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Old 18th May 2017, 11:47 AM   #201
TraneWreck
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Whereas a school graduation ceremony is a ceremonial exercise intended to bring the entire community together, a civil rights movement springs from the fact of exclusivity. You are literally comparing modern Harvard to the Jim Crow era.
Haha, no.

1) Graduation ceremonies are not intended to bring the entire community together. They are intended for friends and family of graduates to celebrate the graduation. Strangely, I do not receive invitations to all graduation ceremonies occurring in my community.

2) You evaded the question. I'm not asking you WHY the Civil Rights Movement happened, I'm asking you if you think it was voluntary segregation according to your use of that concept. We can discuss the reasons why and how they compare to the graduation ceremony when you answer the direct question.

3) You're too smart to play the idiot's understanding of analogy game. Analogies are not meant to be alike in every way. Feel free to argue that the analogy fails on the relevant point, but feigned vapidity should be beneath the discussion.

"Charlie Chaplin's mustache looked like Hitler's."
"You're saying Charlie Chaplin murder 6 million people?"
"Yes, that's what I'm saying."

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Old 18th May 2017, 11:51 AM   #202
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Whereas a school graduation ceremony is a ceremonial exercise intended to bring the entire community together, a civil rights movement springs from the fact of exclusivity. You are literally comparing modern Harvard to the Jim Crow era.



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Did you read the article?

It was not a replacement for the graduation ceremony. It was in addition to. And it was open to anyone.

It's a pretty commonplace thing for sub-groups at a school to hold a ceremony for their graduates.
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Old 18th May 2017, 11:53 AM   #203
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1) The relevant community here is composed of Harvard graduates and their social support networks.

2) I never said the CRM was an example of voluntary segregation. The relevant communities were already involuntarily segregated at the time.

3) Analogies need to be analogous on key points relevant to the intuitions you are trying to pump.

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Old 18th May 2017, 11:54 AM   #204
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Originally Posted by Spindrift View Post
It's a pretty commonplace thing for sub-groups at a school to hold a ceremony for their graduates.
Is it? I've only seen a small handful of examples so far.

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Old 18th May 2017, 12:03 PM   #205
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
1) The relevant community here is composed of Harvard graduates and their social support networks.
Yes, and? They have parents. Possibly their parents and certainly their grandparents were subject to housing discrimination written into the law. They have all been subject to informal discrimination as well as ongoing banking scandals, like the one currently taking place with Wells Fargo:

Quote:
Wells Fargo & Co agreed to pay $175 million to resolve allegations it charged African-Americans and Hispanics higher rates and fees on mortgages even when they qualified for better deals during the housing boom, the U.S. Justice Department said on Thursday.
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-we...86B0V220120712

So, I'm not sure what point you think you're making. Those Harvard graduates grew up where they grew up for a reason. Housing discrimination was almost certainly relevant to majority of them.

Quote:
2) I never said the CRM was an example of voluntary segregation. The relevant communities were already involuntarily segregated at the time.
I didn't say you did. I asked you if you thought it was.

But I'm curious, please tell me the point between 1965 and now that metropolitan areas were ACTUALLY desegregated. Not when the law was passed.

We know, for example, that African Americans were legally allowed to vote beginning in 1870, and yet they were unable to do so well into the 1960's. Just pointing to the Fair Housing Act does not explain when de facto segregation in our cities ended, if you think it did.

And, of course, because schools are often funded with property taxes, generations of black people being denied access to areas with wealth creates a vicious circle that continues to the present.

Quote:
3) Analogies need to be analogous on key points relevant to the intuitions you are trying to pump.
Correct. Which is why one wonders how you could react with such astonishment when a comparison was made.
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Old 18th May 2017, 12:09 PM   #206
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Originally Posted by TraneWreck View Post
Yes, and? They have parents. Possibly their parents and certainly their grandparents were subject to housing discrimination written into the law.
Silly question: how far are we supposed to look back?

If my ancestors in France were persecuted by some other group 200 years ago, surely my current situation is partly a consequence of that, and is worse than it could have been under some hypothetical. Should I seek reparations? (not being sarcastic or anything.)
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Old 18th May 2017, 12:30 PM   #207
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Silly question: how far are we supposed to look back?

If my ancestors in France were persecuted by some other group 200 years ago, surely my current situation is partly a consequence of that, and is worse than it could have been under some hypothetical. Should I seek reparations? (not being sarcastic or anything.)
Are Belgians even allowed at Harvard?
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Old 18th May 2017, 12:46 PM   #208
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Silly question: how far are we supposed to look back?

If my ancestors in France were persecuted by some other group 200 years ago, surely my current situation is partly a consequence of that, and is worse than it could have been under some hypothetical. Should I seek reparations? (not being sarcastic or anything.)
I don't know. It will be different in different situations. Also depends on the reason you're looking back and why.

I'm not, you'll notice, making an argument for reparations, I'm mostly explaining why a certain phenomenon exists. If you wanted an explanation of you got to where you were, what happened to your ancestors in France would surely be relevant.

Likewise, if you want to know why there is group solidarity in the black community, why grouping based on black pride is different than grouping based on white pride, why cities are segregated...you have to look at history. Any attempt at an explanation without studying those very recent events leads to nonsense.

If you want an explanation for why black people may want to have an extra celebration for college graduation, history will be important as will current demographics.
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Old 18th May 2017, 12:55 PM   #209
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Originally Posted by TraneWreck View Post
Those Harvard graduates grew up where they grew up for a reason. Housing discrimination was almost certainly relevant to majority of them.
I haven't seen any data on where they grew up. Have you? Given the selectivity of the Ivy League, there is a good chance that they didn't grow up in demographically average places.

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Old 18th May 2017, 01:04 PM   #210
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Originally Posted by marplots View Post
Are Belgians even allowed at Harvard?
Only in the Department of Belgian studies. Their major area of research is trying to address the cultural appropriation of Flamenco dancing by the Spanish.
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Old 18th May 2017, 01:08 PM   #211
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Originally Posted by Crossbow View Post
Congratulations 'logger'!

This is definitely the best post that I have ever seen you write.
Thanks, were you the closets to him? Grandfathers have all sorts of wisdom.
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Old 18th May 2017, 01:13 PM   #212
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Because none of your thoughts seem to take more than a sentence to express. They are very superficial. They don't demonstrate any significant understanding of the issues involved. It's very black and white thinking, no pun intended.
is there something wrong with keeping the questions and answers simple? I appreciated your long explanation, not sure why you can't get past a simple question or comment?
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Old 18th May 2017, 01:30 PM   #213
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Originally Posted by logger View Post
is there something wrong with keeping the questions and answers simple? I appreciated your long explanation, not sure why you can't get past a simple question or comment?
Wrong? No. Superficial? Yes.

Your simple, straightforward comments are not necessarily wrong, but they don't do much to explain your position.
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Old 18th May 2017, 01:34 PM   #214
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Wrong? No. Superficial? Yes.

Your simple, straightforward comments are not necessarily wrong, but they don't do much to explain your position.
We're not discussing the tax code, we're discussing whether or not races segregating themselves is wrong or right. I think it's wrong because it leads to more division. That is obvious.

You need the long explanation because you're defending the indefensible.

You said you thought Harvard was correct in not backing it, after you gave a good presentation for supporting it. Why do you think they shouldn't back it?

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Old 18th May 2017, 01:45 PM   #215
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Originally Posted by TraneWreck View Post
I don't know. It will be different in different situations. Also depends on the reason you're looking back and why.
Well if you ask me, I shouldn't. I'm my own person, and what a dead person did to another dead person is no concern of mine. The Muslims could've killed some of my ancestors at Tours and maybe this caused my family to not become rich bourgeois after the black death came, but so what?
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Old 18th May 2017, 01:47 PM   #216
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Originally Posted by logger View Post
That is obvious.
That's a rather superficial assessment of a complicated topic.

You seem to think you can demand explanations, and if those explanations are not forthcoming or satisfactory, you can declare the other position incorrect. Very well. I certainly can't stop you. We'll put you down in the "against" column.

And I won't even demand that you explain yourself more fully. As I said a few posts ago, you don't seem to want a deep exploration of the issue. I won't burden you with one.

If you change your mind, and decide to explain your own position, or critique mine or others with something a bit more thoughtful, we could proceed, but if that wouldn't interest you, there's not much point.
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Old 18th May 2017, 02:00 PM   #217
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
That's a rather superficial assessment of a complicated topic.

You seem to think you can demand explanations, and if those explanations are not forthcoming or satisfactory, you can declare the other position incorrect. Very well. I certainly can't stop you. We'll put you down in the "against" column.

And I won't even demand that you explain yourself more fully. As I said a few posts ago, you don't seem to want a deep exploration of the issue. I won't burden you with one.

If you change your mind, and decide to explain your own position, or critique mine or others with something a bit more thoughtful, we could proceed, but if that wouldn't interest you, there's not much point.
Lordy!
It's not complicated to me. But by all means, have it your way.
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Old 19th May 2017, 12:31 AM   #218
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Is it? I've only seen a small handful of examples so far.

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I'm sorry, did you mistype "Yes, you're right."
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Old 19th May 2017, 06:12 AM   #219
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
[hilite]Why would you get that uncomfortable feeling of divisiveness?
I get that feeling because a celebration which admits the participants on purely racial lines is racially divisive. I find this uncomfortable because I find it hard to believe that deliberately dividing people along racial lines, however well intentioned, is beneficial overall.

Quote:
When you can show us the hurdles due to their mere whiteness that white people have to overcome to graduate high school, get into a good college and then graduate, I might get some sympathy for the poor downtrodden white man.
I don't believe anyone is lamenting the plight of the 'poor downtrodden white man'. I hope it's just a difference in approach: I want to see a genuinely leveled playing field, no more blacks here and whites there, for any reason. A 'blacks only' graduation smacks of a 'separate but equal' assumption.
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Old 19th May 2017, 06:31 AM   #220
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Originally Posted by TraneWreck View Post
Because the Weight of the Ages still beat down on them.

On NPR yesterday they interviewed an author who studied the laws that caused housing discrimination up to the 1980's. Housing projects, like Leavittown, only received financing if they made explicit in their request that no African Americans would be allowed in and the deeds all had clauses that prevented resale to black people. This occurred all across the United States.
According to Wikipedia, The Levitts on their own decided to sell to only whites, and the Supreme Court struck down the cracker-only covenant as unenforceable in 1948. Interestingly, they were Jewish but didn't sell to Jews either.

Originally Posted by Wikipedia
William Levitt attempted to justify their decision to only sell homes to white families by saying that it was in the best interest for business.[11] He claimed their actions were not discriminatory but intended to maintain the value of their properties. The company explained that it was not possible to reduce racial segregation while they were attempting to reduce the housing shortage.
Originally Posted by TraneWreck
Yes, you do have the luxury. You don't identify because there is no external force constraining your choices.

Those forces that created the black identity in the United States did not magically stop at any point.
Sorry, what?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Levittown,_New_York

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Old 19th May 2017, 06:47 AM   #221
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Originally Posted by MostlyDead View Post
I'm not sure what you're asking. The concept of "black" or "African American" was created by white Americans first through the slave trade then through policies like segregation (de jure and de facto).

It was not as though a bunch of Africans got together and said, "Hey, let's all head over this place called America. To do it right, let's break ties with our relatives so that by the second generation our kids will have no idea where they came from save for a very general assumption." You think black people came up with the One-Drop Rule, Grandfather clauses, terms like "octaroon?" No, their identity, in a general sense, was imposed upon them: you are this, therefore we will treat you this way.

That African American culture has been so incredibly vibrant and valuable is a testament to endurance and perseverance. But people on this thread are acting like it's some mystery as to why black Americans identify as such and unify within that group. Because they were made to. There was never any choice. They've made the best of a horrible humanitarian disaster.

Edited to add:
Originally Posted by MostlyDead View Post
According to Wikipedia, The Levitts on their own decided to sell to only whites, and the Supreme Court struck down the cracker-only covenant as unenforceable in 1948. Interestingly, they were Jewish but didn't sell to Jews either.
That is why I mentioned the private deeds. The FHA extended loans for development under the condition that each private deed contained a restriction barring the resale of the homes to African Americans. From wiki:

Quote:
Although the covenants, too, were made illegal in 1948, they were still allowed to be present in private deeds.[4] It was not until the Civil Rights Act of 1968, otherwise known as the Fair Housing Act, that the federal government made its first concrete steps to deem all types of housing discrimination unconstitutional.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Housin...(United_States)

This is the book that recently came out dealing with the subject:
https://www.amazon.com/Color-Law-For.../dp/1631492853

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Old 19th May 2017, 06:50 AM   #222
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Well if you ask me, I shouldn't. I'm my own person, and what a dead person did to another dead person is no concern of mine. The Muslims could've killed some of my ancestors at Tours and maybe this caused my family to not become rich bourgeois after the black death came, but so what?
Right, but this is just a situation that doesn't compare.

With housing discrimination, specifically, the same government that passed those laws is still in existence and huge numbers of the people who were discriminated against are still alive.

If your grandparents couldn't buy a house and were forced to live in ghettos, that constrained the life choices of your parents. Your parents' constrained life choices affect the position where you start.

This, again, is a simple point of fact. And, amusingly, we're talking about a group of people - Harvard graduates - who did, in fact, overcome all of that to become very successful. So, I'm not sure what your point is. They aren't asking for anything, they're celebrating shared accomplishment which, given the million of forces that have acted to limit the success of black Americans over the years, is damned impressive.
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Old 19th May 2017, 07:05 AM   #223
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Question for those of you who attended university.

Graduation ceremonies are generally optional, right?


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Old 19th May 2017, 07:08 AM   #224
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Question for those of you who attended university.

Graduation ceremonies are generally optional, right?
No. They told us we would be shot in the dick if we didn't attend.

Seems like you could probably just make a point instead of asking silly questions.
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Old 19th May 2017, 07:40 AM   #225
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I never attended university, so it's an honest question.

Maybe be a bit less of a tool about it.


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Old 19th May 2017, 07:46 AM   #226
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
I never attended university, so it's an honest question.

Maybe be a bit less of a tool about it.
Nah, my tool ratio was spot on.

But fair enough: depends on the school, depends on if the student cares.

There's not a whole heck of a lot they can do if you don't attend, but a lot of places heavily suggest it. They can add a bunch of steps to get a hold on the diploma released - write a letter to the president...

State Universities probably have way too many graduates to care. Smaller private universities, they may put more pressure on.
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Old 19th May 2017, 08:11 AM   #227
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Originally Posted by TraneWreck View Post
I'm not sure what you're asking. The concept of "black" or "African American" was created by white Americans first through the slave trade then through policies like segregation (de jure and de facto).
Your claim of individual/collective identity relies on the assumption that these acts by whites are the basis for black identity. I'm not sure that is even generally true. For instance, I am maternally a second generation American, but no part of my identity is connected to European roots. It seems perhaps a bit unfair to assert that the forming of cultural identity is as homogeneous as your claim implies. I'm thinking again of black families I grew up with: similar lifestyles, opportunities, and outlooks as mine. Never did they charge me with ancestral atrocities, although I have been since (by strangers).

Quote:
It was not as though a bunch of Africans got together and said, "Hey, let's all head over this place called America. To do it right, let's break ties with our relatives so that by the second generation our kids will have no idea where they came from save for a very general assumption." You think black people came up with the One-Drop Rule, Grandfather clauses, terms like "octaroon?" No, their identity, in a general sense, was imposed upon them: you are this, therefore we will treat you this way.

That African American culture has been so incredibly vibrant and valuable is a testament to endurance and perseverance. But people on this thread are acting like it's some mystery as to why black Americans identify as such and unify within that group. Because they were made to. There was never any choice. They've made the best of a horrible humanitarian disaster.
This again is what I am questioning. The black shortstop on my baseball team was not made to do anything you assert. AFAIK, he did/does not identify with your criteria, much as I do not identify with the French or Germans, despite having much closer ties.

Quote:
Edited to add:


That is why I mentioned the private deeds. The FHA extended loans for development under the condition that each private deed contained a restriction barring the resale of the homes to African Americans. From wiki:
The hilited is the condition I am questioning. Wiki says that the FHA allowed deed transfer, not demanded it as a condition. Big difference.

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Thanks for the book link, think I'll check it out.
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Old 19th May 2017, 08:25 AM   #228
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TraneWreck, put simply: do you not see how a graduation ceremony where whites are basically told 'hit the pike, this is not for people of your color', might be viewed as divisive? Keeping in mind that said whitey would never hold or attend any kind of ceremony that was white only?
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Old 19th May 2017, 08:28 AM   #229
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Originally Posted by MostlyDead View Post
Your claim of individual/collective identity relies on the assumption that these acts by whites are the basis for black identity. I'm not sure that is even generally true.
It is only generally true. The entire concept of "black" is a fiction hoisted upon people who were brought to this country against their will from Africa.

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For instance, I am maternally a second generation American, but no part of my identity is connected to European roots.
That's because there aren't external forces defining "white" in the same way that external forces defined "black." "Irish," for example, was a very limiting designation for several generations in the late 19th, early 20th centuries. Then they were absorbed into the general "white" category, leaving people free to associate with Irish as they saw fit. By the latter half of the 20th century, there was no widespread Irish discrimination.

Quote:
It seems perhaps a bit unfair to assert that the forming of cultural identity is as homogeneous as your claim implies.
That's not what I said. The cultural identity "black" is an incredibly rich category. But the development of that category occurred within a designation that was forced upon a specific group of people. Unlike "Irish," black people are not allowed to choose to associate with "blackness" or not. They are defined as black and treated as black. The ill treatment has slowly reduced over time, but the legacy of horrible oppression is still very much alive.

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I'm thinking again of black families I grew up with: similar lifestyles, opportunities, and outlooks as mine. Never did they charge me with ancestral atrocities, although I have been since (by strangers).
Prove that. There are statistics and studies on this. For example, simply applying for a job with an identifiable African American name significantly reduces employment prospects:

http://www.nber.org/papers/w9873.pdf

You may believe that they had same opportunities, but that simply isn't true of the nation as a whole and can be substantiated with a wide range of studies.


Quote:
This again is what I am questioning. The black shortstop on my baseball team was not made to do anything you assert. AFAIK, he did/does not identify with your criteria, much as I do not identify with the French or Germans, despite having much closer ties.
Obviously I cannot comment on some individual you knew.

Notice, though, that the freedom to associate or disassociate with the consequences of being "black" is changing for the better, albeit slowly. I would highly recommend calling up this friend of yours and asking about his experiences. You may be surprised at the degree to which he receives regular reminders of the category that is imposed on him.

Quote:
The hilited is the condition I am questioning. Wiki says that the FHA allowed deed transfer, not demanded it as a condition. Big difference.
I'm talking about the FHA devoting funds and loans towards land development. They often conditioned approval of development deals on the race of the participants:

Quote:
The great American novelist Wallace Stegner got a job right after World War II at Stanford University. There was an enormous civilian housing shortage. He joined and helped to lead a co-operative of 400 families who bought a large tract outside Stanford University where they wanted to build single-family homes.

The FHA refused to insure those homes refused to provide the capital for construction because the 400-member co-operative had three African-American members. The co-operative tried to resist the FHA's demand, promising the FHA that the number of African-Americans in the co-operative wouldn't exceed the percentage of African-Americans in California as a whole.

The FHA refused that compromise. Finally, the co-operative had to disband because they couldn't go ahead with the project. They sold the land to a private developer, who with FHA guarantees built single family homes with racially exclusive deeds.
http://www.npr.org/2017/05/17/528822...ed-segregation

Another source for the same story:

Quote:
Following World War II, Stanford University recruited the renowned novelist Wallace Stegner to teach. Unable to find housing, he helped organize a 400-family cooperative to purchase a large tract adjoining the campus. The co-op hired architects and builders, but construction had barely begun when it found that FHA guarantees would be denied because three African-American families were members. Faced with expelling these members or disbanding the co-op, Stegner and other leaders chose the latter. The tract was then resold to a private developer who constructed homes with FHA-guaranteed mortgages and deeds prohibiting sales to African Americans. Hallis Friend & Nancy Lund, Ladera Lore (Maureen Hamner, Grubb & Ellis Real Estate 1989) (1974).
http://www.americanbar.org/publicati...gregation.html

Because the FHA could not impose restrictive covenants after 1948, they dangled funding in front of developers to help them "choose" to draw private contracts with restrictions on resale to black people and they flat out denied funding to integrated groups.

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Old 19th May 2017, 08:31 AM   #230
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Originally Posted by MostlyDead View Post
TraneWreck, put simply: do you not see how a graduation ceremony where whites are basically told 'hit the pike, this is not for people of your color', might be viewed as divisive? Keeping in mind that said whitey would never hold or attend any kind of ceremony that was white only?
Well, since that isn't what happened, no. You have made up a situation that justifies your outrage. There was no exclusion.

But I do recognize the right of all people to invite who they like to a private ceremony.

I also recognize a dramatic historical difference between a grouping of black people based on "black pride," or whatever you want to call it, and a group of white people gathering based on "white pride."

So, no, I don't really take anything meaningful from what you've claimed, both because it's factually incorrect and historically...lacking.

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Old 19th May 2017, 08:34 AM   #231
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Question for those of you who attended university.

Graduation ceremonies are generally optional, right?


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Yes.

High school graduations are as well, although administrators try to convince the kids otherwise. The subject has come up for me in the context of different threads, and some people insist that either their high school or college graduation ceremonies were mandatory but, in reality, there were zero consequences for non-attendance.
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Old 19th May 2017, 08:37 AM   #232
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Is this segregation acceptable

Okay, so given that these school-wide events are generally optional, what is to prevent them from balkanizing into loads of "separate but equal" events for each reasonably distinct and well-represented identity group?

Why attend two commencements when you can just attend the one which feels more like a safe space?

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Old 19th May 2017, 08:39 AM   #233
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Okay, so given that these school-wide events are generally optional, what is to prevent them from balkanizing into loads of "separate but equal" events for each reasonably distinct and well-represented identity group?
You need to lock into the facts of this case:

There was a general graduation ceremony.

In addition to the general graduation ceremony, a group of black students held a private gathering to celebrate together.

There is nothing to prevent infinite graduation parties in addition to the general ceremony. There are probably more than 100 such ceremonies at Harvard every year that only contain white people.

It is baffling as to why anyone gives a **** about this. Start a petition to outlaw Muffy and Buffy from having a party where daddy presents them with a new convertible.

And if people don't want to go the general ceremony, again, who gives a ******

This is one of the more extreme, absurd version of concern trolling I've seen. It's hard to find a combination of such glib hand-wringing with an event so lacking in general importance.

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Old 19th May 2017, 08:47 AM   #234
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Is this segregation acceptable

The separate event has not happened yet, but I am looking forward to locking into the facts once we get them.

Also, you didn't actually answer my question. Calling someone a troll is a useful deflection tactic (classic circumstantial ad hominem) but you really shouldn't expect it to work among skeptics.

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Old 19th May 2017, 08:58 AM   #235
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Originally Posted by TraneWreck View Post
Well, since that isn't what happened, no. You have made up a situation that justifies your outrage. There was no exclusion.
Hang on- not true on a couple counts. We are not discussing the audience, and you know it. The graduates being honored were specifically black only. Also, I am not outraged. What's to be outraged about? I think it is unnecessarily divisive, and perpetuates a line drawn that I would prefer to see softened.

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So, no, I don't really take anything meaningful from what you've claimed, both because it's factually incorrect and historically...lacking.
The facts and applicable history (in context) are perfectly accurate. The question was: Can you see why a white guy who is not racist would view this as divisive? Not outrageous, and without pretending we are talking about the audience members.
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Old 19th May 2017, 08:58 AM   #236
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Originally Posted by TraneWreck View Post
This is one of the more extreme, absurd version of concern trolling I've seen. It's hard to find a combination of such glib hand-wringing with an event so lacking in general importance.
What is "concern trolling?"
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Old 19th May 2017, 09:09 AM   #237
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Okay, so given that these school-wide events are generally optional, what is to prevent them from balkanizing into loads of "separate but equal" events for each reasonably distinct and well-represented identity group?

Why attend two commencements when you can just attend the one which feels more like a safe space?

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(emphasis added)

That is a very good question.

If that were to happen, it would be, in my humble opinion, bad. So, the question you ask is a good one. The answer, I think, will have to come from the organizers of these events themselves. Will they be encouraging separation, or will they be talking to a subset of the class that represents a part of our society, talking about either their special role in society as a result of being part of that subset of society. i.e. in this case, will they be saying, "Separate yourselves from white society?"

I don't think they will.

The OP asked "is this wrong?", and I say it isn't, but that doesn't necessarily mean I think it's a good idea. There is a danger that it could be used to separate. On the other hand, it could be used to draw together. It's really dependent on how it is presented. If it is presented as "Remember the community you came from, your heritage, and the people who are still struggling with the effects of the past as you go out into the world," then it will be a good thing.

When I graduated high school, our church (catholic) held a special mass for graduates. We wore the caps and gowns, and were named individually. Does anyone think it was wrong for the church to do this, or for students to attend the ceremony that was segregated based on religious affiliation? Ok. This is ISF. Some people will hate anything done for any religious reason whatsoever, but aside from that, was there a problem?

(And I'm no longer a believer in any church, but I still don't have a problem with "catholic graduation ceremonies".)
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Old 19th May 2017, 09:10 AM   #238
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Originally Posted by marplots View Post
What is "concern trolling?"
It's the act of pretending to offer advice when you're really just criticizing.

The most common use you will see is in politics, like Hannity saying, "If the Democrats really wanted to win elections, they'd do X.

Hannity doesn't want Democrats to win elections, so the concern is fake.

In this case, we have a bunch of people gnashing their teeth over the damage this "self-segregation" will cause. They don't really give a ****, I hope, because if they care about issues facing the black community and this is the topic they've focused on...well, that would be the less charitable interpretation.
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Old 19th May 2017, 09:13 AM   #239
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Originally Posted by MostlyDead View Post
Hang on- not true on a couple counts. We are not discussing the audience, and you know it. The graduates being honored were specifically black only. Also, I am not outraged. What's to be outraged about? I think it is unnecessarily divisive, and perpetuates a line drawn that I would prefer to see softened.
Again, it was a private event. They invited other black students. Do you feel equal levels of outrage that black students weren't invited to other graduation parties?

I mean, it's just baffling. No one told white students to f-off. They simply weren't invited. This may come as some shock, but lots of people aren't invited to lots of events.

I'm sure that friends and acquaintances of the students at the private ceremonies did attend.


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The facts and applicable history (in context) are perfectly accurate. The question was: Can you see why a white guy who is not racist would view this as divisive?
Yes. They are confused, deluded, or ignorant.

It is laughably absurd that you would find this divisive.

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Old 19th May 2017, 09:16 AM   #240
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
The separate event has not happened yet, but I am looking forward to locking into the facts once we get them.
Yes, the very foundation of our civilization hangs in the balance.

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Also, you didn't actually answer my question. Calling someone a troll is a useful deflection tactic (classic circumstantial ad hominem) but you really shouldn't expect it to work among skeptics.
It is far less charitable of me to believe you are sincere.

I did, in fact, answer your question. The answer is nothing. Do you need a rule or a law to (1) prevent private graduation parties and (2) mandate that everyone attend the general ceremony?

The general ceremony will remain general. I am certain that our society will continue to function whether everyone attends, no one attends, or the participants fall somewhere between.
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