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Tags dna evidence , murder cases , unsolved crimes , west memphis three

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Old 7th July 2014, 01:27 AM   #361
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Since I think there's a lot of evidence to indicate that they didn't do it, I'd be interested in the explanation for the statement Ampulla linked to. I can think of a number of reasons how that might have come about, but it would be useful to have the perspective from someone who has studied the case in depth.

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Old 7th July 2014, 04:47 PM   #362
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
Since I think there's a lot of evidence to indicate that they didn't do it, I'd be interested in the explanation for the statement Ampulla linked to. I can think of a number of reasons how that might have come about, but it would be useful to have the perspective from someone who has studied the case in depth.

Rolfe.
I read that also and can throw no light on it, or even imagine a circumstance making it explicable in the context of a false confession.
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Old 7th July 2014, 06:49 PM   #363
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Norfolk Four

Originally Posted by Samson View Post
I read that also and can throw no light on it, or even imagine a circumstance making it explicable in the context of a false confession.
I just skimmed the link but did not read it in detail. However, Joe Dick of the Norfolk Four believed his own false confession for a long time afterward, much longer than the other three servicemen (he was probably on board a ship in the harbor at the time of the crime). Both Mr. Dick and Mr. Misskelley are of limited intelligence; therefore, the case of the Norfolk Four may be more relevant than it would be otherwise.
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Old 7th July 2014, 07:50 PM   #364
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Originally Posted by Chris_Halkides View Post
I just skimmed the link but did not read it in detail. However, Joe Dick of the Norfolk Four believed his own false confession for a long time afterward, much longer than the other three servicemen (he was probably on board a ship in the harbor at the time of the crime). Both Mr. Dick and Mr. Misskelley are of limited intelligence; therefore, the case of the Norfolk Four may be more relevant than it would be otherwise.
One difference seems to be that Mr Dick realizes he is basically at fault for shafting the other crew members while I do not think Mr. Misskelley understands that. This is from his lawyer discussing the case on the extras on West of Memphis although makes pains to explain that he is not a sociopath just limited awareness. I think Joseph Dick is a bit more functional in that respect.
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Old 8th July 2014, 06:30 AM   #365
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Originally Posted by Ampulla of Vater View Post
I started looking into this case from the perspective of supporters vs. guilters. I wanted to see if all the hatred surrounding the Knox case is an anomaly or if it is typical. One of the things I came across is this confession:
http://callahan.8k.com/wm3/jmfeb.html

If this is accurate, it certainly sheds a different light on what I thought about this case. Misskelley's attorneys were present during this statement. They objected to him giving it, but I don't see how it could be coerced.
Its not really that hard to see how it was coerced. At the time that statement was made Jessie had been sentenced to spend the rest of his life in prison. From his perspective, doing a deal with the prosecutors to get his sentence reduced in return for testimony against the other two, was his only hope of getting out of prison before he died.

We know the prosecution was enticing him to as well, because they were filmed in Paradise Lost explaining to the victims' parents that they needed Jessie's testimony "real bad", and they would have to offer him reduced prison time in return.

Of course we also know that the prosecution was in no position to make those promises, because once someone has been convicted only the judge can alter the sentence. Once Judge Burnett made that clear to Jessie, there are no more confessions from Jessie.
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Old 8th July 2014, 09:40 AM   #366
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
You'll get on with presenting your detailed specialised knowledge then? Any time soon?
Still crickets...
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Old 10th July 2014, 03:37 PM   #367
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I am reading Devils Knot right now. . . .
Every one of the parents has dirt on them with the exception of Moores
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Old 10th July 2014, 04:01 PM   #368
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Originally Posted by Desert Fox View Post
I am reading Devils Knot right now. . . .
Every one of the parents has dirt on them with the exception of Moores
That seems to be the case. Michael Moore appears to be the only victim from an 'intact family' however one defines that term.

What difference does it make? I don't know. Maybe not much.
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Old 10th July 2014, 04:33 PM   #369
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Originally Posted by John Jones View Post
That seems to be the case. Michael Moore appears to be the only victim from an 'intact family' however one defines that term.

What difference does it make? I don't know. Maybe not much.
Looks like the police almost ignored the families in their investigation.
Seemed to zero in on a Satanic connection from the beginning and could not tell the difference between Wicca and Satanism.
Seems like a parade of fools all around.

Wish that Mara Leveritt would write an updated version of her book.
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Old 10th July 2014, 10:19 PM   #370
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I wanted to add, there is something really odd with John Byers
http://wm3.wikia.com/wiki/Melissa_Byers
Suggest you do read the documentation behind it
Here it is suggested that he set fire to a mobile home
http://callahan.8k.com/images2/byers...2-17-97_01.jpg
http://callahan.8k.com/images2/byers...2-17-97_02.jpg
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Old 12th July 2014, 09:02 AM   #371
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I want to add something that seems to never get stressed enough in documentaries.
Unless "Devil's Knot" is completely wrong, Judge Burnett is a prosecutor dressed in a set of judge's robes.
He seemed to almost always accept prosecutor motions and almost always deny defense motions. There was a case where would not let a defense witness almost say anything. He also let in witnesses on the prescription of mail order experts in the occult. Allowed the prosecution to try to get Jessie Misskelley to implicate the others in court without the defense attorney being able to speak to his client.
He also had closed door sessions with the prosecution only to discuss the case.

In addition, he is openly contemptful of the field of psychology.
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Old 16th July 2014, 06:16 PM   #372
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Guilty

The WM3 were fortunate to have strong advocates in their corner, but the core arguments for their innocence are unimpressive. If one looks at this case with a critical eye, it becomes apparent that these convicted murderers were the only viable suspects. Sourced fibers, no concrete alibis, Misskelley confessing SEVERAL times over, Echols having a history of mental illness/homicidal ideation, and witnesses placing Echols near the crime scene are just a few of the reasons why the WM3 were convicted of this brutal crime.

http://www.westmemphisthreefacts.com/
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Old 16th July 2014, 07:22 PM   #373
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If they were the only viable suspects I guess that's all the proof we need, right?

Frankly, if that list is the best evidence you can come up with, I'm amazed they were ever convicted in the first place.
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Old 16th July 2014, 07:51 PM   #374
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Originally Posted by JTF View Post
The WM3 were fortunate to have strong advocates in their corner, but the core arguments for their innocence are unimpressive. If one looks at this case with a critical eye, it becomes apparent that these convicted murderers were the only viable suspects. Sourced fibers, no concrete alibis, Misskelley confessing SEVERAL times over, Echols having a history of mental illness/homicidal ideation, and witnesses placing Echols near the crime scene are just a few of the reasons why the WM3 were convicted of this brutal crime.

http://www.westmemphisthreefacts.com/
That fiber evidence was 'consistent' with a garment found in Echol's mother's bedroom. Guess where she got that garment? Wal-mart. Wal-*****-mart. I'm sure every trailer park denizen in West Memphis had a garment from Wal-mart in their possession. It's entirely possible, if not likely, that Wal Mart was the only retail establishment within miles of the accused's residences.

Miskelly's clearly coached and coerced confession was retracted at least once more often than it was uttered. It contradicted known facts and was ruled inadmissible in Echols' and Baldwin's trial, but was considered by the jury despite instructions to the contrary.

The witnesses placing them near the crime scene were impeached by a family member of one of those witnesses, and so what? How many other people were 'near' the crime scene on May 5, 1993? The witnesses themselves and everyone looking for the missing children.
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Old 16th July 2014, 07:53 PM   #375
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Originally Posted by Matthew Best View Post
If they were the only viable suspects I guess that's all the proof we need, right?

Frankly, if that list is the best evidence you can come up with, I'm amazed they were ever convicted in the first place.
Exactly.
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Old 16th July 2014, 08:03 PM   #376
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Originally Posted by Desert Fox View Post
I want to add something that seems to never get stressed enough in documentaries.
Unless "Devil's Knot" is completely wrong, Judge Burnett is a prosecutor dressed in a set of judge's robes.
He seemed to almost always accept prosecutor motions and almost always deny defense motions. There was a case where would not let a defense witness almost say anything. He also let in witnesses on the prescription of mail order experts in the occult. Allowed the prosecution to try to get Jessie Misskelley to implicate the others in court without the defense attorney being able to speak to his client.
He also had closed door sessions with the prosecution only to discuss the case.

In addition, he is openly contemptful of the field of psychology.
Don't forget that Judge David 'Bozo' Burnette became the appellate court judge in the case who rejected every appeal the WM3 raised. He would have had to reverse his own judicial rulings in the case, or reject every appeal. Guess what he did?

If he had an ounce of integrity, he would have recused himself, but he didn't. He's one of the true villains in this whole sad, sorry affair.
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Old 16th July 2014, 09:49 PM   #377
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Originally Posted by JTF View Post
The WM3 were fortunate to have strong advocates in their corner, but the core arguments for their innocence are unimpressive. If one looks at this case with a critical eye, it becomes apparent that these convicted murderers were the only viable suspects. Sourced fibers, no concrete alibis, Misskelley confessing SEVERAL times over, Echols having a history of mental illness/homicidal ideation, and witnesses placing Echols near the crime scene are just a few of the reasons why the WM3 were convicted of this brutal crime.

http://www.westmemphisthreefacts.com/
I would argue that there are three viable suspects although #3 is not likely
They are
1. Terry Hobbs - most likely but nothing I think is certain - I certain would not convict him on what we have
2. John Mark Byers - I would not discount him even if attention has shifted to Terry Hobbs. Has a pretty shifty past and very well might have killed his wife. Looks like Judge Burnett might have also done some covering for him.
3. "Mr Bojangles" - Sorry but when your cops do an interview of the manager through the drive-through, you fail. The police actually lost the blood evidence as well.

Reading Aaron Hutcheson statements in "Devil's Knot" and how they changed is very interesting.
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Old 17th July 2014, 12:44 AM   #378
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I wanted to show something interesting from that source

After Lorri helped free him from prison, they moved into movie maker Peter Jackson’s apartment in the Tribeca section of New York City. They lived there rent-free until they left NYC in September 2012 and purchased a $290,000 home in Salem, Massachusetts - home of the Salem witch trials. Damien has said he believes that Salem (with its touristy witch supply shops and tarot card readers) is the only place in the world where he fits in. The early 1800s era house where he resides in Salem serves as home base for him to pursue his many current interests.

She is an architect. . . .$290,000 is potentially chump change for an architect and actually for the Salem MA area, $290,000 is a moderate priced home, nothing extravagant.
Here is an example of around that price range
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Old 17th July 2014, 03:40 AM   #379
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Originally Posted by JTF View Post
The WM3 were fortunate to have strong advocates in their corner, but the core arguments for their innocence are unimpressive. If one looks at this case with a critical eye, it becomes apparent that these convicted murderers were the only viable suspects. Sourced fibers, no concrete alibis, Misskelley confessing SEVERAL times over, Echols having a history of mental illness/homicidal ideation, and witnesses placing Echols near the crime scene are just a few of the reasons why the WM3 were convicted of this brutal crime.

http://www.westmemphisthreefacts.com/

You know, some accused people are guilty and some are not. Just because one case you are familiar with is in the former category doesn't mean they're all the same.

I think we may have had this conversation before.

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Old 17th July 2014, 02:38 PM   #380
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Embrace The Documented Record

ROLFE: I'm quite familiar with this case and other high profile murder cases. My post did not suggest that this case and the Jeffrey MacDonald case had any tangible similarities. What I did state was my opinion that there was ample evidence of their guilt and I included several examples of why they were convicted of this horrific crime.

I then posted a link to a website which ignores the assumptions, hype, distortions, and half-truths put forth by advocates for these convicted murderers. To be frank, the rebuttal posts indicated that most, if not all, of the posters have not read this website and/or have given short shrift to the information gathered by the original investigative team.

Examples include the infamous Walmart explanation for the inculpatory fiber evidence and the focus on only one of Miskelley's confessions. These specious arguments are simply fodder for those who have no interest in the hard work put in by this group of dogged investigators and lab technicians.

Those who see an injustice and/or conspiracy around every corner will continue to ignore the totality of the evidence that led to their conviction. They will also embrace every defense CLAIM regarding the "real" killers. No amount of undiluted fact will alter their postion on this case.

Byers, Hobbs, and Mr. Bojangles have joined the likes of John Mark Karr, Helena Stoeckley, Arthur Leigh Allen, and the hitman who shot JFK from the grassy knoll as red herrings in high profile murder cases. For those who have taken the time to read the documented record, the guilt of Echols, Baldwin, and Miskelley is a no-brainer.

http://www.westmemphisthreefacts.com
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Old 17th July 2014, 04:16 PM   #381
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Originally Posted by JTF View Post
What I did state was my opinion that there was ample evidence of their guilt and I included several examples of why they were convicted of this horrific crime.
None of your examples was even remotely convincing - they mostly seemed to be along the lines of "they weren't very nice people so they probably did it", which is a very common way of arriving at a miscarriage of justice. It's simply not enough to demonstrate that the accused aren't pleasant or have possibly committed other crimes - you need to prove that they committed this one.
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Old 17th July 2014, 05:33 PM   #382
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There is a term called "Gish Gallop"
It is throwing so many things at a person that it is impossible to answer them all. In the website linked above, I see strong shades of that.

Dr Mark Crislip has an interesting statement however with regards to studies such as homeopathy, chiropracty, and acupuncture. There are huge numbers of poorly done studies which the practitioners of there will throw out. The problem is that no matter how many cow pies you put togetherm, you can never make anything that tastes good.

As such, I am only going to deal with the first item:
FACT - JESSIE MISSKELLEY CONFESSED NUMEROUS TIMES:
The Paradise Lost and West of Memphis documentaries and the book and movie Devil's Knot completely leave out the fact Jessie Misskelley confessed to the murders numerous times both before and after he was convicted.


First off, this is incorrect. The book "Devil's Knot" clearly states that he did make multiple confessions. It does not really matter because it does not deal with the real problem.

The real problems are
1. From watching released interviews, it is clear that he was lead through the confessor by the interviewing officer. You can see that he did not come up with those answers himself but instead were fed to him by the officer.
2. The confession does not really fit the crime scene. Gives the wrong times and what he said happen is not consistent with the events.
3. Jessie Misskelley is very low functioning. Now, there are high function individuals who confess to crimes they do not commit like Marty Tankleff but it does not help. In fact, of interest is that Joseph Dick (of the Norfolk Four) is also low functioning although higher functioning that Jessie Misskelley. Similar as in they both made multiple confessions which do not fit with facts of the crime.
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Old 21st July 2014, 09:42 AM   #383
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hair analysis and cognitive bias

The question of fiber analysis is pertinent to the evidence against Jason Baldwin IIUC. I realize that drawing a comparison between hair analysis and fiber analysis is not without its drawbacks. Yet hair analysis is not the only branch of forensics that is fraught with the problem of cognitive bias. In the essay CSI for Real, Roger Koppl wrote, "Larry S. Miller demonstrates an excellent example of cognitive bias at play. He asked a group of 14 students trained in hair analysis, all of whom met the basic requirements for expert testimony on human hair identification in courts of law, to examine four cases each. For each student, two cases were presented the usual way: They were given two samples and told that one was from the crime scene and the other from the suspect. The other two cases were presented through a forensic line- up. The known sample from the imaginary crime scene was compared to five suspect-known hair samples. In all 56 cases, there were in reality no true matches. The first group of cases yielded an error rate of 30.8 percent; the second group an error rate of only 3.8 percent.12"
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Old 21st July 2014, 10:03 AM   #384
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Originally Posted by Chris_Halkides View Post
The question of fiber analysis is pertinent to the evidence against Jason Baldwin IIUC. I realize that drawing a comparison between hair analysis and fiber analysis is not without its drawbacks. Yet hair analysis is not the only branch of forensics that is fraught with the problem of cognitive bias. In the essay CSI for Real, Roger Koppl wrote, "Larry S. Miller demonstrates an excellent example of cognitive bias at play. He asked a group of 14 students trained in hair analysis, all of whom met the basic requirements for expert testimony on human hair identification in courts of law, to examine four cases each. For each student, two cases were presented the usual way: They were given two samples and told that one was from the crime scene and the other from the suspect. The other two cases were presented through a forensic line- up. The known sample from the imaginary crime scene was compared to five suspect-known hair samples. In all 56 cases, there were in reality no true matches. The first group of cases yielded an error rate of 30.8 percent; the second group an error rate of only 3.8 percent.12"
Not only that, if they had taken fiber samples from every trailer in Echols' trailer park, I dare speculate that at least 30% of them would have fibers equally 'consistent' with the fibers from the crime scene. They came from a Walmart, ffs.
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Old 22nd July 2014, 03:26 AM   #385
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I know this is a bit of an aside but is the Wayne Williams fiber evidence the same situation? I have heard that it was a very unusual fiber but skeptical.
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Old 22nd July 2014, 10:21 AM   #386
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Originally Posted by Desert Fox View Post
I know this is a bit of an aside but is the Wayne Williams fiber evidence the same situation? I have heard that it was a very unusual fiber but skeptical.
IIRC, the fiber in the Wayne Williams case was relatively rare, and could be traced to specific automobile makes and models, and that Williams happened to own on of these vehicles. I could be wrong about this.

The fibers in the WM3 case could possibly be traced to the nation's largest retail operation, and often the only one in small towns. Those fibers were consist with garments sold in Walmart. Specifically, a bath robe.
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Old 22nd July 2014, 12:58 PM   #387
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None of the fibres used in the prosecution of the wm3 were consistent with any garments belonging to the three. They were all said to be consistent with things like a toilet seat cover from Jason's home, Damien's brother's t shirt, Jason's mother's bath robe. Add to that that we're supposed to accept that the hairs at the crime scene were secondary transfer and irrelevant to the crime. So we have a crime scene full of secondary transfer and no primary transfer found from the killers to the victims - not an impossible scenario given that the crime scene was poorly handled, but still an unlikely one when there are supposedly three killers. You'd think a hair or something would have been found belonging to at least one of them, especially as there are plenty of hairs there consistent with all three of the victims.

Another thing to take into account with the fibres - the police took around 90 items each from the homes of Damien, Jason and Jessie for testing. They took only 6 items each from the homes of Christopher Byers and Michael Moore for exclusionary testing, and nothing at all from Steven Branch's home. As these were all fibres from mass produced garments I wonder if they'd taken an equal amount of items from each of the victims and suspects homes for testing, would they have found those fibres to be consistent with garments from the victims' homes too?
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Old 8th August 2014, 04:06 PM   #388
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Originally Posted by mojoe View Post
....my real interest is in the interaction between nons and supporters. I find it interesting that they see the same evidence and interpret it so differently. I have been reading various non and supporter sites, including Callahans, since before the second documentary. After reading all sides I came to my own conclusion. As I said before my interest ended with deal.
It certainly is rather amusing to watch both sides of the debate draw polar opposite conclusions from the same some or another particular fact(s). And never more so than when BOTH side's conclusion then manages to screw the pooch. A typical example being Chupacabras claiming the Alford plea amounts to a tacit prosecutorial admission of factual innocence while the Anti-Dammys claim it's a tacit WM3 admission of factual guilt.

For my money though, nothing tickles the irony bone more than watching the usual suspects, now that they think they've found an even better patsy, dribbling over themselves in the pretense that they never intended to suggest John Mark Byers was the "real killer". And how, all along, they only ever meant to show that he- despite his faults- is really nothing but a lovable eccentric. Just like 'ole Damien.

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Old 8th August 2014, 06:09 PM   #389
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There is an important different between Byers and Damien. Damien does not have any connection with the murdered children while Byers does. While not always the case, it is often best to look to those close to home. Your significant other gets murdered, you will be the first suspect.

I don't know if Byers was the killer, I don't know if Hobbs is the killer, and I don't know if it is somebody else. We are almost certain to never know who committed the crimes. I am just arguing that I do not think Byers can be excluded.
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Old 27th February 2015, 02:23 PM   #390
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West Memphis Three Discussion

Originally Posted by luchog View Post
There's a small vocal constituent who still insists on their guilt. Part of it is the "police/judiciary can do no wrong" attitude we've seen prevalent here; and the "OMG devil worshippers!!!" ignorant crap all too common in the bible belt. The other part is the fact that Echols is mentally ill and prone to delusions; which in the US means that he's clearly an evil person and needs to die. (The way mental illness is stigmatized and treated in this country is barely short of barbaric.)

There will always be those who are completely immune to any evidence, however overwhelming, that contradicts their own personal prejudices.
They have a list of evidence just not very good evidence
http://www.westmemphisthreefacts.com/
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Old 27th February 2015, 03:34 PM   #391
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Bump for Desert Fox in the hope the thread can be moved to Trials and Errors.
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Old 27th February 2015, 06:00 PM   #392
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Originally Posted by Desert Fox View Post
They have a list of evidence just not very good evidence
http://www.westmemphisthreefacts.com/

I hope you don't mind the merge, Desert Fox. It escalated a bit further than I anticipated.

There was an even earlier thread, before the Alford Plea, and a new poster piled into that insisting that he was an expert in the case and the boys were certainly guilty. Here's his first post.

Originally Posted by jharyn View Post
Here is a link to the site that contains all known official documents that are available outside of the evidence room that I know of:

http://callahan.8k.com/

The WM3 were not railroaded, they were not convicted because of the color of clothing or the music they preferred.

The three convicted are guilty. The hearing in my opinion will go no where because the defense has never produced any evidence that shows their innocence by any stretch of the imagination. They only have outright lies and far fetched theories that have never been backed up with anything resembling evidence.

This hearing will go nowhere and is a waste of time and money.

He took a bit of a pasting after that, but it's interesting reading. The only person I've seen even trying to make a case for guilt, but all he could say is, here's a link to a site hosting a shedload of original trial documents, proof of guilt is in there, and no I will not provide a summary, a precis or even a road map.
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Old 27th February 2015, 06:19 PM   #393
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
Bump for Desert Fox in the hope the thread can be moved to Trials and Errors.

Agreed. I started this thread. I haunts me after all these years. Every detail of this case is suspicious.
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Old 27th February 2015, 06:24 PM   #394
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The WM3 were not railroaded, they were not convicted because of the color of clothing or the music they preferred.

The three convicted are guilty. The hearing in my opinion will go no where because the defense has never produced any evidence that shows their innocence by any stretch of the imagination. They only have outright lies and far fetched theories that have never been backed up with anything resembling evidence.


I cannot prove that I am innocent of the crime. . . . .You can trust my answer that I never have been to Arkansas but I would have a devil of a time proving it. That is why it is the prosecutors job to show guilt not the defendant to show innocence.
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Old 27th February 2015, 06:29 PM   #395
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double post. Please delete.
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Old 27th February 2015, 06:31 PM   #396
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Originally Posted by Desert Fox View Post
The WM3 were not railroaded, they were not convicted because of the color of clothing or the music they preferred.

The three convicted are guilty. The hearing in my opinion will go no where because the defense has never produced any evidence that shows their innocence by any stretch of the imagination. They only have outright lies and far fetched theories that have never been backed up with anything resembling evidence.

.

Who are you quoting? David Burnett? Gary Gitchell? Bryn Ridge?
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Old 27th February 2015, 06:43 PM   #397
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Originally Posted by Desert Fox View Post
The WM3 were not railroaded, they were not convicted because of the color of clothing or the music they preferred.

The three convicted are guilty. The hearing in my opinion will go no where because the defense has never produced any evidence that shows their innocence by any stretch of the imagination. They only have outright lies and far fetched theories that have never been backed up with anything resembling evidence.


I cannot prove that I am innocent of the crime. . . . .You can trust my answer that I never have been to Arkansas but I would have a devil of a time proving it. That is why it is the prosecutors job to show guilt not the defendant to show innocence.

IANAL, but I think the presumption of innocence is nullified once a person has already been convicted.
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Old 27th February 2015, 06:43 PM   #398
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Originally Posted by John Jones View Post
Who are you quoting? David Burnett? Gary Gitchell? Bryn Ridge?
Rolfe quoting jharyn. . . .Only two posts above mine
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Old 27th February 2015, 06:45 PM   #399
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Originally Posted by John Jones View Post
IANAL, but I think the presumption of innocence is nullified once a person has already been convicted.
There is enough evidence to have the conviction overturned (the tainted juror is enough for that) and a new trial. . . .In a new trial, you then return to a presumption of innocence.
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Old 27th February 2015, 06:48 PM   #400
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Originally Posted by Desert Fox View Post
Rolfe quoting jharyn. . . .Only two posts above mine
OK. It's easy to get lost in nested quotes. For me, anyway.
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