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Tags donald trump , James Comey , Michael Flynn , Trump administration , Trump controversies , Trump-Russia connections

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Old 9th May 2017, 06:44 PM   #161
Hercules56
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Trump just fired the guy who was heading the Justice Department investigation into possible ties between his campaign and Russia/hackers, and ties between Trump and foreign interests.

But there's nothing there. No evidence of anything. No evidence of a cover-up or an attempt to hurt the investigation.

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Old 9th May 2017, 06:46 PM   #162
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
The FBI is free to do what it wants. We simply should not accept their opinions without them presenting evidence.
There is now a Grand Jury issuing subpoenas in Flynn's case, and Senator McCain just called for a special commission to investigate Trump's Russia ties.

But yeah, there's no evidence of anything.

Its all just folks being butthurt over the election.

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Old 9th May 2017, 06:47 PM   #163
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Originally Posted by portlandatheist View Post
If the government were a reality TV show, the ratings would be through the roof. YUGE!
Perhaps you missed the Trump Reality TV Show. It plays 24/7 on CNN, MSNBC, and Fox News.
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Old 9th May 2017, 06:49 PM   #164
BobTheCoward
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Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
Trump just fired the guy who was heading the Justice Department investigation into possible ties between his campaign and Russia/hackers, and ties between Trump and foreign interests.

But there's nothing there. No evidence of anything. No evidence of a cover-up or an attempt to hurt the investigation.

No, you actually don't have evidence for the cover up. It is an action that supports any claim that doesn't simply contradict it. It is no more evidence of cover up than evidence Trump thought Comey was doing a bad job.
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Old 9th May 2017, 06:51 PM   #165
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Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
There is now a Grand Jury issuing subpoenas in Flynn's case, and Senator McCain just called for a special commission to investigate Trump's Russia ties.

But yeah, there's no evidence of anything.

Its all just folks being butthurt over the election.

As skeptics we don't accept claims where the evidence is presented in secret. We require evidence in the open to base conclusions.
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Old 9th May 2017, 06:51 PM   #166
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
No, you actually don't have evidence for the cover up. It is an action that supports any claim that doesn't simply contradict it. It is no more evidence of cover up than evidence Trump thought Comey was doing a bad job.
Yes, and Reagan never sold weapons to Iran.

And Nixon did nothing wrong.

Its all just butthurt Democrats who can't get over the election.

Trump won fair and square and has no conflicts of interest in foreign nations. Flynn, Page, Manafort are all innocent of any wrongdoing.

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Old 9th May 2017, 06:53 PM   #167
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Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
Yes, and Reagan never sold weapons to Iran.

And Nixon did nothing wrong.

Its all just butthurt Democrats who can't get over the election.

Trump won fair and square and has no conflicts of interest in foreign nations. Flynn, Page, Manafort are all innocent of any wrongdoing.

Why do you insist on reaching conclusions without evidence? First it was they did something wrong, and now you say they didn't. Both are positions without evidence.
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Old 9th May 2017, 06:53 PM   #168
Hercules56
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
As skeptics we don't accept claims where the evidence is presented in secret. We require evidence in the open to base conclusions.
There's healthy, logical, rational skepticism.

And then there's simply hyperpartisan denial, driven by a personal political agenda.

Like 9-11 Truthers, Holocaust Deniers, and Moon Landing nuts.
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Old 9th May 2017, 06:54 PM   #169
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Breaking news that may shed light on the timing of this newest bit of autocracy:

https://www.facebook.com/newsandguts...42888802782762
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Old 9th May 2017, 06:54 PM   #170
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Originally Posted by ChristianProgressive View Post
And the hacking of voter registration databases? The fake/doctored emails? The fact our voting machines are not secure and demonstrably have not been since the mid 2000s? The statistical analyses that show anomalies in pro-Clinton precincts and counties?

There is more than enough evidence to invalidate this so-called election, if not outright declare Clinton the rightful winner.
I still have concerns about this after it was demonstrated for all to see how easy it was to hack and alter the Diebold voting machines and the issue was just ignored.

I think denial was a part of it. Gore getting frustrated with the recounts was another part. Of course Bush didn't want to take it seriously the same way Trump doesn't want the Russia thing taken seriously.

But there was a demonstration just how easy it was to change those results.

Our election integrity has been a mess since Bush v Gore. This year it escalated.

I think Comey should have been fired. Obama should have fired him after the Oct surprise letter but that would have created a political firestorm.

But none of that is mutually exclusive of Trump firing Comey because Comey couldn't be controlled. This just raises the likelihood Trump was involved in the Russian efforts to influence the campaign. There's no way his underlings did all this without Trump knowing what they were doing.
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Old 9th May 2017, 06:54 PM   #171
BobTheCoward
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Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
There's healthy, logical, rational skepticism.

And then there's simply hyperpartisan denial, driven by a personal political agenda.

Like 9-11 Truthers, Holocaust Deniers, and Moon Landing nuts.
Which I do not have because I'm not a trump supporter (or a Clinton supporters). My political agenda is so off the grid of American politics that I really don't fit into the US framework.
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Old 9th May 2017, 06:55 PM   #172
Hercules56
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Why do you insist on reaching conclusions without evidence? First it was they did something wrong, and now you say they didn't. Both are positions without evidence.
Excuse me, but did you just say that there is no evidence Flynn, or Page, or Trump has done anything wrong?

No evidence at all?

That's not intelligent skepticism, that's just hyper-partisan denial.

Welcome to the world of 9-11 Truthers and Holocaust Deniers, my friend.
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Old 9th May 2017, 06:56 PM   #173
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This sure is one finely-tuned machine!
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Old 9th May 2017, 06:57 PM   #174
ChristianProgressive
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I have issues with three of those but I just want to focus on one?

Where does it say you can't have a fair election because a private entity presents doctored documents?
Because changing a person's vote by lying to them is really no different than doing it more directly.

Furthermore, wikileaks is not a private entitty, it is a front and disseminator of Russian propaganda.
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Old 9th May 2017, 06:57 PM   #175
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Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
Excuse me, but did you just say that there is no evidence Flynn, or Page, or Trump has done anything wrong?

No evidence at all?

That's not intelligent skepticism, that's just hyper-partisan denial.

Welcome to the world of 9-11 Truthers and Holocaust Deniers, my friend.
I never specified who I of course think Flynn and page did something wrong. I do think Trump has does wrong things (Trump University), but Russian stuff there is a lack of evidence.
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Old 9th May 2017, 06:57 PM   #176
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Originally Posted by ChristianProgressive View Post
Breaking news that may shed light on the timing of this newest bit of autocracy:

https://www.facebook.com/newsandguts...42888802782762
http://www.cnn.com/2017/05/09/politi...ry-fbi-russia/

Justice Department under Comey issued subpoena against Flynn, hours before he was fired?

Just a coincidence.

There's nothing there.

Look away!!!! Look away!!!!

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Old 9th May 2017, 06:57 PM   #177
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Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
Manafort will be forced to register an an agent of a Foreign Regime.

Flynn violated the Logan Act.

Trump violated The Foreign Corrupt Practices Act.

And this was all BEFORE Trump became President.

There's nothing there?

Tell that to Nixon.
I know. What is with people still spouting the nonsense there is no evidence.

There is growing evidence of wrongdoing here. Just because the investigation has not concluded does not mean there is no evidence.
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Old 9th May 2017, 06:58 PM   #178
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Originally Posted by ChristianProgressive View Post
Because changing a person's vote by lying to them is really no different than doing it more directly.

Furthermore, wikileaks is not a private entitty, it is a front and disseminator of Russian propaganda.
You can be a private entity that serves a government interest. That is why people had such a problem with blackwater.

You are allowed to lie to people in this country.
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Old 9th May 2017, 06:59 PM   #179
Hercules56
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I never specified who I of course think Flynn and page did something wrong. I do think Trump has does wrong things (Trump University), but Russian stuff there is a lack of evidence.
Then you haven't been paying attention.

Trump helped build a hotel in Azerbaijan in a horrible location, with the help of a corrupt Transportation Minister who has a track record of building very wasteful projects and has ties with the Iranian Revolutionary Guard.

And that's just the beginning.
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Old 9th May 2017, 06:59 PM   #180
ChristianProgressive
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
I still have concerns about this after it was demonstrated for all to see how easy it was to hack and alter the Diebold voting machines and the issue was just ignored.

I think denial was a part of it. Gore getting frustrated with the recounts was another part. Of course Bush didn't want to take it seriously the same way Trump doesn't want the Russia thing taken seriously.

But there was a demonstration just how easy it was to change those results.

Our election integrity has been a mess since Bush v Gore. This year it escalated.

I think Comey should have been fired. Obama should have fired him after the Oct surprise letter but that would have created a political firestorm.

But none of that is mutually exclusive of Trump firing Comey because Comey couldn't be controlled. This just raises the likelihood Trump was involved in the Russian efforts to influence the campaign. There's no way his underlings did all this without Trump knowing what they were doing.
I'm not disagreeing with you on any major point here.
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Old 9th May 2017, 06:59 PM   #181
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
I know. What is with people still spouting the nonsense there is no evidence.

There is growing evidence of wrongdoing here. Just because the investigation has not concluded does not mean there is no evidence.
Evidence you are unwilling to share is the same as no evidence for skepticism.
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Old 9th May 2017, 06:59 PM   #182
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I have issues with three of those but I just want to focus on one?

Where does it say you can't have a fair election because a private entity presents doctored documents?
Private entity?

Do you not know the difference between a government, Russia, and a private entity?

And for the record, we do have laws against foreign influence in our elections.
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Old 9th May 2017, 07:00 PM   #183
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Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
Then you haven't been paying attention.

Trump helped build a hotel in Azerbaijan in a horrible location, with the help of a corrupt Transportation Minister who has a track record of building very wasteful projects and has ties with the Iranian Revolutionary Guard.

And that's just the beginning.
Which isn't evidence of election wrongdoing.
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Old 9th May 2017, 07:00 PM   #184
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
The FBI is free to do what it wants. We simply should not accept their opinions without them presenting evidence.
So they fired Flynn without evidence?
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Old 9th May 2017, 07:01 PM   #185
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http://www.cnn.com/2017/05/09/politi...ry-fbi-russia/

Washington (CNN)Federal prosecutors have issued grand jury subpoenas to associates of former National Security Advisor Michael Flynn seeking business records, as part of the ongoing probe of Russian meddling in last year's election, according to people familiar with the matter. CNN learned of the subpoenas hours before President Donald Trump fired FBI director James Comey.

The subpoenas represent the first sign of a significant escalation of activity in the FBI's broader investigation begun last July into possible ties between Trump campaign associates and Russia.





Huh, Trump fired Comey right after Comey steps up the Russiagate investigation?

Smells like a cover up
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Old 9th May 2017, 07:02 PM   #186
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
So they fired Flynn without evidence?
They made a claim. I don't accept it.
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Old 9th May 2017, 07:03 PM   #187
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Private entity?

Do you not know the difference between a government, Russia, and a private entity?

And for the record, we do have laws against foreign influence in our elections.
WikiLeaks is certainly private.

And those laws shouldn't exist by the way, but that is a different conversation
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Old 9th May 2017, 07:04 PM   #188
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
As skeptics we don't accept claims where the evidence is presented in secret. We require evidence in the open to base conclusions.
There is a preponderance of evidence something's wrong here. Feel free to go off into Lala Land blissfully reassured you personally are carrying the torch for skepticism.
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Old 9th May 2017, 07:04 PM   #189
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Which isn't evidence of election wrongdoing.
No, it is evidence of compromising ties with Russian interests.

Ties that could be used to blackmail him.

However, we KNOW that Carter Page, who Trump named as a campaign advisor, was talking to Russian intelligence agents.

We also know that Paul Manafort, his former campaign manager, is being forced to register as a Foreign Agent, due to his work for the Russian-puppet leader of Ukraine.

We know that Michael Flynn illegally accepted payments from a foreign power, in violation of his military retirement regulations. That foreign power is Russia. Federal Grand Jury has now issued subpoenas.



But yeah, there's nothing there. They should end the investigation immediately.

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Old 9th May 2017, 07:06 PM   #190
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
They made a claim. I don't accept it.
FACT: Flynn broke the law by accepting payment from a foreign government. The acting AG warned Trump about Flynn's connections to Russia. President Obama warned Trump not to trust or hire Flynn.

But you think there's "nothing there".

LOL!!!!!

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Old 9th May 2017, 07:07 PM   #191
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Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
No, it is evidence of compromising ties with Russian interests.

Ties that could be used to blackmail him.

However, we KNOW that Carter Page, who Trump named as a campaign advisor, was talking to Russian intelligence agents.

We also know that Paul Manafort, his former campaign manager, is being forced to register as a Foreign Agent, due to his work for the Russian-puppet leader of Ukraine.

We know that Michael Flynn illegally accepted payments from a foreign power, in violation of his military retirement regulations. That foreign power is Russia. Federal Grand Jury has now issued subpoenas.



But yeah, there's nothing there. They should end the investigation immediately.

Why do you keep on insisting that someone must reach a conclusion given the lack of evidence? Investigators are free to do as they wish. If they make a claim, they are responsible for presenting evidence. Until then, I don't have a conclusion about who did what when.
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Old 9th May 2017, 07:08 PM   #192
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Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
FACT: Flynn broke the law by accepting payment from a foreign government. The acting AG warned Trump about Flynn's connections to Russia. President Obama warned Trump not to trust or hire Flynn.

But you think there's "nothing there".

LOL!!!!!

You don't accept Trump's claim on the reason given for firing Flynn, either, right?
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Old 9th May 2017, 07:08 PM   #193
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Why do you keep on insisting that someone must reach a conclusion given the lack of evidence? Investigators are free to do as they wish. If they make a claim, they are responsible for presenting evidence. Until then, I don't have a conclusion about who did what when.
We know that Flynn violated the Logan Act and the regulations pertaining to his military retirement.

Both were laws broken.

You actually gonna deny all of this?

Wow.
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Old 9th May 2017, 07:10 PM   #194
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Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
We know that Flynn violated the Logan Act and the regulations pertaining to his military retirement.

Both were laws broken.

You actually gonna deny all of this?

Wow.
I haven't said he didn't.
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Old 9th May 2017, 07:10 PM   #195
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
You don't accept Trump's claim on the reason given for firing Flynn, either, right?
Last time I checked, Trump fired Flynn because he was not honest.

Not because he violated the Logan Act. Not because be violated the terms of his military retirement. Not because of his connections to Turkey and Russia. Trump doesn't care about any of that.

It appears Trump thinks the cover-up is worse than the crime.
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Old 9th May 2017, 07:10 PM   #196
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Originally Posted by ChristianProgressive View Post
On the contrary, a whole bunch of people are saying just that: the election was stolen. And those serious claims need a full investigation. This is not some easy to dismiss or easily refute claim like the Birth Certificate.

16 domesticand at least one foreign intelligence and//or law enforcement agency has said there is credible evidence that Russian operatives influenced the outcome of the election. This information has been corroborated by several independent media outlets.

GIven the supreme importance of guaranteeing power in our government is ONLY transferred by a demonstrably clean vote the Usurper's removal of the only remaining gov't official with both the will and the necessary power to get to the bottom of this is damning.
(emphasis added)


The two highlighted phrases are not synonymous.
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Old 9th May 2017, 07:17 PM   #197
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
(emphasis added)
The two highlighted phrases are not synonymous.
No but if you add in Comey's apparent personal bias that Clinton was guilty of something he just couldn't prove you might make a case.


The plot thickens. Am I the only one who didn't know there was a Grand Jury convened?

It would appear those subpoenas were issued before the 'Comey fired' letter went out.
Quote:
CNN learned of the subpoenas hours before President Donald Trump fired FBI director James Comey.

The subpoenas represent the first sign of a significant escalation of activity in the FBI's broader investigation begun last July into possible ties between Trump campaign associates and Russia.
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Old 9th May 2017, 07:32 PM   #198
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Wait, are you now saying that Comey did not mishandle the Hillary email affair?
If that was the actual reason, why wait 5 months?

These two things can be true at once:

1) Comey mishandled the Clinton email fake scandal.
2) It's deeply concerning that Trump fired him.
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Old 9th May 2017, 07:38 PM   #199
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
And not praising him when he said he wasn't, right?

Gotta say, genius move by Trump here, blaming it all on being unfiar to Hillary!
I'd say only to Trump fans that really don't care because they'd have thought it a genius move no matter what he did including having him called to the White House and publicly executed on the front lawn.

The issue with Trump's claim is that at the time Trump was acting as Comey's cheerleader. You don't get to cheer on someone and then six months later declare that the very thing you cheered on was a firing offence. If it's a firing offence now, then it was 6 months ago too when you were all for it. What that reeks of is hypocrisy.

There is also the matter that the actions aren't Trump's concern as a boss. They were dealt with under Comey's boss at the time, Obama. If it was a fireable offence, then he should have been fired then. If you don't get why then look at it this way. You do something in your job that breeches the rules. Your boss considers it and lets you off with a warning. Six months later a new boss comes in and decides that the warning was insufficient and fires you for something that you didn't even do on his watch and had been actioned already. See why such a thing is unfair?

What else do we let this sort of thing happen for? If a new moderator doesn't like how one of your posts was handled six months ago, should they be allowed to have you banned over it? In a new Prosecutor decides that he didn't like that you were warned rather than prosecuted for something, should he be able to restart legal actions against you after they were dealt with?

If this sort of thing is allowable and fine, then no one is ever safe from further retaliation over their actions because anyone can later revise the issue and take further actions against you. This is a totally unjustifiable and unfair way to live, and why such things as double jeopardy laws were included in our criminal justice systems.

Now in all of this, I'm not disagreeing with Trump firing Comey, he has that right, though it is rarely used, but what I am saying is that it's not a Genius move to blame it on the way that he handled the Clinton Email Case since at the time Trump was his biggest cheer-leader and so now in claiming to be firing him for it, Trump is behaving hypocritically.
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Last edited by PhantomWolf; 9th May 2017 at 07:42 PM.
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Old 9th May 2017, 07:41 PM   #200
thaiboxerken
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Originally Posted by TraneWreck View Post
If that was the actual reason, why wait 5 months?

These two things can be true at once:

1) Comey mishandled the Clinton email fake scandal.
2) It's deeply concerning that Trump fired him.
It's like going into a friend's wallet and taking $20. Then,when getting caught doing so, saying "you told me last year I could borrow $20."
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