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Old 27th November 2020, 12:32 PM   #81
autumn1971
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
But why would that be a travesty of justice? Why do we, as members of western society, regard it in aggregate rather than two different duties?

I get that people aggregate it, but I don't know why.
It is the duty of a soldier to refuse unlawful orders. ROE are clear.
It is also the duty of any citizen to expose violations of laws.
There is a balance that doesnít exist in your philosophy, but does for pretty much every other human.
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Old 27th November 2020, 12:53 PM   #82
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Originally Posted by autumn1971 View Post
It is the duty of a soldier to refuse unlawful orders. ROE are clear.
It is also the duty of any citizen to expose violations of laws.
There is a balance that doesnít exist in your philosophy, but does for pretty much every other human.
What are you talking about? Of course a soldier should disobey an unlawful order. Then they should be punished for disobeying an order while getting praised for their disobeying.
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Old 27th November 2020, 02:26 PM   #83
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
What are you talking about? Of course a soldier should disobey an unlawful order. Then they should be punished for disobeying an order while getting praised for their disobeying.
This is nonsense. If an order is unlawful, you should not be punished for disobeying it. In fact, technically, itís not an order.

Furthermore, in a society governed by by the rule of law, you want to know when the law is broken, so you do not punish people who expose unlawful behaviour.
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Old 27th November 2020, 04:30 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by jeremyp View Post
This is nonsense. If an order is unlawful, you should not be punished for disobeying it. In fact, technically, itís not an order.

Furthermore, in a society governed by by the rule of law, you want to know when the law is broken, so you do not punish people who expose unlawful behaviour.
A person still has a duty to expose unlawful behavior even if they will be punished for violating a different duty. You don't need to not punish them for the latter.
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Old 27th November 2020, 06:40 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
What are you talking about? Of course a soldier should disobey an unlawful order. Then they should be punished for disobeying an order while getting praised for their disobeying.
You remind me of Stannis Baratheon.
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Old 27th November 2020, 06:58 PM   #86
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
Do you want to live in a world ruled by law or one where prosecutors can ignore crimes when it suits them?
Actually--yes, I think so. If they do so transparently, and if they are accountable for their own decisions, I think a prosecutor should be able to drop a case if they think it is unconscionable even if the law doesn't accommodate the situation well.

Quote:
Deter doesn't actually mean "absolutely prevent". We do want to deter this behavior. We certainly don't want people doing what this guy did on a whim.

When doing something like this you should have to consider that your actions are going to get a hard looking at. Making the case that he did the right thing in front of a court is probably exactly the right venue. It seems like too much discretion for prosecutors to be wielding.

If, hypothetically, at the end of the process he gets convicted because the law doesn't allow a "right thing" defense and it still appears to be a travesty of justice then that's for legislatures and pardon processes to fix.
I am absolutely fine with him having to justify his actions and facing consequences if he chose wrongly. And a pardon would be an acceptable outcome.

I am arguing against the moral charge that he should be punished for violating his duty, when he did so for justifiable reasons.
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Old 27th November 2020, 07:00 PM   #87
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I am reminded of a story I read in the Star Wars universe. An Imperial fleet was on its way to bombard a planet because its governor was disobeying the Emperor. The population revolted, overthrew their governor, and surrendered to the approaching fleet--who bombarded them for overthrowing their governor.
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Old 28th November 2020, 06:28 AM   #88
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Did they give a reason why they did it? Shared complicity?
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Old 28th November 2020, 11:36 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Did they give a reason why they did it? Shared complicity?
"Rule of law." Overthrowing your duly appointed governor was a crime against the Empire.
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Old 28th November 2020, 11:43 AM   #90
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Originally Posted by gnome View Post
"Rule of law." Overthrowing your duly appointed governor was a crime against the Empire.
I wasn't talking about star wars
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Old 29th November 2020, 06:20 PM   #91
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China and Russia have stepped up to condemn the actions of the Australian soldiers and call for holding them accountable.

I mean yeah definitely. But it's a bit rich to have this coming from two of the worst abusers of human rights in the world.

ETA Link: https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-11-...rimes/12933224
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Old 29th November 2020, 09:42 PM   #92
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Haha! That is funny.

Obviously no word for "hypocrite" in Russian or Chinese.
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Old 29th November 2020, 09:45 PM   #93
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The tweet from China has caused a bit of a stir, with some very strongly-worded comments made in Parliament today.

Except for Scotty's comments which were made over Zoom from his isolation in the Lodge.
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Old 29th November 2020, 11:26 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
The tweet from China has caused a bit of a stir, with some very strongly-worded comments made in Parliament today.

Except for Scotty's comments which were made over Zoom from his isolation in the Lodge.
Hang on a moment, Morrison can criticise China at will over anything, but China canít criticise Australian military atrocities?

Hypocrit.
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Old 29th November 2020, 11:33 PM   #95
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Hang on a moment, Morrison can criticise China at will over anything, but China canít criticise Australian military atrocities?

Hypocrit.
More like the entire world has been criticising China for longterm and ongoing human rights abuses - they have a lot of gall calling this out in the way they did.

And did you see the image attached to the tweet by a Chinese government official? It was pretty awful.
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Old 29th November 2020, 11:54 PM   #96
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
China and Russia have stepped up to condemn the actions of the Australian soldiers and call for holding them accountable.

I mean yeah definitely. But it's a bit rich to have this coming from two of the worst abusers of human rights in the world.

ETA Link: https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-11-...rimes/12933224
Yeah, but hello... aboriginals in custody, Australia.

I think it's good that all these countries are airing each others' dirty laundry.

China, I know, has brought to light the conditions in their own factories and put in measures to have them up to ethical standards.


In Switzerland, they're voting on making "Swiss businesses financially and legally liable for human rights violations or environmental damage" and voting on a bill "to forbid Swiss financial institutions from investing in any form of arms production, from nuclear weapons all the way down to bullets".

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-55088585

Not sure if the Brereton Report would have influenced that, though. But I think it's all going with the times.
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Old 30th November 2020, 01:17 AM   #97
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Originally Posted by Orphia Nay View Post
Yeah, but hello... aboriginals in custody, Australia.
I'll call and give you refugees for 10.
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Old 30th November 2020, 08:28 AM   #98
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Hang on a moment, Morrison can criticise China at will over anything, but China canít criticise Australian military atrocities?
Scumo is just talking for the votes but I suspect the Chinese government has a much bigger agenda.
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Old 1st December 2020, 01:25 AM   #99
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
I'll call and give you refugees for 10.
Indeed.

Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Scumo is just talking for the votes but I suspect the Chinese government has a much bigger agenda.
They both have big agendas. Trade is on them.

They don't like the way Australia scratches the US's back and not theirs.

They are putting the pressure on with their 100% tax on Australian wine.
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Old 2nd December 2020, 01:42 AM   #100
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This isn't a good look for Aussie troops: https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...prosthetic-leg

I just hope they gave it a good wash first.
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Old 2nd December 2020, 04:05 AM   #101
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
This isn't a good look for Aussie troops: https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...prosthetic-leg

I just hope they gave it a good wash first.
Shameful. We deserve the condemnation we are getting.
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Old 2nd December 2020, 04:37 PM   #102
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Shameful. We deserve the condemnation we are getting.
We're also getting support though. The US, the UK, New Zealand and Germany have all expressed support because we are actively dealing with this terrible situation and initiating corrective measures.
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Old 2nd December 2020, 05:13 PM   #103
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
What are you talking about? Of course a soldier should disobey an unlawful order. Then they should be punished for disobeying an order while getting praised for their disobeying.
That's perverse.

What actually happens is that the order is presumed to be lawful and the disobedient soldier has the burden of proving that it was unlawful. If he meets the burden, then he is acquitted of any crime, since he committed no crime.
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Old Yesterday, 12:51 PM   #104
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
We're also getting support though. ... New Zealand ...
Good to see us putting history over money - the ANZAC spirit still lives.

We'd been very cautious on China and had long avoided getting involved in the China-Aussie spat that's been going on for a while now.

But fake photos of our digger pals at your yellow peril!

I have to admit that I was a little surprised to see an official intervention on it - NZ First, the now-departed coalition partner - was always the pro-army voice in this gov't, but good play to them, they didn't miss the opportunity to back Aussie.

In spite of the second-class status we're officially held in.
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Old Yesterday, 03:53 PM   #105
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Yes, I saw a statement earlier that NZ "wasn't taking sides", but a later article listed NZ as one of the countries who had issued a statement of support.
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Old Yesterday, 03:59 PM   #106
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Yes, I saw a statement earlier that NZ "wasn't taking sides", but a later article listed NZ as one of the countries who had issued a statement of support.
Not only that, there was a direct response to China as well, which they've objected to with surprise.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/pol...ralian-soldier

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/pol...ralian-soldier
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Old Yesterday, 06:22 PM   #107
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Not only that, there was a direct response to China as well, which they've objected to with surprise.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/pol...ralian-soldier

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/pol...ralian-soldier
Thanks for that.
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