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Tags jeremy bamber , Julie Mugford , murder cases , Nevill Bamber , Sheila Bamber

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Old 18th October 2016, 03:06 PM   #281
Samson
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
Therein lies the root of your problem, Samson: instead of focusing on trying to work out who is guilty and who is the victim of a miscarriage, you have just made it clear you make up your mind then "discuss" your decision.
I explained with considerable detail why I have concluded Bamber is innocent, and it is partly because the Mugford testimony has been explained, immunity, motive and so on. But the overriding problem is that Sheila so obviously committed suicide when examining the photographs. The idea of a coerced pose is further compromised by the fact her mother's body is in a bloody heap nearby, scarcely suggesting any compliant behaviour would help her.

I see no issue with moving right on to discussing how to fastest get the poor sucker out of jail. Of course this does not apply to you Mike, because you don't agree he is innocent.
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Old 19th October 2016, 12:03 AM   #282
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Bear in mind, Samson, that the police photos had been re-posed in some instances. They weren't of the scene as found, but were of the aftermath of the tramping through the crime-scene of some 40 or more officers, who moved stuff around. Relying on them to come to the conclusion that it was "obviously suicide" is flawed, in my view. You're talking to someone who held doubts about Bamber's guilt for 20 or more years, BTW.
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Old 19th October 2016, 02:43 AM   #283
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Originally Posted by DuvalHMFIC View Post
I'll admit I didn't really read the thread so maybe it's already been said, but is there ever anyone, anywhere that is guilty in Samson's world?
If they're men who've killed women, seemingly not.
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Old 19th October 2016, 02:49 AM   #284
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
but I actually believe in my basic research,
Are you aware of the Dunning–Kruger effect?

Originally Posted by Samson View Post
Mugford's story was too detailed to be made up.
Unsupported and completely subjective opinion.

Originally Posted by Samson View Post
Just today on IA Charlie pointed out:<snip>
More unsupported opinions laced with factual inaccuracies and mistakes.

Originally Posted by Samson View Post
Summary: Never trust an informant, never believe a word they say without corroboration, wire them up whenever possible.
Correct. And her evidence wasn't used without supporting evidence.

Originally Posted by Samson View Post
I realize the cops who investigated Bamber were incompetent,
Further opinion.

Originally Posted by Samson View Post
They must have had some reason for ignoring those procedures with Mugford.
You really should do some basic research on her input to the case.

Originally Posted by Samson View Post
The only reason I can think of is that they didn't believe a word she said.
Unsupported and completely biased opinion.

Originally Posted by Samson View Post
Can anyone think of a more likely reason?
Because her input led to new lines of enquiry that eventually proved Bamber guilty of a horrible quintuple murder for personal gain.

Originally Posted by Samson View Post
Can you, catsmate, deliver a death blow to that reasoning?
What "reasoning"? You're merely made a number of unsupported accusations.
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Old 19th October 2016, 03:02 AM   #285
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That was Charlie's post from IA you are responding to. There's a lively thread running there, the crux of the matter is the crown have conceded Sheila was shot without a silencer, so the blood in it can't be hers.
That means Robert Boutflour found it and scratched the under side of the mantle piece.
Bamber was framed by the jealous old monster.
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Old 19th October 2016, 03:29 AM   #286
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
........the crown have conceded Sheila was shot without a silencer.........
When did this happen? There isn't an ongoing reinvestigation or trial, so what does "the crown" actually mean in this context? There is no prosecution team, or anyone else I can think of who could possibly concede such a point.
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Old 19th October 2016, 03:34 AM   #287
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
..I realize the cops who investigated Bamber were incompetent.....
Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
......Further opinion.......
To be fair, I don't think you'll find anyone disagreeing with that assessment, including Essex Police themselves. They ballsed the whole thing up from start to finish, including having some 40 officers tramping all over the crime scene, not recording the crime scene intact, losing records of phone calls, and destroying evidence before all the appeals were finished.
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Old 19th October 2016, 03:44 AM   #288
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
When did this happen? There isn't an ongoing reinvestigation or trial, so what does "the crown" actually mean in this context? There is no prosecution team, or anyone else I can think of who could possibly concede such a point.
David 1918 at IA appears close to the defence team. He really does know his stuff, and this seems to be the state of play.
All tests show that there is a different soot pattern with a silencer with a contact wound, and Sheila's bullet holes are graphically clean.
The reason I quote Charlie is he is a specialist in the context of amateur crime analysis. Professionals are paid to get the answer you want, someone like Charlie is a reliable encyclopedic source with no vested interest.

"Suicide as plain as a can of spilled paint" quoth he. Have you seen the photos?
Not all are doctored, and just like the Robin Bain pathologist, first observations rule. In that case Alec Dempster said the 4 mil hole with a 10 mil ring of soot is a CONTACT WOUND, the gun touching the temple.
But the crown prosecuted on a gun a meter away, and got away with it.
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Old 19th October 2016, 05:21 AM   #289
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None of which answers my question, in the least. You claimed the crown had accepted that Sheila was shot without a silencer. Who exactly do you mean by "the crown"?
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Old 19th October 2016, 05:29 AM   #290
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
None of which answers my question, in the least. You claimed the crown had accepted that Sheila was shot without a silencer. Who exactly do you mean by "the crown"?
I will come back to this, but it is since 2002 hearing.
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Old 19th October 2016, 06:08 AM   #291
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
That was Charlie's post from IA you are responding to.
No. I was responding to your post here.

Originally Posted by Samson View Post
the crown have conceded Sheila was shot without a silencer, so the blood in it can't be hers.
Citation required.

Originally Posted by Samson View Post
That means Robert Boutflour found it and scratched the under side of the mantle piece.
Rubbish.

Originally Posted by Samson View Post
Bamber was framed by the jealous old monster.
Still an unsupported assertion.
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Old 19th October 2016, 06:13 AM   #292
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
David 1918 at IA appears close to the defence team.


Originally Posted by Samson View Post
He really does know his stuff,


Originally Posted by Samson View Post
and this seems to be the state of play.


Originally Posted by Samson View Post
All tests show that there is a different soot pattern with a silencer with a contact wound, and Sheila's bullet holes are graphically clean.
Right...
Who carried out the tests? When? By what authority?
Unless the court ordered additional testing, which would be in the context of an appeal (which hasn't be lodged), I do not believe your assertion.

Originally Posted by Samson View Post
The reason I quote Charlie is he is a specialist in the context of amateur crime analysis.
Right......


Originally Posted by Samson View Post
Professionals are paid to get the answer you want, someone like Charlie is a reliable encyclopedic source with no vested interest.


Originally Posted by Samson View Post
"Suicide as plain as a can of spilled paint" quoth he.
Right......


Originally Posted by Samson View Post
Have you seen the photos?
Yes.

Originally Posted by Samson View Post
Not all are doctored,
Your evidence that any were "doctored"?
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As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.
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Old 19th October 2016, 06:20 AM   #293
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
I will come back to this, but it is since 2002 hearing.
That is a blatant lie.
The Court of Appeal, which upheld the conviction in 2002, heard no such admission from the Crown.
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As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.
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Old 19th October 2016, 11:13 AM   #294
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Here is Jeremy Bamber's own website.

You'd think that if "the crown has accepted that Sheila was shot without the silencer" that Bamber himself would have mentioned it, wouldn't you? In fact he says "I believe it will be (accepted by the crown at any new appeal)". There is certainly a clip (made in 2012) making the claim that Bambi was shot without the silencer being on the gun, but no claim anywhere that this evidence has been accepted by the crown.

Someone, somewhere, is telling porkies about this.
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Old 19th October 2016, 12:14 PM   #295
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
Here is Jeremy Bamber's own website.

You'd think that if "the crown has accepted that Sheila was shot without the silencer" that Bamber himself would have mentioned it, wouldn't you? In fact he says "I believe it will be (accepted by the crown at any new appeal)". There is certainly a clip (made in 2012) making the claim that Bambi was shot without the silencer being on the gun, but no claim anywhere that this evidence has been accepted by the crown.

Someone, somewhere, is telling porkies about this.
I will find out. I think the argument becomes he removed the silencer after the struggle with Neville that got the paint on it, then shot the kids, then Sheila.
I suppose she was having a cuppa during all this waiting her turn.
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Old 19th October 2016, 12:30 PM   #296
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Never mind that. I'm not too interested ATM in what was going on in the farmhouse. First things first. I am interested in the claim that somehow this "evidence" has been accepted by "the crown".
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Old 19th October 2016, 01:01 PM   #297
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
Never mind that. I'm not too interested ATM in what was going on in the farmhouse. First things first. I am interested in the claim that somehow this "evidence" has been accepted by "the crown".
I posted this to IA

Question for David1819:

Is there an acceptance by the crown the silencer was absent when Sheila was shot?

Link to the thread

http://www.injusticeanywhereforum.co...p?f=123&t=2931

Last edited by Samson; 19th October 2016 at 01:02 PM.
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Old 19th October 2016, 05:09 PM   #298
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
I posted this to IA

Question for David1819:

Is there an acceptance by the crown the silencer was absent when Sheila was shot?

Link to the thread

http://www.injusticeanywhereforum.co...p?f=123&t=2931
David1819's answer:

"Yes but its not explicit or clear-cut."

Everyone gets a prize.
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Old 21st October 2016, 12:22 AM   #299
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
David1819's answer:

"Yes but its not explicit or clear-cut."

Everyone gets a prize.
No. Whoever answered that doesn't get a prize at all. That is an admission that no such thing has been accepted, and it is no explanation for whom "The Crown" actually is. Does he mean the Crown Prosecution Service? More likely the Criminal Cases Review Commission (although it is ridiculous to suggest that they represent "the Crown")? Is the CPRC actively looking at this case? And just exactly what are the credentials claimed by the person posting at IA? What is his/ her connection with these or other bodies? I'm trying to get a picture of why you think that his posts should be treated with such reverence.

You have ascribed too much credence to a statement by some guy on the internet, without asking the obvious questions. You shouldn't be passing on claims such as "accepted by The Crown" with the absolute certainty that you did without doing some very basic checks first. You do realise, don't you, that if this claim of yours were the actuality, then the story would be on the front page of every newspaper, and the case would be heading back to court? Is there any reason you can think of why this isn't happening?
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Old 21st October 2016, 01:13 AM   #300
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
No. Whoever answered that doesn't get a prize at all. That is an admission that no such thing has been accepted, and it is no explanation for whom "The Crown" actually is. Does he mean the Crown Prosecution Service? More likely the Criminal Cases Review Commission (although it is ridiculous to suggest that they represent "the Crown")? Is the CPRC actively looking at this case? And just exactly what are the credentials claimed by the person posting at IA? What is his/ her connection with these or other bodies? I'm trying to get a picture of why you think that his posts should be treated with such reverence.

You have ascribed too much credence to a statement by some guy on the internet, without asking the obvious questions. You shouldn't be passing on claims such as "accepted by The Crown" with the absolute certainty that you did without doing some very basic checks first. You do realise, don't you, that if this claim of yours were the actuality, then the story would be on the front page of every newspaper, and the case would be heading back to court? Is there any reason you can think of why this isn't happening?
I could write a fair essay on all that, essentially there is a thread here, a thread on IA, the "blue" forum and the "red" forum.

On IA I might say right now

"Charlie's good tonight".

Charlie is around 100% certain Jeremy Bamber has been stitched up, and I am the same, as is the activist David !819, the Bain specialist Nostalgia-NZ and Holly Goodhead, admin from red forum.

Bamber never did that crime, which ironically was the buzz where you were for awhile if I remember correctly.

ETA I realise you have posted IA, the thread is genuinely interesting there.

Last edited by Samson; 21st October 2016 at 01:19 AM.
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Old 21st October 2016, 01:25 AM   #301
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
.......Bamber never did that crime, which ironically was the buzz where you were for awhile if I remember correctly........
Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
.......You're talking to someone who held doubts about Bamber's guilt for 20 or more years, BTW.
You're far too absolutist for my taste. In a world of grey, you see only in black and white.
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Old 21st October 2016, 02:45 AM   #302
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
You're far too absolutist for my taste. In a world of grey, you see only in black and white.
In crime only one thing happened. Controversial cases are binary so once the impossible is dispensed with the answer stands resolute.
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Old 21st October 2016, 03:49 AM   #303
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
In crime only one thing happened......
But you write as though you know exactly what happened. You don't. I don't either.
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Old 19th January 2017, 09:56 AM   #304
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Bump. Given that Samson is derailing a Lindy Chamberlain thread with claims about Gambler's innocence I think it may be useful to resurrect this one.
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Old 19th January 2017, 10:18 AM   #305
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Bamber shot his mother in bed, his father in the bedroom (the stair theory has been shredded), the twins in their bedroom, and shot his sister in the throat whilst she was standing up. She fell in a heap, but didn't die, so he shot her again where she lay, positioned the rifle on as though she had committed suicide, exited the house through a window, went home and rang the police with a bogus story about a call from his father. Unfortunately for him, he told his girlfriend, and she told the police.

Those trying to manufacture Sheila's guilt have to air-brush away the obvious signs of a fight in the kitchen (because there are no forensics on Sheila suggesting she was in a fight). They have to invent a new location for Nevil's shooting (despite all the bullet casings being in the bedroom) because they need Nevil to be downstairs at the time Sheila shot her mother. They also have to invent some twaddle to cover the fact that Sheila is supposed to have "gone berserk with a gun" before killing anyone, and yet 3 people in the house were asleep in bed when shot.

Really, Bamber supporters are just obsessives with no grasp of reality. And believe it or not, not a single second of Bamber's incarceration has been the fault of Theresa May. Yes, really!
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Old 19th January 2017, 10:23 AM   #306
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
The crucial point is that no crime reconstruction can properly incorporate Jeremy...
Yes it can. It's really really simple.

Quote:
Similarly Jeremy is supposed to march his family around at gunpoint before killing them
How?....
No. Gormless comment reveals absolutely no clue about the facts of the case. Three of them died in (or alongside) bed having been shot whilst asleep. How do you march around in bed? You had Nevil falling down the stairs after being shot, and landing in the coal scuttle in the kitchen 15 metres away. Yep, folks, that's what we're up against. Any wonder that I can't be bothered?
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Old 19th January 2017, 05:41 PM   #307
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Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
Bump. Given that Samson is derailing a Lindy Chamberlain thread with claims about Gambler's innocence I think it may be useful to resurrect this one.
Correction. I made a comparison between the forensics in Chamberlain, Lundy and BAMBER leading to a false prosecutions and convictions.

Now we are debating here, maybe you can give a detailed crime reconstruction catsmate. Mike has attempted one that does not work on IA.

When I can find it I will post mine. IT WORKS.

The prosecution theory repeated by Carol Ann Lee is a logistical disaster, it is completely impossible according to known bullet trajectories through Nevill and Sheila.
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Old 10th November 2017, 09:57 AM   #308
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Originally Posted by Fixit View Post
......I do remember that crime scene enactment you did which ultimately favoured the innocence of Jeremy Bamber but which however upset you by reason that it appeared not to be the result you wanted..........
Now you're just making stuff up. All the drawings I did showed the impossibility of Nevil being shot on the stairs, which was the only way the "innocent" brigade could spin the story to support their case. As for "upset".........yes, I was, by the moronic insistence that A/ the Home Office has a role in these criminal justice matters and B/ that Theresa May was personally responsible for Bamber remaining inside. I can't argue with that level of stupid.

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Last edited by zooterkin; 10th November 2017 at 11:36 PM.
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Old 10th November 2017, 10:01 AM   #309
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Originally Posted by Essexman View Post
......There was nothing wrong with the initial crime-scene investigation.......


At least 40 people trampling through it, no guard placed on it, no security tape, no record of visitors, stuff (including the rifle) moved prior to being photographed. No, nothing wrong with that at all.....
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Old 10th November 2017, 11:56 AM   #310
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
Now you're just making stuff up. All the drawings I did showed the impossibility of Nevil being shot on the stairs, which was the only way the "innocent" brigade could spin the story to support their case. As for "upset".........yes, I was, by the moronic insistence that A/ the Home Office has a role in these criminal justice matters and B/ that Theresa May was personally responsible for Bamber remaining inside. I can't argue with that level of stupid.
You're making stuff up. You didn't know that you had shown the impossibility of Neville having been shot on the stairs until it was pointed out to you. I gather you're still sore about that. Bad luck, not much better than the copper's that re-solved the case after it was worked out as being a simple murder suicide. But you contributed to helping others understand that - even though it was their intention. You seem to also be confused that I said anything at all about your dear leader. Glad to see you laugh about a botched inquiry that sent a man away for life because of the certainty of what you know.
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Old 10th November 2017, 01:10 PM   #311
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Originally Posted by Fixit View Post
........You seem to also be confused that I said anything at all about your dear leader......
No, it's you who is confused. The thing which got me angry, frustrated, and then away from that other forum was Samson's insistence that May was responsible for Bamber being in prison, and that the Home Office had responsibility for criminal justice (hint: there's a reason the Ministry of Justice is called what it's called). As I said, that is a level of stupid I can't cope with.
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Old 10th November 2017, 01:24 PM   #312
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
Now you're just making stuff up. All the drawings I did showed the impossibility of Nevil being shot on the stairs, which was the only way the "innocent" brigade could spin the story to support their case. .

A reconstruction based on accurate dimensions shows it is very possible. Your drawings that allegedly prove otherwise must have involved the bedroom door being shut.







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Old 10th November 2017, 01:34 PM   #313
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Originally Posted by Essexman View Post
A reconstruction based on accurate dimensions shows it is very possible. Your drawings that allegedly prove otherwise must have involved the bedroom door being shut.

https://s1.postimg.org/1kxo33enof/wireframe.jpg

https://s1.postimg.org/638wfwz4vj/stairshot1.png

https://s1.postimg.org/44cppkzmlr/stairshot6.png

https://s1.postimg.org/5aw0y6oqwv/stairshot334.png
You might want to have a little look at Rule 11, and have a look at the angle of the bullet entry wounds. Further, two of the shots were from within a matter of inches, making their angle upwards if at the bedroom door, rather than the downwards angle of the entry wounds.
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Last edited by MikeG; 10th November 2017 at 01:36 PM.
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Old 11th November 2017, 01:59 AM   #314
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Here is a picture of a gun sound moderator (silencer).

Sheila Caffell's blood was found inside this moderator, identified in 1985 as blood group A. DNA was identified as hers many years later, with the advances in forensic science. 17 out of 20 alleles match Sheila Caffell. Under UK law only 11 matches is needed to make the identification a legally sound one.

Thus, there is no way Caffell could have shot herself in the neck (twice!) with this silencer attached, and returned it to the cupboard where it was found.
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Old 11th November 2017, 05:50 PM   #315
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Here is a picture of a gun sound moderator (silencer).

Sheila Caffell's blood was found inside this moderator, identified in 1985 as blood group A. DNA was identified as hers many years later, with the advances in forensic science. 17 out of 20 alleles match Sheila Caffell. Under UK law only 11 matches is needed to make the identification a legally sound one.

Thus, there is no way Caffell could have shot herself in the neck (twice!) with this silencer attached, and returned it to the cupboard where it was found.

Bamber - New Evidence Tested by Firearms Expert Philip Boyce
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Old 12th November 2017, 09:27 AM   #316
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Originally Posted by Essexman View Post
That would appear be the same "new evidence " presented to the CCRC. five years ago and rejected by them after a detailed rebuttal.
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Old 12th November 2017, 02:25 PM   #317
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Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
That would appear be the same "new evidence " presented to the CCRC. five years ago and rejected by them after a detailed rebuttal.
Which is the whole problem with the case. If all we have is the crime scene the last body says suicide. Everything else is made up. No one lies down beside their dead mother to get the same treatment.
No one, not even nutcase Sheila.
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Old 12th November 2017, 03:49 PM   #318
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Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
That would appear be the same "new evidence " presented to the CCRC. five years ago and rejected by them after a detailed rebuttal.

The CCRC provided no counter expert testimony to challenge the muzzle imprints on Sheila's chin/neck, as seen in the video.


I cannot attach the document on this site due to file size limits. So I have uploaded it here...Bamber v CCRC 2012
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Old 12th November 2017, 03:54 PM   #319
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Have you ever heard of a staged crime scene?

Or perhaps you surmise that after the first shot to Ms Caffell's neck, she took the time to bleed on the Bible found on her body, then shut the Bible, then reopen it and arrange it on herself. After her death she magically cleaned her blood from the rifle barrel (the last shot was a contact wound so blood would have been blown back into the barrel), and deposited her blood into the moderator before replacing it in the gun cupboard. Despite being dead, she slid from an almost flat position with her head propped up on a bedside cabinet to being fully laid down, rucking up her nightdress in the process but then pulling only the front of her nightdress down, leaving it rucked up at the back.
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Old 12th November 2017, 06:36 PM   #320
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Originally Posted by Agatha View Post
Have you ever heard of a staged crime scene?

Or perhaps you surmise that after the first shot to Ms Caffell's neck, she took the time to bleed on the Bible found on her body, then shut the Bible, then reopen it and arrange it on herself. After her death she magically cleaned her blood from the rifle barrel (the last shot was a contact wound so blood would have been blown back into the barrel), and deposited her blood into the moderator before replacing it in the gun cupboard. Despite being dead, she slid from an almost flat position with her head propped up on a bedside cabinet to being fully laid down, rucking up her nightdress in the process but then pulling only the front of her nightdress down, leaving it rucked up at the back.
No need for conjecture on what you bring up.

Blood does not always end up in the barrel of the gun.

"Blood is more often detected on the outside of the muzzle than inside the barrel. In a study of 653 revolvers, 242 pistols, 181 shotguns, and 124 rifles used in suicides, blood was detected on the barrel 74% of the time for revolvers, 76% for pistols, 85% for shotguns, and 81% for rifles. 4 In contrast, blood was detected inside the barrel in 53% of the revolvers, 57% of pistols, 72% of shotguns, and 58% of rifles. The presence of blood inside the barrel of a gun indicates that the weapon was within a few inches of the body at the time of discharge. Absence of blood on or in the barrel does not preclude a close range or contact wound."
Page 362 of Practical Aspects of Firearms, Ballistics, and Forensic Techniques by Vincent J.M. DiMaio

If you wish to argue that a .22lr rifle is powerful enough to create blood drawback and Jeremy committed the crime with silencer attached there is a big problem with that argument. Reason being one of the twins suffered three contact wounds, yet none of his blood grouping was found in the baffles of the silencer.

As Sheila's body and the bible being moved after she died. Police documents confirm they have moved things around before and during the photographs were taken. Lo and behold Sheila's body and the bible.

“Photo of Sheila not in same position as when I saw it”
Head too close to bedside table
Not sure about angle of head but something not right
No recollection of gun
Bible shown next to body, was level with waist 12” – 18” away"


Delgado Dickinson page 8

The abrasion patterns caused by the contact wounds to Sheila's chin and neck confirm the silencer was not on the gun when the fatal shots were fired. Thus the blood was planted in the silencer to help secure a conviction. As for how and who is what requires a degree of surmising and guesswork. However its not difficult to narrow down a list of conspirators who had means, motive and opportunity. That is having access to the silencer and access to Sheila's blood.

Last edited by Essexman; 12th November 2017 at 06:38 PM.
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