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Tags legal issues , murder cases , Oklahoma incidents , shooting incidents

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Old 30th March 2017, 09:39 PM   #361
EHocking
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
It sad that Americans live in such a dangerous country they cheer when criminals are shot...
This doesn't happen in the UK?
No, it doesn't happen in the UK.
Vixen, you must lead a very sheltered life, where you read no newspapers, watch any television or listen to any radio, if you believe this to be a true representation of the opinion on the subject in the UK.

To state this misrepresentation so emphatically in order to support your personal opinion on the subject is less than commendable.
I have little doubt that the majority of Brits felt vindicated after the police shot Khalid Masood.
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Old 30th March 2017, 10:21 PM   #362
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Originally Posted by Jules Galen View Post
Could have been once the situation got out of control. But I would like to know what led up to this situation.

Did there people know each other? I bet they did....and I bet there's a whole-nuther story we have not been told.
They could have all been involved in an orgy the night before and the homeowner asked them to return to do some knife-wielding burglar roleplay.

Maybe someone would like to play the "could" game with you - betting and all. That's not me, though. I'll stick with my current opinion until further evidence surfaces that materially changes the available information.

Last edited by Babbylonian; 30th March 2017 at 10:23 PM.
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Old 30th March 2017, 10:50 PM   #363
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This discussion has entered the realm of the surreal. People are actually arguing over the definition of easily understood words like "armed" and "weapon". Knives and knuckle-dusters are no longer considered weapons by some. What foolishness. Some people just want to disagree to be different, I guess.
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Old 30th March 2017, 11:24 PM   #364
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Originally Posted by Sir Robin Goodfellow View Post
This discussion has entered the realm of the surreal. People are actually arguing over the definition of easily understood words like "armed" and "weapon". Knives and knuckle-dusters are no longer considered weapons by some. What foolishness. Some people just want to disagree to be different, I guess.
And just to pin it to the wall,
2014 Oklahoma Statutes
Title 21. Crimes and Punishments
§21-1431. Burglary in first degree.

Universal Citation: 21 OK Stat § 21-1431 (2014)
Every person who breaks into and enters the dwelling house of another, in which there is at the time some human being, with intent to commit some crime therein, either:

1. By forcibly bursting or breaking the wall, or an outer door, window, or shutter of a window of such house or the lock or bolts of such door, or the fastening of such window or shutter; or

2. By breaking in any other manner, being armed with a dangerous weapon or being assisted or aided by one or more confederates then actually present; or

3. By unlocking an outer door by means of false keys or by picking the lock thereof, or by lifting a latch or opening a window, is guilty of burglary in the first degree.

R.L.1910, § 2611. Amended by Laws 1979, c. 43, § 1, eff. Oct. 1, 1979.
Try as you might, you'll not get a firm definition of "dangerous weapon" in OK, leaving it up to the court to decide by the looks of it.
All the legal links I can find seem to agree that both knives and brass knuckles will be regarded as dangerous/offensive (it seems to be interchangeable) weapons.

ETA. OK Unlawful Carry law defines both knives and brass knuckles as offensive weapons.
It shall be unlawful for any person to carry...
any dagger, bowie knife, dirk knife, switchblade knife, sword cane, knife having a blade which opens automatically by hand pressure applied to a button, spring, or other device in the handle of the knife, blackjack, loaded cane, billy, hand chain, metal knuckles, or any other offensive weapon, whether such weapon be concealed or unconcealed,
HTH
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Old 30th March 2017, 11:53 PM   #365
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From my link in post 353:
Quote:
Different states use different standards for what is required regarding the use of a deadly weapon. Some only require the use of a weapon, which is any object that could potentially harm another. Other states says it is any object that is capable of causing death or serious bodily injury, even if there is no actual injury inflicted. There are no limitations on what object can potentially be considered a weapon under either standard. Weapons include: knives, bb guns, lead pipes, broken bottles, pieces of glass.
It's clear that knives and brass knuckles can be considered deadly weapons.
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Old 31st March 2017, 04:23 AM   #366
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Originally Posted by Beady View Post
I suppose you could store a shotgun on an open, unsecured rack and the ammo in a quick-access safe nearby, but that's exposing the shotgun to theft and children. I wouldn't do it.
How about this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IRUw3R5kZtk
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Old 31st March 2017, 04:31 AM   #367
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Originally Posted by bytewizard View Post
Oh, I think I now understand. These 3 teens got lost on their way to the mountains for a skiing trip; accidentally trespassed while breaking a window to ask the homeowner for directions, and the homeowner felt free to shoot them dead for no reason at all.


Finally, someone gets it!
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Old 31st March 2017, 05:12 AM   #368
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
I love the way the shotgun pops out, positioned to shoot whoever is in bed next to you. Ad slogan: "Bad lay? Blown away!"
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Old 31st March 2017, 05:23 AM   #369
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Originally Posted by Resume View Post
Jack the Ripper broke into people's homes?

No, he tramped the streets trawling for prostitutes in the East End.

So a complete non sequitur.

Of course the UK has criminals and murderers. It is vanishingly rare for a homeowner to have to shoot dead intruders.
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Old 31st March 2017, 05:42 AM   #370
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Originally Posted by EHocking View Post
Vixen, you must lead a very sheltered life, where you read no newspapers, watch any television or listen to any radio, if you believe this to be a true representation of the opinion on the subject in the UK.

To state this misrepresentation so emphatically in order to support your personal opinion on the subject is less than commendable.
I have little doubt that the majority of Brits felt vindicated after the police shot Khalid Masood.
That's to change the subject. The Westminster atrocity was neither a robbery or a breaking and entry nor a stand your ground. He was shot by armed police trained to apprehend terrorists committed to violating security measures.
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Old 31st March 2017, 05:49 AM   #371
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Originally Posted by EHocking View Post
And just to pin it to the wall,
2014 Oklahoma Statutes
Title 21. Crimes and Punishments
§21-1431. Burglary in first degree.

Universal Citation: 21 OK Stat § 21-1431 (2014)
Every person who breaks into and enters the dwelling house of another, in which there is at the time some human being, with intent to commit some crime therein, either:

1. By forcibly bursting or breaking the wall, or an outer door, window, or shutter of a window of such house or the lock or bolts of such door, or the fastening of such window or shutter; or

2. By breaking in any other manner, being armed with a dangerous weapon or being assisted or aided by one or more confederates then actually present; or

3. By unlocking an outer door by means of false keys or by picking the lock thereof, or by lifting a latch or opening a window, is guilty of burglary in the first degree.

R.L.1910, § 2611. Amended by Laws 1979, c. 43, § 1, eff. Oct. 1, 1979.
Try as you might, you'll not get a firm definition of "dangerous weapon" in OK, leaving it up to the court to decide by the looks of it.
All the legal links I can find seem to agree that both knives and brass knuckles will be regarded as dangerous/offensive (it seems to be interchangeable) weapons.

ETA. OK Unlawful Carry law defines both knives and brass knuckles as offensive weapons.
It shall be unlawful for any person to carry...
any dagger, bowie knife, dirk knife, switchblade knife, sword cane, knife having a blade which opens automatically by hand pressure applied to a button, spring, or other device in the handle of the knife, blackjack, loaded cane, billy, hand chain, metal knuckles, or any other offensive weapon, whether such weapon be concealed or unconcealed,
HTH

I was actually on jury service in respect of some young thug charged with carrying an offensive weapon and using it. He had a bag filled with a large number of coins (- a cosh) and a retractable baton. He smashed some guy over the head with it when the guy accidentally split some orange juice over the thug's girlfriend when she shouldered him out of the way on a train platform. This coshed guy was selling some kind of publication.

The thug was found guilty of carrying the offensive weapon about his person in a public place, (= as directed by the judge) but cleared of assault. Juries are notoriously sympathetic towards defendants.

People just wanted to get home early.
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Old 31st March 2017, 07:27 AM   #372
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Originally Posted by ABC News
Ethan Ellison, a friend of Rodriguez's and the three teenagers, told ABC News that they spoke right after the trio was shot.

"She called me right after it was done. She called me and she was freaking out. And then she told me that the three boys got shot. ... I was like, 'What? What are you talking about? What do you mean?'" he said.

"She said that they thought that the house was empty. ... All she knows, is she heard over 12 gun shots so she freaked out and left," Ellison said.


http://abcnews.go.com/US/resident-ki...ry?id=46475044
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Old 31st March 2017, 07:42 AM   #373
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Is there any crime for which you think shooting someone dead is not an appropriate response?
Any crime for which the criminal doesn't show up armed, is a good general rule, I think.
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Old 31st March 2017, 08:14 AM   #374
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Originally Posted by fuelair View Post
No, though it might in GB..... Armed means carrying anything that might be used as a weapon and is clearly dangerous. A screwdriver is quite effective for murdering/harming badly a person, so are coshes, so are razor blades. Stuffed bunnies, not so much.
Depending, of course, on what they are stuffed with!!!!!!!
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Old 31st March 2017, 08:50 AM   #375
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Any crime for which the criminal doesn't show up armed, is a good general rule, I think.

And even then it can be justified.
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Old 31st March 2017, 08:59 AM   #376
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Originally Posted by applecorped View Post
And even then it can be justified.
Yeah, I think it could be broadened a bit to any crime that does not lead to someone fearing for their safety or life.
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Old 31st March 2017, 09:15 AM   #377
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Putting the "get away" in "getaway driver".
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Old 31st March 2017, 09:31 AM   #378
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
I'm embarrassed by how many people in that clip are obese. Fat America.
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Old 31st March 2017, 09:37 AM   #379
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
A little hard core for my taste.

This signature is intended to irritate people.
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Old 31st March 2017, 09:39 AM   #380
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Jack the Ripper broke into people's homes?

No, he tramped the streets trawling for prostitutes in the East End.

So a complete non sequitur.

Of course the UK has criminals and murderers. It is vanishingly rare for a homeowner to have to shoot dead intruders.
Non sequitur? I was replying to your claim that carrying a knife was not going "armed" with a deadly weapon, which it is, as demonstrated in post 353, and others.
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Old 31st March 2017, 09:40 AM   #381
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Any crime for which the criminal doesn't show up armed, is a good general rule, I think.
How would the victim know the perp was unarmed?

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Old 31st March 2017, 09:55 AM   #382
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Originally Posted by Beady View Post
How would the victim know the perp was unarmed?
If they're carrying a knife, or brass knuckles, or anything short of a gun, some would have you believe.
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Old 31st March 2017, 10:28 AM   #383
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Doesn't matter if they were armed. They kicked the door in wearing burglary costumes. They are therefore eligible for the prize of being shot by the homeowner. That is true in every state as far as I know.

The girl arranged the whole thing, and apparently drove off while the one accomplice that made it out of the house was trying to get to the car...
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Old 31st March 2017, 10:36 AM   #384
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Originally Posted by Beady View Post
How would the victim know the perp was unarmed?
Good point. Maybe Dr. Keith has the right idea.
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Old 31st March 2017, 10:41 AM   #385
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Originally Posted by Resume View Post
If they're carrying a knife, or brass knuckles, or anything short of a gun, some would have you believe.
Unless, I suppose, the brass knuckles are painted black, in which case they are "assault knuckles" and thus to be feared...
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Old 31st March 2017, 10:43 AM   #386
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Good point. Maybe Dr. Keith has the right idea.
You know I'm going to frame that post and hang it in my office.

More seriously, you have to look at it from the shooter's point of view: did the shooter believe that the perpetrator was unlawfully presenting an imminent threat of serious bodily harm or death.

Three masked men breaking into your home seem to meet that criteria for most people even if you can't see their weapons.

My only caveat is that if the turned tail and ran as soon as they saw me I would hesitate to pull the trigger. Not saying the law requires it, just saying I'm not going to be haunted by the death of an idiot if I don't have to be.
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Old 31st March 2017, 11:02 AM   #387
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
You know I'm going to frame that post and hang it in my office.

More seriously, you have to look at it from the shooter's point of view: did the shooter believe that the perpetrator was unlawfully presenting an imminent threat of serious bodily harm or death.

Three masked men breaking into your home seem to meet that criteria for most people even if you can't see their weapons.
This!

Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
My only caveat is that if the turned tail and ran as soon as they saw me I would hesitate to pull the trigger. Not saying the law requires it, just saying I'm not going to be haunted by the death of an idiot if I don't have to be.
And this!
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Old 31st March 2017, 11:20 AM   #388
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Originally Posted by Metullus View Post
This!
I would edit slightly, now that I reread it:

did the shooter believe have a reasonable belief that the perpetrator was unlawfully presenting an imminent threat of serious bodily harm or death.


Quote:
And this!
Yeah, I find myself awake at night sometimes worrying about ********. I can't imagine ever falling to sleep again if I killed some idiot and believed that I didn't absolutely need to. I'm not going to let idiot like that screw up my life if I can avoid it.
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Old 31st March 2017, 12:17 PM   #389
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Originally Posted by Resume View Post
Non sequitur? I was replying to your claim that carrying a knife was not going "armed" with a deadly weapon, which it is, as demonstrated in post 353, and others.
No, I did not say that. I said, in the UK news, when a person is said to be armed, people generally take it to mean armed with a gun, unless it's qualified by 'armed with knives', or whatever the weapon.
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Old 31st March 2017, 12:19 PM   #390
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So, Vixen, once you've set the dinner table for the intruders and they announce their intention to rape and kill you once they're at arm's length, what do you do?
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Old 31st March 2017, 12:20 PM   #391
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
So, Vixen, once you've set the dinner table for the intruders and they announce their intention to rape and kill you once they're at arm's length, what do you do?
Don't be silly.
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Old 31st March 2017, 12:51 PM   #392
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Don't be silly.
I'm not sure what it is that is silly about Argumemnon's question. It is not an unreasonable interpretation of your posts in this thread that you would presume that masked and armed intruders into your home mean you no harm until and unless they somehow convinced you otherwise. That being the case, at what point would you decide that a threat to your person does, in fact, exist and what action would you then take?
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Old 31st March 2017, 12:57 PM   #393
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Jack the Ripper broke into people's homes?

No, he tramped the streets trawling for prostitutes in the East End.

So a complete non sequitur.

Of course the UK has criminals and murderers. It is vanishingly rare for a homeowner to have to shoot dead intruders.
Sure it is - dead intruders would have to be zombies!!!!!!!!!
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Old 31st March 2017, 01:02 PM   #394
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
I would edit slightly, now that I reread it:

did the shooter believe have a reasonable belief that the perpetrator was unlawfully presenting an imminent threat of serious bodily harm or death.




Yeah, I find myself awake at night sometimes worrying about ********. I can't imagine ever falling to sleep again if I killed some idiot and believed that I didn't absolutely need to. I'm not going to let idiot like that screw up my life if I can avoid it.
If I killed some idiot who broke into my house at the times idiots tend to, no I would have no feelings of guilt. Unless I could immediately see he had no weapons and was not in any condition to otherwise attack. Attacked's life worth more than attacker's (absent attacked being a dangerous criminal -which I am not (the criminal part anyway)).
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Old 31st March 2017, 01:06 PM   #395
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Originally Posted by Beady View Post
How would the victim know the perp was unarmed?

This signature is intended to irritate people.
If the perp has broken in and is reasonably physically functional it does not matter. Unless he turns and flees when he sees the large roundness of the barrel pointed his way. In which case it is generally considered bad form to fire!!!
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Old 31st March 2017, 01:07 PM   #396
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Originally Posted by fuelair View Post
If I killed some idiot who broke into my house at the times idiots tend to, no I would have no feelings of guilt. Unless I could immediately see he had no weapons and was not in any condition to otherwise attack. Attacked's life worth more than attacker's (absent attacked being a dangerous criminal -which I am not (the criminal part anyway)).
Generally, I agree. I just know that I would have to be quite certain before I pulled a trigger. So, I may not shoot when I legally could and that may cost me my life.

But, that is all pretty moot as none of my guns are currently in my home. The eight hour round trip drive to retrieve one would likely have more impact on my shot selection than anything else.
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Old 31st March 2017, 01:09 PM   #397
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Originally Posted by EHocking View Post
And just to pin it to the wall,
2014 Oklahoma Statutes
Title 21. Crimes and Punishments
§21-1431. Burglary in first degree.

Universal Citation: 21 OK Stat § 21-1431 (2014)
Every person who breaks into and enters the dwelling house of another, in which there is at the time some human being, with intent to commit some crime therein, either:

1. By forcibly bursting or breaking the wall, or an outer door, window, or shutter of a window of such house or the lock or bolts of such door, or the fastening of such window or shutter; or

2. By breaking in any other manner, being armed with a dangerous weapon or being assisted or aided by one or more confederates then actually present; or

3. By unlocking an outer door by means of false keys or by picking the lock thereof, or by lifting a latch or opening a window, is guilty of burglary in the first degree.

R.L.1910, § 2611. Amended by Laws 1979, c. 43, § 1, eff. Oct. 1, 1979.
Try as you might, you'll not get a firm definition of "dangerous weapon" in OK, leaving it up to the court to decide by the looks of it.
All the legal links I can find seem to agree that both knives and brass knuckles will be regarded as dangerous/offensive (it seems to be interchangeable) weapons.

ETA. OK Unlawful Carry law defines both knives and brass knuckles as offensive weapons.
It shall be unlawful for any person to carry...
any dagger, bowie knife, dirk knife, switchblade knife, sword cane, knife having a blade which opens automatically by hand pressure applied to a button, spring, or other device in the handle of the knife, blackjack, loaded cane, billy, hand chain, metal knuckles, or any other offensive weapon, whether such weapon be concealed or unconcealed,
HTH
I suspect there are unofficial exceptions to the Knife law;otherwise you would have to arrest just about every costume Participant at a Renfair or SCA Event.....
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Old 31st March 2017, 01:11 PM   #398
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
You know I'm going to frame that post and hang it in my office.

More seriously, you have to look at it from the shooter's point of view: did the shooter believe that the perpetrator was unlawfully presenting an imminent threat of serious bodily harm or death.

Three masked men breaking into your home seem to meet that criteria for most people even if you can't see their weapons.

My only caveat is that if the turned tail and ran as soon as they saw me I would hesitate to pull the trigger. Not saying the law requires it, just saying I'm not going to be haunted by the death of an idiot if I don't have to be.
Law agrees as best I understand it. Any question and the owner has the choice. I would only backshoot if they had already damaged me.

As is said in a famous British joke concerning a gentleman finding another fellow having it off with his wife: " It was a fine shot- I caught him on the rise!!!"
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Old 31st March 2017, 01:11 PM   #399
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I suspect there are unofficial exceptions to the Knife law;otherwise you would have to arrest just about every costume Participant at a Renfair or SCA Event.....
It's obviously a law designed to give police officers options, which can be a good thing as long as their first instinct isn't to open fire when they see someone out LARPing with their friends.
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Old 31st March 2017, 01:12 PM   #400
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Originally Posted by fuelair View Post
Sure it is - dead intruders would have to be zombies!!!!!!!!!
Then you aim for the head......
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