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Tags Coronavirus , Sweden incidents , Sweden issues

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Old Yesterday, 03:24 AM   #1681
Rolfe
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I read about that. That ship is jinxed. First it wasn't ready in time and friends of mine missed their cruise. Then it was ready and all set to go and a bunch of passengers (including my friends) had their luggage stolen in Santiago on the way to join the ship at Punta Arenas. Now this.

Aren't Norwegians supposed to quarantine at home after coming back from certain countries?
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Old Yesterday, 04:14 AM   #1682
The Don
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
I read about that. That ship is jinxed. First it wasn't ready in time and friends of mine missed their cruise. Then it was ready and all set to go and a bunch of passengers (including my friends) had their luggage stolen in Santiago on the way to join the ship at Punta Arenas. Now this.

Aren't Norwegians supposed to quarantine at home after coming back from certain countries?
Sounds like it:

Quote:
Anyone returning from an international travel outside areas in Schengen/EEA countries with an acceptably low level of infection, must stay in quarantine for 10 days after the date of their return to Norway. This is referred to as travel quarantine.
https://helsenorge.no/koronavirus/travel-advice
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Old Yesterday, 04:15 AM   #1683
dann
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Originally Posted by Gavin View Post
Georgia was the only state on my list with less deaths Stockholm as well as the rest of Sweden has flattened the curve and why he is saying they reached herd immunity I would rather take a locale doctor’s opinion then someone not in the medical field.

I feared that you wouldn't get the point, and you didn't. Why do you think I mentioned the number of infections in Stockholm according to the Swedish doctor in the context of your 82,323 cases? Since you have confidence in the Swedish doctor, you should compare the number of infections based on his idea of 50 percent of the inhabitants of Stockholm having had the virus, with Sweden's 82,323 confirmed cases. It doesn't really add up, does it?!

Quote:
The report, which has not been peer-reviewed, found that during the period of February 24 to June 14, there were 1,124 confirmed cases of COVID-19 among children in Sweden, around 0.05% of the total number of children aged 1-19.
Finland recorded 584 cases in the same period, also equivalent to around 0.05%.
“In conclusion, (the) closure or not of schools had no measurable direct impact on the number of laboratory confirmed cases in school-aged children in Finland or Sweden,” the agencies said in the report, published last week.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-h...-idUSKCN24G2IS

Again you don't consider that these numbers are totally unreliable unless you consider that Sweden didn't really start testing anybody until the school year was over. Until then, only people being hospitalized (and maybe staff) stood a chance of getting tested, and since children in general are less likely than adults to get severe symptoms "the number of laboratory confirmed cases" in Sweden is ******* useless!

Quote:
They also flatten curve

https://thefederalist.com/2020/07/22...g-coronavirus/

In fact, the report found that it was extremely rare for children to bring an infection into the home. It found that just 2.7 percent of potential “index cases” (first case in the home) were under age 20. Imagine twisting that into a call for school closures. It’s astonishingly reckless.
https://thefederalist.com/2020/07/22...g-coronavirus/

I think you should check out where you find the articles to back up your apologetics:

Quote:
On March 26th, 2020 Twitter locked the site’s account for violating its rules against spreading misinformation about the coronavirus.
(...)
The Federalist has also promoted pseudoscience claiming that there is a link between Abortions and Breast Cancer. According to the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists there is “no causal relationship between induced abortion and a subsequent increase in breast cancer risk.”
(...)
Overall, we rate The Federalist a borderline Questionable and far Right Biased based on story selection and editorial positions that always favor the right. We also rate them Mixed for factual reporting due to the promotion pseudoscience and three failed fact checks. (8/8/2016) Updated (D. Van Zandt 03/30/2020)
The Federalist (Media Bias Fact Check)

Better luck next time.

Quote:
Denmark only had all on voluntary basis and only had Cases: 14,815 Deaths: 620

Denmark only had what on voluntary basis??? I am aware that Denmark has had far fewer cases than Sweden; far fewer, actually, than you can only dream of since Sweden only started testing very recently and therefore doesn't have any reliable numbers from the time when the virus peaked in the country.

Total tests - Tests per million:
#12 Denmark Total: 1,755,433; per million: 302,948
#53 Sweden Total: 863,315; per million 85,424


Quote:
there are ways to do so without lockdowns was the whole point and their schools have been opened since the first of June and they have had no problems school closure was the only change from Sweden besides the closed borders
And masks! Don't forget about masks! I am sure that there are more differences than closed schools, closed borders and masks, three things that Tegnell objects to, but there's no reason to go into the details any further than this. It goes to show that Japan took measures that Sweden didn't, and they appear to have made all the difference.
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"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

Last edited by dann; Yesterday at 04:20 AM.
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Old Yesterday, 04:35 AM   #1684
dann
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
Aren't Norwegians supposed to quarantine at home after coming back from certain countries?

From most countries, I think, and maybe parts of Denmark, too, in the very near future:
Norsk sundhedsstyrelse: Dele af Danmark bør gøres til ’rødt område’ (DR.dk, Aug. 10, 2020)
Norwegian Public Health Agency: Some regions of Denmark should be changed into ’red areas’


Recent rise in number of cases in Denmark
The majority of new cases in the recent flare ups in Denmark were immigrants or descendants of recent immigrants:
70 procent af de smittede i sidste uge har anden etnisk herkomst end dansk (TV2.dk, Aug. 11, 2020)
70 percent of the cases of infection last week have ethnic backgrounds other than Danish

It is the picture we see all over the world: People who aren't able to work online from home, bus drivers, cab drivers, shop assistants, care workers, maybe in crowded living spaces and dependent on public transport, are the ones who get infected.
But one of the Danish political parties hostile to immigrants, Dansk Folkeparti, is convinced that 'undanish' behaviour at funerals is the problem:


’Rystet’ over smittebombe blandt indvandrere: Vil sætte ind mod begravelser (BT, Aug. 10, 2020)
’Shocked’ by bomb of contagion in the immigrant community: Will do something about funerals

The text makes it fairly obvious that they would like a law specifically about Muslim funerals, but since they can't get that, they'll have to go for one against a certain kind of behaviour at all funerals.
I don't remember them having any objections against the affluent Danes who brought the virus back from their holidays in the Alps, but I could be mistaken about that.
They might also consider PPE and other preventive measures for all frontline workers, Danes as well as those of other ethnicities, but that is probably beyond them.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

Last edited by dann; Yesterday at 04:37 AM.
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Old Yesterday, 04:53 AM   #1685
dann
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Originally Posted by Clutch Cargo View Post
Correct me if I am wrong but isn't the theory (or proven fact) all about those who are immune NOT INFECTING OTHERS?

If you are immune to a disease, you don't have it. If you had it, you won't get again unless the immunity is only temporary. Little is known yet about SARS-CoV-2 in this respect, but so far people don't seem to get it twice. But the disease is still young.

Quote:
When Europeans went to the new world they were immune to many diseases but it didn't prevent them from either 1. themselves infecting the indigenous population or 2. bringing with them the diseases to which they were immune?.

When Europeans went to the new world(s), there was only immunity acquired through infections. So when they infected indigenous populations with the measles, smallpox, chicken pox etc., it must have been because enough of them weren't immune and infected each other on the way there until their arrival when somebody with the infection transmitted it to the local population.
Not to be confused with asymptomatic carriers (Wiki) of a disease like Typhoid Mary (Wiki), who had the infection (so she couldn't exactly be described as immune) but didn't come down with the actual disease.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old Yesterday, 05:09 AM   #1686
Ulf Nereng
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
I read about that. That ship is jinxed. First it wasn't ready in time and friends of mine missed their cruise. Then it was ready and all set to go and a bunch of passengers (including my friends) had their luggage stolen in Santiago on the way to join the ship at Punta Arenas. Now this.

Aren't Norwegians supposed to quarantine at home after coming back from certain countries?
Apparently the rules are different on ships that are registered in an international register instead of a Norwegian one. Those of Hurtigruten's ships that sail to Svalbard and other places outside of Norway proper are registered in NIS which is an international register. The rest are registered in NOR, which is a national one. Those registered in NIS typically have low-paid staff from the Phillipines while the rest have unionized Norwegian staff.

The ship nevertheless broke the rules it was sailing under. It should have gone to the nearest port once they knew they had a pandemic onboard and quarantined there while informing local authorities. They also broke the very old rule that says they should have hoisted a yellow flag, That's from the age of sails, but it still applies.

One of the executives of the company has been suspended pending an investigation by the company's board. The police have also started an investigation.

IMO the captain and the entire board should be keel-hauled and hung from the mizzen-mast provided sucha a mast can be found!
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Old Yesterday, 07:04 AM   #1687
Rolfe
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I'm gradually realising why the management of the cruise I was on last year behaved as if nothing at all was happening when a significant proportion of the passengers on a 10-week voyage went down with a respiratory infection. It wasn't anything serious although a number of people needed antibiotic treatment. It was widespread enough that I thought they should have been sending swabs to Santiago or somewhere to identify the cause, and advising passengers how to avoid transmission. But they said not a word and the crew just went on obsessively sanitising all the handrails. I imagine they were concerned the ship might have been placed under some sort of restrictions if they'd done anything to acknowledge they had a wee bit of an epidemic going on.
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Old Yesterday, 08:08 AM   #1688
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Certainly different here. My wife and I were on a Nat. Geo. ship doing Patagonia when Chile closed and we had to turn around and circle around the Falklands for a week. It was a small ship (about 100 passengers) and nobody was sick. Everything was as normal except that we couldn't land, so we circled around and watched whales and whatnot until they set up the charter flight to Miami. In the meantime we were living and dining in style. Best quarantine ever.

We're a little apprehensive because we were scheduled to go this coming winter to the Seychelles and Madgascar, and part of that trip is hosted by a Swedish company. They're good, but they're Swedish, which means they may approach things differently and go ahead with it. Parts hosted by others, including flights, have been cancelled, but they haven't and if they don't we'll end up eating the cost.
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Old Yesterday, 09:05 AM   #1689
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The ship we were on last year circumnavigating South America was circumnavigating Africa in January/March this year. I don't know how many ports they ended up missing out but they made it back to Bristol safe without any virus on board.

Two of the other ships belonging to the same company were in the South China Sea at the time. The first plan, to dock in Taiwan and fly the passengers home, was thwarted by Taiwan refusing to take any cruise ships. In the end the ships did an at-sea rendezvous and transfered all the antipodean crew and passengers to one vessel and all the Europeans to the other, using the tenders. One then hopped to Fremantle and dropped the Aussies, Kiwis, Filipinos and so on before returning to Tilbury with a skeleton crew only. The other one sailed back to Tilbury through the Suez Canal with the European passengers and crew, without berthing anywhere (I gather the ship was provisioned at sea from time to time).

There was an online video entitled "Columbus repatriation voyage" showing the passengers sunning themselves and the entertainments staff dreaming up new shows. I guess worse things happen at sea.
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Old Yesterday, 09:24 AM   #1690
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
..... I am aware that Denmark has had far fewer cases than Sweden; far fewer, actually, than you can only dream of .... since Sweden only started testing very recently and therefore doesn't have any reliable numbers from the time when the virus peaked in the country.
Sweden has approximately double the population.

Originally Posted by dann View Post
... Sweden only started testing very recently .....
We still are not testing really. We can test for antibodies at the Apotek at a price and I don't know if it is included in "Högkostnadsskydd" reductions. Probably not.

Originally Posted by dann View Post
And masks! Don't forget about masks!.... .
But Denmark isn't wearing masks.
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Old Yesterday, 10:25 AM   #1691
dann
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Originally Posted by Clutch Cargo View Post
Sweden has approximately double the population.

I am aware of that, but feel free to double the Danish numbers or compare Sweden with the other Nordic countries combined. There is no way for you to get around this, sorry!
Sweden
Total (registered) cases: 83,126; total deaths: 5,770; total tests: 863,315
Denmark
Total (registered) cases: 14,959; total deaths: 621; total tests: 1,780,284

Deaths last two weeks Sweden: 66; Denmark: 8.
And Denmark has been doing much worse than Finland and Norway.

Quote:
We still are not testing really. We can test for antibodies at the Apotek at a price and I don't know if it is included in "Högkostnadsskydd" reductions. Probably not.

No, but Sweden is ramping up antibody testing right now. My assumption is that it's part of Tegnell's plan to convince Swedes that his 'herd immunity' strategy has worked out fine, instead of ramping up testing for the virus, contact tracing and isolation of active and suspected cases, which would actually help bring the number of new cases down.

Quote:
But Denmark isn't wearing masks.

And Denmark didn't do nearly as well as Japan! And still doesn't.
Deaths per million:
Japan: 8
Denmark: 107
Sweden: 571

And unlike Sweden, we're learning:
Krav om mundbind i bus og tog indføres i seks kommuner (DR.dk, Aug. 10, 2020) - Face masks mandatory on public transport in six municipalities
20.000 elever skal bruge mundbind i visse situationer (TV2.dk, Aug. 11, 2020) - 20,000 students to wear face masks in certain situations
Der bør indføres krav om mundbind alle offentlige steder, mener hver tredje dansker (TV2.dk, Aug. 11, 2020) - One in three Danes think face masks should be made mandatory in all public places. (Actually two out of three, according to the article. And only about 27% don’t want to or are strongly against it.)
Prisen falder: Det koster et mundbind lige nu (DR.dk, Aug. 11, 2020) - The price is falling: What face masks cost right now

You mentioned that you were SD:
Inför munskydd Use face masks
Äldres liv betyder något The lives of old people matter
I disagree with SD on most things, but I applaud their opposition to Tegnell and FHM in this case.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

Last edited by dann; Yesterday at 10:40 AM.
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Old Yesterday, 10:46 AM   #1692
dann
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Tuesday:
Coronavirus - countries (Worldometers, Aug. 11, 2020)
Deaths per million (Total deaths) New cases Serious/Critical
Sweden: 571 (5,770) 154* 35 *since Friday according to SVT.se.
Denmark: 107 (621) 144 2
Finland: 60 (333) 22 1
Norway: 47 (256) 28 2
Iceland: 29 (10) 6 1
Iceland has 114 active cases, Faroe Islands 99, New Zealand 21.
The Faroe Island have 900+ in quarantine, awaiting results from tests carried out Aug. 10.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old Yesterday, 12:54 PM   #1693
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
..... I am aware that Denmark has had far fewer cases than Sweden; far fewer, actually, than you can only dream of …

Originally Posted by Clutch Cargo View Post
Sweden has approximately double the population.

Originally Posted by dann View Post
I am aware of that, ….

So, you intentionally left out that very important factor?


Originally Posted by dann View Post
There is no way for you to get around this, sorry!

What is it you think I’m trying “to get around”? If you tell someone that Sweden has more cases of Coronavirus but you do not tell them that Sweden’s population is double that of Denmark then it looks very much like it is you who is trying to “get around” something. Let the facts speak for themselves, don’t lead your reader to imagine something that is worse than truth.


Originally Posted by Clutch Cargo View Post
We still are not testing really. We can test for antibodies at the Apotek at a price and I don't know if it is included in "Högkostnadsskydd" reductions. Probably not

Originally Posted by dann View Post
No, but Sweden is ramping up antibody testing right now. My assumption is that it's part of Tegnell's plan to convince Swedes that his 'herd immunity' strategy has worked out fine, instead of ramping up testing for the virus, contact tracing and isolation of active and suspected cases, which would actually help bring the number of new cases down.

That’s what YOU say. There is so much being said in such extreme disagreement with everyone else that I don’t believe anyone.

1. I see what we are doing in Sweden.
2. I see that Denmark is doing the same as we are.
3. I see what they are doing in Germany: Extreme measures.
4. I see that Denmark and Germany have allowed us into their countries.
5. My personal conclusion: No one knows anything and all of the scary scenarios don’t seem to deter Denmark and Germany from letting Swedes visit.

As I said, I am 73 and I have a pace-maker so I am in the high risk zone and I have no reason to be too optimistic, but life goes on all around me and there isn’t much reason for it not to ..... AS FAR AS I CAN SEE.


Originally Posted by dann View Post
You mentioned that you were SD:
Inför munskydd Use face masks
Äldres liv betyder något The lives of old people matter
I disagree with SD on most things, but I applaud their opposition to Tegnell and FHM in this case.

There is very little about SD that I disagree with.
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Old Yesterday, 01:28 PM   #1694
dann
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Originally Posted by Clutch Cargo View Post
So, you intentionally left out that very important factor?

This is pathetic. You are new to this thread. Apart from you and Gavin, I don't think anybody else is, i.e. people here are, for the most part, aware of Sweden being larger than Denmark. They are also aware that Denmark (+ Greenland and the Faroe Islands), Finland, Iceland and Norway combined are larger than Sweden, and yet they have only a fraction of the deaths Sweden has had.

Quote:
What is it you think I’m trying “to get around”? If you tell someone that Sweden has more cases of Coronavirus but you do not tell them that Sweden’s population is double that of Denmark then it looks very much like it is you who is trying to “get around” something. Let the facts speak for themselves, don’t lead your reader to imagine something that is worse than truth.

I have told them! I have done so more than once. You are new to this thread. Why do you think I have included Deaths per million in my daily updates? To fool people? I haven't let 'my readers' imagine anything. With the deaths per million number it would be difficult for 'my reader' to imagine anything. Besides, if you follow my link to Worldometers, which I have included in every single update, all you need to do is look to the right side of the screen where you'll find the size of the populations of all the countries.
If you imagine that this is an attempt to let people "imagine something that is worse than the truth," then you're beyond the reach of common sense!

Quote:
That’s what YOU say. There is so much being said in such extreme disagreement with everyone else that I don’t believe anyone.

1. I see what we are doing in Sweden.
2. I see that Denmark is doing the same as we are.
3. I see what they are doing in Germany: Extreme measures.
4. I see that Denmark and Germany have allowed us into their countries.
5. My personal conclusion: No one knows anything and all of the scary scenarios don’t seem to deter Denmark and Germany from letting Swedes visit.

2: Most of the time, Denmark hasn't been doing the same thing Sweden has.
3: Measures in Germany haven't been extreme except in the case of big flare ups, which they have quarantined off.
5: Some know more than others, and some are trying to make their pandemic measures appear to be more effective than others. Some test an awful lot, others don't:
Sweden: 85,424
Denmark: 307,237
(Is it really necessary to mention that Sweden has 10.1 million inhabitants, and Denmark has 5.8?!"
My personal conclusion: These are just some of the things we actually know. You'll find an awful lot of others in this thread.

Quote:
As I said, I am 73 and I have a pace-maker* so I am in the high risk zone and I have no reason to be too optimistic, but life goes on all around me and there isn’t much reason for it not to ..... AS FAR AS I CAN SEE.

I don't think anybody's asked life to stop going on around us.

Quote:
There is very little about SD that I disagree with.

Then I'd recommend that you try to persuade them to encourage Swedes to wear masks - not just if they're care workers.


ETA:
Sweden: 5770 deaths
Other Nordic countries combined: 1220 deaths
Is that better? Or do I need to add the population data, too?

*ETA2: You have probably already got a pneumococcus vaccination then (and you are probably going to get a flu shot this autumn), but in case you haven't, I'd recommend that you get one:
Quote:
"When we looked in the setting of Covid disease, we found that people who had prior vaccinations with a variety of vaccines -- for pneumococcus, influenza, hepatitis and others -- appeared to have a lower risk of getting Covid disease," Dr. Andrew Badley, an infectious disease specialist at Mayo Clinic, told CNN's Anderson Cooper on Monday night.
It's what immunologists call immune training: how your immune system creates an effective response to fight off infections, Badley says.
Previous vaccines and masks may hold down Covid-19, some researchers say (CNN, Aug. 11, 2020)
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

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Old Yesterday, 01:35 PM   #1695
Rolfe
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Scotland hasn't had any more confirmed deaths but we had 52 new cases today, dammit. Three things going on. One is the Aberdeen cluster which seems to be contained as it isn't spiking exponentially, but is still some way from elimination, the second is something happening in and around Glasgow that hasn't been explained and might be a general increase in community transmission as a result of the pubs opening, and the third is an appreciable rise from baseline across the country as a whole, which might be the same thing but not so marked as in the city.

Many if not most of the new cases are people in their twenties, which explains the lack of increased hospital admissions and deaths. One can only hope they contain this before these idiots pass it on to their older friends and relatives, and before the inevitable 20-something does get seriously ill and/or hit by long covid.

Our current 7-day average of new infections is 51.7 per day, which is about ten times what we'd like it to be. Although it should start going down a bit tomorrow as we're a week from the peak of the cluster. Unless something else happens. I don't think Aberdeen is opening this week, on a bet.
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Old Yesterday, 01:39 PM   #1696
Giordano
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Originally Posted by Clutch Cargo View Post
So, you intentionally left out that very important factor?





What is it you think I’m trying “to get around”? If you tell someone that Sweden has more cases of Coronavirus but you do not tell them that Sweden’s population is double that of Denmark then it looks very much like it is you who is trying to “get around” something. Let the facts speak for themselves, don’t lead your reader to imagine something that is worse than truth.








That’s what YOU say. There is so much being said in such extreme disagreement with everyone else that I don’t believe anyone.

1. I see what we are doing in Sweden.
2. I see that Denmark is doing the same as we are.
3. I see what they are doing in Germany: Extreme measures.
4. I see that Denmark and Germany have allowed us into their countries.
5. My personal conclusion: No one knows anything and all of the scary scenarios don’t seem to deter Denmark and Germany from letting Swedes visit.

As I said, I am 73 and I have a pace-maker so I am in the high risk zone and I have no reason to be too optimistic, but life goes on all around me and there isn’t much reason for it not to ..... AS FAR AS I CAN SEE.





There is very little about SD that I disagree with.
Ninja’d by Dann himself but I will add my part: Dann has repeatedly been careful in this thread to present and discuss the various statistics per capita as well as per population, as can easily be confirmed by examining the thread. He/she has taken a lot of effort to discuss and consider other differences in the populations of these countries that might explain the differences in disease incidences and deaths. I have found him/her to be among the most fact based and unbiased of our members in this regard.
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Old Yesterday, 02:36 PM   #1697
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That graph I posted on the previous page was in cases per 10 million. Every picture tells a story.

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Old Yesterday, 03:12 PM   #1698
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old Yesterday, 04:28 PM   #1699
dann
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I don't know if this article and its copies of several emails will remain open access for long, so you should all download it immediately. In particular those of you who may have doubted that Sweden's strategy was 'herd immunity'. Giesecke was behind it all from the very beginning:
Mejlen som avslöjar Gieseckes indflytande över coronaplanen (Expressen.se, Aug. 11, 2020)

ETA: Tegnell-mejlen: Berättelsen om Johan Giesecke och Folkhälsomyndigheten (EmanuelKarsten.se, Aug. 11, 2020)
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

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Old Yesterday, 10:48 PM   #1700
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
This is pathetic. You are new to this thread. Apart from you and Gavin, I don't think anybody else is, i.e. people here are, for the most part, aware of Sweden being larger than Denmark. They are also aware that Denmark (+ Greenland and the Faroe Islands), Finland, Iceland and Norway combined are larger than Sweden, and yet they have only a fraction of the deaths Sweden has had.

I have told them! I have done so more than once. You are new to this thread. Why do you think I have included Deaths per million in my daily updates? To fool people? I haven't let 'my readers' imagine anything. With the deaths per million number it would be difficult for 'my reader' to imagine anything. Besides, if you follow my link to Worldometers, which I have included in every single update, all you need to do is look to the right side of the screen where you'll find the size of the populations of all the countries.
If you imagine that this is an attempt to let people "imagine something that is worse than the truth," then you're beyond the reach of common sense!

2: Most of the time, Denmark hasn't been doing the same thing Sweden has.
3: Measures in Germany haven't been extreme except in the case of big flare ups, which they have quarantined off.
5: Some know more than others, and some are trying to make their pandemic measures appear to be more effective than others. Some test an awful lot, others don't:
Sweden: 85,424
Denmark: 307,237
(Is it really necessary to mention that Sweden has 10.1 million inhabitants, and Denmark has 5.8?!"
My personal conclusion: These are just some of the things we actually know. You'll find an awful lot of others in this thread.

I don't think anybody's asked life to stop going on around us.

Then I'd recommend that you try to persuade them to encourage Swedes to wear masks - not just if they're care workers.

ETA:
Sweden: 5770 deaths
Other Nordic countries combined: 1220 deaths
Is that better? Or do I need to add the population data, too?

*ETA2: You have probably already got a pneumococcus vaccination then (and you are probably going to get a flu shot this autumn), but in case you haven't, I'd recommend that you get one:
You are clearly taking this too personally. I don’t know what you imagine I said but I am merely trying to keep the subject factual (where it is factual) and pointing out personal opinion (when that is all that it is). I think you've crossed that line, stating your personal opinion but presenting it as fact. I have taken no stance but If I cannot express the difference between fact and supposition without you seeing it as criticism then it’s not good. Relax and do not assume that open observation is an attack. This is a discussion, not a debate.
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Old Today, 01:32 AM   #1701
dann
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
Many if not most of the new cases are people in their twenties, which explains the lack of increased hospital admissions and deaths. One can only hope they contain this before these idiots pass it on to their older friends and relatives, and before the inevitable 20-something does get seriously ill and/or hit by long covid.

This seems to be going on everywhere:
Dr. Fauci Just Issued This Appeal to Young People About COVID-19 (EatThis, July 24, 2020)

North of Copenhagen, the police have closed down an area where high-school students (in Denmark typically age 16-18) traditionally meet when the new school year begins:
Politiet indfører opholdsforbud i Dyrehaven - vil undgå 'puttefest' (DR.dk, Aug. 11, 2020)

And WHO appeals to young people:
Coronavirus disease (COVID-19) Situation Report 204 - Subject in Focus: Celebrating International Youth Day and the positive contribution of young people in the COVID-19 response (WHO, Aug. 11, 2020)

After its admonitions a week ago:
'Do you really need to party?' WHO asks world's youth (WorldEconomicForum, Aug. 7, 2020)
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old Today, 02:31 AM   #1702
dann
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Originally Posted by Clutch Cargo View Post
You are clearly taking this too personally. I don’t know what you imagine I said but I am merely trying to keep the subject factual (where it is factual) and pointing out personal opinion (when that is all that it is). I think you've crossed that line, stating your personal opinion but presenting it as fact. I have taken no stance but If I cannot express the difference between fact and supposition without you seeing it as criticism then it’s not good. Relax and do not assume that open observation is an attack. This is a discussion, not a debate.

No, you aren't "merely trying to keep the subject factual", but if you do so, we can go on.
And never say that we don't know anything when we actually do. It's one of the favourite arguments of the superstitious: 'Science doesn't know everything. It has been wrong before, and maybe some day it will prove that astrology was right the whole time.'

In particular in the current situation, it is important to distinguish between actual knowledge, assumptions, and pig-headedness pretending to be backed up by science: Tegnell or Trump, for instance.
When I (or even Gavin) quote the number of cases in Sweden and elsewhere, it is something we know, but it is very important to stress what the number of cases means, i.e. the number of people who have been tested positive, and not the number of people who have actually been infected, i.e. the number of people tested positive for the virus + the dark number. The existence of the dark number again is something that we know. We just don't know how big it is, but we can make assumptions based on the percentage of people who have the virus when we make random tests, and the similar percentage of people who turn out to have been infected when we test for antibodies.

So as always, we should be aware of what we know, what we have good reason to assume, and what we don't know at all. There is very little of the latter in the case of the coronavirus at this point.
And this is something that you should pay attention to since manipulators like Tegnell and Giesecke use people's general inability to distinguish between these differences to trick them:

Tegnell: ”Ska man ha munskydd ska det baseras på vetenskap” Fyra av tio är för munskydd (Aftonbladet.se, Aug. 11, 2020)
Tegnell: "If we are to wear face masks, it should be based on science" - Four of ten (Swedes) are in favor of face masks

Tegnell has no reason whatsoever to imagine that face masks don't work. He now feels threatened because people no longer trust and obey him blindly; they've been ignorant, but they are not all idiots, and they can see what is going on in the rest of the world and compare to Sweden. With his pig-headed pride and arrogance, he has been the cause of thousands of deaths throughout this pandemic, and unlike Trump he won't simply disappear, like magic, in November.
His appeal to (alleged) science is nothing but an appeal to himself as a false authority.
It is reason for optimism that people in Sweden are beginning to wake up and realize this:

Även denna tisdag skriker coronademonstranterna åt Tegnell: ”Tänker stå här tills politiker och tjänstemän tar sitt förnuft till fånga och bestämmer att vi alla ska bära munskydd när vi rör oss bland andra” (Aftonbladet.se, Aug. 11, 2020)
Even this Tuesday, corona protesters are screaming at Tegnell: "We intend to stay here until politicians and civil servants come to their senses and decree that we should all wear face masks when we are among other people

The media are informing their readers about face masks:
Guide: Allt du behöver veta om munskydd (Aftonbladet)
Guide: Everything you need to know about face masks

And the protesters are not alone:
Quote:
Lars Calmfors och Göran K Hansson: Nu krävs ett omtag där effektiva åtgärder sätts in för att skydda befolkningen.
Covid-19 har inneburit en nationell katastrof för Sverige. Långsamt och otillräckligt agerande har troligen bidragit till detta. Och medicinare upplever att Folkhälsomyndigheten inte omprövar när ny information tillkommer.
”Låt inte prestige hindra en omprövning av coronastrategin” (DagensNyheter.se, Aug. 11, 2020)
Lars Calmfors and Göran K Hansson: What we need now is a turnaround where effective measures are put in place to protect the population.
Covid-19 has meant a national disaster for Sweden. Slow and insufficient action has probably contributed to this. And doctors have experienced that [hilite]the Public Health Agency does not reconsider when new information appears.
"Don't let prestige prevent a reconsideration of the corona strategy"

But with Tegnell in charge, there is reason to believe that reconsideration based on new facts and knowledge will be impossible. Again much like Trump, he isn't very good at handling any kind of change. He considers it to be a strength that he remains steadfast in his promotion of a failed strategy, and he hates it when other countries actually learn something new and adapt their pandemic response to the new facts:
Tegnell: ”Förvirrande när länder ändrar regler fram och tillbaka (DagensNyheter.se, Aug. 11, 2020)
Tegnell: "It's confusing when countries change their rules and regulations back and forth."

No, Tegnell, you poor thing! It's confusing when you present the useless Swedish number of cases to argue that other countries should open up their borders to your compatriots. That they change their policies when they discover that the spread of infection in Sweden is higher than they thought is not confusing at all. It's inconvenient for your attempt to present the Swedish strategy as successful, that's all it is.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

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Old Today, 03:46 AM   #1703
Clutch Cargo
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
No, you aren't "merely trying to keep the subject factual", but if you do so, we can go on.
And never say that we don't know anything when we actually do. It's one of the favourite arguments of the superstitious: 'Science doesn't know everything. It has been wrong before, and maybe some day it will prove that astrology was right the whole time.'

In particular in the current situation, it is important to distinguish between actual knowledge, assumptions, and pig-headedness pretending to be backed up by science: Tegnell or Trump, for instance.
When I (or even Gavin) quote the number of cases in Sweden and elsewhere, it is something we know, but it is very important to stress what the number of cases means, i.e. the number of people who have been tested positive, and not the number of people who have actually been infected, i.e. the number of people tested positive for the virus + the dark number. The existence of the dark number again is something that we know. We just don't know how big it is, but we can make assumptions based on the percentage of people who have the virus when we make random tests, and the similar percentage of people who turn out to have been infected when we test for antibodies.

So as always, we should be aware of what we know, what we have good reason to assume, and what we don't know at all. There is very little of the latter in the case of the coronavirus at this point.
And this is something that you should pay attention to since manipulators like Tegnell and Giesecke use people's general inability to distinguish between these differences to trick them:

Tegnell: ”Ska man ha munskydd ska det baseras på vetenskap” Fyra av tio är för munskydd (Aftonbladet.se, Aug. 11, 2020)
Tegnell: "If we are to wear face masks, it should be based on science" - Four of ten (Swedes) are in favor of face masks

Tegnell has no reason whatsoever to imagine that face masks don't work. He now feels threatened because people no longer trust and obey him blindly; they've been ignorant, but they are not all idiots, and they can see what is going on in the rest of the world and compare to Sweden. With his pig-headed pride and arrogance, he has been the cause of thousands of deaths throughout this pandemic, and unlike Trump he won't simply disappear, like magic, in November.
His appeal to (alleged) science is nothing but an appeal to himself as a false authority.
It is reason for optimism that people in Sweden are beginning to wake up and realize this:

Även denna tisdag skriker coronademonstranterna åt Tegnell: ”Tänker stå här tills politiker och tjänstemän tar sitt förnuft till fånga och bestämmer att vi alla ska bära munskydd när vi rör oss bland andra” (Aftonbladet.se, Aug. 11, 2020)
Even this Tuesday, corona protesters are screaming at Tegnell: "We intend to stay here until politicians and civil servants come to their senses and decree that we should all wear face masks when we are among other people

The media are informing their readers about face masks:
Guide: Allt du behöver veta om munskydd (Aftonbladet)
Guide: Everything you need to know about face masks

And the protesters are not alone:

Lars Calmfors and Göran K Hansson: What we need now is a turnaround where effective measures are put in place to protect the population.
Covid-19 has meant a national disaster for Sweden. Slow and insufficient action has probably contributed to this. And doctors have experienced that [hilite]the Public Health Agency does not reconsider when new information appears.
"Don't let prestige prevent a reconsideration of the corona strategy"

But with Tegnell in charge, there is reason to believe that reconsideration based on new facts and knowledge will be impossible. Again much like Trump, he isn't very good at handling any kind of change. He considers it to be a strength that he remains steadfast in his promotion of a failed strategy, and he hates it when other countries actually learn something new and adapt their pandemic response to the new facts:
Tegnell: ”Förvirrande när länder ändrar regler fram och tillbaka (DagensNyheter.se, Aug. 11, 2020)
Tegnell: "It's confusing when countries change their rules and regulations back and forth."

No, Tegnell, you poor thing! It's confusing when you present the useless Swedish number of cases to argue that other countries should open up their borders to your compatriots. That they change their policies when they discover that the spread of infection in Sweden is higher than they thought is not confusing at all. It's inconvenient for your attempt to present the Swedish strategy as successful, that's all it is.
You have already said things that are false/misleading/irrelevant. I make my decisions based upon proof or an abundance of clues that are agreed upon by broad appraisal. You are ignoring decisions made by people with greater knowledge. You’re just guessing.
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Old Today, 05:10 AM   #1704
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The dark number. If that's original, then that's nicely done. Regardless, it's a neat term, and I'm so going to appropriate it.
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Old Today, 05:23 AM   #1705
jimbob
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
The fact that your investment is likely to do a lot better in the medium to long term is relatively few people die and your country isn't massively disrupted by widespread serious illness seems to have escaped most of these people. A short (or even a longer) closure to get rid of the virus at the beginning is vastly preferable to a cycle of repeated opening and closure, and many customers staying away because they know the virus us out there.

The fact that a bit of money spent in the early stages supporting people who can't work due to the lockdown, or who have to isolate for public health reasons, will save a fortune compared to the later effects of mass redundancies and poverty, and indeed the effect of infectious people going out to drive their taxi or deliver their parcels rather than isolating, is also lost on many governments.


Mass redundancies, poverty, and significant numbers of people who have been maimed by the virus and now have long term health problems, which is an economic as well as a humane problem
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link is 2015 data (2013 Data below):
UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending
US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending
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Old Today, 05:52 AM   #1706
dann
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Originally Posted by Chanakya View Post
The dark number. If that's original, then that's nicely done. Regardless, it's a neat term, and I'm so going to appropriate it.

It was used here as early as March 11 when they were still optimistic about the size of that number:
"We are not yet aware of all the people who are infected. There will be a dark number. But we have good control over it." (TheLocal.dk, March 11, 2020)
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old Today, 06:07 AM   #1707
dann
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Originally Posted by Clutch Cargo View Post
You have already said things that are false/misleading/irrelevant. I make my decisions based upon proof or an abundance of clues that are agreed upon by broad appraisal. You are ignoring decisions made by people with greater knowledge. You’re just guessing.

I've made no false or misleading claims, but I can see why you would find what I've written irrelevant.
Sweden's failed strategy was no doubt "agreed upon by broad appraisal", but Swedes were misled to think that it was backed up by actual science because Tegnell pretended to be an actual scientist. I don't ignore decisions made by people with greater knowledge, but that's what Swedes tend to say whenever Tegnell is criticized.
If I am guessing, then I say so, unlike you. There is a big difference between qualified guessing and denying reality, which seems to be what you are inclined to do when you claim that, on the one hand, we don't know anything, and yet, on the other hand, you state that you make your decisions "based upon proof." That is very difficult to do when you don't know anything ...
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old Today, 06:10 AM   #1708
dann
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111 new cases since yesterday, 44 of them in Aarhus
(DR.dk, Aug. 12, 2020) - For the first time nobody is on ventilators, and it’s not because the last two died. There are no new deaths. In spite of this, local politicians won’t cancel the annual festival week beginning on Aug. 28. Researchers warn against it, obviously:

Politikere vil gennemføre Aarhus festuge, der besøges af op mod 500,000 (TV2.dk, Aug. 12, 2020)
Politicians want to go through with Aarhus festival week, which is visited by as many as 500,000

Det aarhusianske kontakttal er tæt på marts-nivesu (DR.dk, Aug. 11, 2020)
The R0 in Aarhus is close to the level in March

Norge fraråder rejser til danske regioner (DR.dk, Aug. 12, 2020)
Norway advises against going to Danish regions - the two regions Midtjylland (with Aarhus) and Sjælland (with Ringsted), i.e. Zealand outside of Copenhagen. Also six regions in Sweden and six new countries. I’m surprised to see that Iceland is one of them.

Venstre vil tvangsindlægge corona-smittede som bryder karantænen (DR.dk, Aug. 12, 2020)
The party Venstre wants to commit people with corona who break the quarantine - There are no indications that anybody does that, but now that it’s come out that many immigrants are infected, the party seems to think that it’s a good idea to make it seem as if immigrants have caused the new clusters and aren’t primarily the victims of them. I don't remember Venstre complaining about ski tourists back in February and March when it would have been a good idea to do so.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

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