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Tags general discussion , Israel issues , Israel-Palestine conflict , Palestine issues , US-Israel relations

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Old 8th August 2016, 02:23 PM   #601
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Double post

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Old 8th August 2016, 02:27 PM   #602
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Europe will never forgive the Jews for Auschwitz.
???????????
Now.I.Start.to.Understand.Why.You.Think.This.Way..



Oh my.. my..

Originally Posted by Hlafordlaes View Post
The world is an ever-dangerous place, never safe for the Jewish people.
This is beyond paranoia..



Originally Posted by Hlafordlaes View Post
Don't tell me you cannot imagine a derivation of Trumpism plus white nationalism that turns on the Jews?
Pure Paranoia..



All the world is plotting against the Jews..
Oh my.. my..

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Old 8th August 2016, 02:34 PM   #603
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Old 8th August 2016, 02:38 PM   #604
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Are you claiming WWII was fought over anti-Semitism?!

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Old 8th August 2016, 02:58 PM   #605
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Originally Posted by SashatheMagnificent View Post
???????????
Now.I.Start.to.Understand.Why.You.Think.This.Way..

Oh my.. my..

This is beyond paranoia..

Pure Paranoia..

All the world is plotting against the Jews..
Oh my.. my..
Oh, pictures! Missing an argument. That's argument, not stream of consciousness rant. Try again.
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Old 8th August 2016, 03:10 PM   #606
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
Are you claiming WWII was fought over anti-Semitism?!

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My bad.. I mistunderstood your post
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Old 8th August 2016, 03:30 PM   #607
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SashaTheMagnificent, are you claiming that the UN General Assembly has moral authority?
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Old 8th August 2016, 03:42 PM   #608
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
SashaTheMagnificent, are you claiming that the UN General Assembly has moral authority?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XZxzJGgox_E
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Old 8th August 2016, 03:52 PM   #609
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Originally Posted by SashatheMagnificent View Post
My bad.. I mistunderstood your post
What kind of "misunderstanding" makes you think face-palms are an appropriate response to every mention of anti-Semitism?

Like it or not it's a part of the discussion and trivializing it is crass.

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Old 8th August 2016, 05:31 PM   #610
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Originally Posted by SashatheMagnificent View Post
Now.I.Start.to.Understand.Why.You.Think.This.Way..
No, you don't.

Originally Posted by SashatheMagnificent View Post
My bad.. I mistunderstood your post
Yes, you did.
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Old 8th August 2016, 11:15 PM   #611
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Originally Posted by NWO Sentryman View Post
So David, what were the Jews supposed to do after 1945, when they still faced antisemitism even after the Holocaust? Trust Europe not to exterminate them again? And if Israel is racist/totalitarian/colonialist, why have they behaved with far more restraint than their Arab Neighbours (I don't recall Israel using nerve gas once or engaging in Genocide), not to mention that Israel has treated Muslim Jerusalem with far more respect than the Saudis treated Mecca/Medina.
As for international law, it was confirmed to be a joke for Israelis when they received far more condemnations in the UN than Saudi Arabia, Assad's Syria, North Korea and Pol Pot's Cambodia put together. I mean, when Pol Pot was wiping out a third of Cambodia's population, Israel got worse treatment for defending itself in Yom Kippur. Meanwhile, Israel today operates with far more restraint than Assad and Putin in Syria, yet gets treated as though it were testing biological weapons on Palestinian Chldren.

So what is your solution that doesn't involve degenerating into a Syrian Civil War 2.0 with nuke DLC?
STM
Last I checked the Nazis weren't in a hair's breath of demolishing the Dome of the Rock or the Al Aqsa mosque.
No more comics about Al Aqsa, nuclear war in Syria, etc., please. Be serious. I you want verified data you can choose more consistent sources.

I have not any political solution for Palestine at short-term basis. I have said this in my first comment. I am analysing the root causes of the conflict. My subject is more specific: Has the State of Israel a demandable right to the existence?

I see your answer is “no”. If you think the International Right and the UN are simply “jokes”, the unique basis for a legal occupation of the Palestinian land, this is to say, the UN partition, vanishes. Your logic pushes us back to the medieval times. This is not a joke.

If I were a Jew in 1948 I would probably decide to stay in Europe, as many Jews actually did without any problem. Other solutions were possible without having to go to Palestine to kill and deprive other people that haven't done anything wrong to me. For I have some moral sense that impedes me to kill or to justify a killer. Or a sense of my own human pride over my religious or ethnical impulses. I don’t know how to name this. Moral shame, perhaps? Many Jews have experienced some similar feelings in 1948 and after. My respect. And my respect to those that fight against the occupation and illegality/immorality in their own country. It is a difficult but admirable task.

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Old 9th August 2016, 12:08 AM   #612
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
True. The way the Knesset works is what makes Israel a democracy. (…)
In the West Bank. But not in the Palestinian Authority (ie, the "government").
I don't recall you having done so. But you clearly tried to lay the blame for the impossibility of a stable democratic one-state solution at the feet of Israel, and the absence of any effective democratic Palestinian self-government is directly relevant to that.
How the parliament functions is a condition for democracy. Not the most important. Under non democratic conditions the rule of a parliament is irrelevant. The respect to the Human Rights and non-discriminative laws are more important.

Maybe the Palestinians consider that 500.000 non-invited Israelis in their country is more than enough. Especially if they behave as the owners of the land.

The democratic flaws in Palestine (in the three sides: Hamas, PLO and Israel) are responsible for a part of the problem. Notwithstanding, the main obstacle is occupation. The main problem in France in 1942 was not the lack of democracy of the Vichy Regime. I hope even you can understand this.

Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
Except there was never any "Palestinian house" to give away, which makes it a terrible metaphor.
This is the perfect pretext of all colonialist systems. “A people without a land for a land without people”. You know.
My home is my house, my people, my country (Nation, State, Region, Country, Village…call it as you want). Colonialism is based on the denial of this basic right. Therefore, I am claiming that Israel is a colonial State.
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Old 9th August 2016, 12:14 AM   #613
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Originally Posted by Hlafordlaes View Post
Oh, pictures! Missing an argument. That's argument, not stream of consciousness rant. Try again.
Facing hallucitations any rational argument is impossible.

Last edited by David Mo; 9th August 2016 at 12:35 AM.
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Old 9th August 2016, 12:24 AM   #614
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What worries me is the level of barbarism in the defense of the State of Israel. Logic in fundamentalists. But now they speak of realism.
New commentary will come. I have not time to develop this. Sorry.

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Old 9th August 2016, 02:22 AM   #615
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Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
What worries me is the level of barbarism in the defense of the State of Israel. Logic in fundamentalists. But now they speak of realism.
New commentary will come. I have not time to develop this. Sorry.
"barbarism", Assad is far worse a butcher in Syria, yet Israel is somehow depicted as a worse demon. Those who point that out aren't fundamentalists.

Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
No more comics about Al Aqsa, nuclear war in Syria, etc., please. Be serious. I you want verified data you can choose more consistent sources.
My points were:

1) Israel has behaved with a lot more restraint than its neighbours yet is demonised far more by comfortable westerners who behave like saints in paradise
2) The Saudis do far worse **** to Muslim holy sites than Israel with
3) A one State Solution is impossible now that Israel can point to the Syrian collapse

Quote:
I have not any political solution for Palestine at short-term basis. I have said this in my first comment. I am analysing the root causes of the conflict. My subject is more specific: Has the State of Israel a demandable right to the existence?
It has an enforceable right.

Quote:
I see your answer is “no”. If you think the International Right and the UN are simply “jokes”, the unique basis for a legal occupation of the Palestinian land, this is to say, the UN partition, vanishes. Your logic pushes us back to the medieval times. This is not a joke.
They have always been jokes. Ask the Tutsis, the Bosnians, the Syrians etc. Also why wasn't Pol Pot condemned to anywhere near the same extent while Israel was condemned as the new Nazi Germany with the "Zionism as Racism" resolution.

Quote:
If I were a Jew in 1948 I would probably decide to stay in Europe, as many Jews actually did without any problem. Other solutions were possible without having to go to Palestine to kill and deprive other people that haven't done anything wrong to me. For I have some moral sense that impedes me to kill or to justify a killer. Or a sense of my own human pride over my religious or ethnical impulses. I don’t know how to name this. Moral shame, perhaps? Many Jews have experienced some similar feelings in 1948 and after. My respect. And my respect to those that fight against the occupation and illegality/immorality in their own country. It is a difficult but admirable task.
Good for you, now you have to explain to your 1945 family why they should gamble on there not being a second holocaust.
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Old 9th August 2016, 03:38 AM   #616
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Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
Facing hallucitations any rational argument is impossible.
Are you hallucinating?
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Old 9th August 2016, 04:19 AM   #617
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Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
Notwithstanding, the main obstacle is occupation.
No, it isn't. The main obstacle is the desire by Hamas and others to kill Jews and destroy Israel. This won't go away with an end to occupation.
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Old 9th August 2016, 04:38 AM   #618
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
No, it isn't. The main obstacle is the desire by Hamas and others to kill Jews and destroy Israel. This won't go away with an end to occupation.
Right. The insoluble problem is that:
- both sides must want peace. Too many Palestinians don't.
- The West provides support to the "underdog", enabling and encouraging the bad behavior to continue generation after generation, as there are no consequences for being dysfunctional (other than continued aid).
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Old 9th August 2016, 04:55 AM   #619
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Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
I have not any political solution for Palestine at short-term basis. I have said this in my first comment. I am analysing the root causes of the conflict. My subject is more specific: Has the State of Israel a demandable right to the existence?
This question has already been settled, and not in the way you want. No amount of sophistry is going to change that. Israel will not be argued out of existence.
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Old 9th August 2016, 05:01 AM   #620
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Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
This is the perfect pretext of all colonialist systems. “A people without a land for a land without people”. You know.
My home is my house, my people, my country (Nation, State, Region, Country, Village…call it as you want). Colonialism is based on the denial of this basic right. Therefore, I am claiming that Israel is a colonial State.
Don't put words in my mouth, if you don't understand what is being said either ask or remain silent.

Those early zionists were immigrants, not colonialists. They came, they purchased their land, they built communities, businesses and infrastructure. They did not "take" part of anyone's house, they built their own.

Xenophobia is ugly, and I've never seen it defended like it is by the likes of you and other "anti-Zionists."
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Old 9th August 2016, 06:42 AM   #621
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Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
What worries me is the level of barbarism in the defense of the State of Israel.
But the barbarism of those actively trying to destroy Israel doesn't bother you at all. Because reasons.
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Old 9th August 2016, 06:43 AM   #622
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post

Xenophobia is ugly, and I've never seen it defended like it is by the likes of you and other "anti-Zionists."
There's a lot of racism under the guide of anti-racism.
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Old 9th August 2016, 07:36 AM   #623
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
Those early zionists were immigrants, not colonialists. They came, they purchased their land. They did not "take" part of anyone's house, they built their own.
Edited by jsfisher:  <snip> Content removed fro compliance with Rules 0 and 12 of the Membership Agreement.

Link:.

Originally Posted by link
In early January 1949, the management committee presented its plan to the Israeli government. It proposed the establishment of 69 new agricultural cooperatives during the winter and spring of that year. Of these,
56 were to be established on abandoned Arab village sites, including 31 in which the original buildings would serve as living quarters.
Originally Posted by Mycroft
Xenophobia is ugly, and I've never seen it defended like it is by the likes of you and other "anti-Zionists."
The xenophobe here is you.
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Old 9th August 2016, 07:37 AM   #624
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Originally Posted by applecorped View Post
Are you hallucinating?
Yes. When I see someone foreseeing a new 'Holocaust' in Europe I hallucinate a lot. This level of argument makes me feel in Mars.
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Old 9th August 2016, 07:47 AM   #625
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Originally Posted by Giz View Post
Right. The insoluble problem is that:
- both sides must want peace. Too many Palestinians don't.
Yes, Israelis want peace... under total submission of Palestinians. Also German occupation forces wanted the peace and they were very disappointed when some French didn't want it. Do you know the word "DIKTAT"?

Sorry, I have gone out of my subject.
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Old 9th August 2016, 08:06 AM   #626
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
Don't put words in my mouth, if you don't understand what is being said either ask or remain silent.

Those early zionists were immigrants, not colonialists. They came, they purchased their land, they built communities, businesses and infrastructure. They did not "take" part of anyone's house, they built their own.

Xenophobia is ugly, and I've never seen it defended like it is by the likes of you and other "anti-Zionists."
What right? The right to take over the land with other inhabitants and expulse them? Religious law, international law...?

"There was not a Palestinians' home" is not the same of "A people without land for a land without people"? What is the difference? Sorry, I have not Tapatalk.

What xenophobia? Anti-sionism is not antisemitism. In the same way that anti-fascism was not anti-Italy. Do I need to explain the difference?
NOTE: The surname of the mother of my mother was "Salom". Do you understand?
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Old 9th August 2016, 08:11 AM   #627
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
This question has already been settled, and not in the way you want. No amount of sophistry is going to change that. Israel will not be argued out of existence.
Was it settled by why? Unanimous opinion? The Lord's Word descended on this forum?
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Old 9th August 2016, 08:20 AM   #628
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
Edited by jsfisher:  <snip> Moderated content redacted.
One of the hallmarks of the lunatic far left "Anti-Zionists" is a persistent inability to distinguish one time period from another. Since you apparently share this disorder, it seems natural to you to "refute" my statement about early Zionists with a document that refers to a much later time period.


Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
The xenophobe here is you.
Says the man who was just a few days ago arguing that slanders made against Israel without evidence should be given credence unless proven wrong,and who apparently can't see the bias in that.

Oh yeah, and you earn another 40 crackpot points for using the term "fascist."

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Old 9th August 2016, 08:20 AM   #629
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
Those early zionists were immigrants, not colonialists. They came, they purchased their land, they built communities, businesses and infrastructure. They did not "take" part of anyone's house, they built their own.
Excuse me, but this is totally false.

In addition: even if this would be correct it has nothing to do with colonialism. European settlers in America didn't build over indians tipis. And they were colonists in the strict sense of the term.

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Old 9th August 2016, 08:22 AM   #630
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Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
Yes, Israelis want peace... under total submission of Palestinians. Also German occupation forces wanted the peace and they were very disappointed when some French didn't want it. Do you know the word "DIKTAT"?

Sorry, I have gone out of my subject.
If "total submission" means autonomous self-rule and no longer waging war against Israel, then yeah. I suppose.

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Old 9th August 2016, 08:26 AM   #631
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Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
And they were colons in the strict sense of the term.
Your terrible spelling is occasionally hilarious.

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Old 9th August 2016, 08:32 AM   #632
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Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
Excuse me, but this is totally false.

In addition: even if this would be correct it has nothing to do with colonialism. European settlers in America didn't build over indians tipis. And they were colons in the strict sense of the term.
European settlers in the Americas encountered cultures that didn't have the same traditions of land ownership that Europeans did, they didn't have titles and deeds.

That wasn't true of the Ottoman Empire, which did have land titles and deeds, just like the regions they immigrated from. They had to purchase their land.

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Old 9th August 2016, 08:35 AM   #633
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Your terrible spelling is occasionally hilarious.

https://medlineplus.gov/images/largeintestine.jpg
You neither are Shakespeare.

A false friend, you know. It is not easy to write in other language without dictionnary. I go too fast.
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Old 9th August 2016, 08:37 AM   #634
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Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
Was it settled by why? Unanimous opinion? The Lord's Word descended on this forum?
By the establishment of Israel. You're almost 70 years too late.

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Old 9th August 2016, 08:39 AM   #635
Wolrab
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Originally Posted by NWO Sentryman View Post
So when the Arab armies, hopped up on Nazi Propaganda marched on Israel in 1948, the jews should have just rolled over and died?

And here's a fun fact: every state is founded and maintained by violence (Monopoly of force). And it's easy to live comfortably in the first world and insist that Israelis totally give in to genocidal maniacs while bordering Syria and Iraq. And also, the UN partition plan was never realised as the Palestinians decided to listen to an SS recruiting sergeant and try to finish what Hitler started.
Except the UK, I've been told.
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Old 9th August 2016, 08:43 AM   #636
Ziggurat
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Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
You neither are Shakespeare.
I wouldn't be hanging out here if I was.

Quote:
A false friend, you know. It is not easy to write in other language without dictionnary. I go too fast.
Yes, I know it's not easy. But it's still funny. So don't take yourself so seriously, and laugh.

You might also consider using a web browser with a spell checker. Firefox, for example, comes with one built in, and it even provides suggestions for correct spelling. You might need to change the language used by the spell checker from the default, but that shouldn't be hard. A spell checker won't fix every problem ('colon' is a real word, so it wouldn't flag that), but it would catch the error in this post.
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Old 9th August 2016, 08:59 AM   #637
David Mo
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
European settlers in the Americas encountered cultures that didn't have the same traditions of land ownership that Europeans did, they didn't have titles and deeds.

That wasn't true of the Ottoman Empire, which did have land titles and deeds, just like the regions they immigrated from. They had to purchase their land.

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Between 500.000 and 900.000 Palestinians were expulsed of their country in the Nakhba. About 400 villages were absolutely demolished. Some cities as Lydda were emptied of Palestinians (70.000 in Lydda). The subsequent Law of Absent Owners forbade their return to their land.
But you said that they could present their land titles or similar.

Maybe you are saying that because they have not any land tittle Israel have the right of expulse them. It seems that they didn’t exist. “A land without a people”, I see.

A big joker you are. Sorry. I cannot stop laughing. I come back tomorrow.
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Old 9th August 2016, 09:15 AM   #638
caveman1917
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
One of the hallmarks of the lunatic far left "Anti-Zionists" is a persistent inability to distinguish one time period from another. Since you apparently share this disorder, it seems natural to you to "refute" my statement about early Zionists with a document that refers to a much later time period.
Here is what Mycroft was actually arguing:
Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
Therefore, I am claiming that Israel is a colonial State.
Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
Those early zionists were immigrants, not colonialists. They came, they purchased their land, they built communities, businesses and infrastructure. They did not "take" part of anyone's house, they built their own.
The document I provided does in fact describe the earliest zionist settling process by Israel.

Originally Posted by Mycroft
Says the man who was just a few days ago arguing that slanders made against Israel without evidence should be given credence unless proven wrong
Here is what I have actually said:
Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
the default assumption is that we don't know whether the allegations are true or false, or what really happened during the events which are the subject of the allegations.
Whenever a fascist breathes, he lies.
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Last edited by caveman1917; 9th August 2016 at 09:19 AM.
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Old 9th August 2016, 09:17 AM   #639
Mycroft
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Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
Between 500.000 and 900.000 Palestinians were expulsed of their country in the Nakhba. About 400 villages were absolutely demolished. Some cities as Lydda were emptied of Palestinians (70.000 in Lydda). The subsequent Law of Absent Owners forbade their return to their land.
But you said that they could present their land titles or similar.

Maybe you are saying that because they have not any land tittle Israel have the right of expulse them. It seems that they didn’t exist. “A land without a people”, I see.

A big joker you are. Sorry. I cannot stop laughing. I come back tomorrow.
You, like caveman17, apparently suffers from the inability to distinguish one time period from another, so I can just cut & paste what I said to him :

One of the hallmarks of the lunatic far left "Anti-Zionists" is a persistent inability to distinguish one time period from another. Since you apparently share this disorder, it seems natural to you to "refute" my statement about early Zionists with a document statement that refers to a much later time period.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewi...e_in_Palestine






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Old 9th August 2016, 09:42 AM   #640
Mycroft
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
Here is what Mycroft was actually arguing:
Wrong quote, check again.

Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
The document I provided does in fact describe the earliest zionist settling process by Israel.
Nope. It still refers to post war Israel.

Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
Whenever a fascist breathes, he lies.
Building up those crackpot points. Trying to set a record?


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