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Old 17th May 2017, 06:59 AM   #41
marplots
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Originally Posted by logger View Post
None. You did read what I posted?
Every word.
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Old 17th May 2017, 07:02 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by desmirelle View Post
America is supposedly the 'melting pot' nation and here is an example of going out of the way to emphasize difference, rather than celebrate a unified struggle and achievement (We've survived college and conquered it, now getting our symbol of this conquest - the diploma) of a group of students who are in other ways very diverse.
Originally Posted by logger View Post
Agreed, it is fascinating that others can't see that.
Again, this is STUNNING historical ignorance.

Once more, black student groups forming on universities to help one another graduate and then celebrating that extra work they have done together is a RESPONSE to what has inhibited their inclusion in the "melting pot" (a dumb old metaphor in its own right).

Last edited by TraneWreck; 17th May 2017 at 07:04 AM.
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Old 17th May 2017, 07:05 AM   #43
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Instead of framing it in terms of segregation, it would be better to ask why some black students want the group affiliation by race - why is it important enough to them to hold an additional graduation ceremony? It can't just be about double-dipping on the outrageous gown rental fees.
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Old 17th May 2017, 07:06 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by TraneWreck View Post
Again, this is STUNNING historical ignorance.

Once more, black student groups forming on universities to help one another graduate and then celebrating that extra work they have done together is a RESPONSE to what has inhibited their inclusion in the "melting pot" (a dumb old metaphor in its own right).
Just as Greek immigrants did before them.
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Old 17th May 2017, 07:07 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by marplots View Post
Instead of framing it in terms of segregation, it would be better to ask why some black students want the group affiliation by race - why is it important enough to them to hold an additional graduation ceremony? It can't just be about double-dipping on the outrageous gown rental fees.
Why do other student organizations throw graduation parties?
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Old 17th May 2017, 07:08 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
Just as Greek immigrants did before them.
To be fair, that happened more than 15 minutes ago, so I don't think we can reasonably expect anyone to learn from that example.
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Old 17th May 2017, 07:12 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
Why do other student organizations throw graduation parties?
Chicks. Duh.
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Old 17th May 2017, 07:18 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by marplots View Post
Chicks. Duh.
Do you think black students may, through magic of course, have similar motivations to white students? I mean they are both nominally human. Despite those stupid red pants indicating otherwise.
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Old 17th May 2017, 07:19 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by TraneWreck View Post
To be fair, that happened more than 15 minutes ago, so I don't think we can reasonably expect anyone to learn from that example.
But they left behind all of those inspiring student organizations.
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Old 17th May 2017, 07:21 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
Do you think black students may, through magic of course, have similar motivations to white students? I mean they are both nominally human. Despite those stupid red pants indicating otherwise.
I think it's quite likely. Especially after getting indoctrinated with an elite Harvard degree. They is more like each other than I am like any of them.
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Old 17th May 2017, 07:32 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by marplots View Post
I think it's quite likely. Especially after getting indoctrinated with an elite Harvard degree. They is more like each other than I am like any of them.
Grammar jokes are so state school. No wonder we didn't get into Harvard.
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Old 17th May 2017, 07:32 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by TraneWreck View Post
No, because they're the ones that spent more than 100 years devastating the very community that is celebrating achievement in the face of great odds.

Your example was not just wrong and insulting - please provide the list of crimes committed by black student groups at Harvard - it was also deeply relevant to reason those groups exist, not that you knew that when you were making the idiotic comparison.
So if I used another group you would have understood my point instead of going into your typical emotional arguing? And I don't know of any crimes blacks have committed, that isn't what this thread is about.



Quote:
You started this thread, which would make one think you actually had a point. That you've reverted so quickly to this style of asking rhetorical questions to hide the fact that you don't have anything to say on a topic you chose is just embarrassing.
Does any one else here agree with this?

Seems to be a very simple question I asked in the thread, is it wrong?
Quote:
No, this is not reverse racism. Again, define racism and explain how this is racist.
Because they are separating themselves through race. Its more about segregation than racism. I should have said reverse segregation, that is what we're discussing.
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Old 17th May 2017, 07:34 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by marplots View Post
Every word.
So you don't understand "we don't have"?
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Old 17th May 2017, 07:35 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by marplots View Post
Instead of framing it in terms of segregation, it would be better to ask why some black students want the group affiliation by race - why is it important enough to them to hold an additional graduation ceremony? It can't just be about double-dipping on the outrageous gown rental fees.
Would you ask that of a whites wanted to do it?
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Old 17th May 2017, 07:36 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by TraneWreck View Post
Again, this is STUNNING historical ignorance.

Once more, black student groups forming on universities to help one another graduate and then celebrating that extra work they have done together is a RESPONSE to what has inhibited their inclusion in the "melting pot" (a dumb old metaphor in its own right).
No its simple reverse discrimination, or reverse segregation.
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Old 17th May 2017, 07:37 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
Grammar jokes are so state school. No wonder we didn't get into Harvard.
Now where did I set that chew toy... oh yeah.

I hope someone took the time to see what degrees these afrocans are getting. I'm guessing Liberal Arts. Harvard has those, right?
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Old 17th May 2017, 07:39 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by logger View Post
Would you ask that of a whites wanted to do it?
Yes, if I were curious about it. Why not?

I'd ask, "What the hell were you thinking whitey? Are you racist or just stupid?"

But you know, I'd be careful to ask from a distance in case I had to run away fast. I got a bit of color in me.
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Old 17th May 2017, 07:40 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by logger View Post
I think it's destructive, I think it divides people. Would you accept a white graduation?
I would, so long as we accept black ones.

It's either both or neither.
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Old 17th May 2017, 07:43 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by logger View Post
So if I used another group you would have understood my point instead of going into your typical emotional arguing? And I don't know of any crimes blacks have committed, that isn't what this thread is about.
Again, I understand your point. It was dumb and wrong.

But go ahead, make your point without reference to the KKK and we can see if it makes even a tiny bit more sense.

Quote:
Because they are separating themselves through race. Its more about segregation than racism. I should have said reverse segregation, that is what we're discussing.
So, to be clear, you agree this isn't an example of racism?

As for segregation, again, the students are gathering together to help one another because centuries of formal and informal segregation specifically aimed at harming them have made things more difficult. By grouping together to support one another, they have more success than going it alone. They are unifying based on shared experience.

And the extent to which this is expressed is with a celebration prior to general graduation. They aren't demanding that no one participate in the general graduation or that the official ceremony separates based on race.

And, of course, ironically, if you went around to all the student parties before and after graduation, you would find many, many more at Harvard that are all white. They don't have to say, "this is for whites only," because the centuries of oppression have made most of those social circles unreachable by non-whites.
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Old 17th May 2017, 07:45 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by logger View Post
No its simple reverse discrimination, or reverse segregation.
Haha, you don't understand what these words mean.

Discrimination?

Quote:
the unjust or prejudicial treatment of different categories of people or things, especially on the grounds of race, age, or sex.
Please explain how black students having a party is an unjust treatment of other students.
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Old 17th May 2017, 07:58 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by marplots View Post
Now where did I set that chew toy... oh yeah.

I hope someone took the time to see what degrees these afrocans are getting. I'm guessing Liberal Arts. Harvard has those, right?
Important areas of study like math, physics and chemistry to name a few.

Yes, I have a liberal arts degree and never get to say "you want fries with that" at work.

Unless I'm buying lunch on the corporate dime.
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Old 17th May 2017, 07:58 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by marplots View Post

I'd ask, "What the hell were you thinking whitey? Are you racist or just stupid?"

.
Agreed, so you disagree with the TraneWreck?
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Old 17th May 2017, 07:59 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
I would, so long as we accept black ones.

It's either both or neither.
You don't think it's destructive?

Even though it should be allowed, I don't think it should be encouraged.
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Old 17th May 2017, 08:02 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by logger View Post
I see things like this being very much accepted today.

Is it wrong?

https://www.yahoo.com/news/black-har...043624239.html
Of course it is not wrong.
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Old 17th May 2017, 08:02 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by TraneWreck View Post
Again, I understand your point. It was dumb and wrong.

But go ahead, make your point without reference to the KKK and we can see if it makes even a tiny bit more sense.
I think another emotional argument from you is one too many. I'm glad you finally got it, insults included. At least you're illustrative of one side of the ugly coin.


Quote:
So, to be clear, you agree this isn't an example of racism?[\quote]

Yes, but it would have to be examined further to nail that down. Segragations are usually one in the same with racists.

As for segregation, again, the students are gathering together to help one another because centuries of formal and informal segregation specifically aimed at harming them have made things more difficult. By grouping together to support one another, they have more success than going it alone. They are unifying based on shared experience.

And the extent to which this is expressed is with a celebration prior to general graduation. They aren't demanding that no one participate in the general graduation or that the official ceremony separates based on race.

And, of course, ironically, if you went around to all the student parties before and after graduation, you would find many, many more at Harvard that are all white. They don't have to say, "this is for whites only," because the centuries of oppression have made most of those social circles unreachable by non-whites.
So you'd be fine with a white celebration?
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Old 17th May 2017, 08:03 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by TraneWreck View Post
Haha, you don't understand what these words mean.

Discrimination?



Please explain how black students having a party is an unjust treatment of other students.
The same as white students having a party would be?
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Old 17th May 2017, 08:04 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by Crossbow View Post
Of course it is not wrong.
I already knew your opinion. Why is it not wrong?
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Old 17th May 2017, 08:04 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by logger View Post
Agreed, so you disagree with the TraneWreck?
I don't disagree, if that helps. It doesn't bother me that black students want to get together to celebrate being awarded a degree. It's kind of a big deal.
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Old 17th May 2017, 08:05 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by logger View Post
I think it's destructive, I think it divides people. Would you accept a white graduation?

I would accept or even support a "white graduation" event, under certain conditions. Chiefly, that it not pretend to be the "real" graduation, or in any way of comparable or greater importance to the university's official all-inclusive ceremony. Official university degree certificates would not be given out. (The organizers could design their own White Participation Trophies instead.) Speakers would neither be misled, nor make any misleading claims themselves, to the effect that they were university-invited commencement speakers (who, at Harvard, are typically ex-Presidents, present Secretaries of State, foreign present or former heads of state, Nobel Prize winners, and other individuals of comparable prestige). Hate speech in violation of the university's applicable codes of conduct would not be permitted. While the university itself might participate in terms of authorizing and providing facilities for the event, this participation would take place under the general guidelines for student-organization events without any special considerations or status. Attendance at the event would be open to all.

Furthermore, while I suppose this couldn't be a requirement, it would have my support (rather than my passive acceptance of it taking place) if its emphasis were on recognizing the achievements of those white students who had overcome particular challenges, such as poverty or disability, to reach that milestone.

Note that as far as we know, the black students' graduation referred to in the OP took place under all those same conditions.

Now, I know that no such "white graduation" is going to happen any time soon. That's because the people most motivated to organize it are white supremacist racists, who would find the conditions I listed incompatible with their agenda and would try their best to subvert them. It would also be opposed by a majority of non-racist whites, due largely to their being aware of that previous fact and therefore justifiably suspicious of a racist trojan horse. I wouldn't touch it myself, unless I had a major say in organizing it, and I have better things to do. The middle ground can often be a lonely place; in this case, it's a desolate wasteland far too depopulated to make such an event even a remote possibility.

What I would much rather see than any "white graduation" (however intentioned) would be an "underclass graduation" celebrating the struggles and achievements of students from impoverished and working-class families, regardless of race. Divisiveness along racial lines is the current favorite tool of the strengthening American oligarchy for getting public support for policies designed to maintain their privileges in a world of tightening resource limits by shifting all burdens to the working class. Screw the urban blacks one week, and the Trumpist rural whites the next, and you can count on half of your victims cheering you on, as long as you keep them convinced that race is the problem, and that their interests are on opposite sides of every issue. Don't let them notice that they have a lot more in common, and more common cause, with their different-race co-workers than with their race brothers in the head office who just cut their hours and benefits, again.

Logger, you seem apt to perceive and complain when it's other identity groups "being divisive," but not when it's you. The management appreciates that, and applauds your efforts.
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Old 17th May 2017, 08:06 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by logger View Post
I think another emotional argument from you is one too many. I'm glad you finally got it, insults included. At least you're illustrative of one side of the ugly coin.
This is pure, distilled logger: whining about emotion while advancing a position based entirely on gross emotions towards black college students; whining about insults while insulting someone; throwing around nonsense to avoid making a point.

Quote:
So you'd be fine with a white celebration?
There are literally hundreds of white celebrations on that campus every graduation. I have yet to protest any of them.

Again, you will continue to make silly arguments as long as you persist in believing there is a symmetry between a group unifying to exclude and oppress and a group unifying to battle against exclusion and oppression.
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Old 17th May 2017, 08:08 AM   #71
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Originally Posted by logger View Post
I already knew your opinion. Why is it not wrong?
If you actually knew my opinion, then you should not have ask for my opinion.

But to answer your question, ...

People hold private parties, ceremonies, meetings and other such things all the time. I have been to many such things myself and I am sure that you have been to at least a few of of them as well.
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Old 17th May 2017, 08:08 AM   #72
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Originally Posted by Myriad View Post
What I would much rather see than any "white graduation" (however intentioned) would be an "underclass graduation" celebrating the struggles and achievements of students from impoverished and working-class families, regardless of race.
Just want to add that there are such celebrations and such groups. In higher ed, they often take the form of special programs for first generations students. Also, there are scholarship organizations that target students from particularly difficult backgrounds (abusive homes, neglect, extreme poverty). They will form a cohort, offer support during the span of the college experience, and then celebrate together for graduation. These are, of course, school specific.

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Old 17th May 2017, 08:10 AM   #73
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Originally Posted by logger View Post
You don't think it's destructive?
To allow people to freely associate? No. I don't.
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Old 17th May 2017, 08:11 AM   #74
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Originally Posted by logger View Post
So you'd be fine with a white celebration?
What, like the KA spring formal?
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Old 17th May 2017, 08:14 AM   #75
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Originally Posted by TraneWreck View Post
Again, you will continue to make silly arguments as long as you persist in believing there is a symmetry between a group unifying to exclude and oppress and a group unifying to battle against exclusion and oppression.
Copy that into your form library and it will save you from having to keep writing new responses in this thread. You don't draft motions from scratch, why would you do that here.
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Old 17th May 2017, 08:15 AM   #76
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
Copy that into your form library and it will save you from having to keep writing new responses in this thread. You don't draft motions from scratch, why would you do that here.
Sage advice.
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Old 17th May 2017, 08:17 AM   #77
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Originally Posted by TraneWreck View Post
Sage advice.
Efficiency is the only way to support your rapidly increasing hourly rate.
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Old 17th May 2017, 08:18 AM   #78
Argumemnon
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Originally Posted by TraneWreck View Post
Again, you will continue to make silly arguments as long as you persist in believing there is a symmetry between a group unifying to exclude and oppress and a group unifying to battle against exclusion and oppression.
To be entirely fair, however, there are plenty of divisive people, rhetoric and ideologies on both sides (on the extreme, usually).
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Old 17th May 2017, 08:23 AM   #79
TraneWreck
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
To be entirely fair, however, there are plenty of divisive people, rhetoric and ideologies on both sides (on the extreme, usually).
Sure, it's just that one group has almost all the power. When a bunch of black college kids get together and have a party that I'm not invited to...well, I manage to do quite well in spite of that, regardless of how extreme anything said at that party may be.

When a bunch of white bankers decide to give out loans with higher interest rates based on race (which is a current Wells Fargo scandal*), that tends to be much more damaging.

*
Quote:
Wells Fargo & Co agreed to pay $175 million to resolve allegations it charged African-Americans and Hispanics higher rates and fees on mortgages even when they qualified for better deals during the housing boom, the U.S. Justice Department said on Thursday.
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Old 17th May 2017, 08:24 AM   #80
Myriad
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Originally Posted by TraneWreck View Post
Just want to add that there are such celebrations and such groups. In higher ed, they often take the form of special programs for first generations students. Also, there are scholarship organizations that target students from particularly difficult backgrounds (abusive homes, neglect, extreme poverty). They will form a cohort, offer support during the span of the college experience, and then celebrate together for graduation. These are, of course, school specific.

I knew such organizations exist; I wasn't aware that they hosted special graduation-related events but that's not surprising.

The "first-generation student" distinction may be becoming obsolete, though. Present young generations are learning that a college degree is no longer a ticket to a comfortable middle class (especially when accompanied by student debt), and is often a requirement for a mere living wage.
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