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Old 18th May 2017, 07:07 AM   #161
Meadmaker
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
There is as much a white culture as there is a black culture. That is to say, both whites and blacks have numerous distinct cultures dependent on a variety of factors. Sometimes, as you point out, a whites-only event is code for a racist gathering. So can a blacks-only event be.
Whites only events could be racist. Blacks-only events could be racist. Whites only events almost always are racist. Blacks only events frequently are not racist.



(A note on the words "racist" and "racism". These words are tossed around so frequently in modern America that they could lose their meaning. Any gathering, activity, thought, assertion or even the most insignificant uttering that touches on the subject of race, implicitly or explicitly, is deemed by some to be racist. I reject that use of the word. I apply it only to cases where one race is claimed to be innately superior to another race, or which asserts that different races should have different social privileges.)
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Old 18th May 2017, 07:09 AM   #162
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
I think both are ridiculous. Why celebrate "black music", for instance? If you want to celebrate Jazz, why not celebrate Jazz? If you want to celebrate rap (quite why you'd want to is another question), then do that, why bring ethnicity into it? Many music genres comprise an almost exclusively white ethnicity but never have I heard anybody refer to them as 'white music', the idea is absurd.
I mostly agree. The only part I will add is that part of the reason it's important to point out that jazz is a musical style created and developed largely by African Americans is to avoid erasing that history.

There's a reason my handle and avatar picture are what they are. I think the development of jazz is one of the more incredible moments in human history. A heavily oppressed group of people develop a unique branch of music that is not only popular, but as sophisticated and complex as the greatest accomplishments of the European masters.

Now, whether you want to call it "black music" or use some other more descriptive term, that doesn't matter, but the black experience is completely relevant to any discussion of jazz and jazz history.
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Old 18th May 2017, 07:13 AM   #163
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Yeah. Equality of outcome is nonsense. None of us are actually equal in capacity, and of course rich people can send their kids to better schools and all. But what's one to do about it?

Provide for all children, the same high quality of education that rich kids get. Yes, this might require a few, rich (coincidentally, mostly white) old men to maybe have to give up a yacht or an island or two, but it's possible. Look at Finland. Make paying for private education an unmitigated waste of money.



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Yes, it's very hard for poor people to become not poor. The solution, I think, is a more equal access to quality public education. It seems to me that public education is very unequal depending on your area.
See above.



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What kind of "racist legislation" are you refering to?
See TraneWreck's post, #151.


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I'm sure there are other options than treating people from different groups with a different set of rules, right?
is that a question or a statement?
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Old 18th May 2017, 07:16 AM   #164
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Provide for all children, the same high quality of education that rich kids get.
Alternatively, just pay for a decent public education for all. I believe we have something like this in Canada, though you still have private schools for those who want them. I have no problem with some people getting extra for their money, so long as the baseline is good.

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is that a question or a statement?
It's my suspicion, followed by a request to confirm or deny it. It's a questment.
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Old 18th May 2017, 07:20 AM   #165
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Well, the bias IS against the rules, hence the action. So long as everybody plays by the same set of rules, no one can say they're treated differently, which is the sense we're using here. If you break the rules, then you get the treatment you worked for. I thought this was a foundation of classic liberalism but I guess that's so 18th century.
So, take the example I used before of housing discrimination. This is a good one because it happened to lots of people who are still alive. This continued into the 80's in some parts of the country and the deeds denying resale of homes to black people are still on the books, though that term is unenforceable.

Here's the story:

After WWII, two main actions by the government created massive housing segregation in metropolitan areas, North and South. The first was the civilian public housing program. Often integrated neighborhoods were destroyed to build places like Cabrini Green.

The more insidious program was undertaken by the FHA (Federal Housing Administration). They devoted government funds to subsidize the development of suburbs on the express condition that those houses be sold only to white people. Levittown is the most famous example of this. The deeds to those houses contained the afore-mentioned clause that restricted resale to African American families.

Not only that, but troops returning from WWII received assistance with mortgage loans to purchase houses. A white soldier could receive a government backed loan to purchase a home in Levittown for $8,000 ($100,000 in today's money). That's incredibly affordable. Those same houses are now worth $250-$400,000. So, white families bought houses built with the assistance of government money, received loans backed by the government and in the course of two generations gained equity of up to $300,000 to pass on to subsequent generations.

Black families got jack ****.

So, those laws were removed from the books in the 70's and 80's. Are you arguing that once those discriminatory laws were removed, all is good? Because you still have the situation where white people made a ton of money and black families were legally barred from participating in that wealth building.

Right now, currently, black families have 5% of the wealth, on average, as white families, almost exclusively due to home ownership differences.

My point is that you cannot just remove the discriminatory law and say, "it's all equal now." You have to deal with the ramifications of those discriminatory practices. Recall that most places fund the schools through property taxes, creating an endless death spiral: can't buy houses, live in areas with low value, low value leads to poorer schools, poorer schools make it difficult to work out of the low value area....etc.

Black families and white families have to be treated differently to fulfill the promise of equality. Simply removing current legal barriers leaves massive inequities in place. THAT is what compromises commitment to equal opportunity and equality under the law, not the recognition of a dramatically unfair playing field.

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Old 18th May 2017, 07:23 AM   #166
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Originally Posted by TraneWreck View Post
Black families and white families have to be treated differently to fulfill the promise of equality.
How about instead we help poor people, not black people?. That way the poor whites get helped too, and the rich blacks don't. You help people based on their financial situation (up to a degree; essentially giving them better means to improve their own lot) and not on skin colour (and how black do you have to be anyway?)
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Old 18th May 2017, 07:26 AM   #167
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Alternatively, just pay for a decent public education for all.
This would definitely, as we see today, leave the children of rich men and women, those can afford the best private schools, progressing to the most important positions in the country. I, for one, am not overly enamored with the idea that a vastly disproportionate number of the most influential in society come from a relatively small selection of schools and universities. From government to the press, to the captains of industry I believe it is the case. This will continue as long as the best education is only available to those with a wedge of cash.



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I believe we have something like this in Canada, though you still have private schools for those who want them. I have no problem with some people getting extra for their money, so long as the baseline is good.
Jesus, I do.



Quote:
It's my suspicion, followed by a request to confirm or deny it. It's a questment.



I think we're on a derail. And I've started ranting. I'm going to back up a bit.
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Old 18th May 2017, 07:27 AM   #168
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
How about instead we help poor people, not black people?. That way the poor whites get helped too, and the rich blacks don't. You help people based on their financial situation (up to a degree; essentially giving them better means to improve their own lot) and not on skin colour (and how black do you have to be anyway?)
That's fine. I'm all for helping poor families, but there is a specific problem with the way black people were treated that has massive current ramifications. Our metropolitan areas are still incredibly segregated because of those historical practices.

Just helping the poor, while good, does not solve the specific issues of inequity based on race. That legacy has to be dealt with for equality under the law to be anything more than a hollow slogan.
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Old 18th May 2017, 07:28 AM   #169
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
This would definitely, as we see today, leave the children of rich men and women, those can afford the best private schools, progressing to the most important positions in the country.
So what's your solution? Ban private schools and homeschooling?

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Jesus, I do.
May I ask why? Would you be comfortable with everyone earning the same wage?
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Old 18th May 2017, 07:30 AM   #170
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Originally Posted by TraneWreck View Post
That's fine. I'm all for helping poor families, but there is a specific problem with the way black people were treated that has massive current ramifications. Our metropolitan areas are still incredibly segregated because of those historical practices.

Just helping the poor, while good, does not solve the specific issues of inequity based on race.
I think it does, because the overlap means that the very same black people get the same help, but that it also happens to help people who specifically need the help, irrespective of colour.
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Old 18th May 2017, 07:34 AM   #171
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
I think it does, because the overlap means that the very same black people get the same help, but that it also happens to help people who specifically need the help, irrespective of colour.
Yes, I don't disagree. Programs aimed at wealth inequity will go a long way towards helping mitigate the damage I mentioned. I'm not opposing broader efforts based purely on poverty.

But there will be additional problems caused by the past discrimination that specifically targeted black people and families. Holding income constant, for example, still shows large education disparities along racial lines. Poor whites do better than poor African Americans.
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Old 18th May 2017, 07:35 AM   #172
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Originally Posted by TraneWreck View Post
Yes, I don't disagree. Programs aimed at wealth inequity will go a long way towards helping mitigate the damage I mentioned. I'm not opposing broader efforts based purely on poverty.

But there will be additional problems caused by the past discrimination that specifically targeted black people and families. Holding income constant, for example, still shows large education disparities along racial lines. Poor whites do better than poor African Americans.
Yes, that's where my earlier comment about education comes in.
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Old 18th May 2017, 07:40 AM   #173
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
So what's your solution? Ban private schools and homeschooling?
No, as I said above, make the quality of public education so high that it is simply a waste of money to invest in a private education. Make sure all your educators have doctorates.



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May I ask why? Would you be comfortable with everyone earning the same wage?

No. Not everyone has the same ability. But what should count is ability, not the size of one's father's investment portfolio.


Okay, I'm definitely done now the thread is thoroughly derailed.
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Old 18th May 2017, 09:11 AM   #174
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Separating folks by race doesn't seem likely to lead to a healthy and well-integrated multicultural society.

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Old 18th May 2017, 09:14 AM   #175
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Separating folks by race doesn't seem likely to lead to a healthy and well-integrated multicultural society.
When did the separation happen, though?

If you think that this gathering of black college students to which everyone is invited was the point of segregation, I would suggest you're ignoring some pretty significant things that occurred before.
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Old 18th May 2017, 09:19 AM   #176
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having attended several graduation ceremonies at very diverse schools,I think it is absolutely terrific that black families have their own ceremony as well, where they can get their celebratory hooting and hollering done at full decibel and not be hampered by repeated pleas and reminders from staff and the teachers not to hoot and holler when their relative's names are mentioned.
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Old 18th May 2017, 09:19 AM   #177
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Originally Posted by Crossbow View Post
As my grandfather used to say:

"A man can only make a fool of himself"
He knew the people around him best I suppose.
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Old 18th May 2017, 09:23 AM   #178
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
As I noted earlier, it's a deeper examination that you are interested in. Feel free to stay superficial. It's not as much work.
?
Not really sure why you're saying that.
I suppose it's easier for you to run.
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Old 18th May 2017, 09:26 AM   #179
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Originally Posted by TraneWreck View Post
When did the separation happen, though?
In 2017, if you can believe it.


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Old 18th May 2017, 09:27 AM   #180
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
In 2017, if you can believe it.
This is when we saw an instance of a community reacting to a tradition of separation.
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Old 18th May 2017, 09:31 AM   #181
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
having attended several graduation ceremonies at very diverse schools,I think it is absolutely terrific that black families have their own ceremony as well, where they can get their celebratory hooting and hollering done at full decibel and not be hampered by repeated pleas and reminders from staff and the teachers not to hoot and holler when their relative's names are mentioned.
And a chicken dinner. Don't forget that. Nothing draws the darkies like free chicken.
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Old 18th May 2017, 09:36 AM   #182
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Originally Posted by marplots View Post
And a chicken dinner. Don't forget that. Nothing draws the darkies like free chicken.
Oh dear....
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Old 18th May 2017, 09:41 AM   #183
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
having attended several graduation ceremonies at very diverse schools,I think it is absolutely terrific that black families have their own ceremony as well, where they can get their celebratory hooting and hollering done at full decibel and not be hampered by repeated pleas and reminders from staff and the teachers not to hoot and holler when their relative's names are mentioned.
Originally Posted by marplots View Post
And a chicken dinner. Don't forget that. Nothing draws the darkies like free chicken.
Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Oh dear....
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Old 18th May 2017, 09:41 AM   #184
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Originally Posted by marplots View Post
And a chicken dinner. Don't forget that. Nothing draws the darkies like free chicken.
I like chicken.
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Old 18th May 2017, 09:43 AM   #185
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Originally Posted by logger View Post
He knew the people around him best I suppose.
Congratulations 'logger'!

This is definitely the best post that I have ever seen you write.
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Old 18th May 2017, 09:51 AM   #186
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Originally Posted by TraneWreck View Post
This is when we saw an instance of a community reacting to a tradition of separation.
By voluntarily setting themselves apart, based on skin color. What could possibly go wrong?

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Old 18th May 2017, 09:52 AM   #187
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
By voluntarily setting themselves apart, based on skin color. What could possibly go wrong?
By voluntarily gathering to celebrate their shared accomplishment in the face of the forces that set them apart, a lot of good will happen.
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Old 18th May 2017, 09:53 AM   #188
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Originally Posted by TraneWreck View Post
By voluntarily gathering to celebrate their shared accomplishment in the face of the forces that set them apart, a lot of good will happen.
Murphy was also an optimist.

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Old 18th May 2017, 09:54 AM   #189
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Murphy was also an optimist.
I don't get that reference.
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Old 18th May 2017, 09:55 AM   #190
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Perhaps posts more than one snippet long would help the discussion?
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Old 18th May 2017, 09:59 AM   #191
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Are there any examples of voluntary racial segregation working out well?

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Old 18th May 2017, 10:00 AM   #192
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Probably not residential neighborhoods: http://www.npr.org/sections/health-s...blood-pressure

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Old 18th May 2017, 10:01 AM   #193
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Are there any examples of voluntary racial segregation working out well?
Irrelevant due to the fact that (1) everyone was invited and (2) nothing about segregation in America was voluntary from the perspective of minority groups.

So, no, nothing good has come from voluntary racial segregation, which is why it was good to outlaw it. Groups with the shared experience of having been segregated against their will unifying and seeking solidarity to overcome that negative experience is not voluntary segregation. It's necessary action taken as the result of their involuntary segregation.
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Old 18th May 2017, 10:06 AM   #194
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You honestly think the typical Harvard graduate experienced involuntary segregation in their youth?

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Old 18th May 2017, 10:54 AM   #195
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Originally Posted by logger View Post
?
Not really sure why you're saying that.
I suppose it's easier for you to run.
Because none of your thoughts seem to take more than a sentence to express. They are very superficial. They don't demonstrate any significant understanding of the issues involved. It's very black and white thinking, no pun intended.
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Old 18th May 2017, 10:57 AM   #196
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Because none of your thoughts seem to take more than a sentence to express. They are very superficial. They don't demonstrate any significant understanding of the issues involved. It's very black and white thinking, no pun intended.
And I too have been trying to explain to him the importance of writing a coherent post.
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Old 18th May 2017, 11:28 AM   #197
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
You honestly think the typical Harvard graduate experienced involuntary segregation in their youth?
Yes, of course. Not as violent and obvious as legal segregation in the South, but take the example of housing discrimination I gave in detail previously in this post: for a good number of those students the place they grew up was determined by intentional laws separating them from the white community.

Also, the entire concept of "black" or "African American" is the result of intentional oppressive policies of white people. The very notion of that racial group was imposed upon them. Black pride and black solidarity is the result of seeking justice in reaction to those policies.

Let me ask you this: do you believe the Civil Rights Movement was an example of self-segregation? Just take the Selma to Montgomery marches - white people welcome, as with this graduation celebration, main organizers and participants were black.
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Old 18th May 2017, 11:36 AM   #198
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The average graduate student is in their mid-30s. Which "intentional laws" were still separating them from the white community when they were growing up, two decades after the Fair Housing Act?

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Old 18th May 2017, 11:42 AM   #199
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
The average graduate student is in their mid-30s. Which "intentional laws" were still separating them from the white community when they were growing up, decades after the Fair Housing Act?
Here is the post I mentioned:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...&postcount=165

Now, if you'll read my prior post carefully, you'll note that I did not say those students were denied the ability to purchase homes. I said the following:

Quote:
...for a good number of those students the place they grew up was determined by intentional laws separating them from the white community.
That is simply a point of fact. The Fair Housing Act stopped further discrimination, but it did not rectify or undo the previous harm. Our metropolitan areas are deeply segregated to this day, and the biggest reasons were those I mentioned: public housing programs and the intentional restriction of black people moving to suburbs.

Again, the average black family has 5% the wealth of the Average white family, almost entirely due to a disparity in home ownership. It wasn't as though African Americans had a bunch of money ready to go purchase homes in integrated neighborhoods the day the Fair Housing Act was signed into law.

I'm not certain why you are so reluctant to recognize history.

I am also not certain why you think a person can dictate where they were born.

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Old 18th May 2017, 11:42 AM   #200
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Originally Posted by TraneWreck View Post
Let me ask you this: do you believe the Civil Rights Movement was an example of self-segregation?
Whereas a school graduation ceremony is a ceremonial exercise intended to bring the entire community together, a civil rights movement springs from the fact of exclusivity. You are literally comparing modern Harvard to the Jim Crow era.



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