ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Trials and Errors
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags jeremy bamber , Julie Mugford , murder cases , Nevill Bamber , Sheila Bamber

Reply
Old 13th November 2017, 02:32 AM   #321
Samson
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 7,910
Originally Posted by Agatha View Post
Have you ever heard of a staged crime scene?

Or perhaps you surmise that after the first shot to Ms Caffell's neck, she took the time to bleed on the Bible found on her body, then shut the Bible, then reopen it and arrange it on herself. After her death she magically cleaned her blood from the rifle barrel (the last shot was a contact wound so blood would have been blown back into the barrel), and deposited her blood into the moderator before replacing it in the gun cupboard. Despite being dead, she slid from an almost flat position with her head propped up on a bedside cabinet to being fully laid down, rucking up her nightdress in the process but then pulling only the front of her nightdress down, leaving it rucked up at the back.
Agatha:
It is a fascinating case due to everything that has followed the obvious fact, Sheila shot her family then herself. Where to begin?
Is Julie Mugford with her brazen and articulate tissue of lies in court to blame, or the authority figures that threatened to ruin her life if she gave the wrong answers?
Does Carol Ann Lee truly believe that a man would hand her everything including his endless interviews and actually have conducted this ghostly exercise of intruding and eluding?
She seems to have been captured by this remarkable hoax, god forgive her.
Samson is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th November 2017, 03:07 AM   #322
Vixen
Penultimate Amazing
 
Vixen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Moomin Valley
Posts: 14,006
Originally Posted by Agatha View Post
Have you ever heard of a staged crime scene?

Or perhaps you surmise that after the first shot to Ms Caffell's neck, she took the time to bleed on the Bible found on her body, then shut the Bible, then reopen it and arrange it on herself. After her death she magically cleaned her blood from the rifle barrel (the last shot was a contact wound so blood would have been blown back into the barrel), and deposited her blood into the moderator before replacing it in the gun cupboard. Despite being dead, she slid from an almost flat position with her head propped up on a bedside cabinet to being fully laid down, rucking up her nightdress in the process but then pulling only the front of her nightdress down, leaving it rucked up at the back.
Don't forget Sheila's feet. Completely clean: no sign of having stepped in blood or the shattered glass all over the kitchen floor.

Even the phone off the hook was staged. None of Neville's boodstains on it at all.
__________________
If man has no tea in him, he is incapable of understanding truth and beauty. ~ Japanese Proverb
Vixen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th November 2017, 08:11 AM   #323
Essexman
Student
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 27
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Don't forget Sheila's feet. Completely clean: no sign of having stepped in blood or the shattered glass all over the kitchen floor.

Even the phone off the hook was staged. None of Neville's boodstains on it at all.
Did you not read my reply at 320?

PS: There was no "shattered glass all over the kitchen floor" and any call that was made was prior to getting shot.
Essexman is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th November 2017, 08:51 PM   #324
Fixit
Scholar
 
Join Date: May 2016
Posts: 91
Essexman:

"If you wish to argue that a .22lr rifle is powerful enough to create blood drawback and Jeremy committed the crime with silencer attached there is a big problem with that argument. Reason being one of the twins suffered three contact wounds, yet none of his blood grouping was found in the baffles of the silencer."

Before you quote Di Maio you should be aware that in a recently peer reviewed paper by Di Maio and 2 other authors that examined a suicide with a .22 rifle with a silencer attached, blood was found in the rifle barrel. Furthermore, subsequent firings of a rifle after a contact shot remove or destroy drawn back material. So both your points are wrong. You appear to look for information that supports your point of view without looking further. You may not be interested in the above because it doesn't fit your narrative, and then there is a further point you make which is also wrong - abrasion patterns do occur in close contact shots where a silencer is involved. 3 points out 3 incorrect, indicates you've little idea of what you are talking about. The problem really is because you are incorrect other people reading what you say are misinformed by your opinions, meaning that the narrative is actually fictional and not at all helpful.
Fixit is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th November 2017, 06:12 AM   #325
Essexman
Student
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 27
Originally Posted by Fixit View Post
Before you quote Di Maio you should be aware that in a recently peer reviewed paper by Di Maio and 2 other authors that examined a suicide with a .22 rifle with a silencer attached, blood was found in the rifle barrel. Furthermore, subsequent firings of a rifle after a contact shot remove or destroy drawn back material. So both your points are wrong. You appear to look for information that supports your point of view without looking further. You may not be interested in the above because it doesn't fit your narrative,

On the contrary. Can you please upload this recently peer reviewed paper by Di Maio so I can read it?

PS: If it only mentions one case it does not contradict the results of Di Maios previous conclusions, involving 150 suicide cases via a rifle that show a wide percentage for both blood present and blood absent.

Originally Posted by Fixit View Post
then there is a further point you make which is also wrong - abrasion patterns do occur in close contact shots where a silencer is involved.

I never said abrasion patterns do no occur with a silencer attached. I am well aware that silencers create them.

Last edited by Essexman; 20th November 2017 at 06:31 AM.
Essexman is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th November 2017, 11:49 AM   #326
Fixit
Scholar
 
Join Date: May 2016
Posts: 91
Originally Posted by Essexman View Post
On the contrary. Can you please upload this recently peer reviewed paper by Di Maio so I can read it?

PS: If it only mentions one case it does not contradict the results of Di Maios previous conclusions, involving 150 suicide cases via a rifle that show a wide percentage for both blood present and blood absent.




I never said abrasion patterns do no occur with a silencer attached. I am well aware that silencers create them.
Here's the name of the paper and the authors:

Homicide or Suicide? Gunshot Wound Interpretation:
A Bayesian Approach
Rowena Cave, BSc(Hons),* Vincent J. DiMaio, MD,Ž and D. Kimberley Molina, MDŽ

If you have any arguments with DiMaio, Molina, Cave or the those that peer reviewed the paper take it up with them, rather than try to convince other posters that you are right and the scientists are wrong. Also to back up your claims using other wound details that you now admit are also present after contact suicides wounds using a rifle with a silencer is deliberately misleading. It undermines whatever you have written about the case, and I don't really see how you can put that back together. But good luck and watch out for further misinterpretations because there is always someone around to make the lie of them.
Fixit is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th November 2017, 01:24 PM   #327
Fixit
Scholar
 
Join Date: May 2016
Posts: 91
Originally Posted by Essexman View Post
If the sound moderator is authentic then Jeremy is guilty, Problem is this was "discovered" by his cousins several days afterwards and they stood to inherit the family fortune if Jeremy was convicted. Its suspiciously too convenient whatever way you look at it.

Even some people who believe Jeremy is guilty think the cousins planted residual blood from the crime scene into the sound moderator. its very possible.
Yes, it doesn't overcome all the other difficulties in the Crown's case, it is much like the 'golden bullet' evidence, or miraculous finds that solve a case which formerly had little substance. You will see in the DiMaio report that a 'left hand temple shot', a low percentage indication of a right handed person committing suicide is in the data, but it is supported by other data of suicide. That is the case here imo with the silencer.
Fixit is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st November 2017, 11:35 AM   #328
Essexman
Student
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 27
Originally Posted by Fixit View Post
Here's the name of the paper and the authors:

Homicide or Suicide? Gunshot Wound Interpretation:
A Bayesian Approach
Rowena Cave, BSc(Hons),* Vincent J. DiMaio, MD,Ž and D. Kimberley Molina, MDŽ

If you have any arguments with DiMaio, Molina, Cave or the those that peer reviewed the paper take it up with them, rather than try to convince other posters that you are right and the scientists are wrong.
I have just searched through the PDF of that paper. No mention of silencers or suppressors.

Originally Posted by Fixit View Post
Also to back up your claims using other wound details that you now admit are also present after contact suicides wounds using a rifle with a silencer is deliberately misleading. It undermines whatever you have written about the case, and I don't really see how you can put that back together. But good luck and watch out for further misinterpretations because there is always someone around to make the lie of them.
I never contradicted myself in the first place you simply misinterpret or misunderstand what I am saying.

But to clarify on the abrasion/muzzle patterns

Below is a suicide under the chin with a surpressor (only one I could find) the blood has been cleared but you can see the marks it has left



The muzzle marks show that what is being played out bellow cannot have taken place




https://youtu.be/VeLsEeE0zTI?t=1m32s
Essexman is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd November 2017, 10:25 PM   #329
Fixit
Scholar
 
Join Date: May 2016
Posts: 91
Sorry for that Essexman. You are completely right the case I referred to does not mention a silencer. However, it is one of NZ's most significant Miscarriages of Justice. The example is:

'Bayesian ApplicationVCase Examples
Shot to the Head
A case was presented where a person has died of a rifle
shot.'

This was the alleged murder of Robin Bain by his son David. Of course I had forgotten that the silencer in that case (a home made silencer that was attached with a hose clip) was found on the rifle near the body of Robin is not mentioned in the study. The shot was claimed to have been from a distance, Robin kneeling praying and David hiding behind a curtain to an alcove poking the rifle silently through the curtain and firing the shot. As you will have seen the probability of murder was higher than suicide because it was a left hand temple shot. However there were other problems difficult to overcome, soot and stippling around the wound indicating contact shot, a greater soot spread to one side of the wound where the tight angle contact was reduced, a slightly upward trajectory (meaning David would have had to be lying down to achieve the trajectory,) blood inside the barrel which had travelled through the silencer (induction). I've always thought a close contact murder shot would have resulted in blood in the Bamber rifle, of course not everyone agrees with that for various reasons.

Yes I have seen the photos of Phillip Boyce's experiment earlier using a dead pig, I think it was he that did a similar test for the Bain defence.
Fixit is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd November 2017, 09:07 AM   #330
Essexman
Student
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 27
Originally Posted by Fixit View Post
Sorry for that Essexman. You are completely right the case I referred to does not mention a silencer. However, it is one of NZ's most significant Miscarriages of Justice. The example is:

'Bayesian ApplicationVCase Examples
Shot to the Head
A case was presented where a person has died of a rifle
shot.'

This was the alleged murder of Robin Bain by his son David. Of course I had forgotten that the silencer in that case (a home made silencer that was attached with a hose clip) was found on the rifle near the body of Robin is not mentioned in the study. The shot was claimed to have been from a distance, Robin kneeling praying and David hiding behind a curtain to an alcove poking the rifle silently through the curtain and firing the shot. As you will have seen the probability of murder was higher than suicide because it was a left hand temple shot. However there were other problems difficult to overcome, soot and stippling around the wound indicating contact shot, a greater soot spread to one side of the wound where the tight angle contact was reduced, a slightly upward trajectory (meaning David would have had to be lying down to achieve the trajectory,) blood inside the barrel which had travelled through the silencer (induction). I've always thought a close contact murder shot would have resulted in blood in the Bamber rifle, of course not everyone agrees with that for various reasons.

Yes I have seen the photos of Phillip Boyce's experiment earlier using a dead pig, I think it was he that did a similar test for the Bain defence.
If Robin was holding the gun at a vertical position, gravity may have played a role in blood going down the silencer.

Plus it was a shot to the head, contrary to Sheila being shot in the neck/chin


"It is well known that gunshot wounding can produce fine droplets of blood spattered in a forward direction.
Under certain circumstances blood droplets can also be propelled backwards in a direction against the line of fire.
Although the phenomenon of back spatter of blood is most commonly seen in contact gunshot wounds of the
head
"
Stephens, B. and Allen, T., "Back Spatter of Blood from Gunshot Wounds—Observations and Experimental Simulation," Journal of Forensic Sciences, Vol. 28, No. 2, 1983, pp. 437-439,
Essexman is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st December 2017, 11:54 AM   #331
Fixit
Scholar
 
Join Date: May 2016
Posts: 91
The main factor for Robin's blood entering the rifle was the velocity of the shot and no exit wound, so no where for the blood and brain to exhaust other than through the wound. If you can get any videos (I had some but deleted them when the Bamber case looked to be going no where, and I got busy with something else) slow motion bullet impact you will see spatter. In Bain it rose over a metre onto a curtain of a alcove. Then there is the draw back, with the vacuum draws the nearest air/debris/blood back into the rifle - instantaneously.

Going on Bain to look at Bamber, softer tissue for sure but a main artery nicked so certainly spatter. The question is however, if the silencer was in fact on the rifle there's an argument that there should have also been blood in the barrel.The we go to broken 'forensic safety chain' with the silencer, the number of searches for and so on - something if a Bayes calculation was/could be established, would indicate imo the improbability of the silencer having been on the rifle at that time. Number 1 point why use a silencer anyway. In Robin's case it was already attached to the rifle. There was no silence at WHF that night/morning that is for sure.
Fixit is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Trials and Errors

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 05:23 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.