Greta Thunberg - brave campaigner or deeply disturbed?

[theprestige]

Originally Posted by Checkmite

Her message isn't for you. It's for people her own age - as I said before, teens who have just reached or are about to reach voting age.

She's not bringing any new information to the table. She's not claiming or pretending to be. She's just bringing a new audience to the information - and the polls. You aren't part of that audience. That's fine. You don't have to concern yourself with anything she says or does in the slightest.

Exactly.

3point14's concern about her message here:

Originally Posted by 3point14

Got anything to say about what she actually says?

Or is this the character assassination thread where we ignore the issues she's raising and focus on the ad hominem attacks?

Is entirely beside the point of the thread. We already stipulate her message. We've already been debating her message here for years.

This thread, is explicitly intended to be a discussion of the person, not of her message.

[theprestige]

Originally Posted by ThatGuy11200

Children can help to convince their parents.

https://www.newscientist.com/article...box=1558688534

A study in North Carolina has shown that giving children hands-on lessons on climate change and getting them to talk to their parents about it can convince parents who were previously unconcerned that global warming really is a threat. Most strikingly, the biggest effect was on parents who described themselves as conservative. They flipped from being unconcerned on average to being quite concerned.

“Engaging kids like this not only gives them the knowledge to prepare themselves to deal with climate change in the future, it empowers them to make a difference now,” says Danielle Lawson of North Carolina State University, whose team carried out the two-year study. “It supports the efforts we see across the globe, that kids are taking.”

...

“Earlier studies have shown that environmental education can have a positive effect on parents,” says John Cook of the Center for Climate Change Communication at George Mason University, who was not involved in the study. “The new quirk in this research is showing that the effect is strongest among conservative, sceptical parents.”

I find this approach deeply disturbing. Adults who are having trouble convincing other adults through rational debate should probably not exploit their positions of trust to indoctrinate children to debate on their behalf. Regardless of the cromulence of the message being indoctrinated.

[theprestige]

Originally Posted by Matthew Best

Which bit of "I don't think she's deeply disturbed" was not clear?

No bit of that was not clear.

I am addressing the excuse you originally made for not answering.

Quote:

I'll say it again: I don't think she's deeply disturbed, and I certainly haven't seen any evidence of that. I actually think she rocks.

And yet you started a thread to import the insinuation that she could actually be deeply disturbed. You could have simply discussed how much you think she rocks, without focusing on this right-wing jackass and his jackass ideas.

Quote:

I also haven't seen any evidence that she has unpleasantly pushy parents.

I have no opinion about that.

[ThatGuy11200]

Originally Posted by theprestige

I find this approach deeply disturbing. Adults who are having trouble convincing other adults through rational debate should probably not exploit their positions of trust to indoctrinate children to debate on their behalf. Regardless of the cromulence of the message being indoctrinated.

There are plenty of adults who can't be convinced through rational debate with other adults because they become defensive about their personal beliefs. What I find disturbing is that there are people who cannot change their stance on an issue when presented with evidence, regardless of the seriousness of the situation.

Teaching children about natural processes isn't 'indoctrination'; it's a science education. Perhaps you'd prefer if they were told about some imaginary god so they could pray climate change away.

[Vixen]

Originally Posted by jimbob

Er how does that answer this Matthew's request for a citation.



Nobody is doubting that there are online ASD questionnaires, it was (1) the assertion that half the diagnoses of ASD are self-diagnosed, and what wasn't mentioned, the implication that Greta Thunberg was self-diagnosed.

I didn't imply that at all. I clearly said her parents got her diagnosed.

[Matthew Best]

Originally Posted by theprestige

And yet you started a thread to import the insinuation that she could actually be deeply disturbed. You could have simply discussed how much you think she rocks, without focusing on this right-wing jackass and his jackass ideas.

Whatevs.

[Checkmite]

The supplying of simple scientific facts to children is not "indoctrination". That is a right-wing propagandic talking-point commonly used to demonize public education in general but particularly science classes in public schools. It is most notably a darling of YECs who wish to remove basic biology from science classes, or force the inclusion of Creationism teachings, or preferably both.

[Matthew Best]

Originally Posted by Vixen

I didn't imply that at all. I clearly said her parents got her diagnosed.

You clearly said that half the diagnoses of ASD are self-diagnosed. I've seen no evidence of this, from you or anywhere else. Quite what it has to do with this thread I have no idea, but you brought it up presumably for some reason, and not just so that everyone could laugh at you.

[Vixen]

Originally Posted by Matthew Best

You clearly said that half the diagnoses of ASD are self-diagnosed. I've seen no evidence of this, from you or anywhere else. Quite what it has to do with this thread I have no idea, but you brought it up presumably for some reason, and not just so that everyone could laugh at you.

I said 'half the people you meet with Aspergers have diagnosed themselves'.

I have met no end of people claiming to be asperger's or labelled as such by others. For example, when I worked in the city, whilst everybody else went out at lunchtime, there was one individual who could always be found sitting at his desk eating his homemade sandwiches. He was called, 'Asperger's' as if to explain it and as if it was grossly abnormal to not demonstrate your job was so high-powered you didn't have time to make your own lunch but had to pop out - preferably at a brisk pace - to Pret's or the salt beef sandwich bar, or join an interminable round of someone's birthday or leaving do.

Some people wear 'Asperger's' as a badge. Usually IT nerds who sit in their bedrooms hacking Fort Knox or the White House and ending up getting extradited, with their distraught mum begging for clemency because her dear son has 'got Asperger's' and just can't stop hacking computers and annoying US governments.

In other words, the parents of Greta publicise Greta's Aspergers as though it is somehow trendy to have Asperger's. How do you think Andrew Bolt got to know about Greta's 'long list' of disorders, if not from her doting parents?

[Matthew Best]

So, no evidence then?

[Checkmite]

Originally Posted by Vixen

I said 'half the people you meet with Aspergers have diagnosed themselves'.

This statement is functionally identical to what Matthew Best described you as saying, and carries the same problems.

[Vixen]

Originally Posted by Matthew Best

So, no evidence then?

For a start, it hasn't been a recognised disorder since early 2013.

Quote:

Until May 22, with the official release of the DSM-5, Asperger's was considered related to but distinct from autism. DSM-5 contains a new disorder that replaces both the old autistic disorder and Asperger's: It is called autism spectrum disorder. [5 Things that Might Really Cause Autism]

https://www.livescience.com/37333-ds...-disorder.html

What more evidence do you need?

[Matthew Best]

Any at all?

[Checkmite]

Originally Posted by Vixen

For a start, it hasn't been a recognised disorder since early 2013.

https://www.livescience.com/37333-ds...-disorder.html

What more evidence do you need?

The passage you just quoted makes it clear that it's still recognized, just now as ASD along with the other kinds of autism.

[applecorped]

Originally Posted by Matthew Best

So, no evidence then?

Whatevs

[Vixen]

Originally Posted by Matthew Best

Any at all?

Quote:

But one trend on the rise is adults self diagnosing autism spectrum disorder (ASD). Now, more than ever, adults are recognizing signs of autism in themselves, leading to contact with a professional who may diagnose them with autism or some form of ASD.

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/are-a...rEg5DkTEGlj4Hd

[Matthew Best]

Still no backup for your 50% figure? I presume that arose from rectal extraction.

[Vixen]

Originally Posted by Matthew Best

Still no backup for your 50% figure? I presume that arose from rectal extraction.

If you are an English speaker you would know that when people say 'half' it is an idiom, a figure of speech and means of expressing quantity. For example, 'It ain't 'alf hot/cold/good', 'Half the time', 'Half an inkling' a 'half wit', 'Half way to paradise', 'meet half way', 'half way house', etc.

So if someone says to you, 'half the people you meet' then you should know it is vernacular and not a mathematical equation.

[Matthew Best]

So it was a completely made up figure with nothing to back it up. Got it.

Now perhaps we can move on.

[Vixen]

Originally Posted by Matthew Best

So it was a completely made up figure with nothing to back it up. Got it.

Now perhaps we can move on.

Not so.

However, I'll let you have the last word.

[Childlike Empress]

Originally Posted by Vixen

Not so.

However, I'll let you have the last word.

No, let me have it. A justifiably criticized thread with me being the only one who answered the question correctly: "false dichotomy"; and the OP aggressively hiding behind unclear statements of others after he was called out.

I made it a running gag btw to everytime when a wasteful use of resources comes up in conversation say heavy with meaning "und Greta weint" (and Greta cries). Works quite well on both the activist and the subversive level (they both laugh together).

[Matthew Best]

Originally Posted by Childlike Empress

No, let me have it. A justifiably criticized thread with me being the only one who answered the question correctly: "false dichotomy"; and the OP aggressively hiding behind unclear statements of others after he was called out.

"Aggressively hiding"?

Well, that one's new to me!

[catsmate]

Originally Posted by Francesca R

Are you claiming that her parents bribed the nominators or what?

There are over three hundred nominees, not an unusual number. There are literally thousands of possible nominators. Being nominated is not at all difficult.

[catsmate]

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

Because these kids believe the adults are ******* up the world the kids will be living in after the adults are dead.

This. They'll be living in the damaged world that the current rightists don't want to start fixing.

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

Me too. This thread is the first I've ever heard about the parents and the autism issue. Imagine that, I missed all that while being very familiar with Greta, the student strikes and her growing renown in global warming conferences.

I was aware of the autism, not the parents.

Originally Posted by Vixen

There you go, then. You've been manipulated by the Thunberg's PR machine.

Just ******* pathetic.

[catsmate]

Originally Posted by Vixen

It's exploiting a vulnerable kid. Making her feel special and different, when truth is, she is probably not that different from her peers.

Any evidence for this one of your numerous assertions?

Originally Posted by Vixen

For crying out loud. Every new generation believes 'the adults have failed to act'.

I can you haven't noticed, or can't be bothered to care, the planet on which we live (for the moment) is undergoing climactic alteration due to human activities.
This is somewhat important.

Originally Posted by Vixen

When I was eight, I was stricken by the thought of people starving in the world. I made my mother send off all of my spare money to a famine-relief charity. I went on a 30-mile walk for Oxfam with sponsorship. Was I special? No.

Unlike your efforts Ms. Thunberg is actually having an effect. Maybe you should have tried harder?

Originally Posted by Vixen

Take a look at this piece of pretentiousness:
What?!

'Svante' is a common Swedish name and indeed Svante [Sture] founded the Swedish empire (seeing off King Christian of Denmark). He named his son 'Svante' and there are a whole load of 'em down history.

What "pretentiousness"? Other than in your imagination of course.
Arrhenius was a brilliant, polymathic, scientist, an early Nobel laureate and someone you'd have encountered early on if you'd studied science. He also crops up in the fields of toxicology, geology, astrobiology and climatography.
Hardly unusual for someone to be named after him.

I was at college with an Ernest who'd been named for another Nobel laureate.

Originally Posted by Vixen

The above guff tells you Greta is merely a mouthpiece of her global warming fanatic dad.

Evidence for this claim of your?

Originally Posted by Vixen

I am sure she is sincere herself but her parents are contemptible.

Evidence for this claim of your?

[catsmate]

Originally Posted by Vixen

Country Living - a 'Green' website is a 'right-wing source'?

Oh dear jeebus...

[catsmate]

Originally Posted by uke2se

The difference between this Svante and other Svantes is that this one was named from Svante Arrhenius. It says so right in the article. That's not pretentious. It's rather common to name your children from famous people.

Especially by a father, the actor Olof Thunberg, who was distantly related to Arrhenius.

[catsmate]

Originally Posted by Vixen

Autism is real and there is nothing cute or fashionable about it.

Excellent, you accept some reality.

Originally Posted by Vixen

Greta is likely a deeply anxious person and now she has to travel to the US by boat for fear of being not being seen to practice what she preaches.

And your basis, including expertise, for this diagnosis?

[catsmate]

Originally Posted by Vixen

Nobody said it was shameful. What is concerning IMV is that her parents advertise this fact as though it explains Greta's passion for climate change activism.

Evidence?

Originally Posted by Vixen

Half the people you meet with 'Aspergers' have diagnosed themself

Evidence?

Originally Posted by Vixen

It is her parents who see her condition as shameful in their need to 'explain' to the public and the media Greta's presence, which is charming and doesn't need to be justified.

Evidence?

Originally Posted by Vixen

I had an ex who started a school picket aged seven*, together with placards saying, 'We want to go to school', in response to there being some kind of strike by teachers. Whilst he was all for it at the time, it was actually his Mum's idea. Children are influenced by their parents.

Worthless anecdote.

Originally Posted by Vixen

Greta isn't the first to be concerned about the future of the world. That's not taking anything away from her.

Nice of you.

Originally Posted by Vixen

However. school kids going on strike is not anything new nor is campaigning against climate change.

And......?

Originally Posted by Vixen

I didn't like the way Greta's parents were manoeuvering all the publicity Greta got at the climate change conference.

Evidence?

Originally Posted by Vixen

They probably thought it a wizard idea for her to speak up 'on behalf of children'.

Evidence?

Originally Posted by Vixen

Wrong. This was how it was presented on a TV news broadcast. A serious looking 'school girl from Swedn' making her own way to Poland (iirc) a sad lonely figure with a placard begging at the door to be let in and then sitting on the floor by herself.

Originally Posted by Vixen

Far from being the random school kid as portrayed by the BBC she was actually pampered and had fanatical climate-change parents.

Evidence?

Originally Posted by Vixen

What appalled me was when they gave out a long list of her supposed disabilities. OCD at age twelve? Really? Selective mutism?

Evidence?

Originally Posted by Vixen

The DAILY MAIL carried an article

Seriously? You're quote the Fail and it's nonsense?

[catsmate]

Originally Posted by Vixen

https://www.aspergerstestsite.com/aq-test/

To take the Asperger’s test please answer the statements below and determine how strongly you agree or disagree with the statements. At the end of the test you will be given a score to indicate where you score on the spectrum.

And your evidence for this site's dubious test methodology is the cause for half the ASD diagnoses?

[catsmate]

Originally Posted by Vixen

I said 'half the people you meet with Aspergers have diagnosed themselves'.

And we're still waiting your evidence for this claim...

[catsmate]

Originally Posted by Vixen

For a start, it hasn't been a recognised disorder since early 2013.

https://www.livescience.com/37333-ds...-disorder.html

What more evidence do you need?

You might want to actually read that. It does not say what you claim it does.
Is this more carelessness (and desperation to support your point) or active dishonesty on your part?

[catsmate]

Originally Posted by Vixen

Not so.

However, I'll let you have the last word.

So no evidence then?

[jimbob]

Originally Posted by catsmate

Originally Posted by Vixen

Country Living - a 'Green' website is a 'right-wing source'?

Oh dear jeebus...

^^Wot you said.

It's a lifestyle magazine for the wealthy and aspiring wealthy.

[uke2se]

Originally Posted by Brainster

As a global warming semi-skeptic who still feels that green is better (and nuclear is better still), I wince when I see tone-deaf stuff like this being using to promote a pretty reasonable effort. Let's listen to this child because.... what? All the adults who are working against global warming who actually have college degrees and masters and doctorates aren't enough?

Because she's saying what the rest of use have been saying, and the difference is that people listen to her.

Deal with it.

[uke2se]

Originally Posted by Vixen

I didn't imply that at all. I clearly said her parents got her diagnosed.

And that's wrong. Her parents brought her to a doctor. The doctor diagnosed her.

Why do you hate science?

[Childlike Empress]

I noticed that at the recent EU parliamentary elections the Greens had big successes in several countries, especially in Germany where they topped all records. But not in Sweden where they shrunk. Do our resident Swedes think there is a connection between the Greta family and that result? Or am I evil for even asking that question?

[Vixen]

Originally Posted by catsmate

Any evidence for this one of your numerous assertions?


I can you haven't noticed, or can't be bothered to care, the planet on which we live (for the moment) is undergoing climactic alteration due to human activities.
This is somewhat important.


Unlike your efforts Ms. Thunberg is actually having an effect. Maybe you should have tried harder?



What "pretentiousness"? Other than in your imagination of course.
Arrhenius was a brilliant, polymathic, scientist, an early Nobel laureate and someone you'd have encountered early on if you'd studied science. He also crops up in the fields of toxicology, geology, astrobiology and climatography.
Hardly unusual for someone to be named after him.

I was at college with an Ernest who'd been named for another Nobel laureate.


Evidence for this claim of your?


Evidence for this claim of your?

I was in my local bookshop today cashing in a gift voucher. As I was paying, I noticed, there on the counter, a tiny little book by Greta Thunberg. I picked it up to skim through it and I was rather surprised how short it was, in very simple language and large font.

Clearly she is a big industry.

Not 'just a random school girl'.

A brand.

[Vixen]

Originally Posted by catsmate

Excellent, you accept some reality.


And your basis, including expertise, for this diagnosis?

One of my two optional specialist psychology topics was Child Psychology.

I may not be an expert but I have studied it.

ISTM Greta's mother is a pop psychlogist as she believes Greta's passion for climate change is heightened because of her [long list] of conditions.

IOW Andrew Bolt is only really quoting Thunberg's own mother.

Except he doesn't think it sweet.

[Vixen]

Originally Posted by uke2se

And that's wrong. Her parents brought her to a doctor. The doctor diagnosed her.

Why do you hate science?

When did you stop beating your wife?