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Tags legal issues , murder cases , Oklahoma incidents , shooting incidents

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Old 28th March 2017, 05:25 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
I think it would have been obvious they were kids. Gangly, lanky, svelte.
And therefore incapable of doing anything so heinous as hurting someone? During their home invasion, with weapons.
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Old 28th March 2017, 05:25 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Oh, well, then. Never mind, home invade away!
A young life is more important than grandma's silver candlesticks. Come on. Leave the crime solving to the police. Claim on your insurance.
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Old 28th March 2017, 05:26 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
No, all they had was a knife and some brass knuckle dusters, according to early reports. In the USA if your accomplices in a felony die, for whatever reason in the course of the crime (usually burglary or robbery) you can be charged with their first degree murder.

Apparently, this state has a 'Make My Day' law, which means you can shoot any intruder to smithereens with impunity.

That's some fine straw mixed with excuse making.
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Old 28th March 2017, 05:27 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
No, all they had was a knife and some brass knuckle dusters, according to early reports.
None of which, of course, can cause death or grievous bodily harm. They were, I am certain, only brought along as fashion accessories...

Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
In the USA if your accomplices in a felony die, for whatever reason in the course of the crime (usually burglary or robbery) you can be charged with their first degree murder.
Er, no. The underlying crime must be a felony and must also be the proximate cause of the death.

Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Apparently, this state has a 'Make My Day' law, which means you can shoot any intruder to smithereens with impunity.
This is called the Castle Doctrine. It does not mean what you say it means.
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Old 28th March 2017, 05:28 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
It was 'found on the deceased person's body'. I recall one survey showed an enormous number of people carry a knife. It doesn't show intent to use it, except perhaps in self-defence.
And if he'd had a gun then no doubt he was on his way to target practice after the home invasion. You're bending over backwards to try to excuse an armed home invasion here. I wonder if you'd feel the same if you looked up to find three people, one with a knife and one with brass knuckles, in your house?
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Old 28th March 2017, 05:28 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
And therefore incapable of doing anything so heinous as hurting someone? During their home invasion, with weapons.
You'll be at home in Oklahoma! then?
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Old 28th March 2017, 05:29 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
A young life is more important than grandma's silver candlesticks. Come on. Leave the crime solving to the police. Claim on your insurance.
He wasn't solving the crime, he was a victim of it. He was there, when they broke in, armed, with nefarious intentions. It was certainly not his duty to interview them to determine if they were really going to cut his throat or not.
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Old 28th March 2017, 05:30 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
You'll be at home in Oklahoma! then?
I'm not in that particular state, but yes where I live I am certainly legally entitled to defend myself from a home invasion.
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Old 28th March 2017, 05:32 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by Metullus View Post
None of which, of course, can cause death or grievous bodily harm. They were, I am certain, only brought along as fashion accessories...

Er, no. The underlying crime must be a felony and must also be the proximate cause of the death.

This is called the Castle Doctrine. It does not mean what you say it means.
If say, all they showed him was a knife, then why not just shoot him in the hand? Give them a chance to get out. One fled to the lawn and died there.

If the homeowner's son shot them in anger, rather than self-defence, then he should be charged with manslaughter.

People can't walk around acting like Charles Bronson vigilantes.
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Old 28th March 2017, 05:34 PM   #50
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I don't believe I've ever seen any post manage to be so wrong about everything before, even in the Politics section during an election year!
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Old 28th March 2017, 05:35 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
I'm not in that particular state, but yes where I live I am certainly legally entitled to defend myself from a home invasion.

That is the problem with the USA. It is an extremely violent country. And it's thanks in part to its gun culture.
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Old 28th March 2017, 05:36 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
That is the problem with the USA. It is an extremely violent country. And it's thanks in part to its gun culture.
And there it is.......
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Old 28th March 2017, 05:36 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
That is the problem with the USA. It is an extremely violent country. And it's thanks in part to its gun culture.
Remind me how many guns the Yorkshire Ripper used? Was it zero? It was zero. In fact if memory serves his first two victims were killed with rocks. Which you'd find to be innocent objects, because many people carry rocks with them.
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Old 28th March 2017, 05:40 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
A young life is more important than grandma's silver candlesticks. Come on. Leave the crime solving to the police. Claim on your insurance.
Need more information on actual value of specific candlesticks and young life in question before deciding.
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Old 28th March 2017, 05:40 PM   #55
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Rocks are worse than knives. Knives only have the one dangerous edge, rocks are dangerous all the way around.
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Old 28th March 2017, 05:41 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Remind me how many guns the Yorkshire Ripper used? Was it zero? It was zero. In fact if memory serves his first two victims were killed with rocks. Which you'd find to be innocent objects, because many people carry rocks with them.
Logical fallacy = the non sequitur.

Sure you should be allowed to defend yourself and your family with appropriate force.

But you can't just kill someone just because they broke in. You have to show it was justified.

That's how it is in the UK, anyway.
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Old 28th March 2017, 05:42 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
A young life is more important than grandma's silver candlesticks.
You'd think so, but the home invaders decided to risk their lives for a little loot. We are left going with their own depreciated value for their own short lives. Was it suicide by burglary? I don't know. Maybe.
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Old 28th March 2017, 05:45 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Logical fallacy = the non sequitur.

Sure you should be allowed to defend yourself and your family with appropriate force.

But you can't just kill someone just because they broke in. You have to show it was justified.

That's how it is in the UK, anyway.
The justification is that there's a bunch of armed people who broke into your house!

Seriously, what would you do in that situation? "Hi, you must be nice kids. You really want Grandma's candlesticks, huh? Okay, you can take them. Because I'm an enlightened special snowflake who values life!"

"Gosh, thanks, ma'am" the one with the knife replies, "but actually we're here for a rape and murder, then the candlesticks."

At that point I guess you'd ask them politely to not do those things?
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Old 28th March 2017, 05:45 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
If say, all they showed him was a knife, then why not just shoot him in the hand?
Well, for one thing, this is not television.

Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Give them a chance to get out. One fled to the lawn and died there.
If someone breaks into my home and threatens me with violence I owe them no consideration whatever.

Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
If the homeowner's son shot them in anger, rather than self-defence, then he should be charged with manslaughter.
Do you have any reason to believe that the homeowner's son was not acting in self-defense other than your infatuation with the perpetrators? Moreover, is it your contention that it is not possible to be both fearful and angry at the same time?

Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
People can't walk around acting like Charles Bronson vigilantes.
Defending oneself from assailants in one's home is not even close to walking around acting like Charles Bronson.
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Old 28th March 2017, 05:46 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by marplots View Post
You'd think so, but the home invaders decided to risk their lives for a little loot. We are left going with their own depreciated value for their own short lives. Was it suicide by burglary? I don't know. Maybe.
It's a tragedy all round. For the 23-year old who killed the three 17-year olds and the family and friends of the teenagers. The 21-year old obviously has a conscience, as she turned herself in and gave a full confession.

That's life without parole.

Four young lives ruined.
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Old 28th March 2017, 05:47 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by marplots View Post
You'd think so, but the home invaders decided to risk their lives for a little loot. We are left going with their own depreciated value for their own short lives. Was it suicide by burglary? I don't know. Maybe.
For all I know, Rodriguez sent the three in there intending for them to be killed. Premeditated murder.
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Old 28th March 2017, 05:49 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by Metullus View Post
Well, for one thing, this is not television.

If someone breaks into my home and threatens me with violence I owe them no consideration whatever.

Do you have any reason to believe that the homeowner's son was not acting in self-defense other than your infatuation with the perpetrators? Moreover, is it your contention that it is not possible to be both fearful and angry at the same time?

Defending oneself from assailants in one's home is not even close to walking around acting like Charles Bronson.
You can replace the laptop, or the tv. What are they going to steal that the police cannot trace later?
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Old 28th March 2017, 05:51 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by Noztradamus View Post
For all I know, Rodriguez sent the three in there intending for them to be killed. Premeditated murder.
Looking at her mean little face, they are probably dirt poor and poverty stricken.

No doubt wanted all over the county. Call the cops.
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Old 28th March 2017, 05:52 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
You can replace the laptop, or the tv. What are they going to steal that the police cannot trace later?
Well, they could stab you in the throat with their knife, for starters. How are you not getting this? The guy is not a magical mind reader. He had no way of knowing the intentions of these home invaders--and for that matter, neither have you. For all you know they fully planned to kill anybody they found inside. You're operating purely on hindsight, which is a luxury this guy didn't have. So he did the sensible thing and acted to defend himself against the worst.
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Old 28th March 2017, 05:53 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
You can replace the laptop, or the tv. What are they going to steal that the police cannot trace later?
A life?
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Old 28th March 2017, 05:57 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
You can replace the laptop, or the tv. What are they going to steal that the police cannot trace later?
How, pray, am I to know that they mean me and mine no harm? There are three of them to one of me. They don't need to bring weapons if they are only planning on stealing stuff.

If they are breaking into my home while I am there, it is up to them to convince me that they mean me no harm. I am not obliged to give them the benefit of any doubt, nor should I be so obliged.
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Old 28th March 2017, 06:10 PM   #67
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I wonder if they thought the house was unoccupied, or what. The father and son were inside sleeping - in the middle of the day.
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Old 28th March 2017, 06:13 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
It's a tragedy all round. For the 23-year old who killed the three 17-year olds and the family and friends of the teenagers. The 21-year old obviously has a conscience, as she turned herself in and gave a full confession.

That's life without parole.

Four young lives ruined.
Five. The shooter isn't going to escape trauma free.
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Old 28th March 2017, 06:16 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
You have a strange definition of "armed" if you don't consider a knife a weapon. Do you require a link to prominent murders by stabbing?
I see what you did there.
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Old 28th March 2017, 06:35 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
It's a tragedy all round. For the 23-year old who killed the three 17-year olds and the family and friends of the teenagers. The 21-year old obviously has a conscience, as she turned herself in and gave a full confession.

That's life without parole.

Four young lives ruined.
Because the four of them made an extremely poor decision.
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Old 28th March 2017, 06:36 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Well, they could stab you in the throat with their knife, for starters. How are you not getting this? The guy is not a magical mind reader. He had no way of knowing the intentions of these home invaders--and for that matter, neither have you. For all you know they fully planned to kill anybody they found inside. You're operating purely on hindsight, which is a luxury this guy didn't have. So he did the sensible thing and acted to defend himself against the worst.
I'm gonna go with troll. If not - wow too bad. Not even worth arguing with.

ETA: If the intruders were unarmed it would make no difference to me, sans any odd extenuating circumstances. 3 guys in my house? If the bad guys aren't running out the door the moment I see them I will assume the worst.

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Old 28th March 2017, 06:37 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
No, all they had was a knife . . .
Tell you what, experience one held to your throat with force and get back to me.
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Old 28th March 2017, 06:46 PM   #73
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I keep a selection of knives on my kitchen counter. That way, if you break in unarmed, you can choose something you like before I shoot you.
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Old 28th March 2017, 06:59 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
From what I'm understanding, this person can be charged and convicted of murder even though they did not actually murder anyone. Is that right? Does this mean that accessory charges don't even exist?

When I was learning basic law in high school, driving a getaway car was the definitive example of an accessory. As in, "What does accessory mean?" "The getaway car driver is an accessory. They didn't take part in the crime itself, but they knew about it and facilitated it." A distinction was also drawn between an accessory before the crime, who had knowledge prior to the crime being committed, and an accessory after the crime, who did not.

For example, if the getaway driver had been a participant in the plan to murder someone from the beginning, they would be an accessory before. If they had no idea what was going to happen until after the actual murderer came out and said "Okay, you gotta take me away from here because I just murdered someone", they would be an accessory after.

From what I'm being told here, if the person was a participant in the plan to murder someone from the beginning, they they are a murderer because they had the intent to have the person end up murdered, regardless of whether they actually pulled the trigger or not. This would mean that what I described above as an accessory after would not be a murderer, because they did not have the intent. Is that right?

My knowledge of law is limited, and what I learned in Australia may be different from what the law is in America. Heck, what the law is in America may be different from what the law is in another part of America, so I think my confusion is understandable. I would have thought that murder was a federal crime though, and would be treated consistently.
I realize that when you posted this you were think that it was the homeowner who got killed, but I’ll address it anyway.

Murder is usually a state crime. Murder is only a federal crime if it is a government official (elected/appointed official, law enforcement officer or their immediate family), intended to influence a court case (judge, court officer, juror, witness, victim), in connection with certain other federal crimes (bank robbery, rape, child molestation/rape, drug trafficking), on a ship, through the mail (send a bomb or poison), solicitation for murder, by a member of the U.S. Armed Forces or a prisoner thereof, or in some cases where the murder is committed on federal land or involves crossing state borders.

The laws for murder vary from state to state. In some states a person is guilty of murder if they order a murder or involved in any part of the planning or execution of the murder. This usually falls under RICO (Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organizations) laws originally designed to take down the leaders of organized crime. This is why Charles Manson was convicted of murder by the State of California even though he didn’t actually kill any of the victims.

In those states a person would be guilty of conspiracy if they helped plan a murder but it got busted up before it happened. They would be guilty of accessory if they helped cover up a murder after it was committed.

In a state with a RICO type law, the person would be guilty of accessory if they helped plan the murder or helped conceal it. That is, their participation was before or after the crime, but they didn’t actually participate in the crime.

A getaway driver would be an “accomplice”. In some states an accomplice would be guilty of aiding and abetting. In other states, the person would also be guilty of the murder.

In some states a person is guilty of murder if a person is killed while they are committing a crime. That is what we have here for first degree murder in Oklahoma:

Quote:
A person also commits the crime of murder in the first degree, regardless of malice, when that person or any other person takes the life of a human being during, or if the death of a human being results from, the commission or attempted commission of murder of another person, shooting or discharge of a firearm or crossbow with intent to kill, intentional discharge of a firearm or other deadly weapon into any dwelling or building as provided in Section 1289.17A of this title, forcible rape, robbery with a dangerous weapon, kidnapping, escape from lawful custody, eluding an officer, first degree burglary, first degree arson, unlawful distributing or dispensing of controlled dangerous substances or synthetic controlled substances, trafficking in illegal drugs, or manufacturing or attempting to manufacture a controlled dangerous substance.
Note that malice is not a condition here. This usually applies to someone getting killed by the criminals: two guys hold up a liquor store and one guy ends up shooting the cashier; they are both guilty of murder. But note that it says “or any other person takes the life of a human being during, or if the death of a human being results” during the crimes listed. The homeowner took the life of a human being and the crime of burglary resulted in the death of a human being, so the driver is charged with first degree murder.

It seems a bit odd to me. But there have been cases where the police have shot one suspect in a crime and then charged the other with murder as a result of that person’s death.
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Last edited by DevilsAdvocate; 28th March 2017 at 07:09 PM.
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Old 28th March 2017, 07:03 PM   #75
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
From what I'm understanding, this person can be charged and convicted of murder even though they did not actually murder anyone. Is that right? Does this mean that accessory charges don't even exist?
There was a thread when these were the JREF forums, circa 2008 or 2009 IIRC, wherein it was discussed regarding a case in Houston that, since the driver was an accomplice, he was liable for the murder charge of the guy who did the shooting. That thread went for some pages. I know you were on the JREF forums then, so you may be able to recall how deeply we dissected the rules on that.

As this is Oklahoma, not sure how close or far from Texas law they are, but I'll propose that they are similar.
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Old 28th March 2017, 07:15 PM   #76
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Originally Posted by Darth Rotor View Post
There was a thread when these were the JREF forums, circa 2008 or 2009 IIRC, wherein it was discussed regarding a case in Houston that, since the driver was an accomplice, he was liable for the murder charge of the guy who did the shooting. That thread went for some pages. I know you were on the JREF forums then, so you may be able to recall how deeply we dissected the rules on that.

As this is Oklahoma, not sure how close or far from Texas law they are, but I'll propose that they are similar.
This is the thread - a Matteo Martini classic.
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Old 28th March 2017, 07:54 PM   #77
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
If say, all they showed him was a knife, then why not just shoot him in the hand? Give them a chance to get out. One fled to the lawn and died there.

If the homeowner's son shot them in anger, rather than self-defence, then he should be charged with manslaughter.

People can't walk around acting like Charles Bronson vigilantes.
It's actually quite hard to shoot someone in the hand, which is small and can move pretty quickly. It can be done, but it takes a degree of skill and precision that most regular folks just don't have.

Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Remind me how many guns the Yorkshire Ripper used? Was it zero? It was zero. In fact if memory serves his first two victims were killed with rocks. Which you'd find to be innocent objects, because many people carry rocks with them.
If the murder rate in the UK was in any way comparable to the murder rate in the USA, then you might have a point. Since it isn't, you don't.

Originally Posted by Metullus View Post
I did a quick search to see if I had posted in that thread, and I didn't. I don't recall it. Anyway, I think it's perfectly reasonable to discuss a thing a second time, ten years later.
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Old 28th March 2017, 08:04 PM   #78
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
If say, all they showed him was a knife, then why not just shoot him in the hand?
.
I think you are being disturbingly bloodthirsty there. Why couldn't he just shoot the blade of the knife, shattering it?

Originally Posted by Vixen View Post

People can't walk around acting like Charles Bronson vigilantes.
Especially not in their own homes.
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Old 28th March 2017, 09:15 PM   #79
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Lemme see...these guys show with weapons and in the middle of the day. seems like they had a target to me, they just didn't foresee the outside help with the AR-15.

This whole thing stinks like a bad drug deal...at least to me.
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Old 28th March 2017, 09:27 PM   #80
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Originally Posted by Jules Galen View Post
Lemme see...these guys show with weapons and in the middle of the day. seems like they had a target to me, they just didn't foresee the outside help with the AR-15.

This whole thing stinks like a bad drug deal...at least to me.
I suspect that her three stooges did not have the ability to forsee anything.

Bad drug deal makes no sense at all. given the deceased wouldn't rule it out, but it is illogical.
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