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10th April 2015, 08:17 AM | #41 |
Penultimate Amazing
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How about ABEs- After Birth Experiences? I have had a lot of these. Many of them quite interesting. And I have photos, too!
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10th April 2015, 08:19 AM | #42 |
Muse
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Two minutes of Googling gave me this paper from 1994, which reports that in various studies:
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10th April 2015, 08:24 AM | #43 |
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10th April 2015, 10:16 AM | #44 |
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10th April 2015, 03:33 PM | #45 |
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10th April 2015, 08:41 PM | #46 |
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"More evidence that near death experiences are related to brain activity, not the supernatural"
http://doubtfulnews.com/2015/04/more...-supernatural/ |
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10th April 2015, 10:45 PM | #47 |
I lost an avatar bet.
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I lost an avatar bet to Doghouse Reilly. |
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11th April 2015, 12:00 AM | #48 |
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No one has yet read any of the secret messages in actual experiments.
AWARE Results Finally Published – No Evidence of NDE
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11th April 2015, 07:11 AM | #49 |
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11th April 2015, 11:29 PM | #50 |
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I don't think it proves that the NDE is just a delusion. The brain activity in these experiments indicates the perception of something.
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12th April 2015, 03:23 AM | #51 |
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Perhaps the perception of oxygen starvation?
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12th April 2015, 03:25 AM | #52 |
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It's the perception of cerebral hypoxia (if that qualifies as a perception; perhaps 'experience' is more apt).
Neurons short of oxygen and/or overloaded with CO2 and other metabolic toxins, due to reduced blood flow, will fire spontaneously, particularly in the absence of significant sensory input. |
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Simple probability tells us that we should expect coincidences, and simple psychology tells us that we'll remember the ones we notice... |
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12th April 2015, 09:58 AM | #53 |
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Delusion is an experience.
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12th April 2015, 09:59 AM | #54 |
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"If I hadn't believed it with my own mind, I would never have seen it." - thanks sackett "If you stand on a piece of paper, you are indeed closer to the moon." - MRC_Hans "I was a believer. Until I saw it." - Magrat |
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12th April 2015, 10:17 AM | #55 |
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A very perceptive comment! It's all post hoc — spoken in words which spring from the soil of culture, fruiting phrases sown deep in our minds by memory we had no will but to form.
To speak, perchance to Recall; Aye, there's the hubbub, For in that sleep of near death, what memes may come, When we haven't utterly shuffled off this mortal coil, Must give us applause. — Spamlet, by Tremorlance. |
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12th April 2015, 10:20 AM | #56 |
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"If I hadn't believed it with my own mind, I would never have seen it." - thanks sackett "If you stand on a piece of paper, you are indeed closer to the moon." - MRC_Hans "I was a believer. Until I saw it." - Magrat |
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12th April 2015, 10:48 AM | #57 |
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17th April 2015, 10:56 PM | #58 |
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I'm curious about NDE's myself, always have been since I heard the story when I was a kid about my grandfather having one when the Spanish flu almost killed him back in 1919 or so.
So, what's the skeptical explanation for the fact that people who have these often do so when their brain wave activity has flatlined, especially those who describe externally verifiable occurrences during that time? Seems to me it's hard to explain this phenomenon in terms of anomalous brain activity when there isn't any such activity going on. |
17th April 2015, 11:27 PM | #59 |
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Even if they did indeed flat line for a period there was brain activity before and after that period. There is no reason to assume any experiences they later relate occurred during the flatline period rather than before or after it. Claims of experiencing externally verifable occurrences during the flat line period never stand up to investigation, and experiments attempting to obtain objective evidence of such claims have had negative results.
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18th April 2015, 12:01 AM | #60 |
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You don't know that. Not all NDEs proceed according to your idealized model.
Who's this "you", kemosabe? Can you cite where the expectations of an injured, dying brain have been established? Bald assertion with no basis whatsoever. Bald assertion with no basis whatsoever. Bald assertion with no basis whatsoever. Again with the "you" stuff. Who is "you? Can I suggest that you either speak for yourself or cite sources for more general assertions. In short, you post was simply vacuous. |
18th April 2015, 03:05 AM | #61 |
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This is brain activity measured via EEG, a summation of millions or billions of neurons firing in synchrony. Not detecting neural activity via EEG doesn't necessarily mean there's no neural activity, it may mean it's too disorganised (insufficiently synchronous) to sum above background noise, or that it's too weak to be detected, or it's too deep (e.g. the cortex is not significantly active). It's conceivable that auditory input could be processed by the deep brain while the cortex is minimally active, and recalled later.
Also, as Pixel42 says, it's difficult to establish the precise temporal correspondence between reported experiences and brain activity. All NDEs are retrospective. For 'traditional' NDEs involving tunnels, lights, meeting relatives, etc., the activity that generates the recalled experience may occur before the brain becomes incapable of it (assuming it does become so incapable) as hypoxia set in, or afterwards, as the brain recovers (as the blood supply is restored, perhaps analogously to the 'pins & needles' of peripheral sensory nerves). You say, "people who have these often do so when their brain wave activity has flatlined, especially those who describe externally verifiable occurrences during that time". I'd like to see your evidence for this - how many? how often? which descriptions of external events have really been verified? perhaps some links to examples? I do wonder in how many emergency situations of this kind - where there may be a great deal of confusion, or well-drilled staff are busy focusing on their tasks - a sufficiently precise temporal record of events around the patient is kept to validate reports of conversation, etc., and correlate them with specific times of minimal brain activity. The AWARE study was specifically set up to investigate this in the cardiac emergency/resuscitation rooms of 25 major medical centers, and found only 2% reports of visual awareness during cardiac arrest, and just one 'verifiable period of conscious awareness during which time cerebral function was not expected' (though this expectation was based on the assumption that cerebral function is 'ordinarily absent or at best severely impaired' during cardiac arrest, and wasn't supported with EEG measurement). |
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Simple probability tells us that we should expect coincidences, and simple psychology tells us that we'll remember the ones we notice... |
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19th April 2015, 04:09 AM | #62 |
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'Where' is the image in the mind? What 'space' is the image in your mind in? Where is the dream? Where is your inner voice? It's not the same spacetime then where the electrical and chemical pulses are in the brain, causing this image or the dream. The image you see in your mind's eye is in a completely different dimension than where the chemistry in the brain is. (Maarten Vergucht) |
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19th April 2015, 05:14 AM | #63 |
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Hereby you admit it's not scientific; that it's fuzzy. Hereby you admit there's nothing to your ideas. So, what have you learned over the course of this thread?
Seems to me you have two choices: 1. Double-down and keep insisting that your "only evidence" is good enough. 2. Admit that NDEs happen in the mind, which is in the brain, which is the head, while it all faces peril and then returns to normal. |
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19th April 2015, 09:15 AM | #64 |
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Maartenn, if the best you can do for evidence is the vague statistical noise of some other folks' experiences (no, let's don't rehash this, ok? You can go back to the previous page if you don't understand what I mean by that), then you're simply asking a question that's unanswerable by any rational test except one- your own experience. I understand that this is something you need deeply to believe; but you'll find out soon enough. Knowing now one way or the other won't change anything, will it? Just let it go, man- how can you enjoy the life you have now when you're so wrapped up in the death you must have in its own time?
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I'm tired of the bombs, tired of the bullets, tired of the crazies on TV; I'm the aviator, a dream's a dream whatever it seems Deep Purple- "The Aviator" Life was a short shelf that came with bookends- Stephen King |
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19th April 2015, 10:29 AM | #65 |
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19th April 2015, 11:18 AM | #66 |
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19th April 2015, 11:39 AM | #67 |
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There's nothing new about this theory.
The brain structure and the evolved responses to near-death experiences would be in all people for natural reasons. Any similarity in hallucination and dissociation would be easily explained by this and not proof of the afterlife. This is claimed as good evidence for the afterlife precisely because it is so ambiguous and rejects attempts for legitimate research, not because it is an explanation that rules out all natural explanations... |
19th April 2015, 02:08 PM | #68 |
Illuminator
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The remarkable point about these experiences is that each area of the brain processes multiple functions and that "conscious” states such as seeing, thinking, feelings and emotions are mediated in many areas at the same time. What are the chances that the same sequence of networks are active in brains of dying many people (OBE, Seeing the tunnel, experiencing feelings of piece, going through the tunnel (motor cortex) seeing the light (occipital lobs), lifereview (long-term memory), empathie during lifereview (mirrorneurons) etc). This exact same pattern and the exact same sequence of parts of the brain are fyring in a dying person? What are the chances? Very low, in my opinion.
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'Where' is the image in the mind? What 'space' is the image in your mind in? Where is the dream? Where is your inner voice? It's not the same spacetime then where the electrical and chemical pulses are in the brain, causing this image or the dream. The image you see in your mind's eye is in a completely different dimension than where the chemistry in the brain is. (Maarten Vergucht) |
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19th April 2015, 02:23 PM | #69 |
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I'm not saying he is a liar just an outlier. hehe. As in, the vast consensus is that in cases where zero brain activity is claimed, even if it were accepted that there was low brain activity for a time, the time in between a coma and waking is enough time for these dreams. All of the debunkings of the claims of Eben Alexander go into detail about this.
http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/this-must-be-heaven As you'll see, Alexander's claims all rely on how his brain had zero activity, and these claims are all stupid, and delusional. For example...
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19th April 2015, 02:28 PM | #70 |
Illuminator
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Joey, I chanced my previous post, sorry for that. Ok. But what do you think about the fact that a certain sequence of networks must fyer in the brain to construct this OBE and NDE.
And in all these brains of dying people, the same procedure of fyering neuronetworks is active. What are the chances? We are talking about the occipital lobs, the frontal lobs (interpretation), long term memory (livereview), deep feelings of piece, mirrorneurons for empathy etc. What are the chances that this sequence of neurons are fyering in all these patiens in (almost) the same ordre and their interpretation is almost equal? |
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'Where' is the image in the mind? What 'space' is the image in your mind in? Where is the dream? Where is your inner voice? It's not the same spacetime then where the electrical and chemical pulses are in the brain, causing this image or the dream. The image you see in your mind's eye is in a completely different dimension than where the chemistry in the brain is. (Maarten Vergucht) |
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19th April 2015, 02:29 PM | #71 |
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19th April 2015, 02:31 PM | #72 |
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The phenomenon isn't exactly the same. There are similarities, but there aren't any that are always the same in every case, it's a grouping of reports. It's not exact in any way. In another thread you are trying to teach me about irreducible complexity, and you're making the same mistake here. Something appearing to be amazing and "too much of a coincidence" doesn't preclude a naturalistic explanation.
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19th April 2015, 04:30 PM | #73 |
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What happens when a car runs low on oil? It overheats. Friction on bearings, pistons, etc. increases. The metal expands. Continued operation eventually causes the engine to seize and DIE.
Doesn't matter what make and model of car. Diesel or gasoline. Manufactured in Japan, Russia, Sweden, etc. Hot weather or cold. In the northern hemisphere or southern hemisphere.
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19th April 2015, 05:55 PM | #74 |
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I'm tired of the bombs, tired of the bullets, tired of the crazies on TV; I'm the aviator, a dream's a dream whatever it seems Deep Purple- "The Aviator" Life was a short shelf that came with bookends- Stephen King |
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19th April 2015, 07:04 PM | #75 |
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The chances are excellent. Just as they are that multiple women will describe the experience of childbirth in a similar way.
When the same thing happens to a similar organ (brain, uterus, whatever), people tend to experience the same types of things. In fact, either explanation for NDEs relies on this. No matter if the experience is generated by a lack of oxygen or contact with another realm, you are relying on similar causes to produce similar experiences and similar reports. Look elsewhere for a sense of mystery. The similarity of reports tells you nothing important. |
20th April 2015, 03:54 AM | #77 |
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20th April 2015, 04:17 AM | #78 |
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I have a new argument pro BSEs:
According to current neuroscience many parts of the brain are involved in the experience of the bed spinning, the wobbling, the nauseus feeling, the words 'Make it stop. I'm going to throw up' etcetera. All after a heavy night on the booze before crashing on the bed. The verbal cortex, the occipital lobes, the inner ear etc. All must be involved. Chances are low that the sequence of electric activity in the brain of hundreds of people are almost exactly the same in such a way that they have the same sort of experiences. To have a BSE, to feel the bed, indeed the whole room wildly spinning, assumes a certain patern of electric activity in the brain. It must be a big coincidence that the intoxicated brains of all these people are functioning so well that they have the same sequence and patern of electric activity. It's also about the ontological status of 'the wildly gyrating bed' when many people have the same experience, independent from each other. |
20th April 2015, 04:37 AM | #79 |
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20th April 2015, 04:39 AM | #80 |
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