of economics that is only a little better then the crap we get from Logger.
I despise Trump with a passion, but I can do so without buying into the "Anti Capitalist/Making a Profit is Evil" nonsense.
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Old 12th May 2017, 10:30 AM   #313
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
The Stock Market is what powers most of the economy..it is where buisnesses Get the money to invest in new jobs.
Calling it a Casino shows a ignorance of economics that is only a little better then the crap we get from Logger.
I despise Trump with a passion, but I can do so without buying into the "Anti Capitalist/Making a Profit is Evil" nonsense.
yet companies only really benefit from rising share prices if they decide to issue new shares or sell their stock.
Besides that, it's a tool for takeovers, which also don't really help either company since it's not the new company that is going to end up with the takeover money.
And derivatives on companies really do no good to the actual economy.
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Old 12th May 2017, 11:20 AM   #314
WilliamSeger
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
The Stock Market is what powers most of the economy..it is where buisnesses Get the money to invest in new jobs.
Calling it a Casino shows a ignorance of economics that is only a little better then the crap we get from Logger.
I despise Trump with a passion, but I can do so without buying into the "Anti Capitalist/Making a Profit is Evil" nonsense.
As the Great Zaganza said, stock market investments only go into creating jobs or raising wages when new stocks are sold. What powers creating new jobs and raising wages is the profit generated from existing jobs, which depends of being able to sell the products or services produced, or credit, which depends on confidence that new jobs will generate a profit. When the Republicans pass their tax-cut-for-the-wealthy "reform" lots of new cash will flood into the Wall Street Casino, chasing existing equity that isn't increasing at nearly the same rate, creating a new stock market bubble and doing little for the demand side of the equation. I'm not saying that "making a profit is evil" -- I'm saying it's necessary for capitalism to work, and most of what happens on Wall Street has little to do with that.
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Old 12th May 2017, 12:17 PM   #315
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Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
It came from Trump U! How could it not be worth the money!



Not strictly Socialist. Communism heavily employed a planned economies and Fascist states typically employed directed economies, which may even be a little closer to what he wants.
Originally Posted by WilliamSeger View Post
As the Great Zaganza said, stock market investments only go into creating jobs or raising wages when new stocks are sold. What powers creating new jobs and raising wages is the profit generated from existing jobs, which depends of being able to sell the products or services produced, or credit, which depends on confidence that new jobs will generate a profit. When the Republicans pass their tax-cut-for-the-wealthy "reform" lots of new cash will flood into the Wall Street Casino, chasing existing equity that isn't increasing at nearly the same rate, creating a new stock market bubble and doing little for the demand side of the equation. I'm not saying that "making a profit is evil" -- I'm saying it's necessary for capitalism to work, and most of what happens on Wall Street has little to do with that.
Yep. If anything, new jobs and rising wages are at odds with stock value.
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Old 12th May 2017, 05:43 PM   #316
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Originally Posted by rustypouch View Post
Yep. If anything, new jobs and rising wages are at odds with stock value.
Yep.... it's almost like clockwork. Watch the next time some biggie announces worldwide layoffs of 5000 workers. Virtually in sync with that announcement the market pages will report "Great Big Amalgamated Stocks Surge 13% on news of reorganization. Shares at 11 year high." The overall market gets bear-ish on high unemployment, but piecemeal unemployment sends out a "Buy" signal.
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Old 15th May 2017, 06:28 AM   #317
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Part of the current U.S./Canada trade dispute is based on the U.S. charge that Canada can deliver lumber to the U.S. at lower prices than domestic suppliers because Canada subsidizes their lumber producers. Not surprisingly, Canada disputes that.
Quote:
At the heart of the trade quarrel is that the majority of Canadian lumber comes from Crown lands, managed by provincial governments. In the U.S. timber is harvested from private lands meaning the stumpage price is generally higher. “What they are saying in the U.S. is the Canadian government is essentially giving this land away cheaper than it should be and that is an illegal subsidy,” BMO economist Alex Koustas told Global News. “However, it’s been established through a number of panels and resolution panels that is not the case.” Link
Trump gives the public the impression that he, Trump, is finally doing something to resolve this after years of no action. That is patently false. This issue has been in negotiations -- and there have been a series of agreements -- going back thirty-five years. When you look at the history of the dispute, a lot of what Trump has said appears to be false.

The other part is that Canada does not permit U.S. milk to be sold in their country. Canada does protect its domestic dairy industry but this is another dispute that has been going on for many years, back as far as the Clinton administration and probably farther. Canada uses steep tariffs to keep imported milk out.
Quote:
Under Canada’s supply management regime for milk, steep tariffs protect Canada’s dairy farmers from imports of most dairy products...Jaime Castaneva, a senior vice-president at the U.S. Dairy Export Council in Washington, D.C., [said] “It’s the same old story with respect to Canada,” Castaneva said. “Twenty years ago the U.S. and New Zealand took Canada to the WTO.” Link
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Old 15th May 2017, 05:37 PM   #318
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Originally Posted by newyorkguy View Post
Part of the current U.S./Canada trade dispute is based on the U.S. charge that Canada can deliver lumber to the U.S. at lower prices than domestic suppliers because Canada subsidizes their lumber producers. Not surprisingly, Canada disputes that.


Trump gives the public the impression that he, Trump, is finally doing something to resolve this after years of no action. That is patently false. This issue has been in negotiations -- and there have been a series of agreements -- going back thirty-five years. When you look at the history of the dispute, a lot of what Trump has said appears to be false.

The other part is that Canada does not permit U.S. milk to be sold in their country. Canada does protect its domestic dairy industry but this is another dispute that has been going on for many years, back as far as the Clinton administration and probably farther. Canada uses steep tariffs to keep imported milk out.
So now you're agreeing with me that Trump is doing this to get a better deal?
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Old 15th May 2017, 11:20 PM   #319
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Originally Posted by logger View Post
So now you're agreeing with me that Trump is doing this to get a better deal?
Application of the rule of so ?

He's doing it to grandstand. It looks like one country will get a better deal, but it's likely to be Canada.
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Old 17th May 2017, 04:54 AM   #320
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Application of the rule of so ?

He's doing it to grandstand. It looks like one country will get a better deal, but it's likely to be Canada.
This another rinse and repeat, how is it grandstanding?

And how does it look like Canada is getting a better deal?
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