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Old 22nd August 2015, 03:18 PM   #441
Jodie
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What he actually said was this:

"A human being is a part of the whole called by us "the universe," a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feelings, as something separate from the rest - a kind of optical illusion of consciousness. This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and affection for a few persons nearest to us. Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening the circle of understanding and compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole of nature in its beauty." - Albert Einstein
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Old 22nd August 2015, 03:25 PM   #442
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I'm after the source. Is it a translation?

I've read that it might have been part of a consoling letter to a bereaved father.

I've also read that:


Quote:
I looked it up for you, and yes it's Einstein's words, from a letter he wrote to someone regarding death.
But the part beginning "This delusion..." is from another work, totally unrelated to the first part. They have been stuck together for some reason here.
post by "James the Giant" : (on Wed Jan 09, 2013)

http://webcache.googleusercontent.co...&ct=clnk&gl=us

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Old 22nd August 2015, 03:32 PM   #443
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visiting this silly thread after a considerable absence, I have an anecdote, because last week I was taking a long flight home, a little bit under the weather, and on the plane I succumbed to sleep as I often do, but this time it was for quite some time the sort of hypnagogic sleep usually fleeting. I dreamed my body was doing things it was not, drifted outside the usual boundaries, and dreamed that I was floating above the scene. I'm sure glad I didn't finish dying so close to the finish line!
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Old 22nd August 2015, 03:42 PM   #444
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Probably just turbulence in your case.
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Old 22nd August 2015, 03:42 PM   #445
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Originally Posted by Jodie View Post
The rats were seeing something, not hallucinating or imagining, and they were trying to figure out what it was they were looking at.

If it happens to them then chances are something similar happens to humans during an NDE.
...
Unfortunately, the article doesn't detail how increased brain activity in rats at time of death is subject to external stimuli. Nor is any such stimuli identified.


Originally Posted by Jodie View Post
... There is evidence all around us and within us that life exists, ...
Sure, enough evidence that life itself exists, but no evidence whatsoever for non corporeal consciousness.


Only belief.
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Old 22nd August 2015, 03:48 PM   #446
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Originally Posted by Jodie View Post
What remains after we die and isn't limited by our physical senses.


From too much love of living, From hope and fear set free, We thank with brief thanksgiving Whatever gods may be That no life lives for ever; That dead men rise up never; That even the weariest river Winds somewhere safe to sea.

Algernon Charles Swinburne
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Old 22nd August 2015, 03:55 PM   #447
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Originally Posted by Donn View Post
Do you not "see" when you dream? Or do you think there's really a tiny film-set being erected in your head with live-action actors that you can see?
Evidently the brain uses different neural pathways when you actually see something versus dream it.



Quote:
I too don't get this fascination with the near part.

Is the idea that the closer the mind gets to death, the more it sees into mystical realms beyond? How could that even be tested for, controlled? It's bizarre.
The thread is about near death experiences. That was my question exactly, I don't think you can use your own physical senses to literally see to the other side, however, the rats and people were seeing something. I'm assuming the recall for that "something" was subjective because all stories differ and you are trying to assimilate something we have no frame of reference for here on earth.



Quote:
Because right now, we're just getting in evolution's way. Wut?
No, but evolution does us no favors when mutations result in brain disorders that have genetic components such as autism and schizophrenia. There was a mutation on the ASPM allele, related to microcephaly, that some think is related to the development of civilization since it occurred and spread rapidly about the time civilization started to advance. If we can create synthetic genetic code, that opens up the possibility for therapies to correct the bad mutations or enhance what we already have that is successful.

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See the difference is that his hypotheses were taken and tested repeatedly against the factual world and gradually emerged as theory which works.
The evidence might be there but we don't know where to look. It will take some type of insight like Einstein's to point us in the right direction for developing a universal theory which would include eternal life, probably not in the way any of us expect.

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Old 22nd August 2015, 04:00 PM   #448
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Originally Posted by Jodie View Post
.... It will take some type of insight like Einstein's ...
Not really, it'll take an actual phenomenon.
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Old 22nd August 2015, 04:11 PM   #449
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It depends on the person, for me, it didn't.
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Old 22nd August 2015, 04:16 PM   #450
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Originally Posted by Jodie View Post
It depends on the person, for me, it didn't.
Then you can not show that your belief that you are pointing in the right direction would be correct.

This kind of thing certainly depends on the person
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Old 22nd August 2015, 06:37 PM   #451
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I was only explaining how I synthesized what research is out there to arrive at what I believe. It's going to take someone light years ahead of me in "smarts" to provide the kind of evidence/proof that a skeptic would need to accept the possibility.
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Old 22nd August 2015, 07:10 PM   #452
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Originally Posted by Jodie View Post
Probably just turbulence in your case.
Or flatulence!!! Sometimes for some people those are only distinguishable by the odour.
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Old 23rd August 2015, 01:39 AM   #453
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Originally Posted by Jodie View Post
I was only explaining how I synthesized what research is out there to arrive at what I believe. It's going to take someone light years ahead of me in "smarts" to provide the kind of evidence/proof that a skeptic would need to accept the possibility.
It's unfortunate that you can't synthesize words to arrive at a description of what you believe.
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Old 23rd August 2015, 02:02 AM   #454
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Originally Posted by Jodie View Post
I was only explaining how I synthesized what research is out there to arrive at what I believe. ...
The research you linked to does not show support for your belief in an afterife.


Originally Posted by Jodie View Post
... It's going to take someone light years ahead of me in "smarts" to provide the kind of evidence/proof that a skeptic would need to accept the possibility.
No, again, it's going to require an actual phenomenon.
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Old 23rd August 2015, 08:29 AM   #455
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There will never be a way to "see" the phenomena with our physical brains. The existence of an afterlife, pro or con, could only be intuited based on what new discoveries are made and what hypotheses are postulated that are proven to be true. What other kind of phenomena did you have in mind?
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Old 23rd August 2015, 08:46 AM   #456
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Originally Posted by Jodie View Post
There will never be a way to "see" the phenomena with our physical brains.
What phenomena?
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Old 23rd August 2015, 09:11 AM   #457
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As I see it we are discussing the idea of something existing that would be indistinguishable from it not existing. That is a serious problem for evaluating the existence of that thing in particular. More so, such a concept also removes all constraints- if there is no evidence of something existing, how do you know it doesn't exist? Perhaps interesting from a philosophical perspective for some, but it doesn't seem like anything that one should bet on when planning one's life, or what to do after death.
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Old 23rd August 2015, 09:29 AM   #458
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It's Narnia in the wardrobe. From all study, it's a plain wooden backing; nothing special. Many who step in come out babbling fantastic tales of the other side. Who can say what they see?

There's not much else in the wardrobe; a dearth of clothes on hangers; a near dearth experience, then, and Narnia is come.

Science cannot help us here. Narnia is real, but real is not real unless you get real about the reality of the super-real.

Besides, what is a wardrobe divided by three? How can you compute that without a soul?
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Old 23rd August 2015, 10:45 AM   #459
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Originally Posted by Jodie View Post
There will never be a way to "see" the phenomena with our physical brains. The existence of an afterlife, pro or con, could only be intuited based on what new discoveries are made and what hypotheses are postulated that are proven to be true. What other kind of phenomena did you have in mind?
How would you prove the hypotheses true without phenomena to observe?
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Old 23rd August 2015, 11:39 AM   #460
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Originally Posted by Jodie View Post
There will never be a way to "see" the phenomena with our physical brains. The existence of an afterlife, pro or con, could only be intuited based on what new discoveries are made and what hypotheses are postulated that are proven to be true. What other kind of phenomena did you have in mind?
So, only claims for it can exist.
Indirect claims at that. And belief.

Not another one, the one which is the subject here, non corporeal consciousness or the survival of consciousness or in other words, the claimed afterlife.
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Old 23rd August 2015, 11:45 AM   #461
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Originally Posted by Jodie View Post
There will never be a way to "see" the phenomena with our physical brains. ...
But that's not what you appear to believe in this post:
Originally Posted by Jodie View Post
Originally Posted by Daylightstar View Post
On what basis would you then believe there is an afterlife?
I have seen a few things that defy explanation based on what we know or accept as reality. I even started a thread about it here on the forum. Most of them were debunked, a couple of the explanations for the phenomena didn't fit.
...
..... then there can be no ghosts in your anecdotes or your anecdotes can be no basis for your belief in an afterlife.
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Old 23rd August 2015, 04:24 PM   #462
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Originally Posted by Jodie View Post
The rats were seeing something, not hallucinating or imagining, and they were trying to figure out what it was they were looking at.

If it happens to them then chances are something similar happens to humans during an NDE.

There is NO evidence whatsoever anywhere to tell you what rats see at any time let alone after they have been euthanized with KCl to the heart. You have absolutely no basis for claiming that rats are seeing something, or hallucinating at any time, and to suggest that you KNOW they were trying to "figure out what they were seeing" is the height of fantasy. There is nothing in that article suggesting what you say,. In fact the authors believe their results show that there is some possible basis for suggesting that the human brain, even after cardiac arrest and EEG "flatline" could actually be generating dreams.

You are piling misinterpretation on fantasy and then claiming that your conclusion is based in reality.
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Old 23rd August 2015, 07:05 PM   #463
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There are several articles regarding that study so let me find the one that talks about the brain activity of the rats.

http://phenomena.nationalgeographic....consciousness/

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Old 23rd August 2015, 08:24 PM   #464
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Originally Posted by Jodie View Post
I was only explaining how I synthesized what research is out there to arrive at what I believe...
No, you are merely cherry picking Google search results that you think will prop up your existing belief or want to believe. To imply that that you first read scientific research to arrive at your conclusion is disingenuous of you, considering this post;
Originally Posted by Jodie View Post
...I'm having a similar discussion elsewhere about life after death, I fully admit it's based on belief alone.
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Old 24th August 2015, 01:27 AM   #465
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Originally Posted by Jodie View Post
There are several articles regarding that study so let me find the one that talks about the brain activity of the rats.

http://phenomena.nationalgeographic....consciousness/
Is that the one?
No evidence or distant indication whatsoever for the existence of non corporeal consciousness; the claimed afterlife.

Nothing.
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Old 24th August 2015, 05:48 AM   #466
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Originally Posted by Jodie View Post
There are several articles regarding that study so let me find the one that talks about the brain activity of the rats.

http://phenomena.nationalgeographic....consciousness/

The fifth paragraph of this article:

"But Borjigin’s research suggests that these experiences could just be a natural product of a dying brain. That doesn’t make them any less real, but it does root them in the natural world, without the need for a “super-“ prefix."

Even this secondary source gets it right. You are persistently misinterpreting these results.

Please note "could just be"; this is a provisional interpretation.

Also, there is no one anywhere who can tell you when a rat is "seeing" vs "imagining", or "trying to figure out" based on EEG recordings, or any other information, other than their own imaginations.
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Old 24th August 2015, 07:57 AM   #467
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Originally Posted by Jodie View Post
When people have near death experiences, what is seen in the brain indicates that they are not imagining, but are actually viewing something.
You mean just as happens when they're dreaming?

Quote:
I don't think your personality or sense of individual self survives death.
OK, so what does survive death, that doesn't have conscious thought, the senses, personality, and individual self? and in what sense is it 'you' without those aspects?
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Old 24th August 2015, 08:07 AM   #468
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Originally Posted by Jodie View Post
The rats were seeing something, not hallucinating or imagining, and they were trying to figure out what it was they were looking at.
I couldn't see that in the article - care to quote the relevant text?

What I did see was that the conclusion was, "These neurophysiological changes may very well be the cause of the near-death experiences people often report". Note the use of the word 'cause'.

Move along now, nothing to see here.
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Old 24th August 2015, 09:36 AM   #469
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Originally Posted by Jodie View Post
The rats were seeing something, not hallucinating or imagining, and they were trying to figure out what it was they were looking at.

If it happens to them then chances are something similar happens to humans during an NDE.

There is evidence all around us and within us that life exists, but we couldn't take the molecules that make up a simple organism and create life until now:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/scie...aying-god.html

Eventually we can control the modifications needed to enhance our brains to facilitate evolution. If the afterlife exists, it will probably be found the way Einstein imagined his theories.

Einstein says it better than I do, so far I see nothing contradictory in believing life is eternal:

http://sillysutras.com/2011/01/https...reincarnation/
So heaven is full of rats? I had read somewhere that rats were everywhere, but I hoping to escape them by going to heaven.
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Old 24th August 2015, 09:40 AM   #470
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Originally Posted by MuDPhuD View Post
The fifth paragraph of this article:

"But Borjigin’s research suggests that these experiences could just be a natural product of a dying brain. That doesn’t make them any less real, but it does root them in the natural world, without the need for a “super-“ prefix."

Even this secondary source gets it right. You are persistently misinterpreting these results.

Please note "could just be"; this is a provisional interpretation.

Also, there is no one anywhere who can tell you when a rat is "seeing" vs "imagining", or "trying to figure out" based on EEG recordings, or any other information, other than their own imaginations.
I'm not arguing that the NDE isn't a product of physiology. I think you are ignoring the fact that the sudden spike occurs after blood flow ceases and glucose is not available to fuel any kind of brain activity. I agree with the provisional interpretation.
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Old 24th August 2015, 09:42 AM   #471
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Originally Posted by Son of Inigo View Post
So heaven is full of rats? I had read somewhere that rats were everywhere, but I hoping to escape them by going to heaven.
There is no heaven in my theology. No living thing will be what it was here after it sheds the mortal coil.
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Old 24th August 2015, 09:43 AM   #472
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Originally Posted by EHocking View Post
No, you are merely cherry picking Google search results that you think will prop up your existing belief or want to believe. To imply that that you first read scientific research to arrive at your conclusion is disingenuous of you, considering this post;
I did, and I came to the same conclusion even though you think it's incorrect.
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Old 24th August 2015, 09:45 AM   #473
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Originally Posted by MuDPhuD View Post
There is NO evidence whatsoever anywhere to tell you what rats see at any time let alone after they have been euthanized with KCl to the heart. You have absolutely no basis for claiming that rats are seeing something, or hallucinating at any time, and to suggest that you KNOW they were trying to "figure out what they were seeing" is the height of fantasy. There is nothing in that article suggesting what you say,. In fact the authors believe their results show that there is some possible basis for suggesting that the human brain, even after cardiac arrest and EEG "flatline" could actually be generating dreams.

You are piling misinterpretation on fantasy and then claiming that your conclusion is based in reality.
I see that many of you are also cherry picking what you want to believe, and there's nothing wrong with that when nothing definitive has been found.
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Old 24th August 2015, 09:45 AM   #474
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Originally Posted by Jodie View Post
I'm not arguing that the NDE isn't a product of physiology. I think you are ignoring the fact that the sudden spike occurs after blood flow ceases and glucose is not available to fuel any kind of brain activity. I agree with the provisional interpretation.
Since there is no valid indication for these experiences being anything but a product of the dying brain .....
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Old 24th August 2015, 09:47 AM   #475
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Originally Posted by Jodie View Post
There is no heaven in my theology. No living thing will be what it was here after it sheds the mortal coil.
There is no evidence for anything to shed the mortal coil.
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Old 24th August 2015, 09:49 AM   #476
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Originally Posted by Jodie View Post
I see that many of you are also cherry picking what you want to believe, and there's nothing wrong with that when nothing definitive has been found.
The articles you quote detail a physical source for the NDE, nothing else evidenced or even indicated.
There is no detailing possible of the non corporeal consciousness or the afterlife.
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Old 24th August 2015, 09:50 AM   #477
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Ha!

"There's no evidence that pigs can fly."
"Ah-ha! You're just cherry picking that since nothing definitive has been found."

Pure fly fishing.
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Old 24th August 2015, 09:56 AM   #478
Belz...
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Originally Posted by Jodie View Post
Non available data, or evidence, doesn't mean it's not there.
It does until you can show that it's there.
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Old 24th August 2015, 10:03 AM   #479
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Originally Posted by Jodie View Post
I have seen a few things that defy explanation based on what we know or accept as reality.
And? What do you think this proves?

A) What we know of reality is wrong and we have to change physics
B) You're wrong about what you experienced.

I know which of those explanations is simpler and best fits the facts.

Quote:
The brain is necessary for conscious thought here on earth.
I'll say. But this opens two questions:

A) Do you have any evidence of conscious thought anywhere else?
B) Why do nonfunctional brains produce NO THOUGHT whatsoever? When you're temporarily dead, you don't find yourself elsewhere. In fact there is no passage of time at all between shut-down and start-up. This clashes with your belief.

Quote:
What remains after we die and isn't limited by our physical senses.
There is absolutely no need to posit the existence of something like this, except that you don't want to die. I don't want to die, either.

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There will never be a way to "see" the phenomena with our physical brains.
That makes your claim impossible to prove or disprove, meaning you can safely claim it. But it's silly. Why would you believe something that is logically impossible to prove?
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Old 24th August 2015, 10:27 AM   #480
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To answer your first two questions. I don't think it proves physics to be wrong, just incomplete. In most things I was wrong but not in all of them.

I have no evidence, no one does, but it doesn't mean it's not there. Your wrong in what you think you know about the dying process. They haven't found a definite stop point and this continues to be a legal issue for those that want the option for euthanasia or when to remove life support.

As for not wanting to die, if I'm dead I won't know the difference. If some kind of existence continues I'm sure the challenges will be greater than what we experience here on earth during this "life" time. What I want will be irrelevant either way.

Why would I believe something that can't be proven? I rely more on my sense of intuition rather than any other faculty.
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