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Tags legal issues , murder cases , Oklahoma incidents , shooting incidents

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Old 28th March 2017, 09:34 PM   #81
Jules Galen
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Originally Posted by Noztradamus View Post
I suspect that her three stooges did not have the ability to forsee anything.

Bad drug deal makes no sense at all. given the deceased wouldn't rule it out, but it is illogical.
No bad drug deal? Why do you say that, even though I suspect that?

Thanks.
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Old 28th March 2017, 09:51 PM   #82
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Originally Posted by Jules Galen View Post
No bad drug deal? Why do you say that, even though I suspect that?

Thanks.
Who is the putative dealer? The homeowner/son? Customers showing up masked. Not a smart move.

The 3 guys drumming for the actual merchandise held by the lady dealer? (as no drugs found on the 3). Again showing up masked not smart.

Attempted drug ripoff? They aren't weaponised enough to attempt that.

I'll go with attempted breakin/robbery with intent to flee if home found occupied.
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Old 28th March 2017, 10:39 PM   #83
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Originally Posted by Noztradamus View Post
Who is the putative dealer? The homeowner/son? Customers showing up masked. Not a smart move.

The 3 guys drumming for the actual merchandise held by the lady dealer? (as no drugs found on the 3). Again showing up masked not smart.

Attempted drug ripoff? They aren't weaponised enough to attempt that.

I'll go with attempted breakin/robbery with intent to flee if home found occupied.
Without 20-20 Hindsight, you couldn't know that!

Anyways, maybe it is...and maybe it ain't, We'll see.
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Old 28th March 2017, 10:46 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by Jules Galen View Post
Lemme see...these guys show with weapons and in the middle of the day. seems like they had a target to me, they just didn't foresee the outside help with the AR-15.

This whole thing stinks like a bad drug deal...at least to me.
I'm not really hip on the protocols for today's drug deals, but aren't they mostly simple business transactions that don't involve breaking into a home?

Quote:
About 18 years ago, a farmer named Tony Martin was convicted of murder for killing two home invaders:
My knowledge of the Tony Martin case is limited mostly to Wikipedia, but it seems that the courts looked at the surviving burglar and the getaway driver as more victims than career criminals who were involved in the death of a co-conspirator. The two surviving perps got off with only a few years in jail.

Last edited by Ranb; 28th March 2017 at 11:00 PM.
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Old 28th March 2017, 10:48 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
I'm not really hip on the protocols for today's drug deals, but aren't they mostly simple business transactions that don't involve breaking into a home?
Well...unless someone steals from someone else.
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Old 28th March 2017, 10:57 PM   #86
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
I'm not really hip on the protocols for today's drug deals, but aren't they mostly simple business transactions that don't involve breaking into a home?
Yeah, that's usually reserved for either theft, or attacking the residents.
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Old 28th March 2017, 11:14 PM   #87
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Originally Posted by Jules Galen View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Noztradamus

Attempted drug ripoff? They aren't weaponised enough to attempt that.
Without 20-20 Hindsight, you couldn't know that!

Anyways, maybe it is...and maybe it ain't, We'll see.
Hard as it be to believe. I seem to have a higher opinion of the unfortunate gang's intelligence than you do

Bandit queen: I want you to rip off this guy for drugs and money. He has a AR-15. so tool up
Teen1: I have a knife
Teen2: I gots brass knucks
Teen3: I use harsh words
Bandit queen: Good enough
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Old 28th March 2017, 11:21 PM   #88
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Originally Posted by Noztradamus View Post
Hard as it be to believe. I seem to have a higher opinion of the unfortunate gang's intelligence than you do

Bandit queen: I want you to rip off this guy for drugs and money. He has a AR-15. so tool up
Teen1: I have a knife
Teen2: I gots brass knucks
Teen3: I use harsh words
Bandit queen: Good enough
The AR-15 is "death per a trigger pull". It is an an amazing rifle and so far ahead of most weapons that it it is hard for me to believe that anyone should challenge it's supremacy unless they have death wish....(or a bunch of other AR-15's backing them up).
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Old 28th March 2017, 11:25 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by Jules Galen View Post
The AR-15 is "death per a trigger pull". It is an an amazing rifle and so far ahead of most weapons that it it is hard for me to believe that anyone should challenge it's supremacy unless they have death wish....(or a bunch of other AR-15's backing them up).
Hey, that was my point! (absent the hyperbole)
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Old 28th March 2017, 11:32 PM   #90
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The most puzzling aspect of that story to me has always been the fact that when you commit a crime, and somebody kill your accomplice you are under penalty of first degree murder. A quirk of the US system as far as I can tell. One should only be accused of crime they started, and the killing of her accomplice is a separate issue under the responsibility of the person shooting IMO.
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Old 28th March 2017, 11:51 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by Aepervius View Post
The most puzzling aspect of that story to me has always been the fact that when you commit a crime, and somebody kill your accomplice you are under penalty of first degree murder. A quirk of the US system as far as I can tell. One should only be accused of crime they started, and the killing of her accomplice is a separate issue under the responsibility of the person shooting IMO.
As I recall, that sort of thing became popular during the "tough on crime" phase of US history, and since we're discussing violent crime in many cases where this is invoked, it's very low priority for most reformers (compared to, for example, three-strikes legislation, jail for nonviolent drug crimes, and police department reforms).
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Old 28th March 2017, 11:57 PM   #92
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
It's actually quite hard to shoot someone in the hand, which is small and can move pretty quickly. It can be done, but it takes a degree of skill and precision that most regular folks just don't have.
About seven hours ago, I graduated from our city's Citizens Police Academy. One of the sessions involved putting us through Shoot/Don't Shoot scenarios, where we were given a "gun" and had to react to various computer-controlled situations shown on a large movie screen.

I'm an experienced target shooter and I participate in timed matches, where the clock adds just a little tension. Under those circumstances, hitting a stationary target at all, let alone hitting a specific point on a target, is comparatively easy, but misses do happen.

In the Police Academy scenarios, the targets were moving, popping up out of unexpected places and shooting back. We were told to aim for the Center of Mass, aka the torso, since that is the easiest area to hit. I never did hit the torso, although I did manage to accidentally hit everything else.

Point being, "Just shoot the weapon out of his hand" is something that is only said by someone who knows nothing about firearms or armed combat. It's damned hard to hit a moving target at all, and I can only try to imagine what it's like when you're scared stiff. And I can almost guarantee the shooter here was scared stiff.

Shoot the weapon out of his hand, or shoot to wound? Good luck with that, you're going to need it.

Btw, that kid is probably going to need months, if not years, of counceling. He'll learn to live with it, but it'll be part of him for the rest of his life.

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Old 29th March 2017, 03:11 AM   #93
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
The shooter himself is only 23 and the getaway driver, Rodriguez, claims to have known him. He is exculpated, apparently, by the 'stand your ground' right. Could still be charged and cite this as a defence.
Not stand your ground, castle doctrine.
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Old 29th March 2017, 03:18 AM   #94
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
I'm not in that particular state, but yes where I live I am certainly legally entitled to defend myself from a home invasion.
Hell is there a state in the US that this doesn't seem like a clear case of self defense? I guess if he was in a back room, knew they broke in and went toward them instead of away in some states maybe, but with out that kind of situation where he could have fled but chose not to I don't think that this would be a question in any state.
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Old 29th March 2017, 03:26 AM   #95
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Originally Posted by Aepervius View Post
The most puzzling aspect of that story to me has always been the fact that when you commit a crime, and somebody kill your accomplice you are under penalty of first degree murder. A quirk of the US system as far as I can tell. One should only be accused of crime they started, and the killing of her accomplice is a separate issue under the responsibility of the person shooting IMO.
It stems from the idea that if you are say the get away driver in a bank robbery and your coworkers kill people you are liable for that as well as the crimes that were planned. It was just expanded to any death.
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Old 29th March 2017, 03:28 AM   #96
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So, did a murder actually happen? Or was it a 'stand your ground' shooting?

That would mean a 'stand your ground' shooting technically a murder for which the shooter is pardoned rather than a completely different event in the eyes of the law?
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Old 29th March 2017, 03:36 AM   #97
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Even in the UK you are entitled to engage an intruder if they break into your house. You don't need to make them a cup of tea and ask their intentions before you start. You must demonstrate (after the event) that you used reasonable force, but if a UK gun owner shot a knife wielding intruder and his accomplices after they kicked in the door I'd bet dollars to donuts that he (or she) would not be charged.

Tony Martin got into trouble because the intruders were fleeing and posed him no threat at the point he shot them. He also used an illegally held weapon, but that's a different matter.
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Old 29th March 2017, 03:36 AM   #98
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
So, did a murder actually happen? Or was it a 'stand your ground' shooting?

That would mean a 'stand your ground' shooting technically a murder for which the shooter is pardoned rather than a completely different event in the eyes of the law?
The driver sent her accomplices in harm's way, and got them killed. That's why she's being charged with murder.
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Old 29th March 2017, 03:39 AM   #99
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Originally Posted by Jules Galen View Post
Is there not some rock under which you can crawl?
Reported
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Old 29th March 2017, 04:05 AM   #100
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I hold up a bank with a partner and...

► partner shoots and kills a bank guard, or

► partner is shot and killed by a bank guard, or

► in a shootout, the bank guard accidentally kills another bank employee or customer.

...then AIUI, I can be charged with felony murder in the death of any of these individuals, right?

The logical basis appears to be that if I had not been holding up the bank, these people would still be alive.
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Old 29th March 2017, 04:44 AM   #101
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Originally Posted by Aepervius View Post
The most puzzling aspect of that story to me has always been the fact that when you commit a crime, and somebody kill your accomplice you are under penalty of first degree murder. A quirk of the US system as far as I can tell.
It's not just a US thing. It's present in many legal systems, including the UK's. There was a famous case involving it back in the death penalty days, but I forget the name of it. I think he got the death penalty because he was one of several people committing a robbery and one of his partners shot and killed a cop. Anybody remember that one?
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Old 29th March 2017, 04:49 AM   #102
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
As far as the home invasion victim (the shooter) is concerned, Oklahoma law seems to be protecting him unless there is other evidence that shows the shooter was not acting in defense of himself.
Home invaders should expect to get shot dead. If someone breaks down my door, I'm not going to ask them whether they just want to steal my TV or rape my wife. I'll respond with deadly force if I can, and deal with the consequences later.
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Old 29th March 2017, 04:50 AM   #103
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
No, all they had was a knife and some brass knuckle dusters, according to early reports. In the USA if your accomplices in a felony die, for whatever reason in the course of the crime (usually burglary or robbery) you can be charged with their first degree murder.

Apparently, this state has a 'Make My Day' law, which means you can shoot any intruder to smithereens with impunity.
They inherited that from English common law, applies in the UK as well.
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Old 29th March 2017, 04:53 AM   #104
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
The felony didn't result in a homicide. The shooter isn't being charged.

It seems the driver is being charged with the separate crime of "getting her friends killed by taking part in their home invasion, i.e., murdering them".
That seems weird to me; more of a deterrent law than one that really makes sense. The driver is accessory to the crime of home invasion, and I guess triple manslaughter could be the charge because his actions led to three deaths, but it's not like he drove them there in order to get them killed.
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Old 29th March 2017, 04:59 AM   #105
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
It's not just a US thing. It's present in many legal systems, including the UK's. There was a famous case involving it back in the death penalty days, but I forget the name of it. I think he got the death penalty because he was one of several people committing a robbery and one of his partners shot and killed a cop. Anybody remember that one?
Derek Bentley, the last man to be executed for murder in Britain. It wasn't quite that simple; he was convicted because he was judged to have encouraged Christopher Craig, who fired the shot, by shouting "Let him have it, Chris." It was that statement that was used to establish common enterprise rather than just the fact that they were accomplices in the robbery.

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Old 29th March 2017, 05:01 AM   #106
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
It's not just a US thing. It's present in many legal systems, including the UK's. There was a famous case involving it back in the death penalty days, but I forget the name of it. I think he got the death penalty because he was one of several people committing a robbery and one of his partners shot and killed a cop. Anybody remember that one?
Derek Bentley?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derek_Bentley_case
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Old 29th March 2017, 05:06 AM   #107
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
A young life is more important than grandma's silver candlesticks. Come on. Leave the crime solving to the police. Claim on your insurance.
They invaded an occupied home in the middle of the day. I think it's fair to assume they had violent plans in mind, especially from the perspective of the occupant.
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Old 29th March 2017, 05:07 AM   #108
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
I hold up a bank with a partner and...

► partner shoots and kills a bank guard, or

► partner is shot and killed by a bank guard, or

► in a shootout, the bank guard accidentally kills another bank employee or customer.

...then AIUI, I can be charged with felony murder in the death of any of these individuals, right?
Right, as far as I know. You're charged for murder if *anyone* is killed while you and your partner are in commission of the felony.

If you and your partner escapes, and someone dies while your partner is being captured by police days later...I think this does not apply, although I'm no expert. But a prosecutor could still go for it.

Quote:
The logical basis appears to be that if I had not been holding up the bank, these people would still be alive.
I'd call it "legal" rather than "logical", but that's part of it. Really, it's more emotional than logical - a lot of people would just want to see you punished.

Last edited by Mumbles; 29th March 2017 at 05:09 AM.
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Old 29th March 2017, 05:07 AM   #109
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Looking into it more, it seems that England repealed the felony murder law a while ago, and australia still has it.

"England and Wales, Northern Ireland - The rule was abolished in England and Wales by section 1 of the Homicide Act 1957, and in Northern Ireland by section 8 of the Criminal Justice Act (Northern Ireland) 1966; but its effect is preserved by the application of the Common Law principle of "Joint Enterprise". In England and Wales, the definition of murder requires only an intent to cause grievous bodily harm to the victim, rather than specific intent to kill; the effect is the same as that of the felony murder rule applied to crimes of personal violence, though not to all felonies."

"Australia[edit]
18(1)(a) of the Crimes Act 1900 (NSW)[15] provides the statutory definition of ‘constructive murder’. The act or omission causing death must be ‘done in an attempt to commit or during or immediately after the commission, by the accused, or some accomplice with him or her, of a crime punishable by imprisonment for life or for 25 years’.[16] The rationale is to discourage acts of felony which are dangerous to human life.

Ryan[17] clarifies the elements of constructive murder. The prosecution must prove beyond reasonable doubt: (1) a base offence with 25 years’ imprisonment or more; and that (2) the act causing death occurred in attempt, during, or immediately after this base offence. This means that the prosecution must prove both the actus reus and mens rea of this base offence. Munro[18] confirmed that the mens rea of the act causing death is not required to prove constructive murder. For example, the accused may commit an act causing death in the course of robbery or armed robbery without any intention to kill, to inflict grievous bodily harm, or with reckless indifference to human life."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Felony...rule#Australia

But in detail it seems that this could well be a charge still in either nation with the seeming facts of this case.
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Old 29th March 2017, 05:14 AM   #110
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
If say, all they showed him was a knife, then why not just shoot him in the hand? Give them a chance to get out.
This isn't the movies. You can't just shoot limbs and expect to hit anything. Even trained professionals have trouble hitting the torso. The guy's lucky to have killed all three.

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Old 29th March 2017, 05:22 AM   #111
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The felony-murder rule is pretty common in the US. Where disputes arise isn't in charging and convicting of first degree murder, but imposing the death penalty for the rule.

Here's an interesting 1982 Supreme Court decision where the getaway driver ended up convicted of murder and sentenced to death: https://www.oyez.org/cases/1981/81-5321
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Old 29th March 2017, 05:30 AM   #112
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Originally Posted by Camillus View Post
Even in the UK you are entitled to engage an intruder if they break into your house. You don't need to make them a cup of tea and ask their intentions before you start. You must demonstrate (after the event) that you used reasonable force, but if a UK gun owner shot a knife wielding intruder and his accomplices after they kicked in the door I'd bet dollars to donuts that he (or she) would not be charged.
Good post. Proportionality of the response seems to work pretty well in civilised jurisdictions.
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Old 29th March 2017, 05:34 AM   #113
Giz
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Just a note on the UK: while there isn't "felony murder", there is the joint enterprise law. See:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Garry_Newlove
For a case where someone in the UK was found guilty of murder under "joint enterprise".
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Old 29th March 2017, 05:47 AM   #114
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I had a neighborhood kid (tall, 17 years old) walk into my downstairs bedroom after midnight one night, which had a door to the outside. He panicked and ran when I turned on the light. He yet lives, and has grandchildren.

I caught two Romanian thieves breaking into my restaurant one night from a light shaft, hammering through wall masonry. I could have waited until they popped in to off them and made any sort of claim to self defense.

In any situation, it's a situation, not a template. It is perfectly possible, with the information given so far in this case, that there was (1) no or (2) every possibility of avoiding killing these three young men. I'm not the one to judge that. What I will say, however, is that rote celebration of application of the death penalty is pretty damn sick, especially for an atheist, who knows that it is the most final of all finalities.
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Old 29th March 2017, 05:59 AM   #115
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Apparently, two individuals were in the home, the shooter and another person. If the criminals were aware of this, then this is a classic "home invasion".... An armed robbery of a residence.

The intent is to terrorize the residents into giving up whatever valuables are present... Most of these crimes are drug-related.

The robbers... Three in this case, and armed with a knife and brass knuckles... Would seem to indicate that this was their intent rather than a stealthy "burglary" of an unoccupied home.

Often, such crimes result in the torture and murder of the victims....

If the female driver indeed planned this crime, and knew the residents were likely to be home...Then she deserves whatever she gets. Evidently she did not know the residents would be armed.
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Old 29th March 2017, 06:03 AM   #116
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I'm still unsure if a murder actually happened.
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Old 29th March 2017, 06:07 AM   #117
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Originally Posted by Hlafordlaes View Post
It is perfectly possible, with the information given so far in this case, that there was (1) no or (2) every possibility of avoiding killing these three young men. I'm not the one to judge that.
That's a pretty high bar you set there, and you're asking victims of home invasion to consider other possibilities before they resort to violence to defend their homes and their lives. I'm not willing to put that burden on them. The mere fact of a home invasion is enough to suspect bodily harm is coming to you or your family, and that's justification for lethal force, in my opinion. If you don't want that to happen to you, don't break into people's homes.

Quote:
What I will say, however, is that rote celebration of application of the death penalty is pretty damn sick, especially for an atheist, who knows that it is the most final of all finalities.
What does atheism have to do with it? The death penalty never had anything to do with sending people to the afterlife. It's more about vengeance, deterrence or other issues. But this isn't what we're talking about. Self-defense isn't a death penalty in any way, shape or form, and I find your use of this term to characterise the victim's defense of his life and home to be quite distasteful.
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Old 29th March 2017, 06:08 AM   #118
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Originally Posted by Hlafordlaes View Post
I had a neighborhood kid (tall, 17 years old) walk into my downstairs bedroom after midnight one night, which had a door to the outside. He panicked and ran when I turned on the light. He yet lives, and has grandchildren.

I caught two Romanian thieves breaking into my restaurant one night from a light shaft, hammering through wall masonry. I could have waited until they popped in to off them and made any sort of claim to self defense.

In any situation, it's a situation, not a template. It is perfectly possible, with the information given so far in this case, that there was (1) no or (2) every possibility of avoiding killing these three young men. I'm not the one to judge that. What I will say, however, is that rote celebration of application of the death penalty is pretty damn sick, especially for an atheist, who knows that it is the most final of all finalities.


Who is celebrating?
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Old 29th March 2017, 06:11 AM   #119
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
I'm still unsure if a murder actually happened.
Which of the people involved are you looking at? Are you looking at the "driver"? The prosecutor is charging her with murder, as she appears to have really been the ringleader and instigator of the home invasion, and therefore responsible for the deaths of her accomplices. Was it actually murder, though? I think the courts will have to decide.

Are you looking at the resident who shot her accomplices? He hasn't been charged with anything. Is there an unindicted murder there? Apparently the police and the prosecutor don't think there is.
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Old 29th March 2017, 06:13 AM   #120
ponderingturtle
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
I'm still unsure if a murder actually happened.
What definition of murder are you using? The laws being used in this case have been clearly stated in this thread, why are you hung up on this point?
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