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4th September 2010, 01:23 PM | #281 |
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Personally, I find looking at alternative Lockerbie CTs to be quite instructive. It's an unusual situation, where the Official Version is itself a complete stitch-up, and we don't actually know what happened. Therefore, anyone with a theory is in principle worth listening to.
When Charles started giving out oblique hints that he had a complete thesis worked out about what actually happened, I was initially interested. When he revealed that it involved sabotaging the actual luggage container 18 hours before the plane took off, a second bomb actually planted and triggered by the CIA, and the assumption that virtually every piece of relevant evidence found on the ground was fabricated, I kind of lost the will to live on this one. Nevertheless, one can often learn something even from batsqueak crazy CTs like Charles's. Anyone who has looked into this complex incident may have picked up some relevant fact that has escaped me, at least, or had an idea that isn't entirely crazy and might even be on the money. For example, if the story about McKee's suitcase being found and tampered with by the CIA at an early stage is true, and it could well be, then Charles's idea that it had a built-in transponder may not be completely off the mark. In addition, I really wish he would give his source for this thing about first-class luggage, because I want to know where it came from even though I think it's wrong. But for the rest - it's Malcolm Kirkman all over again. There are so many glaring, obvious, killer flaws in his thinking you just want to see if you can persuade him to accept even one of them by reasoned argument. Probably not, but it's fun trying. And then Sabretooth found a CT which is completely new to me, this Smith shotgun thing. Now that's how to do it, Charles. Nearly 400 pages in pdf, full of technical detail, meticulously presented, and looking exactly like an official Air Accident Report. Still barking, but about a million points for style and effort. Rolfe. |
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4th September 2010, 01:40 PM | #282 |
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By the way, look at this from that Smith pdf - pages 119 and 120.
Originally Posted by John Barry Smith
Is this guy Charles's literate twin? At least he has the decency to quote the typos he thinks are so significant, and explain why he thinks so. It's a step up from rudely telling people to read the whole thing and look for a significant typo! Rolfe. |
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4th September 2010, 05:48 PM | #283 |
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Jings!
Definitely a superior class of crazy. Spitfires's "Lurkers" argument is always valid of course. I've used it myself in other fields. But there can be obsession on both sides of a debate. I just worry that people get so sucked into dealing with extreme entrenched viewpoints (in whatever area), that they either waste huge swathes of time they might have spent on having a life, or worse, they may be sucked ino the silly swamp themselves. |
5th September 2010, 04:57 AM | #284 |
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What, Smith? Definitely! I had to scan quite a bit before I realised it was a CT with superior production values. I doubt if Sabretooth realised he was linking to a CT document, as it looks so much like an official report. Well, you can waste huge swathes of time doing a lot of things. Watching soap operas, playing computer games, jogging, gardening, knitting, doing crossword puzzles, reading detective novels, whatever. I just wasted an entire fortnight watching opera in Germany. Whatever floats your boat, really. Rolfe. |
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5th September 2010, 09:10 AM | #285 |
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Originally Posted by Rolfe
Honest mistake. |
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5th September 2010, 03:58 PM | #286 |
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Blood and Typewriters. He'd far rather a nice little murder.
Quote:
No, Argument ad Googleum is popular with 911 nuts also, especially the Jammy Dodger. |
6th September 2010, 03:10 AM | #287 |
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What he said. I can't disagree with that at all. However:
In principle, I also agree with that stance even more. But obviously there's the time issue, and also the value of curt dismissiveness and even ridicule where it's warranted. A nice mix is often best.
Quote:
I can also add, as Aku informed me (comments here), Charles was right that the Iranian Airbus is more properly referred to as IR655, with IA denoting Iraq Air. And as Rolfe notes, questions in this particular case are all inherently worthy of hearing out, due to the marked lack of consensus over the truth of Megrahi's - and indeed Libya's - actual guilt. The forum here has shown that to be the case. With regard to Mr. Norrie's ... (theory really isn't the right word, is it?) ... we haven't been graced with a clear explanation, so it can't be said to have gotten a hearing in full detail. Nonetheless, it's clear there's nothing down that road. |
6th September 2010, 04:29 AM | #288 |
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Are you sure? I thought the interference with McKee's suitcase was one of the things the SCCRC specifically ruled out in its report. Not that I believe that proves it didn't happen, but it leaves it a bit up in the air. If you can point to some primary evidence that it was acknowledged, that would be very interesting. Charles may have hit on something there. I always wondered why someone would cut a hole in the side of a suitcase to get at the contents, rather than forcing the lock. The latter would give far better access. It's also a reasonable question as to how the CIA found it so quickly. The crash happened on the winter solstice, and there's only about six hours of decent daylight even in good weather. In low cloud and rain, it's a lot worse. These hills are daunting for people not familiar with the area. And the CIA must have had far fewer people available than the official search. It took the official search, with large numbers of people, two or three weeks to cover the area systematically. How did the CIA find that suitcase so quickly? Maybe it did have a transponder in it, incorporated into the side of the case, and that's why the hole was cut in it - to remove the transponder. (I questioned whether such an item would be permitted in an aircraft, but I don't actually know the answer to this.) However, there's no reason to suspect there was anything more to this than the CIA being anxious to locate and remove anything sensitive McKee might have been carrying in his luggage. It doesn't imply anything was planted. And as for using McKee's case to pinpoint the location of AVE4041 - not only is that ridiculous, given the height that stuff fell from, the wind speeds, and the fact that the luggage container came apart and was found in several locations, Charles isn't even sure it was that container that was sabotaged, or how he or anyone else knows McKee's suitcase would have been in that particular container in the first place. Ah, that's helpful. As I said, when I first typed that designation I checked it on Wikipedia, which at that time had the flight designated IA655. I note this has since been changed, but someone needs to fix the German version too, because that still has the IA designation. I'll make sure to get it right in future. If that's the result of 20 years of study and obsessing about the case, I'm underwhelmed. Particularly as regards Charles's scornful assertions that others haven't done their basic reading. I had hoped that he might have something to contribute, even if his detailed thesis wasn't convincing, but it seems not. Recourse to insults instead of argument never augurs well, and if he can't figure out how to use the quote function, or what PM is, or even the difference between a blog and a forum, then I have to revise my estimate of his intelligence also. Rolfe. |
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6th September 2010, 01:23 PM | #289 |
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Sorry, still half-busy today, but at least I'm back in town now and on the computer. That's from a few things I read but didn't cite
one I had pulled out but didn't get the day
Quote:
Quote:
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6th September 2010, 03:04 PM | #290 |
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So where did I read more recently that nobody had interfered with any of the suitcases or cut any holes in them or anything....?
Rolfe. |
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6th September 2010, 05:36 PM | #291 |
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Don't know.
While I was digging throug trial transcripts though..
Originally Posted by Zeist Trial , Thomas Hayes evidence Day 16
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6th September 2010, 06:04 PM | #292 |
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Rolfe. |
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7th September 2010, 01:48 AM | #293 |
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Hell if I know.
Ambrosia, again, sweet to have you back. That is quite an interesting passage I hadn't seen yet. Clothes replaced (Who knows?) and case markings removed (select proprietary company?), but the passenger name, being McKee, was kept the same. It's odd, but still feels like random CIA procedures type of weird. Makes it interesting, perhaps relevant, likely not, not resolvable either way. What do you think? |
7th September 2010, 03:33 AM | #294 |
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Personally, I think it's a red herring. McKee was carrying something they seriously didn't want to fall into the hands of the searchers, who after all included local mountain rescue teams and farmers as well as police and army personnel. They managed to get hold of his case (transponder? just luck and throwing their weight about a bit?) and maybe over-reacted a bit and/or didn't do a very neat job in the heightened adrenaline of the moment?
Johnston found out about it and broadcast it, and the same adrenaline high sent the cops after him, but when everybody had calmed down a bit they realised the best course of action was to play it as low-key as possible. Doesn't necessarily have anything to do with anybody planting anything. I think if anything was planted, it was Thurman pretty much single-handed at that point, if my suspicion that he was the CIA's little pet operative within the FBI is anywhere close to right. Rolfe. |
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7th September 2010, 05:07 AM | #295 |
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I don't know what to make of it to be honest.
One thing that has always bugged me about the case with a hole in it, is why on earth did they go to all the bother of putting it back? McKee is a US intellingence agent carrying sensitive information, no problem there. The US get people on the ground at Lockerbie asap to retrieve this info as well as any other info that was being carried by the other 3 or so agents aboard the flight, makes sense to me. They find the McKee case either by luck or by transponder, why then do they not substitute a dummy case, or simply keep the case entirely, why bother to return it at all? |
7th September 2010, 06:07 AM | #296 |
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Somebody might miss it, or even its positioning might turn out to be important for determining what happened to the flight?
Rolfe. |
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7th September 2010, 11:48 AM | #297 |
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[quote=Ambrosia;6306021]
McKee is a US intellingence agent carrying sensitive information, no problem there. The US get people on the ground at Lockerbie asap to retrieve this info as well as any other info that was being carried by the other 3 or so agents aboard the flight, makes sense to me. QUOTE] Sensitive information or items?. If McKee was carrying senstive information would this not probably be in the form of documentation/computer discs etc? Why put this in a suitcase that is out of his sight from check in to arrival and not in a briefcase or holdall that would remain with him at all times as carry on. If sensitive items why not use diplomatic baggage? Unless items were not officially meant to be in McKees possession. I did read somewhere that the hole cut in the suitcase was to remove a secondary security lock that incorporated some kind of anti tamper device that would destroy the contents if activated. May have been in an article Jim Swire wrote. David |
7th September 2010, 12:13 PM | #298 |
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Now I think more about it then perhaps if all the other debris was recovered and this case was missing it would draw attention, if a dummy case showed no signs of explosives, it would draw undue attention too. Not sure how many plane crashes of this type have ever had all or very close to all of the debris recovered though.
Well there's the line that McKee was flying back to the US somewhat unannouced with info that exposed some intelligence shenanigans of some kind (it's the basis for a theory that this was why the US allowed the plane to be destroyed) - there is evidence to suggest this might have been the reason for McKee returning. So you can infer that the US wanted to mop up any and all info that McKee might have been carrying. Tho this could well have been the case even if the trip back was planned, that US intel was just being thorough. You'd also think that very sensitive info would never leave an agents sight so to speak, as you point out, and would be taken on as carry on luggage and not abandoned in the cargo hold. We can all speculate all day as to the reasons for cutting holes in his case, but that's one of the things that noone will ever get an answer to. |
7th September 2010, 12:19 PM | #299 |
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I don't suppose we will. I don't think it follows that this episode has anything to do with the actual crash though. Mounting a security operation to retrieve a dead CIA officer's luggage is a fairly long way from faking and planting evidence.
By the way, http://lockerbiecase.blogspot.com/20...60870601723574 http://lockerbiecase.blogspot.com/20...14850300134616 Silly us, it's all about how many hits a certain search term turns up on Google. Rolfe. |
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11th September 2010, 02:14 AM | #300 |
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Bump for Charles, who is declaring elsewhere that there have been no messages in this thread since he was suspended.
ETA: I hope he hasn't done a "suicide by mod". On Prof. Black's blog, after slagging off the JREF again, he said he'd been as rude as he could to Lisa. This isn't going well.... Rolfe. |
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11th September 2010, 07:08 AM | #301 |
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It hasn't ended well for Charles. http://www.internationalskeptics.com...d.php?t=185291
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11th September 2010, 07:10 AM | #302 |
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11th September 2010, 07:47 AM | #303 |
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The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts.Bertrand Russell Zooterkin is correct Darat Nerd! Hokulele Join the JREF Folders ! Team 13232 Ezekiel 23:20 |
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11th September 2010, 01:00 PM | #304 |
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Charles has just had a melt-down on Robert Black's blog, resulting in the good professor declaring that if he ever finds another post from him on his blog he'll delete it.
He also declared he didn't intend to suicide by mod here, and blamed me both for dragging him here and getting him banned. Considering he joined of his own free will to promote his theory, and I only started this thread to stop him derailing a different one, and that I begged him to behave several times for fear he was heading for a ban, it's all a bit rich. Anyone with a taste for car crashes can follow the events starting about here. (You'll have to follow it on to page 2 of the comments.) I note Charles has remarked that he can always come back here by registering under a different name. When I explained to him that sock puppets weren't permitted, he accused me of being a sock puppet of a CIA agent! This is actually a bit surreal. On one hand we have Charles, maybe not a typical twoofer (he seems to be over 60, and to have lost a brother in a terrorist attack), but very typical tactics - crackpot theory based entirely on his imagination, flatly contradicted by a number of easily-verifiable facts, and he's completely deaf to any counter-arguments. Uses rudeness and name-calling to deflect rational questioning. And then there's Bunntamas, in the blue corner. Also espouses a very unlikely explanation, also has bugger-all in the way of evidence for his point of view, and also completely deaf to counter-arguments. He's actually less prepared to address the evidence and facts and reason than Charles is, and is also rather prone to name-calling and shouting. Except - Bunntamas is a proponent of the Official Version. Rolfe. |
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11th September 2010, 05:35 PM | #305 |
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(I've always wanted to use that one ) His failure to use the quote function would be a dead giveaway. That's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. Everyone knows you're a sock puppet of an MI-6 agent. To expand on something you wrote up-thread, if we could figure out a way to bring the two of them together in a slow, controlled manner, we might be able to solve the world's energy crisis. |
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12th September 2010, 07:55 AM | #306 |
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I wonder if Charles is also a 9/11 twoofer? There's a certain horrid similarity between his assertions that the CIA blew up PA103, and many of the foam-flecked rants in the 9/11 section. Rolfe. |
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12th September 2010, 09:01 AM | #307 |
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