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Tags protest incidents , protest issues , Seattle incidents

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Old 1st August 2020, 12:44 PM   #241
Delphic Oracle
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State security services, secret police, unidentified government agents.

None of these sound good.
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Old 1st August 2020, 12:49 PM   #242
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Originally Posted by Safe-Keeper View Post
So the police could have left at any time without the sky falling... but didn't do so before today?

Is anyone following those faceless stormtroopers who abducted peaceful protesters in unmarked vans, to see where they're off to next? No? All right, then.

Why say fire-bombing faction? Were there terrorists there?
When things are being destroyed and lives and property are threatened, the police do not 'leave'.
That is not the job.
Did you know that the police and the Feds in Portland are a more 'diverse' group than the mob of protesters? So odd to see more % of blacks on the targeted side.

This is a such a strange time when one of the most progressive and liberal cities in the entire world (and a very very white one at that), is letting a mob run them over for months.

There are motivations why this happened that I wont list now but maybe I'll make another post about it. hint: it doesnt have much to do with any black lives.
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Old 1st August 2020, 01:23 PM   #243
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Originally Posted by Sherkeu View Post
When things are being destroyed and lives and property are threatened, the police do not 'leave'.
That is not the job.
Did you know that the police and the Feds in Portland are a more 'diverse' group than the mob of protesters? So odd to see more % of blacks on the targeted side.

This is a such a strange time when one of the most progressive and liberal cities in the entire world (and a very very white one at that), is letting a mob run them over for months.

There are motivations why this happened that I wont list now but maybe I'll make another post about it. hint: it doesnt have much to do with any black lives.
When the 'mob' is specifically there to protest the federal [fill in an acceptable word], then yeah, they should leave.

It's not like Portland doesn't have their own police.

This was a political stunt by Trump who was having a slow headline day.
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Old 1st August 2020, 02:43 PM   #244
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Yeah, I don't see what the faceless federal shadow troopers could do that local police couldn't.
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Old 1st August 2020, 02:48 PM   #245
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Originally Posted by Sherkeu View Post
When things are being destroyed and lives and property are threatened, the police do not 'leave'.
That is not the job.
Heaven's sake. I was referring to the federal troops. I thought that would be obvious, but apparently not .

Quote:
Did you know that the police and the Feds in Portland are a more 'diverse' group than the mob of protesters? So odd to see more % of blacks on the targeted side.
How on earth is that relevant to anything we were talking about?

Quote:
There are motivations why this happened that I wont list now but maybe I'll make another post about it. hint: it doesnt have much to do with any black lives.
Please, do tell. It's a secret Marxist plan to bring communism to Portland, and only faceless stormtroopers in unmarked vans can stop them, right?
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Old 1st August 2020, 04:50 PM   #246
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Is there a recognized spokesperson for the protestors?

Are there formal (presented) demands?

Is there a path to conciliation?

Can any solution be attained without engaging the Legislators, Judicial Branch and/or the Executive Branch?
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Old 1st August 2020, 06:08 PM   #247
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Originally Posted by No Other View Post
Is there a recognized spokesperson for the protestors?

Are there formal (presented) demands?

Is there a path to conciliation?

Can any solution be attained without engaging the Legislators, Judicial Branch and/or the Executive Branch?
There's a lot of caution around claiming to have any capability to change the behavior in the streets based on fulfilling specific objectives. Leaders of civil rights entities were once subjected to a chaotic array of charges, real and imagined, but nowadays the stakes are a wee bit higher. One has to tread the line by offering "analysis" of the situation *wink-wink, nudge-nudge*.

So we have to hope some mixture of social media and traditional media somehow propel a few knowledgeable and relatable people into the public consciousness on such issues.

Such calm, measured perspectives may be at a disadvantage in this climate.

Can the solutions of systemic racism within institutions of government (and particularly those tasked with justice) be addressed without engaging the government?

Theoretically, I suppose.

Most of them are really bad.

But engaging the government doesn't do much when it isnt responsive.
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Old 1st August 2020, 06:19 PM   #248
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
State security services, secret police, unidentified government agents.

None of these sound good.
That rather depends on your perspective. Offer that package to, say, Trump and he'd snap it up.
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Old 1st August 2020, 06:34 PM   #249
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
Can the solutions of systemic racism within institutions of government (and particularly those tasked with justice) be addressed without engaging the government?

Theoretically, I suppose.

Most of them are really bad.

But engaging the government doesn't do much when it isnt responsive.
What is inherent in these institutions that make it 'systemically racist'? it must be part of the system regardless of the people in it.
What are the specific laws or rules that make it so?

If officers are in areas with a lot of black on black crime and they view black suspects with more scrutiny, is that not more an indication of the statistics embedded in their own minds? Is that really racist or just bias based on previous experiences? This is not unique to non-black cops. It is literally every cop. They use experience to assess the danger. Cops in my area would be able to spot mexican gang members rather easily. I can't, but they can.

This is true of various cops in all corners of the world with populations that have higher crimes rates, and skin color is not a factor. There are many different indicators they may look for.

How do you change the human mind to ignore what it has seen in the past and have them be totally visually blind to every situation? I'm just not sure we are built that way.

That isnt systemic. That is human nature, regardless of color.
Maybe our cops of the future need to be robots.
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Old 1st August 2020, 06:37 PM   #250
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Originally Posted by No Other View Post
Is there a recognized spokesperson for the protestors?

Are there formal (presented) demands?
The objectives of the Black Lives Matter campaign are hardly mysterious. It wasn't created in response to the George Floyd murder it was simply re-energised by it. The object is to change the current situation, in which young black men are by any measure disproportionately killed by police officers, to one in which this is no longer the case.


Quote:
Is there a path to conciliation?
If a credible path towards changing the situation is proposed and initiated the protests will stop.


Quote:
Can any solution be attained without engaging the Legislators, Judicial Branch and/or the Executive Branch?
No. We're talking about a major change. In theory this was sorted out in 1865, then more so in 1965, and here we are still.
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Old 1st August 2020, 07:14 PM   #251
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Originally Posted by Sherkeu View Post
What is inherent in these institutions that make it 'systemically racist'? it must be part of the system regardless of the people in it.
What are the specific laws or rules that make it so?
There's more to the system than the laws and the rules. There's also the class of people who enforce and make judgements on the laws and rules. (Let's not mention the lawyers, since that way madness lies.) That class changes in two ways : one involves fountains of blood and is fast, the other is very slow. There were fountains of blood for Confederate soldiers but not so much for Confederate judges, who lost at worst property (for which they were compensated, but let's not get into that). Hence Jim Crow and penal (black) labour to replace slaves.

Which was theoretically sorted out in the 1960's by increased federal enforcement, and a good thing too - Trump may salivate over the Selma beatings but you just can't get away with that any more, even though those police were Democrats! The real racists! So unfair ...
Quote:
If officers are in areas with a lot of black on black crime and they view black suspects with more scrutiny, is that not more an indication of the statistics embedded in their own minds?
Academia has been over the copious statistics like a bad suit for decades, allowing and adjusting for everything imaginable to get a meaningful measure, and always they find a glaring disparity - young black men are regarded as peculiarly dangerous by police forces in the US as a whole.

Two contributory factors are the facts that, in the Jim Crow states, oppressing black men was the purpose of the police until the 1960's, and that police culture has changed slowly and reluctantly, and that the influx of Southern blacks into northern cities only got up steam a century ago, and that's not much time for an established police culture to change significantly. Two of many.
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Old 1st August 2020, 07:27 PM   #252
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Originally Posted by Sherkeu View Post
What is inherent in these institutions that make it 'systemically racist'? it must be part of the system regardless of the people in it.

What are the specific laws or rules that make it so?



If officers are in areas with a lot of black on black crime and they view black suspects with more scrutiny, is that not more an indication of the statistics embedded in their own minds? Is that really racist or just bias based on previous experiences? This is not unique to non-black cops. It is literally every cop. They use experience to assess the danger. Cops in my area would be able to spot mexican gang members rather easily. I can't, but they can.



This is true of various cops in all corners of the world with populations that have higher crimes rates, and skin color is not a factor. There are many different indicators they may look for.



How do you change the human mind to ignore what it has seen in the past and have them be totally visually blind to every situation? I'm just not sure we are built that way.



That isnt systemic. That is human nature, regardless of color.

Maybe our cops of the future need to be robots.
Do you expect those on the receiving end of undeserved abuse will resign themselves to this hopelessness?

Another aspect of "human nature" (memetics can and do change, even a casual glance across the last 100 years speaks to that) is we aren't so good at the whole wandering off to find a rock to suffer and die under, ever so quietly of course, so as to not inconvenience anyone.
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Old 1st August 2020, 07:44 PM   #253
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
Another aspect of "human nature" (memetics can and do change, even a casual glance across the last 100 years speaks to that) is we aren't so good at the whole wandering off to find a rock to suffer and die under, ever so quietly of course, so as to not inconvenience anyone.
I think the recent BLM demonstrations show that the situation has become unacceptable in a much wider sense than the black population. The Trumptrash third of the population holds out, of course, but their demographic fate was sealed before covid-19 came in to hurry it along.
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Old 2nd August 2020, 09:33 AM   #254
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
There's a lot of caution around claiming to have any capability to change the behavior in the streets based on fulfilling specific objectives. Leaders of civil rights entities were once subjected to a chaotic array of charges, real and imagined, but nowadays the stakes are a wee bit higher. One has to tread the line by offering "analysis" of the situation *wink-wink, nudge-nudge*.

So we have to hope some mixture of social media and traditional media somehow propel a few knowledgeable and relatable people into the public consciousness on such issues.

Such calm, measured perspectives may be at a disadvantage in this climate.

Can the solutions of systemic racism within institutions of government (and particularly those tasked with justice) be addressed without engaging the government?

Theoretically, I suppose.

Most of them are really bad.

But engaging the government doesn't do much when it isnt responsive.
The lack of response from all levels of our government is shameful.

I do not see Social Media as being calm, in fact, I see it as a Transmitter of targeted emotional outbursts. Same would go for YouTube.

If we have to rely on those social media outlets to do the bidding all of us will lose. Social Media is nothing but a biased (I am giving the benefit of doubt instead of saying prejudiced) monologue and not a dialogue. I got off Social Media in 2012 and have never looked back yet my wife is on it and she relays to me postings that are outrageous which only reaffirms my decision. If we all did our own research and not rely on someone else's opinion, at least that decision (however bad it may be) is made with forethought generated and processed by ones self.
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Old 2nd August 2020, 10:19 AM   #255
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Originally Posted by CapelDodger View Post
The objectives of the Black Lives Matter campaign are hardly mysterious. It wasn't created in response to the George Floyd murder it was simply re-energised by it. The object is to change the current situation, in which young black men are by any measure disproportionately killed by police officers, to one in which this is no longer the case.



If a credible path towards changing the situation is proposed and initiated the protests will stop.



No. We're talking about a major change. In theory this was sorted out in 1865, then more so in 1965, and here we are still.
I appreciate your response.

Without a focused spokesperson, I do not see how anything can move along. It was mentioned in a previous post (Delphic Oracle) how civil rights leaders were prosecuted, persecuted and harassed by being a focal point... and that is true. Where are today's Civil Rights Leaders? I certainly hope it is not Don Lemon, Rush Limbaugh, that guy on the Daily Show, or Alex Jones who will be the Spokesperson... or somebody who has 5 million followers just because he/she starred in a movie. There is no pivot point in this "movement", it is only an amalgamation of individual outbursts. If this is organized then there would a Leader, it is currently nothing but a disruption without a cause.

Most people do not peel back the onion, their attention span is that of a gnat, their vision is tunneled yet not focused, plus their ability to listen and assimilate is hindered by their inability to distinguish right from wrong. Recognizing and managing cognitive dissonance has taken a hit in this millennium and I do not see it making a return for quite some time... if at all. This is where the Social Media dominates because there is no standardization or enforcement of rules regarding misinformation, the only thing that dominates these platforms are opinions. Facts is another casualty of these protests and this Covid-19 fiasco.

So where does this whole mess go from here? Are we just going to make fun of the President's tweets and gaffs? Are we just going to bring more investigative committees forward to look into possible abuses of the Oval Office? There is no end-game; this entire situation of protesting and this Covid-19 debacle have no quantifiable milestones or benchmarks. These are rudderless events with no discernible outcome.We don't know what it will take to end the protesting and we do not know what statistical point we need to achieve in order to say Covid-19 does not deserve our attention anymore. But we do surround ourselves with like minded people and get fed a steady stream of the same dribble without contrasting it against opposing opinions.

Please accept my apology for the rant, it was not aimed at you... heck, you responded in a civil manner and I went down a different fork in the road.
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Old 2nd August 2020, 11:07 AM   #256
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Originally Posted by No Other View Post
I appreciate your response.



Without a focused spokesperson, I do not see how anything can move along. It was mentioned in a previous post (Delphic Oracle) how civil rights leaders were prosecuted, persecuted and harassed by being a focal point... and that is true. Where are today's Civil Rights Leaders? I certainly hope it is not Don Lemon, Rush Limbaugh, that guy on the Daily Show, or Alex Jones who will be the Spokesperson... or somebody who has 5 million followers just because he/she starred in a movie. There is no pivot point in this "movement", it is only an amalgamation of individual outbursts. If this is organized then there would a Leader, it is currently nothing but a disruption without a cause.



Most people do not peel back the onion, their attention span is that of a gnat, their vision is tunneled yet not focused, plus their ability to listen and assimilate is hindered by their inability to distinguish right from wrong. Recognizing and managing cognitive dissonance has taken a hit in this millennium and I do not see it making a return for quite some time... if at all. This is where the Social Media dominates because there is no standardization or enforcement of rules regarding misinformation, the only thing that dominates these platforms are opinions. Facts is another casualty of these protests and this Covid-19 fiasco.



So where does this whole mess go from here? Are we just going to make fun of the President's tweets and gaffs? Are we just going to bring more investigative committees forward to look into possible abuses of the Oval Office? There is no end-game; this entire situation of protesting and this Covid-19 debacle have no quantifiable milestones or benchmarks. These are rudderless events with no discernible outcome.We don't know what it will take to end the protesting and we do not know what statistical point we need to achieve in order to say Covid-19 does not deserve our attention anymore. But we do surround ourselves with like minded people and get fed a steady stream of the same dribble without contrasting it against opposing opinions.



Please accept my apology for the rant, it was not aimed at you... heck, you responded in a civil manner and I went down a different fork in the road.
This is how civil upheaval works.

History likes to package these things in neat boxes with nice labels, but in most cases those identified as leaders in the aftermath were desperately chasing to keep up with events and those who fancied themselves leaders early on end up as footnotes.

Last edited by Delphic Oracle; 2nd August 2020 at 11:08 AM.
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Old 2nd August 2020, 03:39 PM   #257
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
This is how civil upheaval works.

History likes to package these things in neat boxes with nice labels, but in most cases those identified as leaders in the aftermath were desperately chasing to keep up with events and those who fancied themselves leaders early on end up as footnotes.
Spot on, my American History professor used to label these Leaders as "Accidental Leaders".

I see this as a never ending spiral...
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Old 3rd August 2020, 03:02 PM   #258
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Originally Posted by Safe-Keeper View Post
Yeah, I don't see what the faceless federal shadow troopers could do that local police couldn't.
It's more a case of what the local police wouldn't do. They are hypothetically capable of doing the job, but they (or their superiors, it gets hazy) chose not to do the job.
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Old 3rd August 2020, 03:04 PM   #259
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Originally Posted by Sherkeu View Post
Maybe our cops of the future need to be robots.
I think I read that book.
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Old 4th August 2020, 03:56 PM   #260
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
It's more a case of what the local police wouldn't do. They are hypothetically capable of doing the job, but they (or their superiors, it gets hazy) chose not to do the job.
What job was it they did?
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Old 4th August 2020, 04:04 PM   #261
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Originally Posted by No Other View Post
Without a focused spokesperson, I do not see how anything can move along.
BLM is not the sort of thing which has leaders or spokespeople. What is actually needed for progress is a political party (which will have to be the Democrats) must present a credible program for drastically improving the situation, principally, I think, by addressing the apparent impunity of officers in so many police authorities. It will have to be followed through, of course, and if it's not, that's when protest comes in again.
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Old 4th August 2020, 05:12 PM   #262
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
This is how civil upheaval works.

History likes to package these things in neat boxes with nice labels ...
It really doesn't. Popular history tends to do that, but historians eschew simplicity and revel in nuance.


Quote:
... but in most cases those identified as leaders in the aftermath were desperately chasing to keep up with events ...
They are identified as leaders after the events because they were either drawn into leadership by said events or made better use of them than others in furthering their ambitions. That's why they're identified as leaders in popular history rather than ...
Quote:

and those who fancied themselves leaders early on end up as footnotes.
... being forgotten (except by historians).


Cromwell. Napoleon. Lenin. Martin Luther King. All identified as leaders after the events. It defies generalisations.
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Old 4th August 2020, 05:23 PM   #263
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
When the 'mob' is specifically there to protest the federal [fill in an acceptable word], then yeah, they should leave.

It's not like Portland doesn't have their own police.

This was a political stunt by Trump who was having a slow headline day.
It's actually what he said he would do during the campaign.

Blah blah blah ancient African-American proverb, you know the deal.
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Old 4th August 2020, 06:14 PM   #264
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It appears that Trump has declared victory in Portland and is drawing down the Republican Guard without them actually sweeping the streets of agitators as previously advertised. That has to be a bit demoralising for the Republican Guard itself, but saisfying for Trump and the likes of Emily's Cat.

So Portland becomes a yawn.
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Old 4th August 2020, 06:33 PM   #265
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Originally Posted by CapelDodger View Post
The objectives of the Black Lives Matter campaign are hardly mysterious. It wasn't created in response to the George Floyd murder it was simply re-energised by it. The object is to change the current situation, in which young black men are by any measure disproportionately killed by police officers, to one in which this is no longer the case.
Really, it it was created in response to the aquittal of murderer George Zimmerman. We know that any random cop can suddenly just show up in a rage and beat, choke, shoot us black people (men *and* women - the latter are often forgotten) for no reason and get away with it. We do *not* expect this from random black dudes freaking out because of a burglary the year before.

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If a credible path towards changing the situation is proposed and initiated the protests will stop.

No. We're talking about a major change. In theory this was sorted out in 1865, then more so in 1965, and here we are still.
Yep. Cops need much better training, and to lose their military surplus - they can't use their toys responsibly, so they lose them. Bring back counselors and mental health professionals, and leave the cops out of those situations.

...Among many other reforms.
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Old Yesterday, 05:17 AM   #266
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Originally Posted by CapelDodger View Post
It appears that Trump has declared victory in Portland and is drawing down the Republican Guard without them actually sweeping the streets of agitators as previously advertised. That has to be a bit demoralising for the Republican Guard itself, but saisfying for Trump and the likes of Emily's Cat.

So Portland becomes a yawn.
This is the most tragic and depressing part of the Trump presidency for me: that we live in a post-fact world where you-know-who can just rewrite events at will.

Thus you have trumpkins convinced the Mueller investigation was a failure and that it lasted unnaturally long, and that Portland is now quiet because he sent in the Trumpwaffe stormtroopers.

Not to mention that the failures they can't rationalise are handwaved by pretending Biden/Obama/Clinton did, or would have done, just as badly.

This is why I'm such a big proponent for Twitter, Facebook, and other social media sites offering people more balanced news feeds, rather than just giving them more of what they already like, essentially turning every user's feed into their own personal echo chamber. We've got enough of those already.
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Old Yesterday, 05:19 AM   #267
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
It's more a case of what the local police wouldn't do. They are hypothetically capable of doing the job, but they (or their superiors, it gets hazy) chose not to do the job.
So to you it's a black-and-white binary choice between regular policemen and faceless, unaccountable, heavily armed thugs shoving peaceful protesters into black vans? How enlightening.
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Old Yesterday, 05:46 AM   #268
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Originally Posted by Sherkeu View Post
When things are being destroyed and lives and property are threatened, the police do not 'leave'.
They absolutely do leave. And then run to the media to talk about "all these looters". Ferguson got to the point where BLM and other protesters physically ejected looters and then stood outside them to protect them. The protesters themselves? Tear gas, guns, flashbangs, to preserve their white supremacist ripoff scheme.

And it's the same in far too many cities. Two black kids talking on a street corner? Thrown into a wall, screaming slurs and threats, beatings. Rape victims? Laughed at and called a whore. Robbed at gunpoint? No response. Shooting? Better keep your mouth shut, because the cops will offer you no protection.

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Old Yesterday, 05:47 AM   #269
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Originally Posted by CapelDodger View Post
It really doesn't. Popular history tends to do that, but historians eschew simplicity and revel in nuance.



They are identified as leaders after the events because they were either drawn into leadership by said events or made better use of them than others in furthering their ambitions. That's why they're identified as leaders in popular history rather than ...

... being forgotten (except by historians).


Cromwell. Napoleon. Lenin. Martin Luther King. All identified as leaders after the events. It defies generalisations.
Okay, but the civil upheaval we're currently experiencing hasn't risen to anywhere near the level that propelled any of those figures to their current stature. So looking for the leader now is futile.
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Old Yesterday, 10:36 AM   #270
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Originally Posted by CapelDodger View Post
It appears that Trump has declared victory in Portland and is drawing down the Republican Guard without them actually sweeping the streets of agitators as previously advertised. That has to be a bit demoralising for the Republican Guard itself, but saisfying for Trump and the likes of Emily's Cat.

So Portland becomes a yawn.
WTH is that supposed to mean?
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Old Yesterday, 10:37 AM   #271
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Originally Posted by Safe-Keeper View Post
So to you it's a black-and-white binary choice between regular policemen and faceless, unaccountable, heavily armed thugs shoving peaceful protesters into black vans? How enlightening.
Arguments from "so" are almost always wrong. This is one of those times. Also enlightening
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Old Yesterday, 02:23 PM   #272
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Arguments from "so" are almost always wrong. This is one of those times.
It was a rhetorical question. If the answer is no, your post makes very little sense.
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Old Yesterday, 03:20 PM   #273
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Originally Posted by Safe-Keeper View Post
It was a rhetorical question. If the answer is no, your post makes very little sense.
You're right, it wasn't actually a question seeking an answer. It was an assumption of a point of view attributed to me, without supporting evidence, complete with an implied insult tossed in at the end.
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Old Yesterday, 07:48 PM   #274
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Aurora (Denver) has been having its own fair share of racist-police events, last month was the guy carrying groceries home pinned down and injected with ketamine, dying in custody. Now a woman and her kids were handcuffed and laid out on the concrete, because the plate on her SUV matched that of a motorcycle in another state listed as stolen. It's good that they weren't killed, but that's a horrifyingly low bar to clear.

Those of us not black can't sigh in relief that it's only black people. Police get used to being able to get away with brutal actions because it's only black people, and they don't stop doing them when it's not.
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Old Yesterday, 09:05 PM   #275
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Originally Posted by Silly Green Monkey View Post
Aurora (Denver) has been having its own fair share of racist-police events, last month was the guy carrying groceries home pinned down and injected with ketamine, dying in custody. Now a woman and her kids were handcuffed and laid out on the concrete, because the plate on her SUV matched that of a motorcycle in another state listed as stolen. It's good that they weren't killed, but that's a horrifyingly low bar to clear.
At least in the latter one I know the PD is trying to make right. Of course, when there's video of you handcuffing a shrieking child because you mistook an SUV for a motorcycle.

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Those of us not black can't sigh in relief that it's only black people. Police get used to being able to get away with brutal actions because it's only black people, and they don't stop doing them when it's not.
As I always say, the people most likely to be killed by police are actually Native Americans.
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