IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Conspiracies and Conspiracy Theories
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags Abdelbaset Ali al-Megrahi , John Wyatt , Lockerbie bombing , Muammar al-Gaddafi , Pan Am 103

Reply
Old 20th February 2011, 08:41 PM   #201
Bunntamas
Banned
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 310
Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
Given his clear dishonesty in the ADE 651 issue, my conclusion is that he faked the Lockerbie tests. Bunntamas was right, though I think for all the wrong reasons. I think he knew or thought that the defence were hoping none of the timer circuit board would survive, and somehow fiddled the methodology or the data to get that to happen.

I don't suppose he had any notion that announcing the entire suitcase was obliterated was inconsistent with the rest of the evidence found. Too bad. Busted.

Rolfe.
Wow. "Bunntamas was right", with a backhanded slap of "for all the wrong reasons". Thanks Rolfe. More of your true (bullying) colors shine brightly as ever.
Care to explain "all the wrong reasons"?, particularly in light of current events / slease / Libyan coersion of British and henceforth Sottish governments / MURDERS OF INNOCENTS /anything else you want to throw into the hopper that Libyans wouldn't do / pay for via their defense to sleaze like Wyatt to get what they want? I dare not slip off the derail path (lest you report me again) to mention Libyan government shootings of innocent protesters from helicopters..... But....THINK about who you have been defending for so long. Megrahi was, and has been aligned deeply with the Gadaffi regime (why else would they fight so hard to get him released? NO, No mid-level, just buying "parts" to circumvent sanctions guy there. And if you do believe he was that, I have some ocean front property in Arizona to sell you).
LOOK at what is happening now as a result of that regime. And tell me, still you think he is innocent, based on the fact that that regime would stop at nothing to murder innocent people, of their own, much less Americans, whom in 1988 were a huge threat to Libya ?????? OMG. If you can say you still defend Megrahi after looking at what is finally taking place, and what is coming forward about the Libyan government, in which Megrahi was an integral player, I have nothing more to say, because ingnorance is not bliss, but a bloody stain on humanity, where defenders of these murderous animals are concerned.

Birds of a feather and all that...I'm gathering that you and CL are flying at (in your defense of members of) the same level as the (now fleeing) Libyan regime and their aligned tribes, including Megrahi, Senussi (sorry CL, I remember you don't know who he is - ahem http://www.usasurvival.org/pa103sundaytimes.html) and their actions over the past 40 years. Good to see how it all FINALLY FALLS into place.

Last edited by Bunntamas; 20th February 2011 at 09:33 PM.
Bunntamas is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st February 2011, 12:00 AM   #202
Caustic Logic
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 4,494
Oh, zing.

Caustic Logic is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st February 2011, 02:20 AM   #203
Rolfe
Adult human female
 
Rolfe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: NT 150 511
Posts: 50,594
Honestly, Bunntamas, there is more than one bunch of evil murdering bastards in the world you know. More's the pity, but there it is.

Simply pointing out that the Gadaffi regime is in that category does not automatically prove it was responsible for any atrocity you care to list. Let alone that Megrahi (of all people, against whom there as never any reliable personal evidence) had anything to do with it.

Rolfe.
__________________
"The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.

Last edited by Rolfe; 21st February 2011 at 02:22 AM.
Rolfe is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st February 2011, 08:03 PM   #204
Bunntamas
Banned
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 310
Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
Honestly, Bunntamas, there is more than one bunch of evil murdering bastards in the world you know. More's the pity, but there it is.
Indeed, there it is. Megrahi being included in those bunch of evil murdering bastards.

Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
Simply pointing out that the Gadaffi regime is in that category does not automatically prove it was responsible for any atrocity you care to list. Let alone that Megrahi (of all people, against whom there as never any reliable personal evidence) had anything to do with it.
What? Not another wall of text from the EPIC ROLFE???? How surprising. (NOT) When she is beaten she has no walls of text, but when she "thinks" she has (unsupported) evidence to banter about with her sad little flunkies; CL, Architect, Buncrana, etc.... she has walls of text to post. But not now. NOT now that the Libyan government are fleeiing from all of the atrocities that included Megrahi (as a member of that regime).....Hmmmmm.....

Megrahi, by association and inclusion with the Gaddafi Libyan regime and close family tribes associated Gaddaffi and Sennusi????

Per above, I said, birds of a feather....and if you so care to respond to my questions as to why the (murdering of innocents) Gaddafi regime would so vehemently choose to focus on Megrahi's release, that would be interesting as well.
Until you can correlate your "evidence" with this, I'm still looking at you and others like you (e.g. Megrahi)
Side note: - does it not quake your bones to know that you are aligned with a convicted muderer who is aligned so closely with Gaddaffi's tribe ????
Does it not strike you as merely interesting tha Gaddaffi would fight so for one person, if it were not for political reasons????? If not, I must say, I have some question about your sociopathic stability-

So sad that you are such pawns, so blinded and are unable see what has happened in Libyan / UK and Scottish politics for so many years. And that after so many years, the Scots are still stuck in the you know what sucking of the th UK so as to release a murderer on the grounds of a pathetic "compassinate" release.

It is reprted that Gaddafi has fled Libya. My only regret is that his departure from Libya is not in a coffin, alonside Megrhai, Fimah, Sennusi, and all of the others who planned, carried out and supportd the bombing of Pan Am 103 (including the CT'ers) .

~b
PS did you happen to see the landing of Libyan fighter jets and helicopters in Malta and Libyan military requesting asylum? Too bad Megrahi didn't do the same, but instead chose to plant the bomb destined for PA103.
AHHHHH.... It all comes full cirlce now. Lord knows what will be revealed from those now revolting.
Hang on to your seats CT'ers. This will certainly be interesting.

Last edited by Bunntamas; 21st February 2011 at 08:50 PM.
Bunntamas is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd February 2011, 02:40 AM   #205
Rolfe
Adult human female
 
Rolfe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: NT 150 511
Posts: 50,594
Bunntamas, when I post what you call "walls of text" you don't read it anyway. I've explained the evidence and how there, like, isn't any that Megrahi had anything to do with the Lockerbie bomb. I'm not posting it again here, go back and read it if you like.

I'm sure there is a name for this logical fallacy.
  1. Whoever was behing the Lockerbie bombing is an evil murdering bastard. [Correct]
  2. Gadaffi is an evil murdering bastard. [Correct]
  3. Therefore Gadaffi was behind the Lockerbie bombing. [Non sequitur, logic fail]
Was Megrahi himself an evil murdering bastard in some other context? Unknown, because there is no evidence. Plenty such evidence against other people associated with the Gadaffi regime, but none against Megrahi personally. The most there is, is that he knew people who were evil murdering bastards. Do evil murdering bastards only know other evil murdering bastards? I doubt it.

You know, I hope he was an evil murdering bastard. It's the classic get-out from law enforcement in Scotland, of course. Oh well, even if he didn't bomb that plane, don't shed any tears for him because he was an evil murdering bastard anyway.

That is such a betrayal of all the principles of justice I don't know where to start. OK, never mind actually solving any crime, just find someone else you think probably did a similar crime and fit them up for it, that'll do. No, PC McPlod, it won't.

But still. If Megrahi's own story is true, he went to Malta that day for completely innocent purposes. The only dubious activities he was involved in were related to smuggling aircraft parts and supplies past the UN sanctions. If that's true, we banged up a completely innocent man in jail for over ten years.

So I hope it's not true. Still doesn't help the problem of the real Lockerbie bombers still running free and laughing their heads off at all this Megrahi nonsense, or the deep cancer at the heart of the criminal justice system, but at least it would be possible to feel less bad about actually jailing the wrong man.

Rolfe.
__________________
"The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.
Rolfe is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd February 2011, 06:31 AM   #206
Caustic Logic
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 4,494
Quote:
Per above, I said, birds of a feather....and if you so care to respond to my questions as to why the (murdering of innocents) Gaddafi regime would so vehemently choose to focus on Megrahi's release, that would be interesting as well.
You read too much into feathers, Bunntamas.

The answer you are looking for is that Megrahi is IN FACT a terrorist mass murderer, and the Gaddafi regime was so intent to get him out because they are a terrorist regime, and love getting any and all terrorists out of jail, or help them in any way, in their insatiable bloodlust for the blood of infidels.

If I or anyone else answered the question any other way, you'd ignore it. Where do you keep all the things you read and just discard, anyway? Hollow legs and a hefty wagon?
Caustic Logic is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd February 2011, 06:54 AM   #207
Rolfe
Adult human female
 
Rolfe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: NT 150 511
Posts: 50,594
Originally Posted by Bunntamas View Post
Side note: - does it not quake your bones to know that you are aligned with a convicted muderer who is aligned so closely with Gaddaffi's tribe ????

I wish you'd get your head straight.

MEGRAHI WAS FRAMED FOR THE LOCKERBIE BOMBING BY THE CIA AND THE US DoJ.

If you dispute that, argue it on the facts, not on screeds of disjointed and baseless innuendo.

What I'm aligned with is the attempt to get the Scottish criminal justice system to face up to the fact that it colluded with US interests to frame someone who had no connection to the crime. I officially DO NOT CARE whether the man who was framed was pure as the driven snow or had a past that would shock Ivan the Terrible. And I have told you this on innumerable occasions in the past. The issue is the perversion of justice evident in the Lockerbie investigation and the Zeist trial.

The corollary to that, of course, is that the actual evil murdering bastards who blew up that plane were never caught and never punished and are doubtless laughing their evil heads off about all this fuss over "the Lockerbie bomber". Does it not quake your bones to know that the terrorists who killed 270 people were allowed to run free by the US authorities?

If you think it's sufficient to declare, "Gadaffi was and is an evil murdering bastard, end of argument," then I've got news for you. Nobody has ever been under any illusions about Gadaffi, this week or earlier.

Originally Posted by Bunntamas View Post
It is reprted that Gaddafi has fled Libya. My only regret is that his departure from Libya is not in a coffin, alonside Megrhai, Fimah, Sennusi, and all of the others who planned, carried out and supportd the bombing of Pan Am 103 (including the CT'ers) .

I really hope we're not supposed to parse that as expressing a hope that those members you named above in your post as CTers (me, Caustic Logic, Architect and Buncrana) were in coffins. I'm not sure that's entirely in accord with the MA, you know.

I'm not so sure Gadaffi has left Libya. Even though it was apparently raining in the footage supposedly of him still in Libya, we're being told that rain isn't that uncommon on the southern Mediterranean coast in February.

If he's still there, there's hope for a Ceausescu moment yet. With any luck.

Rolfe.
__________________
"The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.

Last edited by Rolfe; 22nd February 2011 at 07:35 AM.
Rolfe is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd February 2011, 10:36 AM   #208
Rolfe
Adult human female
 
Rolfe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: NT 150 511
Posts: 50,594
I just noticed something. Bunntamas appears to be declaring that Fhimah "planned, carried out and supported the bombing of Pan Am 103".

Fhimah was acquitted in court. NOT GUILTY. INNOCENT.

Strange that someone who is so singlemindedly wedded to the court's (irrational) verdict in the case of Megrahi should blithely ignore that same court's verdict in the case of Fhimah. I think the double standards and blinkered outlook are showing here.

Rolfe.
__________________
"The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.
Rolfe is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd February 2011, 12:53 PM   #209
Buncrana
Critical Thinker
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 458
It seems to me that all those who are so ardently opposed to any possibility that Megrahi was wrongfully convicted, and are fervently casting wild and spurious reasoning why he should be cast as the villain despite what any facts or evidence may suggest, are relying on a belief of pretence that there are no questions about his guilt worthy of discussion, and that there need not be any inquiry or appeal under any circumstances.

Some are apparently capable of absorbing, and upholding, a belief no matter how absurd or questionable these beliefs may be shown to be. No matter how much they may be undermined by evidence and rational argument to its contrary, the alternative is somehow simply too unpalatable to bear. Can this therefore remain and be regarded as a sincerely held belief when there is no attempt to support its own core assertions, except through invalid and contradictory argument or unsupported generalizations and insinuation?

Given the unshakable and vocal confidence in the original conviction put forth, would they not welcome the conclusion of the appeal process or any possible inquiry in the Zeist court (as was recommended by the SCCRC), as an opportunity to demonstrate the validity and soundness of their position, while simultaneously demolishing their adversaries beliefs that a wrongful conviction has occurred?

Surely, at least, each of us has a duty to show the other any possible mistakes given the gravity of these circumstances? I would wholeheartedly welcome such as it would put my fears to rest about the Scottish justice system being corrupted and restate the integrity of UK and US prosecutors. We have reasoned, we have pleaded for such.

But no, for some apparently not.

The belief of 'guilt' should remain unchallenged and unquestioned. And to those who are of doubt, despite all your calls to be heard and the legitimate concerns raised, you have no cause we need answer. Which is a strange position to espouse given it sounds just like the kind of philosophy a certain despot dictator mentioned above would fully subscribe to.

Last edited by Buncrana; 22nd February 2011 at 12:56 PM.
Buncrana is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd February 2011, 09:59 PM   #210
Bunntamas
Banned
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 310
More Yaaawwns in reply to the above.

On another note:

Quotes from the Robert Black Blog...

From Robert Black himself:

Quote:
...it’s also crossed my mind that a prisoner will come forward who says ‘Megrahi confessed to me' ...
Comment on the above
Quote:
...if only. Alas I fear it will be as Robert predicts. "Papers" will be found "proving" Libya and Megrahi guilty.
And there you have it. The tides of Tripoli are certainly turning, and it seems the tides are turning on and by the CTers as well. Hang on to your hats folks! No doubt Megrahi's admissions will come forth from his former fellow prison inmates who gleaned his friendship at the "advantages" of Megrahi's posh scottish prison accoutrements....funded by the Libyan government (not to mention Megrahi's family's living environment in Scotland, also funded by the Libyan government)...while Libyan citizens starved and were murdered at the hands of the Megrahi and Gaddafi tribes.

Last edited by Bunntamas; 22nd February 2011 at 10:14 PM.
Bunntamas is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd February 2011, 03:07 AM   #211
Rolfe
Adult human female
 
Rolfe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: NT 150 511
Posts: 50,594
I think some of the speculation that has been going on on Robert Black's blog is a bit silly, I agree. If anyone was going to fake up a cell-mate confession (as was done with Sion Jenkins), they'd have done it long ago.

Rolfe.
__________________
"The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.
Rolfe is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd February 2011, 05:30 AM   #212
Caustic Logic
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 4,494
Tough ties in Tripoli, no doubt. Sorry, I've been quite busy with some work, not keeping up with discussions or news.

Those intel sources who speak to journalists, post-conviction, about their sooper seekrit evidence the Sunday Times can't reveal, that Bunntamas loves as evidence. That kind of silliness people should feel burned for trusting in the past. That makes me think the speculations at the Case blog and from Bunny above might be prophetic.

Or not.

Hey, maybe they should go ask if Terri Holland heard Megrahi confess to the bombing. "More proof! We always seem to need more, for some reason! Like we're still trying hard to convince ourselves!"

Buncrana, quite well put. A random under-used smiley for you.

Oh, and BTW, our man Giaka fits the bill of a jail-house snitch in a number of ways, while clearly being a different kind of dubious-at-best evidence. Bunntamas, this guy says he heard Megrahi muse about the 1986 airliner bombing report for Mr. Senoussi, saying "don't rush things." Juicy! Same guy says he (Giaka) wrote the report, or was asked to, but had another guy do it, because Giaka hated terrorism. And he saw TNT in Fhimah's desk at the airport, and learned that it belonged to Megrahi. And he saw them both with a brown hard-shell Samsonite on Dec 20 on Malta.

Bunntamas: I think we'd all be curious what you thought about Giaka, his evidence, and his handling by those nasty Zeist judges.

Last edited by Caustic Logic; 23rd February 2011 at 05:35 AM.
Caustic Logic is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd February 2011, 06:42 AM   #213
Rolfe
Adult human female
 
Rolfe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: NT 150 511
Posts: 50,594
I think the whole Libya situation is more important than "Lockerbie Truth" right now. The main priority is they should get rid of that bastard Gadaffi (a lynching would be good....) and get some control over their own country again. It's going to be nasty whichever way you slice it, particularly as a lot of the managers of this and that were foreign nationals who are well on their way to the nearest border or airport right now.

I've had a feeling for a while Gadaffi might be leaning on Megrahi more than a bit, preventing from revealing anything that might rock the boat with his new friends in the UK and US governments. Which makes me wonder what might come out if Megrahi survives long enough to come out the other end of this. But reports of his health are not encouraging.

No idea really. It's a spin ball, and we just have to wait and see where it goes. Getting a stable and liberal Libya is the main thing of course.

Rolfe.
__________________
"The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.
Rolfe is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd February 2011, 10:08 AM   #214
Stellafane
Village Idiot.
 
Stellafane's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 8,368
I apologize if this has already been factored into the discussion, but does this have any relevance?
__________________
"Stellafane! My old partner in crime!" - Kelly J
Stellafane is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd February 2011, 10:25 AM   #215
Guybrush Threepwood
Trainee Pirate
 
Guybrush Threepwood's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: An Uaimh
Posts: 3,664
Originally Posted by Stellafane View Post
I apologize if this has already been factored into the discussion, but does this have any relevance?
Ooh! I think you've just made Buntamas' year

Personally, I'd like to see actual evidence that Gadhaffi ordered it, rather than an ex-foreign minister preparing the ground for his Swedish asylum claim with a nice juicy story.

If good documentary evidence turns up in Libya after Gadhaffi's gone implicating Megrahi, that would be extremely interesting.
Guybrush Threepwood is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd February 2011, 10:50 AM   #216
Rolfe
Adult human female
 
Rolfe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: NT 150 511
Posts: 50,594


This is all getting a bit off-topic for the thread, but since we seem to have a conclusion that both Longtabber and Wyatt are deeply untrustworthy the topic is a bit dead otherwise.

Whoever it was emailed Prof Black predicting that one seems to have been a bit psychic. Of course, no matter how baseless, unsourced or downright impossible any claim that Megrahi did it appears, Bunntamas will regard it as holy writ. Personally, I'm underwhelmed.

Rolfe.
__________________
"The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.
Rolfe is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th February 2011, 02:54 AM   #217
Caustic Logic
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 4,494
Did I call it or what? (the above cryptic comment seconded the prediction there and by Bunny). Next day was a little surprising, but come to think of it, it makes total sense.

Sorry I've been out. This amazing rush of comment-worthy news happened to coincide with some paying work, rush work, that I couldn't turn down. It's almost done now, but has been taking almost every waking hour I have, and a few of the others.

I realized jailhouse snitch is a more apt parallel for Giaka than I realized, with Libya made into almost a prison by factors internal and external. Early release for him meant making up a lot of "admissions," smoking gun clues he was allowed to see and report. I'm sure Bunntamas, like Marquise and many others, still believes and cherishes each of his lies. But unlike the former head of the FBI's "investigation," she seems embarrassed to come out and admit thhat she too believes his tales to this very day.

Mr. Abdel-Jalil here may be little different. This is less like early release from prison, and more, as the ambassadors sloughing off, people abandoning a sinking ship. It's a bad sign for the Col. In that metaphor, to float long enough to reach a western shore, one needs a flotation device, preferably filled with lots of hot air.

Last edited by Caustic Logic; 24th February 2011 at 02:57 AM.
Caustic Logic is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd March 2011, 12:58 PM   #218
Ambrosia
Good of the Fods
 
Ambrosia's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 2,675
Am replying in a more appropriate thread.

Originally Posted by little grey rabbit View Post
It also shows the plane immediately falling apart and parts shooting out in all directions.
No it doesn't.

The radar returns show the plane debris fanning out along the same trajectory as the plane was travelling in when it broke apart, and it shows debris spreading out in a direction that correllates with the wind direction.

It does not show bits being blown in all directions, there is none spreading out and flying back the way the plane had come for example.

fig C-14 in that report is timestamped 68566.9secs
(this is the numer of seconds elapsed after UTC 00:00)

fig C-23 in that report is timestamped 68816secs.

So those radar returns cover a time period of 249.1 seconds, or a little over 4 minutes.

Those radar returns show the path that pieces of debris large enough to be picked up by radar took as the plane broke apart mid flight over a time period of about 4 minutes.
Ambrosia is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd March 2011, 02:25 PM   #219
Rolfe
Adult human female
 
Rolfe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: NT 150 511
Posts: 50,594
When I started this thread it was specifically to discuss the suggestion that the bomb suitcase would have been completely obliterated by 450g of Semtex - which would of course have meant that the bits of brown Samsonite and its alleged contents were either a fake or a spectacular misinterpretation, probably of ordinary passenger luggage. However, rather than multiply threads eternally, maybe this is the place to discuss all theories that claim the plane was brought down by anything other than that 450 (ish) g Semtex in the Toshiba radio in the suitcase with the Maltese clothes.

All Little Grey Rabbit has said is, look at this radar anomaly recorded a few seconds before the explosion. Well, I've looked. The AAIB inspectors don't seem to know what it was, so I don't think I've got much chance of doing any better. We need to know what LGR thinks it was before we go any further. I'm not playing guessing games.

I suspect this is another example (Charles being the previous one) of an approach that says the entire AAIB report was a huge lie, concealing something entirely different that happened to that plane. So 99% of the report is just fabrication. But in the middle of it all, the inspectors left a big clue right there in plain sight, revealing what actually happened. And that part of the report is completely true, without question.

This isn't logic as we know it, Jim.

Rolfe.
__________________
"The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.
Rolfe is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd March 2011, 03:50 PM   #220
Caustic Logic
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 4,494
I've looked at radar a bit before and learned that ... anomalies happen. Particularly dense cloud formations, a flock of birds, etc. can show up as a return that, in time and space, get correlated with another object. Radar is quite imprecise for telling things like just how a plane broke up.

True that the Charles approach to the AAIB report, where a semantics-based clue rules out the rest is just about as illogical as it gets. You need to look at all the evidence and find what explains the most, not the least, of the facts. Sometiimes there are a few that just don't fit, and those become the suspect "facts." It's a bad sign when you and your buddy "well, they said there was no second IED, but didn't say there wasn't a professional bomb" are squaring down for battle against all other facts of the case.
Caustic Logic is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd March 2011, 04:28 PM   #221
Rolfe
Adult human female
 
Rolfe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: NT 150 511
Posts: 50,594
That's the trouble with all these theories. It was a bigger bomb somewhere else. It was a missile. It was mechanical failure. It was illegally-transported military ordnance blowing up. Where did the evidence that the investigation relied on come from in that case, and what happened to the actual evidence the "real" event must have left behind?

The first bit of the luggage container was brought in on Christmas Eve. They had identified the container and were getting an idea of the position and nature of the explosion within ten days. Everybody and his auntie was showing up with every bit of plane and luggage they could find. Apart from the souvenir-hunters that is, and who knows what they got away with.

If the luggage container in particular was fabricated and planted, just how was this figured out and accomplished in three days? And don't underestimate the value of that container as evidence of what happened. Who managed to spirit away all the evidence of an explosion in distant parts of the plane? Who managed to organise the bits of the actual plane to appear, once reassembled, as if there had been a blow-out from inside at exactly that part of the airframe where the container in question had been placed?

Honestly, it's ridiculous. I know Steven Raeburn's answer to this is always that the establishment can do anything, bribe anyone, fabricate anything it wants to. Plant an entire substitute 747 blown up the way they want it blown up while simultaneously spiriting away the actual plane that had the passengers on it?

Actually, I don't think it's quite that. I think the idea is that the plane would show something different if only it was honestly examined, but all the AAIB inspectors were bought and are lying, and the AAIB report is a complete fabrication.

Except for the bits that the particular theory requires to be correct, of course.

Well, that's going a bit off-topic for now. I suppose we have to wait for LGR to come and tell us what he thinks the radar blip actually is, and why a completely doctored and fabricated AAIB report would have left that bit in.

Rolfe.
__________________
"The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.
Rolfe is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th March 2011, 03:20 AM   #222
Rolfe
Adult human female
 
Rolfe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: NT 150 511
Posts: 50,594
Originally Posted by Ambrosia View Post
The radar returns show the plane debris fanning out along the same trajectory as the plane was travelling in when it broke apart, and it shows debris spreading out in a direction that correllates with the wind direction.

It does not show bits being blown in all directions, there is none spreading out and flying back the way the plane had come for example.

fig C-14 in that report is timestamped 68566.9secs
(this is the numer of seconds elapsed after UTC 00:00)

fig C-23 in that report is timestamped 68816secs.

So those radar returns cover a time period of 249.1 seconds, or a little over 4 minutes.

Those radar returns show the path that pieces of debris large enough to be picked up by radar took as the plane broke apart mid flight over a time period of about 4 minutes.

Oh, I see! This is getting silly when we ourselves are being expected to work out what LGR is hinting at before debunking it. He thinks those radar returns are the plane being blown to smithereens? No, LGR, that's the "debris trail" on the way to earth. It's suitcases and small stuff and, I'm afraid, bodies.

I thought it was obvious. I mean, it's not exactly a secret how big the main bits were that hit the ground.

http://www.esds.ac.uk/international/.../lockerbie.gif

The main tube of the fuselage landed almost intact in Rosebank Crescent, with passengers inside it still strapped to their seats. The wing section with engines all fell into Sherwood Crescent, and eyewitnesses saw it fall all of a piece before it was incinerated.

Of course the plane was coming apart as it fell 31,000 feet, the contents spilling out and bits coming adrift all over the place in a 90mph gale. But it wasn't "blown in all directions" at the moment of the explosion.

Rolfe.
__________________
"The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.
Rolfe is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th March 2011, 04:22 AM   #223
little grey rabbit
Banned
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 3,164
Quote:
Oh, I see! This is getting silly when we ourselves are being expected to work out what LGR is hinting at before debunking it. He thinks those radar returns are the plane being blown to smithereens? No, LGR, that's the "debris trail" on the way to earth. It's suitcases and small stuff and, I'm afraid, bodies.
no it isn't. Read the report.
little grey rabbit is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th March 2011, 04:32 AM   #224
Caustic Logic
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 4,494
Originally Posted by little grey rabbit View Post
no it isn't. Read the report.
yeah, Rolfe, go work it out for yourself.

Ah, sort of amusing.

Incidentally, LGR, were you trying to drive at any particular thought here? No pressure for a firm answer, just a platform and a nudge.
Caustic Logic is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th March 2011, 04:34 AM   #225
little grey rabbit
Banned
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 3,164
Originally Posted by Caustic Logic View Post
yeah, Rolfe, go work it out for yourself.

Ah, sort of amusing.

Incidentally, LGR, were you trying to drive at any particular thought here? No pressure for a firm answer, just a platform and a nudge.
Just interested in the species of bird that fly around at 31 000 feet.
little grey rabbit is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th March 2011, 04:49 AM   #226
Guybrush Threepwood
Trainee Pirate
 
Guybrush Threepwood's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: An Uaimh
Posts: 3,664
Originally Posted by little grey rabbit View Post
Just interested in the species of bird that fly around at 31 000 feet.
I'm sure I've read a bunch of posts on this forum by a nutcase who claimed there was someone crouching in the moors north of Carlisle with a portable radar and a SAM missile*, but I can't seem to find it. I assume that's what you are circling around, so why not just come out with it and give us all a laugh.



*I know, department of redundancies department
Guybrush Threepwood is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th March 2011, 05:12 AM   #227
little grey rabbit
Banned
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 3,164
Originally Posted by Guybrush Threepwood View Post
I'm sure I've read a bunch of posts on this forum by a nutcase who claimed there was someone crouching in the moors north of Carlisle with a portable radar and a SAM missile*, but I can't seem to find it. I assume that's what you are circling around, so why not just come out with it and give us all a laugh.
I haven't the foggiest as to what brought down Pan Am. The radar returns seem to stretch credibility that it was half a kilogram of semtex.
little grey rabbit is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th March 2011, 05:25 AM   #228
Caustic Logic
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 4,494
Originally Posted by little grey rabbit View Post
The radar returns seem to stretch credibility that it was half a kilogram of semtex.
Possibly Stundie material. Classic in its small way.
Caustic Logic is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th March 2011, 05:38 AM   #229
Rolfe
Adult human female
 
Rolfe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: NT 150 511
Posts: 50,594
Originally Posted by Guybrush Threepwood View Post
I'm sure I've read a bunch of posts on this forum by a nutcase who claimed there was someone crouching in the moors north of Carlisle with a portable radar and a SAM missile*, but I can't seem to find it. I assume that's what you are circling around, so why not just come out with it and give us all a laugh.



*I know, department of redundancies department

It's this thread. http://www.internationalskeptics.com...d.php?t=184202

Actually, it occurs to me that he may have picked up on the radar anomaly as well as the "there was only one IED" thing.

Charles got banned for sending Lisa an abusive PM after he was suspended for a ton of MA breaches. I've been meaning to revive that thread because yet another killer reason why he's wrong occurred to me, and besides, we can abuse him is we like now he isn't a member any more.

Rolfe.
__________________
"The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.

Last edited by Rolfe; 24th March 2011 at 05:40 AM.
Rolfe is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th March 2011, 05:42 AM   #230
Rolfe
Adult human female
 
Rolfe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: NT 150 511
Posts: 50,594
Originally Posted by little grey rabbit View Post
no it isn't. Read the report.

Er, no. I read it a while ago and I'm not gagging to wade through it all again. If you have a point to make, make it. Otherwise, forget it.

Originally Posted by little grey rabbit View Post
Just interested in the species of bird that fly around at 31 000 feet.

I don't believe the report said it was birds. Or clouds. Just that they didn't know what it was.

Originally Posted by little grey rabbit View Post
I haven't the foggiest as to what brought down Pan Am. The radar returns seem to stretch credibility that it was half a kilogram of semtex.

Well, there you go then. Maybe you need to look at all the evidence saying it was half a kilo of Semtex, and see how easy it is to wave it away.

Rolfe.
__________________
"The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.
Rolfe is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th March 2011, 07:17 AM   #231
Ambrosia
Good of the Fods
 
Ambrosia's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 2,675
Originally Posted by little grey rabbit View Post
Just interested in the species of bird that fly around at 31 000 feet.
That's easy, passenger aircraft fly at about 31,000ft.

LGR the radar return sequence that you are looking at is spread over about 4 minutes. It tracks items of debris large enough to be picked up by radar as it falls to earth.

It stops tracking objects when they fall too low to be tracked.

So the large spread out final radar image return that we see is how the debris, looked to the radar just before it hits the ground.

You can do some simple maths to work out how fast items will hit terminal velocity, and how long it will take things to fall from ~31000ft to the ground. Terminal velocity varies depending on the shape, density and therefore air resistance of the object in question but a good ballpark guesstimate is something like 50m/s, there were lots of bits of debris and some of itwill fall a lot faster than others.

31000ft is about 9450m, items falling at 50m/s take a little over 3 minutes to hit the ground from that height.

Some of the final radar picture could be birds, I don't know, but it's pretty obvious that much of those radar returns are being generated from a height way below 31000ft.

As far as "read the report" this is the revelant bit from the aaib report re: radar returns.

Originally Posted by aaib report
Recorded radar information on the aircraft was available from 4 radar sites. Initial analysis consisted
of viewing the recorded information as it was shown to the controller on the radar screen from which
it was clear that the flight had progressed in a normal manner until secondary surveillance radar
(SSR) was lost.
The detailed analysis of the radar information concentrated on the break-up of the aircraft. The
Royal Signals and Radar Establishment(RSRE) corrected the radar returns for fixed errors and
converted the SSR returns to latitude and longitude so that an accurate time and position for the
aircraft could be determined. The last secondary return from the aircraft was recorded at
19.02:46.9hrs, identifying N739PA at Flight Level 310, and at the next radar return there is no SSR
data, only 4 primary returns. It was concluded that the aircraft was, by this time, no longer a single
return and, considering the approximately 1 nautical mile spread of returns across track, that items
had been ejected at high speed probably to both right and left of the aircraft.
Each rotation of the radar head thereafter showed the number ofreturns increasing, with those first
identified across track having slowed down very quickly and followed a track along the
prevailing wind line. The radar evidence then indicated that a further break-up of the aircraft had
occurred and formed a parallel wreckage trail to the north of the first. From the absence of any
returns travelling along track it was concluded that the main wreckage was travelling almost
vertically downwards for much of the time.
[ source ]

It's the debris trail being picked up by radar. At the start bits shoot out to the left and to the right of the aircraft. Most of the main wreckage falls almost vertically to earth and the wind scatters a lot of debis. There was a secondary break up mid fall and that caused two distinct debris trails.

I've read the report.

Last edited by Ambrosia; 24th March 2011 at 07:19 AM. Reason: typo
Ambrosia is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th March 2011, 07:36 AM   #232
Ambrosia
Good of the Fods
 
Ambrosia's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 2,675
Originally Posted by little grey rabbit View Post
I haven't the foggiest as to what brought down Pan Am.
An explosion in the cargo hold caused an explosive decompression of the aircraft.

i.e. the bomb blew a hole in the fuselage in a pressurised area of the plane. The air contained inside the aircraft rushed out of the hole and in doing so ripped the plane apart.

It's all detailed in that report you are telling us to read.
Ambrosia is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th March 2011, 08:43 AM   #233
Rolfe
Adult human female
 
Rolfe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: NT 150 511
Posts: 50,594
[Must resist temptation to play guessing games, must resist temptation to play guessing games....]

I think what LGR is talking about as regards the "bird at 31,000 feet" is the anomalous trace in the third-last "normal" paint. I don't know enough about radar to know if the object causing it was necessarily at 31,000 feet though.

Rolfe.
__________________
"The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.
Rolfe is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th March 2011, 03:18 PM   #234
little grey rabbit
Banned
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 3,164
Originally Posted by Ambrosia View Post
An explosion in the cargo hold caused an explosive decompression of the aircraft.

i.e. the bomb blew a hole in the fuselage in a pressurised area of the plane. The air contained inside the aircraft rushed out of the hole and in doing so ripped the plane apart.
As the world was to find out a few months later, explosive decompression won't rip a plane apart - or even stop it from landing safely.

Quote:
1989: Nine passengers were sucked out of the back of a plane and fell to their deaths in the Pacific Ocean when a 40 foot hole blew open in the fuselage of a United Airlines Boeing 747 flying 100 miles south of Hawaii. 27 other passengers were injured in the accident resulting from a cargo door separation. Months after the incident, passengers, crew and the Capt. started talking about a strange occurence. Apparently they all felt the presence of angels who helped to hold the plane in the air. Some describe looking out the window and seeing a hand holding up the wing.
explosive decompression and velocity stress (word?) might mean a smaller explosion is needed to rip a plane apart.
How much smaller is not something I can answer.
little grey rabbit is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th March 2011, 04:34 PM   #235
Rolfe
Adult human female
 
Rolfe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: NT 150 511
Posts: 50,594
Originally Posted by little grey rabbit View Post
As the world was to find out a few months later, explosive decompression won't doesn't invariably rip a plane apart - or even stop it from landing safely.

explosive decompression and velocity stress (word?) might mean a smaller explosion is needed to rip a plane apart.
How much smaller is not something I can answer.

FIFY.

How are you doing with explaining away all the evidence that says the explosion happened just the way the report says it did?

Rolfe.
__________________
"The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.
Rolfe is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th March 2011, 03:34 AM   #236
Ambrosia
Good of the Fods
 
Ambrosia's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 2,675
Originally Posted by little grey rabbit View Post
As the world was to find out a few months later, explosive decompression won't rip a plane apart - or even stop it from landing safely.
That was United Airlines flight 811. You know if you google the exact quote you copypasted you find some amusing sources.

United Airlines Flight 811

Here's a proper source for that accident. (please supply sources for the things you quote, it's rude not to) That decompression occured when the cargo door blew off as the plane was climbing to 23000 ft not long after taking off.

Explosive decompression depends on a large number of factors the biggest 3 being the size of the hole, the difference between the cabin pressure and the outside air pressure, and how strong the structure of the aircraft is in the area where the hole occurs.

There are accidents where the fuselage has had a hole torn in it and survived.

Aloha Airlines Flight 243 - 1988


Flight SV162 1980

There are also incidents where an explosive decompression has caused the loss of the plane.

BOACFlight 781 -1954 this was the first ever jet passenger aircraft and it blew apart midflight because of explosive decompression owing to a bad design.

Continental Flight 11 1962

US Military plane in 1970

Air India Flight 181 - 1985 Of the accidents listed this is the closest to the Lockerbie disaster in that it was a 747 at cruising altitude, the entire plane tore apart midflight, and the cause was a bomb leading to an explosive decompression.

There's an interesting wiki page listing notable decompression events on aircraft you've probably not looked at either.


Pan Am Flight 103 was brought down by an explosive decompression that happened because a bomb went off in the cargo hold and blew a hole in the plane.

As an aside, do you have any idea how big a bomb would need to be to "blow an entire plane into pieces" ? and if that had happened how much of the debris would you think would show obvious damage from such an explosion?
Ambrosia is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd March 2012, 02:00 PM   #237
Rolfe
Adult human female
 
Rolfe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: NT 150 511
Posts: 50,594
I just wanted to revive this thread, because Ashton has debunked Wyatt. He hasn't stated that Wyatt is an irredeemable woo and charlatan, but he has comprehensively rubbished what Wyatt said on Newsnight.

This is in the form of a footnote on page 409, continued on the following page. Ashton is describing the findings of Dr. Richard King who was Megrahi's expert witness on forensic science. After rubbishing Feraday's rationale for labelling clothing as being in the bomb suitcase or the surrounding luggage, he goes on to describe the experiments Wyatt was talking about on the BBC.

Originally Posted by Megrahi: you are my jury
In the absence of any experimental data from the 1989 explosive tests, King undertook his own test, at a firing range in Lincolnshire, with the help of explosives expert Dr. John Wyatt of the security consultance SDS Group. [Didn't we decide Wyatt does not have a doctorate?] Wyatt constructed an IED.... [snip details of the test, which the text implies was carried out only once]

Footnote: A BBC Newsnight programme, broadcast on 6 January 2010, claimed that no fragments of circuit board survived the test explosion. This false assertion was based on an interview with Dr Wyatt, who, unlike Dr King, did not analyse the debris and was therefore not aware that circuit-board, plastic, paper and cardboard fragments were recovered. On the day of the broadcast Tony Kelly [Megrahi's solicitor] emailed the editor of Newsnight to inform him that the programme was based on misinformation, but the BBC went ahead with the broadcast.

Well, colour me extremely unsurprised.

Rolfe.
__________________
"The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.
Rolfe is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd March 2012, 06:06 PM   #238
BazBear
Possible Suspect
 
BazBear's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Stowe VT USA
Posts: 3,018
Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
Sigh. One of Caustic Logic's lines of speculation is that there might have been more than 450g, so that positioning in the hold would have been less critical. But if you go down that line, you're even more liable to vapourise everything in the suitcase.

Rolfe.
This might be the best CT thread ever.

It probably shouldn't be here, really...but I suppose it IS against the mainstream thinking.

I've never had the joy of playing with an explosive like semtex or it's close cousins, but even with blackpowder, the various "smokeless" powders, as well as seriously stupid concoctions made from model rocket engines in my youth, I have no doubt c. 450 grams...where it was....did the damage.

Then again, I'm just a layman, I have no dog in this fight, and for once on CT topic I've watched a real debate unfold. TY Rolfe, LT. etc. etc.

The who and when are more in doubt, to say the least.
__________________
I don't see how an article of clothing can be indecent. A person, yes. - Robert A. Heinlein
If Christ died for our sins, dare we make his martyrdom meaningless by not committing them? - Jules Feiffer
If you are going through hell, keep going - Winston Churchill
BazBear is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Conspiracies and Conspiracy Theories

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 04:30 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.