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20th April 2015, 05:03 AM | #81 |
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20th April 2015, 05:55 AM | #82 |
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Like Loss Leader, I am also lucky to be here.
I however have a different experiance. After an illness at home it transpired that I collapsed and an ambulance was called. I have vague memories - almost like a dream of hearing a voice saying "It's not your turn yet". Well - to give the quote the full context "It's not your turn yet. Not now - come on you *******, you're not going to die on me not when we are so ******* close to the hospital" The ambulance technician, who I later met so that I could give them my thanks, confirmed that that is what they had said whilst doing CPR on me in the back of the ambulance. She also apologised for her language. |
20th April 2015, 06:22 AM | #83 |
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20th April 2015, 06:29 AM | #84 |
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20th April 2015, 07:23 AM | #85 |
Penultimate Amazing
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We must have different dictionaries.
"noun: incredulity the state of being unwilling or unable to believe something." I am unable/unwilling to believe that NDEs are explained best by spiritual ideas. The notion does not seem credible to me. In fact, it seems incredible. The fact there is an alternate explanation I prefer doesn't change this state, it actually enhances it. |
20th April 2015, 07:28 AM | #86 |
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You are correct that that is what 'incredulity' means. However an argument from incredulity is solely based on incredulity. The normal skeptic position is that not only do we find the NDE's based on spirituality incredible, but as you also note, we can point to alternative explanations. This means that we are not arguing from incredulity.
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20th April 2015, 07:42 AM | #87 |
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20th April 2015, 08:13 AM | #88 |
Penultimate Amazing
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I always try to speak for myself. No one is willing to pay me to speak for them.
But yes, the context for my comment was the existing state of affairs, not some future possible state. After all, maybe the horse will sing. |
20th April 2015, 02:18 PM | #89 |
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I get the feeling that NDE "researchers" do a lot of cherry-picking. Some subset of people report similar experiences after a cardiac arrest or similar event. The NDE "researchers" gather these, say, "Isn't that amazing?" and ignore the (probable majority of) people who experience nothing, or experience something other than the "standard" NDE.
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23rd April 2015, 04:50 PM | #90 |
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I'm all for scientific explanations of an NDE-experience but it seems every time I hear or read someone try and give a rational explanation for an NDE it doesn't even come close to explaining what people have described, other than explaining what might be the tunnel with a light at the end. what about all the other things which have been described by so many people? Just seems like the skeptics really have nothing substantial to offer to explain these trips people take.
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'Where' is the image in the mind? What 'space' is the image in your mind in? Where is the dream? Where is your inner voice? It's not the same spacetime then where the electrical and chemical pulses are in the brain, causing this image or the dream. The image you see in your mind's eye is in a completely different dimension than where the chemistry in the brain is. (Maarten Vergucht) |
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23rd April 2015, 05:14 PM | #91 |
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23rd April 2015, 05:36 PM | #92 |
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You call an eye witness testimony of many people "woo!-laden anecdotes". That's not only disrespectful, that's also not true. What's wrong by the way with an anecdote?
I want to call it the anecdote fallacy. It's the fallacy wich says: "it's an anecdote, so it must be wrong." Or 'the professor eye witnessed the experiment, so he must be wrong because eye witness testimony is not reliable'". That's a fallacy. |
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'Where' is the image in the mind? What 'space' is the image in your mind in? Where is the dream? Where is your inner voice? It's not the same spacetime then where the electrical and chemical pulses are in the brain, causing this image or the dream. The image you see in your mind's eye is in a completely different dimension than where the chemistry in the brain is. (Maarten Vergucht) |
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23rd April 2015, 06:06 PM | #93 |
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OK, here is an anecdote. Six years ago when I was in hospital after a heart attack, I had a second heart attack, and apparently was a "code blue", and got rushed into intensive care and rightly so). I stopped breathing, which I suppose could be described as near death. Nearly 16 hours later, I woke with a tube stuck down my throat, and heaps of "stuff on poles" attached to me in recovery with a couple of my kids in the room.
The entire time of my "near death" from start to finish is a complete blank. No dreams, no "light at the end of the tunnel". Nothing at all, save I remember collapsing, and remember waking up. This is my non eye witness testimony as to what happened to me, as I was literally not there, or anywhere else during those 16 hours. Norm |
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23rd April 2015, 06:15 PM | #94 |
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Nothing substantial is really needed to counteract what isn't substantially supported, is it?
And for pete's sake, stop with the whining already; it's unseemly. You were the one who appealed to science- sorry, but you don't get to change its terms and necessities when you suddenly find the real thing doesn't work for you. That is disrespectful of the thing you once wanted, kind of like deciding after a divorce that your ex was always really just a terrible human being anyway. Get over it already; acknowledge your woo as woo, believe it if you want, and move on. |
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I'm tired of the bombs, tired of the bullets, tired of the crazies on TV; I'm the aviator, a dream's a dream whatever it seems Deep Purple- "The Aviator" Life was a short shelf that came with bookends- Stephen King |
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23rd April 2015, 08:24 PM | #95 |
I lost an avatar bet.
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You misunderstood my post.
I said that YouTube videos cannot be considered eyewitness testimony because there is absolutely no evidence that the people making the videos have ever flatlined or otherwise experienced a NDE. YouTube is filled with liars who are more concerned with getting hits than with providing factual testimony that can be considered evidence. YouTube stories are not eyewitness testimony. YouTube stories are not evidence. YouTube stories cannot be used to support your speculations. |
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23rd April 2015, 08:30 PM | #96 |
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You are indulging in a straw person argument. It should go over there under the windmill, with the others.
What is "wrong" with an anecdote is that it is untestable and subjective. An anecdote may serve as the basis for beginning to examine a phenomenon, but it is not, cannot be, evidence that the phenomenon does, in fact, exist. Are you familiar with Simmons' Gorilla? Are you familiar with confirmation bias? Are you familiar with eh Texas sharpshooter fallacy, and the New Mexico Tourist fallacy? ...those are only a few things "wrong" with pretending that an anecdote is objective evidence. As far as "the professor"; if what she "witnessed" in the "experiment" is never duplicated, is never repeated, and can not ever be experienced by anyone else, then, yes, her "eyewitness anecdote" is "wrong". Kinda like all those who have"eyewitnessed" 'Squatch. |
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"They want to make their molehills equal to the mountains by cutting the mountains down." -turingtest "The universe did not come from nothing, it came from 'We don't know'." -Dancing David "Cry, booga, booga, booga! and let slip the Hamsters of Silly!" -JFDHintze |
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23rd April 2015, 10:55 PM | #97 |
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Indeed; and ...
Quote:
"But it happened to so many people!" "List them." Flaps arms. "Lots and lots." "Oh, you mean imaginary people?" "You skeptics are so closed. What about all the identical reports?" "List them." "Tunnels and light; God and oh God! and it's not your time." "Are you talking about metaphors for sex?" "No, no, no, no. You skeptics. NDEs. EN DEE EEEES." "Nazarene Didn't Exist?" Whaaaaa. |
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"If I hadn't believed it with my own mind, I would never have seen it." - thanks sackett "If you stand on a piece of paper, you are indeed closer to the moon." - MRC_Hans "I was a believer. Until I saw it." - Magrat |
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24th April 2015, 01:17 AM | #98 |
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24th April 2015, 01:36 AM | #99 |
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Here's some information to defeat the notion that most NDEs are the same:
http://www.bbc.com/future/story/2015...ly-like-to-die they reported dream-like or hallucinatory scenarios that [Sam] Parnia and his co-authors categorised into seven major themes. “Most of these were not consistent to what’s called ‘near-death’ experiences,” Parnia says. “It seems like the mental experience of death is much broader than what’s been assumed in the past.”While the article is fluffy and speaks glibly of bringing people "back from the dead", and also begins with a strongly woo story suggesting OOBe is real, it's still got some interesting stuff in it. |
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"If I hadn't believed it with my own mind, I would never have seen it." - thanks sackett "If you stand on a piece of paper, you are indeed closer to the moon." - MRC_Hans "I was a believer. Until I saw it." - Magrat |
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24th April 2015, 01:54 AM | #100 |
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That's not what people are saying. What they are trying to explain to you is that it's the explanation of that anecdote that is wrong. Just because someone claims they saw the gates of heaven doesn't mean they actually did. What you need to do is show some evidence that what they claim to have experienced is really what happened, and not just a hallucination or dream-like experience caused by lack of oxygen.
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24th April 2015, 06:47 AM | #101 |
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So, your eye witness testimony of this forum and your observations (eye witness) of my posts are not reliable?
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'Where' is the image in the mind? What 'space' is the image in your mind in? Where is the dream? Where is your inner voice? It's not the same spacetime then where the electrical and chemical pulses are in the brain, causing this image or the dream. The image you see in your mind's eye is in a completely different dimension than where the chemistry in the brain is. (Maarten Vergucht) |
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24th April 2015, 07:17 AM | #102 |
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What a silly attempt at a misdirection!
The fact that your posts exist, and can be referenced, and used as a check of the accuracy of memory, means that reports of their content are not, in fact, "eyewitness anecdotes". Were you to claim you had posted something, but it was no longer available, your report of that content, which could no longer be supported, would, in fact, be an "eyewitness anecdote". Please try to understand the difference. |
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"They want to make their molehills equal to the mountains by cutting the mountains down." -turingtest "The universe did not come from nothing, it came from 'We don't know'." -Dancing David "Cry, booga, booga, booga! and let slip the Hamsters of Silly!" -JFDHintze |
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24th April 2015, 07:18 AM | #103 |
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They're reliable evidence that you have made those posts, sure. What else did you think they would be evidence of? Your existence? Ok; but there's no real reason to doubt that anyway, and if someone really wanted to, they could go beyond just the posts for more evidence that you exist. There's a word and a concept you need to grasp, Maartenn- consilience.
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I'm tired of the bombs, tired of the bullets, tired of the crazies on TV; I'm the aviator, a dream's a dream whatever it seems Deep Purple- "The Aviator" Life was a short shelf that came with bookends- Stephen King |
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24th April 2015, 07:27 AM | #104 |
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Thanks for this concept. I didn't know that.
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'Where' is the image in the mind? What 'space' is the image in your mind in? Where is the dream? Where is your inner voice? It's not the same spacetime then where the electrical and chemical pulses are in the brain, causing this image or the dream. The image you see in your mind's eye is in a completely different dimension than where the chemistry in the brain is. (Maarten Vergucht) |
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24th April 2015, 07:42 AM | #105 |
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I'm tired of the bombs, tired of the bullets, tired of the crazies on TV; I'm the aviator, a dream's a dream whatever it seems Deep Purple- "The Aviator" Life was a short shelf that came with bookends- Stephen King |
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25th April 2015, 02:05 AM | #106 |
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Maartenn100:
Now you're back on the straight and narrow, after your attempted dodge was corrected, would you like to answer my question? |
Last edited by Cosmic Yak; 25th April 2015 at 02:14 AM. Reason: Promoted Maartenn100 to 1000: now corrected. |
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10th May 2015, 04:14 AM | #107 |
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Scientists are willing to believe in multiversa, but when someone is talking about 'being an another dimension' (a near death experience), suddenly they don't believe in portals to other dimensions anymore. Because the people who were in other dimensions are no scientists. And because nature forbids scientists to go their with their intstruments.
Just believe in multiversa, and you understand this portal to another realm... |
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'Where' is the image in the mind? What 'space' is the image in your mind in? Where is the dream? Where is your inner voice? It's not the same spacetime then where the electrical and chemical pulses are in the brain, causing this image or the dream. The image you see in your mind's eye is in a completely different dimension than where the chemistry in the brain is. (Maarten Vergucht) |
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10th May 2015, 04:42 AM | #108 |
Illuminator
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Who shows up in this universe?
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"Such reports are usually based on the sighting of something the sighters cannot explain and that they (or someone else on their behalf) explain as representing an interstellar spaceship-often by saying "But what else can it be?" as though thier own ignorance is a decisive factor." Isaac Asimov |
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10th May 2015, 05:07 AM | #109 |
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An out of body experience (seeing from above) is 'existing in a parallel universe' f.e. Physicists who talk about parallel universes suddenly don't except the existence of it when people are talking about being in such a universe. That's not very consistent.
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'Where' is the image in the mind? What 'space' is the image in your mind in? Where is the dream? Where is your inner voice? It's not the same spacetime then where the electrical and chemical pulses are in the brain, causing this image or the dream. The image you see in your mind's eye is in a completely different dimension than where the chemistry in the brain is. (Maarten Vergucht) |
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10th May 2015, 05:30 AM | #110 |
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Be so kind as to provide a specific, concrete, real world example of a "scientist" who "believes" that the Multiverse Theory actually describes reality, who also rejects NDE's as a description of an actual place or state of being. Straw persons need not be raised up.
Be so kind as to support your statement that "nature forbids" investigation of the experiences popularly miscalled "NDEs" (keep your eye on that "D") with "intstruments". Be so kind as to familiarize yourself with the differences between "belief" and "knowledge". Be so kind as to provide practical, physical. non-anecdotal, objective evidence of the existence of "portals" to "another realm" (or, for that matter, of the mere existence of your "other realm". Be so kind as to support your claim that the experiences popularly mis-called OOBEs are evidence of "existing in a parallel universe", especially as described in any rigorous treatment of Multiverse Theory. |
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10th May 2015, 07:15 AM | #111 |
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"If I hadn't believed it with my own mind, I would never have seen it." - thanks sackett "If you stand on a piece of paper, you are indeed closer to the moon." - MRC_Hans "I was a believer. Until I saw it." - Magrat |
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10th May 2015, 01:28 PM | #112 |
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10th May 2015, 04:21 PM | #113 |
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Do you really think you can have knowledge about this? We stare in total darkness about this. We lose everything (when we die) when we get knowledge about this 'dimension' or whatever we want to call The Unknown or The Unseen. Do you think you can understand what's going on during an NDE? I can't understand it. Whatever brain we have, it's been given to us (by Nature) and it will be talken away from us (by Nature).
Skeptic Ginger, remember this: your life (and my life too) is not for eternity. And whatever is beyond this life is hidden for our knowledge. No 'scientific' device can discover this. Scientific devices cannot go there. When we get the opportunity to meet this Light, we are defenseless and naked. No way to get knowledge when it is not been given to you. It reveals itself to us or not. That's not up to us. We may not think that our science is holey and we are immortal with it. There are doors of knowledge which stay closed for our best tools of science. |
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'Where' is the image in the mind? What 'space' is the image in your mind in? Where is the dream? Where is your inner voice? It's not the same spacetime then where the electrical and chemical pulses are in the brain, causing this image or the dream. The image you see in your mind's eye is in a completely different dimension than where the chemistry in the brain is. (Maarten Vergucht) |
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10th May 2015, 05:02 PM | #114 |
Nasty Woman
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Some people believe they have had NDEs and floated above their bodies able to see everything below them. If they actually had, then experiments with hidden messages one can only see from the ceiling down should have proven this was the case by now. No such case has been documented.
It's a fantasy to believe in life after death. But by all means, enjoy yourself. |
10th May 2015, 05:17 PM | #115 |
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I don't know.
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'Where' is the image in the mind? What 'space' is the image in your mind in? Where is the dream? Where is your inner voice? It's not the same spacetime then where the electrical and chemical pulses are in the brain, causing this image or the dream. The image you see in your mind's eye is in a completely different dimension than where the chemistry in the brain is. (Maarten Vergucht) |
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10th May 2015, 05:42 PM | #116 |
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10th May 2015, 06:03 PM | #117 |
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Maybe there is a bigger picture then our lives here on Earth. And this possibility (of a bigger picture) must be considered too. Science is a human invention. Science is not reality. Science cannot explain consciousness (very well). In my op!nion: there is a much bigger picture of things, and we have only a little scoop.
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'Where' is the image in the mind? What 'space' is the image in your mind in? Where is the dream? Where is your inner voice? It's not the same spacetime then where the electrical and chemical pulses are in the brain, causing this image or the dream. The image you see in your mind's eye is in a completely different dimension than where the chemistry in the brain is. (Maarten Vergucht) |
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11th May 2015, 12:10 AM | #118 |
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11th May 2015, 12:16 AM | #119 |
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You have a propensity for religious thinking, attempting to fill gaping holes in even your basic understanding of the natural world around you.
The most important message your written thoughts display is not so much how little you know (although they do) but how little you want to learn. |
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11th May 2015, 06:51 AM | #120 |
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We do not have to fill up the blanks with wishful fantasies.
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