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Old 17th May 2017, 01:23 PM   #121
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank View Post
I find this more acceptable than you can possibly imagine.
Yes, I know. It would seem most are with you on it.

Which is why I posted it, to show the hypocracy of so many who claim they want equality.

Last edited by logger; 17th May 2017 at 01:26 PM.
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Old 17th May 2017, 01:28 PM   #122
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Originally Posted by logger View Post
Which is why I posted it, to show the hypocracy of so many who claim they want equality.
Is that coming soon?
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Old 17th May 2017, 01:32 PM   #123
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
Is that coming soon?
Shocking you don't see it.

It it does add your opinion to it.
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Old 17th May 2017, 01:57 PM   #124
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Originally Posted by logger View Post
I'm very much interested when you have time!
I'll start now.

There's nothing inherently wrong with a "blacks only" or "whites only" event. It becomes problematic only when something happens at those events that would create problems for people of the excluded race/class/religion/sexual orientation/pick your discriminant. What you have to look at is why those people are getting together in some sort of exclusive activity. If it is to celebrate, acknowledge, or otherwise share in a shared experience, then there's no problem.

Being black in America is a shared experience. Every black person experiences some sort of consequence of being black. We do not live in a color blind society, whether or not that is anyone's goal. Someone else pointed out a very good illustration of this:

Originally Posted by TraneWreck View Post
Are you also one of those people, like Trump, who whine about violence in the black community and "black on black" crime and think the black community should take responsibility for cleaning up its culture?

Because university student groups celebrating the accomplishments of black students, which is the result of dedicated effort to make sure that black students don't drop out, is exactly that sort of thing.
TraneWreck is exactly right. For whatever reason, black people do indeed deal with this, and one of the messages of that ceremony is going to be that those black people who are fortunate to have the talent and opportunity to attend and graduate from Harvard have a special responsibility, a different responsibility than you or I might have, to try and address those issues and solve those problems within their community, for the people who look like them.

These people have something in common, and they will not be the only special ceremony for people who have something in common. People in sub-cultures or small communities, voluntary or involuntary, will mark an occasion as significant as graduation with some sort of activity that focuses on the special meaning for the people of that community.

Suppose someone were to say, "Well then, we should have a special ceremony for white people." To that, I would say, "Why?" What common experience do you have? What special obligation do white people have to society at large, or to the while community specifically? Historically, the only common interest shared by white people is to reserve special status for themselves, restricting economic or political opportunity only to them. Perhaps there is something else that matters, and some other reason to gather in a "whites only" activity, but for the life of me I can't think of what it would be.

If this blacks only ceremony is just an excuse to gin up some hate against white people, then that would be bad, but I don't see that happening.

Finally, I said that I would object if this were an official school activity, and (not previously said) moreso if this were a state sponsored institution. The official ceremony, the "real" graduation ceremony should be, and is, inclusive for all graduates. These "extra" ceremonies are not part of that.
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Old 17th May 2017, 02:32 PM   #125
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Are non-black people banned from this event?
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Old 17th May 2017, 02:38 PM   #126
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Originally Posted by 332nd View Post
Are non-black people banned from this event?
No, which is why I don't see why it's an issue. They stated that everyone is welcome. The difference is that it will be focused on Black culture and issues and in acknowledging black students and staff that would often be over looked in the main graduation ceremonies.

I don't see the issue, there is no segregation, nor any excluding of anyone that wants to be there.
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Old 17th May 2017, 03:10 PM   #127
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Originally Posted by logger View Post
Yes, I know. It would seem most are with you on it.

Which is why I posted it, to show the hypocracy of so many who claim they want equality.
One needs at least some degree of credibility as well basic reading and writing skills in order to be a good teacher.
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Old 17th May 2017, 03:13 PM   #128
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Originally Posted by logger View Post
We don't do it because we don't want to be segregated.
I've already addressed that this is not segregation. Others have as well. Your point can be made without misusing the word.

Originally Posted by logger View Post
You're discussing apples and oranges. A group separating itself on the bases of race is not right. We don't celebrate that in this country.
My comparisons are exactly equal in meaning. A group subset celebrating those that are a part of it accomplishing something. Whether through shared culture or shared experiences. It really isn't any different. By percentage of the US population, I imagine a number of subsets of European decent are within the same range as African-Americans. I am sure if a specific African country made up a large enough percentage they would also separate into that group.

Unfortunately, a large number of African-Americans are not familiar with their country of origin or it's culture, given their method of getting here and treatment when trying to retain that culture once they landed.

To be clear about your opinion, if say, the group was celebrating Kenyan graduates, that would be fine. But celebrating Black/African-American graduates is offensive?

Again I can't see the issue if the funds are generated from non-public sources, the celebration is not attempting to replace the official graduation and there are no exclusions for attendees.

Last edited by rdwight; 17th May 2017 at 03:15 PM.
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Old 17th May 2017, 03:50 PM   #129
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank View Post
I find this more acceptable than you can possibly imagine.
The fact that everyone regardless of race is invited to applaud the accomplishments of black graduates?
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Old 17th May 2017, 04:56 PM   #130
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Originally Posted by Crossbow View Post
One needs at least some degree of credibility as well basic reading and writing skills in order to be a good teacher.
Not much credibility from leftists. And yes some leftists have REading and writing skills but are horrible teachers. Usually ones that focus on the most petty things, it gives their ego a charge but shows what they truly are.
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Old 17th May 2017, 05:02 PM   #131
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
I'll start now.

There's nothing inherently wrong with a "blacks only" or "whites only" event. It becomes problematic only when something happens at those events that would create problems for people of the excluded race/class/religion/sexual orientation/pick your discriminant. What you have to look at is why those people are getting together in some sort of exclusive activity. If it is to celebrate, acknowledge, or otherwise share in a shared experience, then there's no problem.

Being black in America is a shared experience. Every black person experiences some sort of consequence of being black. We do not live in a color blind society, whether or not that is anyone's goal. Someone else pointed out a very good illustration of this:
I can't even imagine a bunch of white folks getting together to celebrate being white. Getting together to celebrate being Irish, that's fine.


Quote:
TraneWreck is exactly right. For whatever reason, black people do indeed deal with this, and one of the messages of that ceremony is going to be that those black people who are fortunate to have the talent and opportunity to attend and graduate from Harvard have a special responsibility, a different responsibility than you or I might have, to try and address those issues and solve those problems within their community, for the people who look like them.

These people have something in common, and they will not be the only special ceremony for people who have something in common. People in sub-cultures or small communities, voluntary or involuntary, will mark an occasion as significant as graduation with some sort of activity that focuses on the special meaning for the people of that community.

Suppose someone were to say, "Well then, we should have a special ceremony for white people." To that, I would say, "Why?" What common experience do you have? What special obligation do white people have to society at large, or to the while community specifically? Historically, the only common interest shared by white people is to reserve special status for themselves, restricting economic or political opportunity only to them. Perhaps there is something else that matters, and some other reason to gather in a "whites only" activity, but for the life of me I can't think of what it would be.
I would imagine it would be the same thing blacks would celebrate without celebrating race.
Quote:
If this blacks only ceremony is just an excuse to gin up some hate against white people, then that would be bad, but I don't see that happening.
Agreed, just more sanctioned division.
Quote:
Finally, I said that I would object if this were an official school activity, and (not previously said) moreso if this were a state sponsored institution. The official ceremony, the "real" graduation ceremony should be, and is, inclusive for all graduates. These "extra" ceremonies are not part of that.
Why would you object? You've laid out the case that it is perfectly fine. Seems you ought to be upset the university is not sanctioning it.
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Old 17th May 2017, 05:10 PM   #132
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Originally Posted by logger View Post
Not much credibility from leftists. And yes some leftists have REading and writing skills but are horrible teachers. Usually ones that focus on the most petty things, it gives their ego a charge but shows what they truly are.
As my grandfather used to say:

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Old 17th May 2017, 06:06 PM   #133
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Originally Posted by logger View Post
I can't even imagine a bunch of white folks getting together to celebrate being white. Getting together to celebrate being Irish, that's fine.
The Harvard group got together to celebrate graduating from Harvard and are black. The Irish group got together to celebrate being Irish and are white. What is the difference?
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Old 17th May 2017, 06:32 PM   #134
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Originally Posted by Spindrift View Post
The Harvard group got together to celebrate graduating from Harvard and are black. The Irish group got together to celebrate being Irish and are white. What is the difference?
Well, there is a difference. The Irish are celebrating common national heritage, regardless of race. I don't think anyone would raise an eyebrow over Kenyan nationals or their descendants celebrating graduation. The Harvard graduate's criteria was specifically for being black, not graduating and just happen to be black. Lotsa crackers feel like they are accused of racist behavior, white privilege, etc day after day, so it smacks of double-standard/hypocrisy.
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Old 17th May 2017, 06:48 PM   #135
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Originally Posted by MostlyDead View Post
Well, there is a difference. The Irish are celebrating common national heritage, regardless of race. I don't think anyone would raise an eyebrow over Kenyan nationals or their descendants celebrating graduation. The Harvard graduate's criteria was specifically for being black, not graduating and just happen to be black. Lotsa crackers feel like they are accused of racist behavior, white privilege, etc day after day, so it smacks of double-standard/hypocrisy.
First requirement was Harvard graduate.

Given that most African-Americans are descended from slaves with little to no knowledge of their country of origin, a generic black celebration instead of a specific country is quite understandable.

Lotsa crackers are accused of racist behavior because they commit racist behavior. What other people do has nothing to do with or nor does it excuse that behavior.
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Old 17th May 2017, 07:24 PM   #136
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Originally Posted by Spindrift View Post
First requirement was Harvard graduate.
Disagreed. The first criteria was being black- the pool in question consisted of only Harvard graduates, unless you suggest auto mechanics were being considered to partake in the graduation ceremony. At best, both black and Harvard graduate were first requirements..

Quote:
Given that most African-Americans are descended from slaves with little to no knowledge of their country of origin, a generic black celebration instead of a specific country is quite understandable.
Okay, but what is a 'generic' black celebration? If someone cannot trace his European ancestry, does he 'generically' celebrate being white? That doesn't seem to follow.

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Lotsa crackers are accused of racist behavior because they commit racist behavior. What other people do has nothing to do with or nor does it excuse that behavior.
True. And lots get accused of what they are not doing (or what others do) because of their melanoma. But that is not the point: schmucks like Richard Spencer are rightfully condemned because of their 'white pride' rap; black pride is celebrated. I get the difference, but it still doesn't feel right.
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Old 17th May 2017, 08:19 PM   #137
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Originally Posted by logger View Post
I can't even imagine a bunch of white folks getting together to celebrate being white. Getting together to celebrate being Irish, that's fine.



I would imagine it would be the same thing blacks would celebrate without celebrating race.


Agreed, just more sanctioned division.

Why would you object? You've laid out the case that it is perfectly fine. Seems you ought to be upset the university is not sanctioning it.
As I noted earlier, it's a deeper examination that you are interested in. Feel free to stay superficial. It's not as much work.
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Old 17th May 2017, 08:23 PM   #138
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Originally Posted by MostlyDead View Post
Okay, but what is a 'generic' black celebration? If someone cannot trace his European ancestry, does he 'generically' celebrate being white? That doesn't seem to follow.
"Black" was defined over 4 centuries by slave owners and then subsequent oppression. It seems...tasteless to criticize the manner in which African Americans express their shared experience when a great deal of that shared experience was forced upon them against their will. It was an identity imposed on them, not one they chose.

"White" is not a constraining, limiting, oppressed category in America. To be clear, some white people are suffering and even oppressed, but not because they're white.

Quote:
True. And lots get accused of what they are not doing (or what others do) because of their melanoma. But that is not the point: schmucks like Richard Spencer are rightfully condemned because of their 'white pride' rap; black pride is celebrated. I get the difference, but it still doesn't feel right.
If you get the difference, there shouldn't much controversy, regardless of how you feel. There was no period of time in American history where people were humiliated, made to suffer, terrorized, abused because they were white (some white people obviously suffered these things). That is not true of black Americans.

Black pride is an expression of resilience in the face of oppression; white pride is an expression of oppression and terrorism.

Plenty of reasons for white people to be proud, even of our heritage, but "white pride" means something very specific in the United States of America.

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Old 17th May 2017, 08:45 PM   #139
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Originally Posted by MostlyDead View Post
True. And lots get accused of what they are not doing (or what others do) because of their melanoma. But that is not the point: schmucks like Richard Spencer are rightfully condemned because of their 'white pride' rap; black pride is celebrated. I get the difference, but it still doesn't feel right.
Do you get the difference?

When someone is putting you down for being part of a group, it makes sense to stand up and state that you are proud for being in that group. Black pride makes sense.

These days, that happens a little bit with white people as well, although we don't suffer economically, socially, or politically for our whiteness. However, people will still tell us that we ought to have "white guilt" for the evils that our ancestors heaped upon the world. On those occasions, a certain amount of "white pride" makes sense. Also, it was in Europe, but not in just one country, that the great strides in knowledge of the natural world occurred. Europe gave us Newton, Curie, Heisenberg, Einstein. If someone starts putting down white people, I'll gladly stand up for a proud heritage of achievement of the European people, but for the most part, I don't really need to. We aren't exactly put down except in an occasional political speech or classroom lecture.

So, I would say that I am descended from a noble line, and that my ancestors gave the world great gifts. That sort of "white pride" shouldn't bother anyone. Where it gets problematic is that that sort of white pride isn't the Richard Spencer or even Skeptic Tank version. My version is the kind that says, "There are many great role models among my ancestors." as opposed to the racist version, which is, "We are better than you, so you should be our servants."
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Old 17th May 2017, 09:41 PM   #140
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Originally Posted by TraneWreck View Post
"Black" was defined over 4 centuries by slave owners and then subsequent oppression. It seems...tasteless to criticize the manner in which African Americans express their shared experience when a great deal of that shared experience was forced upon them against their will. It was an identity imposed on them, not one they chose.
But why do (some) black Americans feel like they carry the Weight of the Ages with them? Anecdotally: playing baseball in high school, I (white) was first base, the shortstop was black. He did not, as far as I know, bear the cross of centuries of mistreatment any more than I wore a tri-cornered hat. We were both modern Americans. Still are.

Quote:
If you get the difference, there shouldn't much controversy, regardless of how you feel. There was no period of time in American history where people were humiliated, made to suffer, terrorized, abused because they were white (some white people obviously suffered these things). That is not true of black Americans.
But again, a twenty-first century American, of any flavor, has no reason to focus their identity on the sufferings of abstract ancestors. Maybe the luxury of being white, but I don't identify with centuries-old ancestors, for better or worse, and it carries a 'we are not one of you' vibe to see a celebration where whites are specifically excluded, based only on the color of their skin.
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Old 17th May 2017, 09:42 PM   #141
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Originally Posted by logger View Post
I see things like this being very much accepted today.

Is it wrong?

https://www.yahoo.com/news/black-har...043624239.html
Go through that story and replace "Black" and "African-American" with "White" and see if it sounds wrong to you.
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Old 17th May 2017, 09:47 PM   #142
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Do you get the difference?

When someone is putting you down for being part of a group, it makes sense to stand up and state that you are proud for being in that group. Black pride makes sense.
I think I do. What I do not agree with is the underlying assumption that 'someone' is putting down a Harvard graduate for being black. No one of consequence, anyway. Hillbilly Bob might resent those uppity blacks with their fancy-pants Ivy League graduate school degrees. But they are all to be commended for their work and achievements. This black-only celebration carries that uncomfortable feeling of divisiveness that rationalization does not dispel.
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Old 17th May 2017, 11:58 PM   #143
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Originally Posted by MostlyDead View Post
I think I do. What I do not agree with is the underlying assumption that 'someone' is putting down a Harvard graduate for being black. No one of consequence, anyway. Hillbilly Bob might resent those uppity blacks with their fancy-pants Ivy League graduate school degrees. But they are all to be commended for their work and achievements. This black-only celebration carries that uncomfortable feeling of divisiveness that rationalization does not dispel.
"That uncomfortable feeling of divisiveness" reminds me of the old yarn about the patient viewing Rorschach cards with his shrink. After identifying seven consecutive cards as "Breast, boobs, tits, hooters, etc..." the doctor tells him he's clearly got a fixation with female breasts. "Me? You're the one with the desk full of dirty pictures!"

Why would you get that uncomfortable feeling of divisiveness? When you can show us the hurdles due to their mere whiteness that white people have to overcome to graduate high school, get into a good college and then graduate, I might get some sympathy for the poor downtrodden white man.

Blacks, Native Americans, Latinos, Irish, Jews, Italians, Poles .... all at various times have had to overcome cultural and legal hurdles just for being black or Native American or whatever. Generic white folk don't face those obstacles. Yeah, they had to work hard, they may have come from a poor background, had an abusive parent, etc... But those minorities have those same problems IN ADDITIION to the first two strikes against them for simply being different.
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Old 18th May 2017, 02:15 AM   #144
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Originally Posted by TraneWreck View Post
No, they didn't. It was manifestly different treatment. Receiving an armed governmental escort is fundamentally different treatment than walking in the door by yourself.
Again, you're using "different treatment" so broadly as to become an entirely useless phrase. If I rob a convenience store and get arrested, yes I'm getting a different treatment than the guy I tried to rob. That's a stupid observation, though; the point is that the same rules apply to both persons, and the treatment I got has nothing to do with my skin colour.

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You're saying that white school children broke the law? That is very odd.
Now you're simply playing games. I suspect that you know exactly who did something wrong that required these actions.

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This was entirely because of the race of the children.
Then it was discrimination and it should be illegal. Of course, it wasn't, but your claim is that it was.
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Old 18th May 2017, 02:32 AM   #145
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Suppose someone were to say, "Well then, we should have a special ceremony for white people." To that, I would say, "Why?" What common experience do you have? What special obligation do white people have to society at large, or to the while community specifically? Historically, the only common interest shared by white people is to reserve special status for themselves, restricting economic or political opportunity only to them. Perhaps there is something else that matters, and some other reason to gather in a "whites only" activity, but for the life of me I can't think of what it would be.
Would you also extend that to the celebrations of 'black music', or 'black culture'? I have no problem with these (although not a fan of either), the issue for me is when someone says, "Well why would you celebrate white culture? It doesn't exist!" or "There's no such thing as white music." You can make a reasonable case for celebrating something without ethnic reference, and also for celebrating both separately - but the justification for celebrating one and not the other cannot IMO be separated from bigotry, self-hatred and racism.
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Old 18th May 2017, 03:53 AM   #146
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Originally Posted by MostlyDead View Post
I think I do. What I do not agree with is the underlying assumption that 'someone' is putting down a Harvard graduate for being black. No one of consequence, anyway. Hillbilly Bob might resent those uppity blacks with their fancy-pants Ivy League graduate school degrees. But they are all to be commended for their work and achievements. This black-only celebration carries that uncomfortable feeling of divisiveness that rationalization does not dispel.
There is not nearly so much racism today as there was when I was a child, and there wasn't nearly so much racism when I was a child as there was when my father was a child. Things are getting better. However, there are two things to note. First, there's still plenty of racism in the world. It isn't just Hillbilly Bob, either. Hillbilly Bob might be vocalizing it, but plenty of "people of consequence" think it, and some act on it. More importantly, it was not all that long ago. When this ceremony is held, there will be proud grandparents in that audience who once drank at a "colored" drinking fountain.

And, I'll emphasize what TraneWreck said again. There are still issues that affect the black community, such as "black on black" crime, and the white reaction to it. Yes, black people do still bear the burden of history.

Does the presence of these ceremonies or other special purpose "black" activities further the division that still exists, or help heal the wounds? That is a difficult question to answer. I think it could do either, depending on how it's handled.
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Old 18th May 2017, 04:08 AM   #147
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
Would you also extend that to the celebrations of 'black music', or 'black culture'? I have no problem with these (although not a fan of either), the issue for me is when someone says, "Well why would you celebrate white culture? It doesn't exist!" or "There's no such thing as white music." You can make a reasonable case for celebrating something without ethnic reference, and also for celebrating both separately - but the justification for celebrating one and not the other cannot IMO be separated from bigotry, self-hatred and racism.
Is there a "white culture"? There are certain aspects of American culture that are almost exclusively white, but is that the same thing? Any time I hear people refer to it as "white culture" as opposed to "small town America" or "yuppie culture" (would any celebrate that?) I hear an emphasis on white superiority.

As I noted before, there is nothing inherently wrong with the concept of having a "whites only" event, where somehow a common experience is being celebrated or acknowledged, but in practice every such even I've ever heard of has been one that encourages racial superiority or hatred.
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Old 18th May 2017, 05:22 AM   #148
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Really, why bother?
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Old 18th May 2017, 05:42 AM   #149
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Again, you're using "different treatment" so broadly as to become an entirely useless phrase. If I rob a convenience store and get arrested, yes I'm getting a different treatment than the guy I tried to rob. That's a stupid observation, though; the point is that the same rules apply to both persons, and the treatment I got has nothing to do with my skin colour.
Yes, in an example you specifically chose to eliminate the element of race, race was not an element.

Recall how this all began: should groups of white people gathering because they're white be treated exactly the same as groups of black people gathering because they're black. You seem to think that the answer has to be yes or some unnamed principle will be shattered.

If my principle is "equality under the law," history shows us that we need to treat these groups very differently. Groups of white people gathering because they're white have historically oppressed and restricted access to others - violating equality under the law. Groups of black people gathering have historically done so to demand fulfillment of that principle.

Thus, they can be treated very differently (different rules, allowed/not allowed...) on, say, college campuses, and the principle still holds.

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Now you're simply playing games. I suspect that you know exactly who did something wrong that required these actions.
Explain why that's relevant? Of course the reason that white children and black children needed to be treated differently in order to achieve the same level of access is because there were crimes committed against the black children. But the reason is not because the kids, themselves, did anything wrong. The treatment of the children is at issue.

Why they needed different treatment does not change the fact that they needed different treatment.

People in wheelchairs need wheelchair ramps. No one did anything illegal, but for the principle of equal access to be fulfilled, some categories of people require different treatment, different rules, different levels of government behavior.

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Then it was discrimination and it should be illegal. Of course, it wasn't, but your claim is that it was.
Again, that's an irrelevant point. As we saw in the South, just because something is illegal doesn't mean the matter is resolved. The government was required to intervene in a much different way for black students than white ones.

Thus, a legacy of laws treating the groups differently - Affirmative Action, eg - to rectify past discrimination and help mistreated groups fulfill their rights.
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Old 18th May 2017, 05:46 AM   #150
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Originally Posted by TraneWreck View Post
Yes, in an example you specifically chose to eliminate the element of race, race was not an element.
You are deliberately missing the point: the same rules apply to all; the different treatment is entirely because of my actions, as it was at the schools you mentioned because they wouldn't take black people. The fact that the people managing those schools were white was irrelevant: they broke the rules, and that's where the treatment comes in.

Quote:
Recall how this all began: should groups of white people gathering because they're white be treated exactly the same as groups of black people gathering because they're black. You seem to think that the answer has to be yes or some unnamed principle will be shattered.
The First Amendment doesn't mention race, only the freedom to assemble peacefully.

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If my principle is "equality under the law," history shows us that we need to treat these groups very differently.
That's just as discriminatory and divisive as racism.

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Thus, they can be treated very differently (different rules, allowed/not allowed...) on, say, college campuses, and the principle still holds.
Then I strongly disagree with this practice. The rules should be the same for all or they're not rules at all.
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Old 18th May 2017, 05:47 AM   #151
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Originally Posted by MostlyDead View Post
But why do (some) black Americans feel like they carry the Weight of the Ages with them? Anecdotally: playing baseball in high school, I (white) was first base, the shortstop was black. He did not, as far as I know, bear the cross of centuries of mistreatment any more than I wore a tri-cornered hat. We were both modern Americans. Still are.
Because the Weight of the Ages still beat down on them.

On NPR yesterday they interviewed an author who studied the laws that caused housing discrimination up to the 1980's. Housing projects, like Leavittown, only received financing if they made explicit in their request that no African Americans would be allowed in and the deeds all had clauses that prevented resale to black people. This occurred all across the United States.

The result of that and other laws and discrimination is that African Americans have about 5% of the wealth of white Americans, almost all attributable to being barred from owning houses. That affects people today, and it's true because of those centuries of mistreatment.

The lack of wealth makes it difficult to afford quality schooling, like college...

That's just one example.


Quote:
But again, a twenty-first century American, of any flavor, has no reason to focus their identity on the sufferings of abstract ancestors. Maybe the luxury of being white, but I don't identify with centuries-old ancestors, for better or worse, and it carries a 'we are not one of you' vibe to see a celebration where whites are specifically excluded, based only on the color of their skin.
Yes, you do have the luxury. You don't identify because there is no external force constraining your choices.

Those forces that created the black identity in the United States did not magically stop at any point.
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Old 18th May 2017, 05:54 AM   #152
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
You are deliberately missing the point: the same rules apply to all;
Yes, with you there.

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...the different treatment is entirely because of my actions, as it was at the schools you mentioned because they wouldn't take black people. The fact that the people managing those schools were white was irrelevant: they broke the rules, and that's where the treatment comes in.
Again, that is meaningless. The fact that rules were broken only to discriminate against black children means that the remedy has to deal with black children.

And if you take a program like Affirmative Action, no rule needs to be broken anywhere to recognize that there is bias in hiring or admission.



Quote:
The First Amendment doesn't mention race, only the freedom to assemble peacefully.
Harvard is a private University, and schools, in general, have the ability to control the groups the allow to use their facilities.

The KKK can have a private graduation ceremony off campus and it would be legal.


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That's just as discriminatory and divisive as racism.
This is nonsense. This is the "reverse discrimination" ******** logger was trying.

The response to racism, efforts to rectify past discrimination, are fundamentally different discrimination.

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Then I strongly disagree with this practice. The rules should be the same for all or they're not rules at all.
This is factually wrong and ethically absurd.
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Old 18th May 2017, 06:01 AM   #153
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Originally Posted by TraneWreck View Post
Again, that is meaningless. The fact that rules were broken only to discriminate against black children means that the remedy has to deal with black children.

And if you take a program like Affirmative Action, no rule needs to be broken anywhere to recognize that there is bias in hiring or admission.
Well, the bias IS against the rules, hence the action. So long as everybody plays by the same set of rules, no one can say they're treated differently, which is the sense we're using here. If you break the rules, then you get the treatment you worked for. I thought this was a foundation of classic liberalism but I guess that's so 18th century.

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This is nonsense. This is the "reverse discrimination" ******** logger was trying.
Oh, no. It's just plain old discrimination.

Quote:
The response to racism, efforts to rectify past discrimination, are fundamentally different discrimination.
No. The response to racism and discrmination is TO STOP racism and discrimination, not to engage in further despicable behaviour.

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This is factually wrong and ethically absurd.
Then I'm sorry but you don't believe in equality at all.
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Old 18th May 2017, 06:11 AM   #154
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TraneWreck, I have no beef with you, but I think our discussion shows that we operate from vastly different value systems on this issue, and I think it would be better served by exploring these axioms in its own thread.

What do you think?
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Old 18th May 2017, 06:18 AM   #155
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Is there a "white culture"? There are certain aspects of American culture that are almost exclusively white, but is that the same thing? Any time I hear people refer to it as "white culture" as opposed to "small town America" or "yuppie culture" (would any celebrate that?) I hear an emphasis on white superiority.
There is as much a white culture as there is a black culture. That is to say, both whites and blacks have numerous distinct cultures dependent on a variety of factors. Sometimes, as you point out, a whites-only event is code for a racist gathering. So can a blacks-only event be.

Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
As I noted before, there is nothing inherently wrong with the concept of having a "whites only" event, where somehow a common experience is being celebrated or acknowledged, but in practice every such even I've ever heard of has been one that encourages racial superiority or hatred.
I think both are ridiculous. Why celebrate "black music", for instance? If you want to celebrate Jazz, why not celebrate Jazz? If you want to celebrate rap (quite why you'd want to is another question), then do that, why bring ethnicity into it? Many music genres comprise an almost exclusively white ethnicity but never have I heard anybody refer to them as 'white music', the idea is absurd.
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Old 18th May 2017, 06:31 AM   #156
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Then I'm sorry but you don't believe in equality at all.

Equality of what? Equality of opportunity? Equality of outcome? Fiscal equality? Equality of public provisions? Equality of educational opportunity?


Pick one. Once you've done that, have a look at how unequal all the rest become once adjusted.

If you want fiscal equality or equality of outcome, you're probably a communist.

If you want equality of opportunity, you're probably a socialist

If you want all young people to have an equal chance to become the president then you're going to have to take a lot of rich people's money and give it to educators working with poor people.


What do you mean by 'Equality'?
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Old 18th May 2017, 06:39 AM   #157
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Equality of what? Equality of opportunity? Equality of outcome? Fiscal equality? Equality of public provisions? Equality of educational opportunity?


Pick one. Once you've done that, have a look at how unequal all the rest become once adjusted.

If you want fiscal equality or equality of outcome, you're probably a communist.

If you want equality of opportunity, you're probably a socialist

If you want all young people to have an equal chance to become the president then you're going to have to take a lot of rich people's money and give it to educators working with poor people.


What do you mean by 'Equality'?
I believe I was very clear when I said that the laws apply to everyone; that's the equality I'm talking about.
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Old 18th May 2017, 07:00 AM   #158
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
I believe I was very clear when I said that the laws apply to everyone; that's the equality I'm talking about.

Okay, so you're not looking for equality of outcome, just equality of legislation.

This means the poor are likely to stay poor, the rich are likely to stay rich and only the very remarkable or very lucky will be able to transition from poor to rich. It takes a lot of smarts to beat out a kid with a USD100,000 education when you've been to community college.

This also means that racially segregated groups - those deliberately segregated by use of racist legislation, stay segregated. They have the same, equal opportunity to stay where they are and be poor as a rich kid does to stay where he is and be rich.

I understand the frustration of those who lose out due to children from disadvantaged and racially disadvantaged communities being selected over and above children from nice, white homes, but unless you do that, then, given the lack of almost any social mobility in the USA*, you're just going to end up with a permanent underclass.











*well, except through sports, having whole swathes of the population rightly believing their only way out is to run really fast gets you a lot of Olympic medals. There's just such a large pool of people with no option but **** or bust on the track or field.
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Old 18th May 2017, 07:04 AM   #159
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
TraneWreck, I have no beef with you, but I think our discussion shows that we operate from vastly different value systems on this issue, and I think it would be better served by exploring these axioms in its own thread.

What do you think?
Works for me.

I agree. I enjoy discussing things. It's more fun when the disagreement occurs between people advocating for their position vs. someone just trolling for the lols.
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Old 18th May 2017, 07:04 AM   #160
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Okay, so you're not looking for equality of outcome, just equality of legislation.
Yeah. Equality of outcome is nonsense. None of us are actually equal in capacity, and of course rich people can send their kids to better schools and all. But what's one to do about it?

Quote:
This means the poor are likely to stay poor, the rich are likely to stay rich and only the very remarkable or very lucky will be able to transition from poor to rich.
Yes, it's very hard for poor people to become not poor. The solution, I think, is a more equal access to quality public education. It seems to me that public education is very unequal depending on your area.

Quote:
This also means that racially segregated groups - those deliberately segregated by use of racist legislation, stay segregated.
What kind of "racist legislation" are you refering to?

Quote:
I understand the frustration of those who lose out due to children from disadvantaged and racially disadvantaged communities being selected over and above children from nice, white homes, but unless you do that, then, given the lack of almost any social mobility in the USA*, you're just going to end up with a permanent underclass.
I'm sure there are other options than treating people from different groups with a different set of rules, right?
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