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Tags legal issues , murder cases , Oklahoma incidents , shooting incidents

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Old 30th March 2017, 03:08 PM   #321
Ron Swanson
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Here in the UK we had this guy who hatched a wicked plan to take revenge on burglars. He built a trap on the stairs , lay in wait, and when expected perp turned up, he sprung the trap and topped them.

Thankfully, he received British justice.
That has NOTHING to do with what we are talking about ... but FYI?

Spring guns and traps of this bent have been illegal in the US since 1825 ... two YEARS, before they were made illegal in the UK

Next?
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Old 30th March 2017, 03:09 PM   #322
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I am pretty liberal and don't really like guns.

But if three armed men wearing ski masks broke into my house, I would *********** shoot them if I had a gun. I don't fault the homeowner here one bit and no way would I convict him if the DA charged him with a crime (unless there is more to the story).

Boo hoo, they died. It is their fault. Maybe don't break into houses. Or at least be smart enough to be sure nobody is home before you do.

The homeowner actually showed some concern for these people's lives, it seems. He was telling the 911 operator to make sure EMS got there because he thought one of them got shot bad. So he didn't even want them to die. He was just trying to protect himself.

Last edited by Tony Stark; 30th March 2017 at 03:12 PM.
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Old 30th March 2017, 03:11 PM   #323
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Originally Posted by Giz View Post
"Trespass"?

They weren't on his front lawn. They broke into his house while armed. That's rather more threatening than mere trespass.
Agreed! petty trespass is a summary conviction, usually resulting in a small fine here (usually only issued after multiple infractions as well) .......

breaking into a home? ... that's nothing similar.
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Old 30th March 2017, 03:11 PM   #324
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
The three burglar teens are the authors of their own mishap. However, we can't have people feeling they are free to shoot dead anyone who happens to trespass on their property. That is a terrible precedent. What on earth do you have there: the old Wild West...?
Oh, I think I now understand. These 3 teens got lost on their way to the mountains for a skiing trip; accidentally trespassed while breaking a window to ask the homeowner for directions, and the homeowner felt free to shoot them dead for no reason at all.
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Old 30th March 2017, 03:15 PM   #325
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Originally Posted by Giz View Post
I thought you were worried about "young lives being ruined"? Why do you want to ruin this guy's life?
Where did I say that? I do believe the law should apply to everybody equally. The idea that if you are rich you can gun down some poor kid whose ambition in life is to steal a case of beer, is not equitable.

It is a War Crime to simply shoot dead captured prisoners in a war, they should be brought to a proper trial, with correct legal protocols applied.

If it was genuine self-defence, and proportional, that's fine. However, I can't help thinking there may have been an element of schadenfreude, given he shot them as he was coming down the stairs. May have been revenge for the booze stolen from the garage earlier.
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Old 30th March 2017, 03:23 PM   #326
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
May have been revenge for the booze stolen from the garage earlier.
They broke in, twice, the second time armed and masked. How would the victim possibly know their intentions? This isn't a police drama, but real life, and I can tell you from experience, it only takes a split second for things to go very bad.
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Old 30th March 2017, 03:24 PM   #327
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Where did I say that? I do believe the law should apply to everybody equally. The idea that if you are rich you can gun down some poor kid whose ambition in life is to steal a case of beer, is not equitable.
If you're some poor kid whose ambition in life is to steal some beer, maybe walk into a convenience store and run out with it instead of breaking into someone's house while armed and wearing a ski mask.

Quote:
It is a War Crime to simply shoot dead captured prisoners in a war, they should be brought to a proper trial, with correct legal protocols applied.
However, it is not a war crime to just kill people that pose a threat to you in in a war.

Quote:
If it was genuine self-defence, and proportional, that's fine. However, I can't help thinking there may have been an element of schadenfreude, given he shot them as he was coming down the stairs. May have been revenge for the booze stolen from the garage earlier.
Did you listen to the 911 tape. He expressed concern for their lives by asking the operator to make sure EMS got there.
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Old 30th March 2017, 03:28 PM   #328
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Originally Posted by Resume View Post
They broke in, twice, the second time armed and masked. How would the victim possibly know their intentions? This isn't a police drama, but real life, and I can tell you from experience, it only takes a split second for things to go very bad.
Armed usually means with a loaded gun. None of the three had a gun. That tells you they were not there to kill. The ski masks were likely donned to stop ID on area CCTV camera.

I agree it can take a split second, that is why the law needs to be very clear on this. I am sure we can all think of an occasion when we could have happily caused someone a painful injury, and thank goodness you didn't.
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Old 30th March 2017, 03:29 PM   #329
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
..... However, I can't help thinking there may have been an element of schadenfreude ....
You have NO right to say that ... that is deplorable ... shake your head!
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Old 30th March 2017, 03:30 PM   #330
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Armed usually means with a loaded gun ..
No it does not
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Old 30th March 2017, 03:30 PM   #331
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Originally Posted by Tony Stark View Post
If you're some poor kid whose ambition in life is to steal some beer, maybe walk into a convenience store and run out with it instead of breaking into someone's house while armed and wearing a ski mask.



However, it is not a war crime to just kill people that pose a threat to you in in a war.



Did you listen to the 911 tape. He expressed concern for their lives by asking the operator to make sure EMS got there.
Yes, he sounds like a nice guy. However, the law has to be objective. It shouldn't depend on whether you are perceived as nice, or not.
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Old 30th March 2017, 03:31 PM   #332
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Armed usually means with a loaded gun. None of the three had a gun. That tells you they were not there to kill. The ski masks were likely donned to stop ID on area CCTV camera.
You have to be joking. A knife is going armed. From experience, I can tell you it is a deadly weapon. Brass knuckles are illegal for a reason.

Quote:
I agree it can take a split second, that is why the law needs to be very clear on this. I am sure we can all think of an occasion when we could have happily caused someone a painful injury, and thank goodness you didn't.
I can think of an occasion (more than one) where I would happily have caused an injury and would be thankful I did.
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Last edited by Resume; 30th March 2017 at 03:38 PM.
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Old 30th March 2017, 03:31 PM   #333
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
Complete 100% hogwash.

Does this 79 year-old man look like a drug dealer to you? His house has been broken into 13 times since June and he finally shot the violent criminal, and took a bullet himself.

Alabama man kills home invader: 'I hate that boy dead, but I don't hate I shot him'
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2017/03/30...-shot-him.html



Sound familiar?



Only drug dealers are victims of home invasions - got it.
FOr once we agree...Jules's statement is 100% B.S.
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Old 30th March 2017, 03:32 PM   #334
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Armed usually means with a loaded gun. None of the three had a gun. That tells you they were not there to kill. The ski masks were likely donned to stop ID on area CCTV camera.

I agree it can take a split second, that is why the law needs to be very clear on this. I am sure we can all think of an occasion when we could have happily caused someone a painful injury, and thank goodness you didn't.
If you want to bet your life that three armed men wearing masks who broke into your home won't hurt you, go right ahead.

Many people won't do the same. And the law will correctly protect them.

Last edited by Tony Stark; 30th March 2017 at 03:33 PM.
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Old 30th March 2017, 03:33 PM   #335
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Yes, he sounds like a nice guy. However, the law has to be objective. It shouldn't depend on whether you are perceived as nice, or not.
And objectively, he broke no law by killing these people. Unless there is way more to the story.
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Old 30th March 2017, 03:36 PM   #336
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Originally Posted by fuelair View Post
I like the trench knife for that - handle is hard metal knuckle duster and the blade cuts nicely - great for close in fighting. Though there is a lovely device that has a short but heart-reaching blade that goes on the hand. You just turn palm down as you strike with it and the blade goes right in. Amazing how many customers did not realize immediately why you needed to do that. I also recommend Gerber Mark 1 and 11s except after they started being made in China (idiot move). All mine are US.
Then there is the classic KaBar knife...popular among Marines in World War 2.
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Old 30th March 2017, 03:36 PM   #337
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Once, these two scumbags robbed me of my cellphone. It was a Galaxy Note 2. Brand new. They came up to me and told me to give it to them. I tried to run. They tackled me to the ground and took it from me. One of them threw a rock at my head. I had to get some staples, but besides that wasn't really hurt. They were never caught.

I would have killed them if I could have and not really felt bad about it.
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Old 30th March 2017, 03:37 PM   #338
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Originally Posted by Tony Stark View Post
And objectively, he broke no law by killing these people. Unless there is way more to the story.
Which is possible, but not yet in evidence.
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Old 30th March 2017, 03:41 PM   #339
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I find it very troubling that somebody seems to have a lot more compassion for the criminals then for the victims in this case.
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Old 30th March 2017, 03:51 PM   #340
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Originally Posted by Tony Stark View Post
Once, these two scumbags robbed me of my cellphone. It was a Galaxy Note 2. Brand new. They came up to me and told me to give it to them. I tried to run. They tackled me to the ground and took it from me. One of them threw a rock at my head. I had to get some staples, but besides that wasn't really hurt. They were never caught.

I would have killed them if I could have and not really felt bad about it.
It only takes one experience with violent crime, how easily and quickly it all goes bad, to change your perspective.
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Old 30th March 2017, 04:24 PM   #341
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Armed usually means with a loaded gun. None of the three had a gun. That tells you they were not there to kill. The ski masks were likely donned to stop ID on area CCTV camera.
CCTV? In suburban Oklahoma? Damn, that's ignorant. You know so little about the place and people, yet you insist you know better than everyone what happened, what could have happened, what should have happened. CCTV. I mean, daaaaaamn, you know too little to even know how ridiculous that suggestion is.
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Old 30th March 2017, 04:24 PM   #342
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
The three burglar teens are the authors of their own mishap. However, we can't have people feeling they are free to shoot dead anyone who happens to trespass on their property. That is a terrible precedent. What on earth do you have there: the old Wild West...?
I live in Florida, we certainly can!!! Though the likelihood I will need to is extremely low - but, hey, I do value my life much, much, more than that of someone forcing their way in with intent to harm - and I am not a mind reader!!!
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Old 30th March 2017, 04:32 PM   #343
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I find it very troubling that somebody seems to have a lot more compassion for the criminals then for the victims in this case.
Maybe overcommitted to an anti-gun philosophy? I don't know.
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Old 30th March 2017, 04:37 PM   #344
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Armed usually means with a loaded gun.
In regards to the story that I told about scum robbing me of my cellphone, the cops told me that if they were caught, they would be charged with armed robbery and assault with a deadly weapon. Their weapon? A rock.
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Old 30th March 2017, 04:53 PM   #345
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Armed usually means with a loaded gun. None of the three had a gun. That tells you they were not there to kill. The ski masks were likely donned to stop ID on area CCTV camera.

I agree it can take a split second, that is why the law needs to be very clear on this. I am sure we can all think of an occasion when we could have happily caused someone a painful injury, and thank goodness you didn't.
People don't kill others with knives? Or are you saying knives are not meant to kill?

If it's the first, you are wrong, if it's the second I have over 2 dozen items that prove you wrong, just in my "old and boring" knife drawer.
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Old 30th March 2017, 04:54 PM   #346
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Yes, he sounds like a nice guy. However, the law has to be objective. It shouldn't depend on whether you are perceived as nice, or not.
Neither does self defense.
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Old 30th March 2017, 05:53 PM   #347
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
He did shoot randomly. Hit one in the upper body - had no idea what happened to the others - thought one was still talking and that he'd only shot two. One managed to crawl out to the lawn, whereupon the getaway driver drove off and left him to die.
This is very naive thinking; shooting randomly would most likely ensure no one was injured at all. Try it sometime with a semi-automatic rifle yourself and you will understand.

Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Armed usually means with a loaded gun. None of the three had a gun.
Really? I don't think anyone actually believes this is true. Is that what the word means in the UK? It certainly doesn't mean this in the USA or in any dictionary I've read.

Last edited by Ranb; 30th March 2017 at 06:03 PM.
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Old 30th March 2017, 06:03 PM   #348
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
They thought the home was unoccupied.

http://m.tulsaworld.com/communities/...5dadb99ce.html
I think the right term is denial.
Quote:
“They just made a bad judgment call, and they ended up dying because of it,” he said.
Really? A bad call? One bad call? I say their bad call was actually a long string of fatal errors starting with the plan to break in, to bring weapons and finally not retreat prior to being shot.

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Collins said he doesn’t believe that his friends ever set out to hurt anyone.
That's what the weapons were for then I suppose.

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“I’m getting blasted on Facebook for sticking up for my friend and grieving over my friend’s death when I know he’s not like that,” she said. “If they don’t know him, they don’t deserve to talk down on him.”
Unless he was dragged to the crime scene by the others, he really was like that. He deserves it all as far as I can tell.
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Old 30th March 2017, 06:24 PM   #349
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
This is very naive thinking; shooting randomly would most likely ensure no one was injured at all. Try it sometime with a semi-automatic rifle yourself and you will understand.


Really? I don't think anyone actually believes this is true. Is that what the word means in the UK? It certainly doesn't mean this in the USA or in any dictionary I've read.
It sad that Americans live in such a dangerous country they cheer when criminals are shot and sleep with AR 15's by their beds.

To come out en masse like macho Rambo Terminators when some 16-year old kid dies on somebody's kitchen floor or front lawn (albeit because of their colossal stupidity) informs me there is something wrong with your society.

Where you have this type of fear (cf Oscar Pistorius) it is usually an indicator of wide social distance (cf Brazil), leading to a situation where the rich have to put up barricades around themselves to keep out the no-hope poor, who themselves get even more violent.

Mad world. Illogical world.
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Old 30th March 2017, 06:27 PM   #350
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
This is very naive thinking; shooting randomly would most likely ensure no one was injured at all. Try it sometime with a semi-automatic rifle yourself and you will understand.


Really? I don't think anyone actually believes this is true. Is that what the word means in the UK? It certainly doesn't mean this in the USA or in any dictionary I've read.
Armed robbery means = with a gun or imitation gun in the UK. A knife, baton or a cosh is merely 'an offensive weapon'.

If referring to a knife, a newsreader might say, 'armed with a knife', but if he or she just says, 'armed' it is taken to mean, with a gun.
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Old 30th March 2017, 06:35 PM   #351
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Vixen, any chance you could clarify what you mean when you claimed shooting randomly resulted in three people bring killed? I've been shooting rifles for many years, I've never been able to hit any target by shooting randomly. How do you do it?

Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
It sad that Americans live in such a dangerous country they cheer when criminals are shot ....
This doesn't happen in the UK?

Quote:
To come out en masse like macho Rambo Terminators when some 16-year old kid dies on somebody's kitchen floor or front lawn (albeit because of their colossal stupidity) informs me there is something wrong with your society.
Where is this happening? Got a link?

Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Armed robbery means = with a gun or imitation gun in the UK. A knife, baton or a cosh is merely 'an offensive weapon'.
You're making this up right? Got a link to the law which says you're correct?

Last edited by Ranb; 30th March 2017 at 06:38 PM.
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Old 30th March 2017, 06:36 PM   #352
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
This doesn't happen in the UK?


Where is this happening? Got a link?
Read back on this thread. About 99% are glad these three teens were shot dead!

No, it doesn't happen in the UK.
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Old 30th March 2017, 06:39 PM   #353
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Armed robbery means = with a gun or imitation gun in the UK. A knife, baton or a cosh is merely 'an offensive weapon'.

If referring to a knife, a newsreader might say, 'armed with a knife', but if he or she just says, 'armed' it is taken to mean, with a gun.
So what? Jack the Ripper did just fine with a knife.

http://www.criminaldefenselawyer.com...dly-Weapon.htm
Quote:
An assault with a deadly weapon occurs when an attacker accompanies a physical attack with a physical object capable of inflicting serious bodily injury or death, by virtue of its design or construction. Because the use of a dangerous object creates a risk of such serious consequences, all states classify assault with a deadly weapon as a felony. (Judges and lawyers often refer to the crime as “ADW.”)

“Deadly weapon” generally refers to a wide range of objects that can inflict mortal or great bodily harm—for example a car or a golf club. Some states consider knives and guns as "deadly weapons per se," which means that the prosecutor need not present evidence of their ability to cause mortal or serious injury. And some instruments, such as pocketknives, shoes, canes, walking sticks, and stones, while not deadly by design, can become "deadly weapons" depending on how the defendant has used them.
http://criminal-law.freeadvice.com/c...ed-robbery.htm
Quote:
Armed robbery is a form of robbery which involves theft of property and carrying (or the pretense) of a weapon. It is considered a higher category of offenses relating to thefts and the use of force. Even though many of the elements of theft, robbery, and armed robbery overlap, an armed robbery conviction has significantly harsher consequences. Continue to learn more about the offense of armed robbery . . .
In addition to firearms, other items can be considered weapons or deadly weapons. Different states use different standards for what is required regarding the use of a deadly weapon. Some only require the use of a weapon, which is any object that could potentially harm another. Other states says it is any object that is capable of causing death or serious bodily injury, even if there is no actual injury inflicted. There are no limitations on what object can potentially be considered a weapon under either standard. Weapons include: knives, bb guns, lead pipes, broken bottles, pieces of glass. If a defendant cannot avoid a conviction for robbery, usually the best defensive theory will be to negate the weapon or deadly weapon allegation in order to get the lesser charge.
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Last edited by Resume; 30th March 2017 at 06:49 PM.
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Old 30th March 2017, 06:46 PM   #354
Tony Stark
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Read back on this thread. About 99% are glad these three teens were shot dead!

No, it doesn't happen in the UK.
Glad? Not really. More that I don't care. And think it certainly should not be criminal on the part of the guy that shot them.
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Old 30th March 2017, 06:50 PM   #355
Ranb
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Read back on this thread. About 99% are glad these three teens were shot dead!
99%? How many people are posting in this thread? Twenty or so? I didn't get an exact count, but with 9 pages of 40 posts each that is under 400 posts so far. 99% of people who are glad the teens are dead would most likely include both me and you. I know I haven't expressed any glee over these deaths and brief scan of the pages shows very little glee in general.

I have seen much disagreement with your claims and conclusions though. If a person does not agree with what you say, then they're glad these people were killed?

How about more skepticism and less hyperbole?

How about telling us exactly what armed robbery means in the UK statutes? You can't really expect anyone here to just take your word on it can you?

Last edited by Ranb; 30th March 2017 at 06:51 PM.
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Old 30th March 2017, 06:54 PM   #356
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Originally Posted by applecorped View Post
These weren't kids, they were criminals, and now they're dead, see how that works?
Is there any crime for which you think shooting someone dead is not an appropriate response?
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Old 30th March 2017, 07:47 PM   #357
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Originally Posted by Babbylonian View Post
Wow. As someone who hates guns and has often found fault with "stand your ground" nonsense, I can't believe anyone could argue that it's in any way wrong to shoot 3 people who have invaded your home. Unless they break in while you're right next to a door that is 15 feet or less away from a police station, getting your gun and taking your shot(s) is a very reasonable course of action.
Could have been once the situation got out of control. But I would like to know what led up to this situation.

Did there people know each other? I bet they did....and I bet there's a whole-nuther story we have not been told.
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Old 30th March 2017, 07:52 PM   #358
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Originally Posted by Jules Galen View Post
...and I bet there's a whole-nuther story we have not been told.
There always is. This is why people on both sides of the argument can come up with ridiculous hypotheticals that bear no relation to the incident in question.
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Old 30th March 2017, 08:26 PM   #359
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
I'm with you, but the law in the US seems to work differently and a fleeing criminal can be shot in the back with immunity, if I recall correctly. i think there's case law that tallies with this (I may be wrong, I often am).

I'm wondering - not of you, but of anyone that knows about this stuff - what the law is in this instance.
It’s a bit complicated. As usual, it varies a great deal from state to state.

In all cases that I am aware of a person may use force to defend themselves if that force is the only means available. In some states a person is required to first attempt to flee and seek safety if possible before using force. Other states have “stand your ground” laws that do not require the person to attempt to flee and allow the use of force necessary for defense.

Some states have a “felling felon” rule that allows a fleeing felon to be stopped with deadly force. In Tennessee v. Garner (1985) the Supreme Court ruled that police cannot use deadly force to stop a fleeing felon unless that felon poses immediate danger to the officer or to others. The court ruled that is an unlawful seizure. In an odd twist, some states allow citizens to use deadly force to stop a fleeing felon even if the felon does not pose an immediate threat. Citizens have more leeway than the police. However, there may be more restrictions on a citizen such as knowing absolutely that a felony has occurred and that the person is the felon, while police may use deadly force to stop someone suspected of a felon if they pose an immediate threat.

Some states that a “castle doctrine” that says that a person can use deadly force against anybody who unlawfully enters their residence (or business or vehicle). The concept is that in such a circumstance the person has the presumption of imminent peril of death.

Of course that is just criminal law. Civil liability can be a whole other issue.

Oklahoma has the castle rule (21-1289.25), so it is unlikely that the resident in this case will face any criminal or civil problems:

Quote:
“A person…is presumed to have held a reasonable fear of imminent peril of death or great bodily harm …when using defensive force that is intended or likely to cause death…to another if the person against whom the defensive force was used…had unlawfully and forcibly entered, a…residence; and the person who uses defensive force knew or had reason to believe that an unlawful and forcible entry or unlawful and forcible act was occurring or had occurred.”
It also covers civil liability:

Quote:
“A person who uses force, as permitted pursuant to the provisions of subsections B and D of this section, is justified in using such force and is immune from criminal prosecution and civil action for the use of such force.”
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Old 30th March 2017, 08:43 PM   #360
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Armed usually means with a loaded gun. None of the three had a gun. That tells you they were not there to kill. The ski masks were likely donned to stop ID on area CCTV camera.

I agree it can take a split second, that is why the law needs to be very clear on this. I am sure we can all think of an occasion when we could have happily caused someone a painful injury, and thank goodness you didn't.
No, though it might in GB..... Armed means carrying anything that might be used as a weapon and is clearly dangerous. A screwdriver is quite effective for murdering/harming badly a person, so are coshes, so are razor blades. Stuffed bunnies, not so much.
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