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Tags donald trump , Trump administration , Trump controversies

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Old 9th May 2017, 07:12 AM   #241
Argumemnon
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
It was about what the nature of compromise for the past 40 years has been in the US. Shifting to the right.
That doesn't make compromise itself bad, and it sure doesn't make endless pendulum shifts any better.
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Old 9th May 2017, 07:43 AM   #242
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
That is what it means for the past 40 years in the US. That is why we are finally getting to levels of wealth inequality that the right wing really wants, as shown by their policies.
If and when that inequality focuses the attention of the electorate, they're free to elect a left-leaning president who is then free to appoint left-leaning judges.

And the pendulum will swing left again, until the unintended consequences of a liberal court become apparent, and then that will itself correct.

And so on...
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Old 9th May 2017, 08:00 AM   #243
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Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B View Post
If and when that inequality focuses the attention of the electorate, they're free to elect a left-leaning president who is then free to appoint left-leaning judges.
Only if the Senate allows it.....

As I understand it, that's one of the complaints, that a Republican-led Senate not only failed to approve Obama's nominee to replace Scalia but furthermore were explicit that they wouldn't consider any Obama nominee, regardless of his or her merits.
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Old 9th May 2017, 08:05 AM   #244
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Only if the Senate allows it.....

As I understand it, that's one of the complaints, that a Republican-led Senate not only failed to approve Obama's nominee to replace Scalia but furthermore were explicit that they wouldn't consider any Obama nominee, regardless of his or her merits.
It does seem the right outmaneuvered the left on that one.

Again, I think the Democrats rolled over so easily on that one because they assumed Hillary would win.
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Old 9th May 2017, 08:58 AM   #245
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Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B View Post
It does seem the right outmaneuvered the left on that one.

Again, I think the Democrats rolled over so easily on that one because they assumed Hillary would win.
What, precisely, should they have done? Far as I can tell, they were limited to complaining and publicizing the dirty tactic.
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Old 9th May 2017, 09:02 AM   #246
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Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B View Post
If and when that inequality focuses the attention of the electorate, they're free to elect a left-leaning president who is then free to appoint left-leaning judges.

And the pendulum will swing left again, until the unintended consequences of a liberal court become apparent, and then that will itself correct.

And so on...
Yea right. Look at trump he managed to focus that broadening inequality on immigrants thus preventing any reform. As long as you have enough targets top paint as the perpetrators for it you can keep going a long time. I figure russia is pretty much the dirrection this nation is heading. Putin for example really is very popular. As long as you have enough people to shift the blame to you can keep going for a very long time.
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Old 9th May 2017, 09:04 AM   #247
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B View Post
It does seem the right outmaneuvered the left on that one.

Again, I think the Democrats rolled over so easily on that one because they assumed Hillary would win.
What, precisely, should they have done? Far as I can tell, they were limited to complaining and publicizing the dirty tactic.
They were "outmaneuvered" by a brick wall, then "rolled over" by a steamroller.
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Old 9th May 2017, 09:11 AM   #248
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Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B View Post
If and when that inequality focuses the attention of the electorate, they're free to elect a left-leaning president who is then free to appoint left-leaning judges.

And so on...
We had a Democratic POTUS and he couldn't get a middle of the road justice nominated. The GOP cheats.
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Old 9th May 2017, 09:12 AM   #249
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Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B View Post
It does seem the right outmaneuvered the left on that one.

Again, I think the Democrats rolled over so easily on that one because they assumed Hillary would win.
Care to explain what Obama's options were?
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Old 9th May 2017, 09:13 AM   #250
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In our system, the public is supposed to hold elected officials accountable for ******** like that. The GOP made a bet that they could get away with it. They were right.

It's tragic and disgusting, but they wagered on the ignorance and indolence of the American populace and won.
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Old 9th May 2017, 09:33 AM   #251
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Uh, oh, fellow humans!

It's like you have no respect for anyone's life, happiness or values but your own.
Its interesting how we have the same opinion of each other's side.
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Old 9th May 2017, 09:35 AM   #252
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
Trump has the right to nominate judges, though of course McConnell's partisanship is to blame for why there are so many vacancies. The Senate dragged their feet in the last year of Obama's presidency, purposely failing to have votes on many of his nominees in the hopes that they would win the presidency.

It worked. It was a dirty tactic in my book, but it worked. As a result, Trump will leave quite a mark on the judiciary.

(I believe I heard about this tactic on Morning Edition or All Things Considered, but am not certain.)
By labeling it a dirty tactic, does that somehow help you get over it?

Do you think whoever wins a chess game somehow did a dirty tactic?
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Old 9th May 2017, 09:36 AM   #253
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Originally Posted by logger View Post
By labeling it a dirty tactic, does that somehow help you get over it?

Do you think whoever wins a chess game somehow did a dirty tactic?
Winning doesn't prove the tactic was dirty, neither does it prove it wasn't.
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Old 9th May 2017, 09:37 AM   #254
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post


The pendulum isn't the solution. It's the moderation; the compromise.
When you can get the left to abide by moderation and compromise, you'll have it.

First you may want to elect some moderates.
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Old 9th May 2017, 09:38 AM   #255
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Originally Posted by TraneWreck View Post
Winning doesn't prove the tactic was dirty, neither does it prove it wasn't.
Ahh the master of obvious. I'm more interested in why his opinion goes to "dirty tactic" instead of political skill. I thought Obama was quite good at "politics" and I gave him credit for it.
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Old 9th May 2017, 09:39 AM   #256
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Originally Posted by logger View Post
When you can get the left to abide by moderation and compromise, you'll have it.
Define moderation. Pick any issue - immigration, health care, taxes... - and describe what a moderate position looks like.

Quote:
First you may want to elect some moderates.
Barack Obama advanced the following positions:
  • George H.W. Bush's tax policy.
  • Mitt Romney's health-care policy.
  • John McCain's climate-change policy.
  • George H.W. Bush's foreign policy.
  • Bill Clinton's spending policy.
  • Dwight Eisenhower's Federal Reserve policy.
  • George W. Bush's education policy.

When you say "moderate" you mean something far right. Offer some specifics, both in terms of policy and in terms of individuals who advocate those views.

Last edited by TraneWreck; 9th May 2017 at 09:41 AM.
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Old 9th May 2017, 09:40 AM   #257
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
What, precisely, should they have done? Far as I can tell, they were limited to complaining and publicizing the dirty tactic.
Moderate so they can win elections?
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Old 9th May 2017, 09:41 AM   #258
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Originally Posted by logger View Post
Ahh the master of obvious. I'm more interested in why his opinion goes to "dirty tactic" instead of political skill. I thought Obama was quite good at "politics" and I gave him credit for it.
There was no game or strategy. The GOP bet on a plan that was contrary to 225 years of American governmental practice. There was no explicit rule against it, but it was a flagrant bit of obstructionism unprecedented in American history. It was ******, but it worked.

Whether you want to call it dirty or not, I don't care. You know as well as I that if it happened with the parties reversed your side would whine for a thousand years.
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Old 9th May 2017, 09:41 AM   #259
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Originally Posted by logger View Post
Its interesting how we have the same opinion of each other's side.
Oh, I was only refering to you personally, not the right.
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Old 9th May 2017, 09:42 AM   #260
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Originally Posted by logger View Post
When you can get the left to abide by moderation and compromise, you'll have it.

First you may want to elect some moderates.
Are you seriously suggesting that Clinton and Obama were extremists?
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Old 9th May 2017, 09:43 AM   #261
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Originally Posted by TraneWreck View Post
Define moderation. Pick any issue - immigration, health care, taxes... - and describe what a moderate position looks like.
Good luck with that question, man. Extremists don't know what moderation is.
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Old 9th May 2017, 09:43 AM   #262
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Originally Posted by TraneWreck View Post
Barack Obama advanced the following positions:
  • George H.W. Bush's tax policy.
  • Mitt Romney's health-care policy.
  • John McCain's climate-change policy.
  • George H.W. Bush's foreign policy.
  • Bill Clinton's spending policy.
  • Dwight Eisenhower's Federal Reserve policy.
  • George W. Bush's education policy.

When you say "moderate" you mean something far right. Offer some specifics, both in terms of policy and in terms of individuals who advocate those views.


great summary!
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Old 9th May 2017, 09:46 AM   #263
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Are you seriously suggesting that Clinton and Obama were extremists?

I remember a joke about the modern Republican definition of Liberal being "a politician slightly to the right of Ronald Reagan".
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Old 9th May 2017, 09:48 AM   #264
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Originally Posted by TraneWreck View Post
Define moderation. Pick any issue - immigration, health care, taxes... - and describe what a moderate position looks like.
Why, do you seriously not know? My opinion is the Dems never compromise, they aren't interested in it, they want to implement their leftists ideas. That is something I admire about them.


Quote:
Barack Obama held the following positions:
  • George H.W. Bush's tax policy.
  • Mitt Romney's health-care policy.
  • John McCain's climate-change policy.
  • George H.W. Bush's foreign policy.
  • Bill Clinton's spending policy.
  • Dwight Eisenhower's Federal Reserve policy.
  • George W. Bush's education policy.

When you say "moderate" you mean something far right. Offer some specifics, both in terms of policy and in terms of individuals who advocate those views.
First of all, a president is bound by what he can get done. Take healthcare, that is what Obama could get done, certainly not what he wanted. Once again this is a chess game, even though I want something from the right, Dems coming to the middle would benefit them in many ways. It has nothing to do what I want, I'm giving you political strategy that you're obviously incapable of understanding.

Reading people while having political skill is pretty easy. The problem with your side is leftism is your religion, you're completely insulted anyone could disagree.
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Old 9th May 2017, 09:49 AM   #265
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Originally Posted by TraneWreck View Post
There was no game or strategy. The GOP bet on a plan that was contrary to 225 years of American governmental practice. There was no explicit rule against it, but it was a flagrant bit of obstructionism unprecedented in American history. It was ******, but it worked.

Whether you want to call it dirty or not, I don't care. You know as well as I that if it happened with the parties reversed your side would whine for a thousand years.
My side certainly would whine, I on the other hand would learn from it.
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Old 9th May 2017, 09:51 AM   #266
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Originally Posted by Armitage72 View Post
I remember a joke about the modern Republican definition of Liberal being "a politician slightly to the right of Ronald Reagan".
Reagan's own son certainly seems to think that his father wouldn't be welcome in today's GOP, and that their near-religious views of him are more creepy than anything else.
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Old 9th May 2017, 09:52 AM   #267
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Are you seriously suggesting that Clinton and Obama were extremists?
Yes in many things, they're socialists. The predator in chief did Straddle certain issues, he was part of the Democrat Leadership Counsel which claimed to be moderate. But in other issues he could have been parroting Marx.
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Old 9th May 2017, 09:52 AM   #268
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Originally Posted by logger View Post
Why, do you seriously not know? My opinion is the Dems never compromise, they aren't interested in it, they want to implement their leftists ideas.
We know that it's your opinion, but like every opinion it can correspond to reality or it might not. Hence Trane's request.

So: what policies would you consider moderate?
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Old 9th May 2017, 09:54 AM   #269
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Reagan's own son certainly seems to think that his father wouldn't be welcome in today's GOP, and that their near-religious views of him are more creepy than anything else.
See if you can understand this? Reagan accomplished what he could, his rhetoric was much more conservative than his policies.

Why do I have to teach leftists these simple political truths?
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Old 9th May 2017, 09:54 AM   #270
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Originally Posted by logger View Post
Yes in many things, they're socialists.
Socialists? They're barely liberals. Do you even know what true socialism looks like?

Quote:
The predator in chief did Straddle certain issues, he was part of the Democrat Leadership Counsel which claimed to be moderate. But in other issues he could have been parroting Marx.
You're great at comedy, I'll give you that. Do you have the slightest idea what sort of stuff Marxists actually champion?

Come on, now. Stop trying to, as you earlier admitted, troll, and instead engage us in actual discussion about these issues.
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Old 9th May 2017, 09:55 AM   #271
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Originally Posted by logger View Post
See if you can understand this? Reagan accomplished what he could, his rhetoric was much more conservative than his policies.

Why do I have to teach leftists these simple political truths?
Well, I don't know -- why do you think I didn't know this already? And how do you think this counters what I said?

You seem to believe that your posts are much more insightful than they actually are.
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Old 9th May 2017, 10:00 AM   #272
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
We know that it's your opinion, but like every opinion it can correspond to reality or it might not. Hence Trane's request.

So: what policies would you consider moderate?

Strong military
Safety net
Environmental moderation, like allowing a simple pipeline.
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Old 9th May 2017, 10:04 AM   #273
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Socialists? They're barely liberals. Do you even know what true socialism looks like?
Lordy!
Can you understand a politician can have some socialistic tendencies?


Quote:
You're great at comedy, I'll give you that.
Well it's about damn time you admitted it!

Quote:
Do you have the slightest idea what sort of stuff Marxists actually champion?
Single payer healthcare?
Quote:
Come on, now. Stop trying to, as you earlier admitted, troll, and instead engage us in actual discussion about these issues.
Damn, it's so much fun though, besides I'm sure you guys already know what I'm going to post before I post it.
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Old 9th May 2017, 10:06 AM   #274
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Well, I don't know -- why do you think I didn't know this already? And how do you think this counters what I said?

.
Because you think he's a RINO today?
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Old 9th May 2017, 10:24 AM   #275
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Originally Posted by TraneWreck View Post
Define moderation. Pick any issue - immigration, health care, taxes... - and describe what a moderate position looks like.



Barack Obama advanced the following positions:
  • George H.W. Bush's tax policy.
  • Mitt Romney's health-care policy.
  • John McCain's climate-change policy.
  • George H.W. Bush's foreign policy.
  • Bill Clinton's spending policy.
  • Dwight Eisenhower's Federal Reserve policy.
  • George W. Bush's education policy.

When you say "moderate" you mean something far right. Offer some specifics, both in terms of policy and in terms of individuals who advocate those views.
Current Fed policy is more of a Reagan thing. Trump has been pretty vocal about wanting to change it though; Apparently Reagan was too much of a leftist for him and his supporters. Trump is also intent on killing off the EPA because it was originally established by noted Communist Richard Nixon.
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Old 9th May 2017, 10:41 AM   #276
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Originally Posted by logger View Post
Strong military
That's a little vague. Is a strong military stronger (more expensive) than what you have now, or less, or equal?

Quote:
Safety net
In what way?

Quote:
Environmental moderation, like allowing a simple pipeline.
Again, what does that mean?
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Old 9th May 2017, 10:43 AM   #277
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Originally Posted by logger View Post
Lordy!
Can you understand a politician can have some socialistic tendencies?
If that's the standard you want to use, ALL American politicians have socialist tendencies.

Quote:
Well it's about damn time you admitted it!
However, don't give up your day job.

Quote:
Single payer healthcare?
No. If you think SPH is "socialist" in the sense you use it, then you understand nothing about healthcare -- or socialism.

Quote:
Damn, it's so much fun though
Perhaps to a teenager but I'd expect an adult to behave more... well, like an adult.

Quote:
Because you think he's a RINO today?
Perhaps you lost track of the conversation but I was refering to Ron Reagan's opinion.
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Old 9th May 2017, 10:56 AM   #278
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Originally Posted by logger View Post
Why, do you seriously not know? My opinion is the Dems never compromise, they aren't interested in it, they want to implement their leftists ideas. That is something I admire about them.
1) That's a sad dodge to a pretty direct challenge. Just pick an issue and describe a substantive moderate position.
2) This is flatly wrong as a Democratic President advanced a health care bill conceived by the Heritage Foundation, proposed by Bob Dole, and enacted in Massachusetts by Mitt Romney.


Quote:
First of all, a president is bound by what he can get done. Take healthcare, that is what Obama could get done, certainly not what he wanted. Once again this is a chess game, even though I want something from the right, Dems coming to the middle would benefit them in many ways. It has nothing to do what I want, I'm giving you political strategy that you're obviously incapable of understanding.
You have yet to describe the middle. Pick an issue, any issue, and describe to me the middle position that Democrats should adopt.

Quote:
Reading people while having political skill is pretty easy. The problem with your side is leftism is your religion, you're completely insulted anyone could disagree.
Yawn.
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Old 9th May 2017, 10:57 AM   #279
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Originally Posted by logger View Post
My side certainly would whine, I on the other hand would learn from it.
There's nothing to learn: if you have power, use it regardless of history, tradition, and anything else. As long it's technically legal, do it and hope you don't get ********** at the polls.
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Old 9th May 2017, 11:09 AM   #280
Argumemnon
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Originally Posted by TraneWreck View Post
Yawn.
And also irony.
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