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Tags Abdelbaset Ali al-Megrahi , John Wyatt , Lockerbie bombing , Muammar al-Gaddafi , Pan Am 103

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Old 2nd October 2009, 02:38 AM   #81
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Originally Posted by LONGTABBER PE View Post

USUALLY- these signatures are left by the handler ( gloves or not but gloves transfer more since they are impermeable) and are trace except in cases where the explosive literally sat there for days or weeks.
Originally Posted by Dan O. View Post

Unless there is a better description of what was found, I am inclined to think they are only referring to trace deposits that were transfered by the blast.
OK so the UTA bombs suitcase was put together by sloppy handlers that smeared a film of this stuff on the inside of the case, and the way that this bomb was constructed it blew like a shaped charge, leaving enough of one of the inside walls behind. Or some of the main charge was blown onto the interior of the case by the primer or the booster, immediately prior to the main charge detonating. Or something like that.

Scratch that idea.
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Old 2nd October 2009, 04:53 AM   #82
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Originally Posted by LONGTABBER PE View Post
I think it bogus and either made up or he was "told" what to remember. I've seen this in my LE career. There are many people who get caught up in the moment and want to "help" or otherwise feel like a "part of the case" and embellish a great deal. I obviously cant say thats what this guy did but it looks like it from here.

My original opinion was that the purchase took place pretty much as per Gauci's initial statement, which suggested 23rd November, had a purchaser over 6 feet tall and over 50 years old, and specified a list of items bought (and the total cost, if de Braeckeleer's report is correct). There were details in the account that indicated gauci really did remember the purchase, and in more detail than might have been expected. However, police later pressurised Gauci to add more items to the list, and change his description of the purchaser, and the more they did that the more confused he became. This fits the observed facts as regards the investigation.

Originally Posted by LONGTABBER PE View Post
BINGO, theres your answer. Maybe its just my SF mindset and living that life for so long but I cannot fathom even the possibility or accept it as possible that a TRAINED and/or experienced military type ( dont care whose army he is in) who set out with the SOLE PURPOSE of stuffing a suitcase for a bomb would go to what amounts to a specialty shop and buy odd items ( that a clerk might remember) and pay for it with a credit card when he could go to the flea market or just dumpster dive and leave no trails.

To me that would qualify for a Darwin- maybe he did but I just cant accept it.

I kind of agree. I always thought it was weird in the extreme, however it appeared to me to be in the category of "it happened so it must be possible". But I've always wondered what I'd do if I was in that position.

For a start, let's get rid of this notion that these people were "staying close to base". The PFLP-GC were based near Frankfurt, but they travelled around. Abu Talb was in Malta on several occasions, but he was also lots of other places. He is currently in jail in Sweden, having lived these for some time. Megrahi certainly had strong connections to Malta, but he too was all over the bloody place including Switzerland a lot. Why buy the clothes "close to home" at all? Either of them could have bought the clothes anyplace they damned well pleased. (And if the plot was to put the bomb on a feeder flight at Malta, as per the allegation against Megrahi, surely the last place you'd want to draw attention to by risking pieces of identifiable evidence in the wreck would be Malta.)

And why buy them in a small shop where you're the only customer at a quiet time of day? Behaving in a fairly peculiar manner by buying a strange mix of items without apparently caring much what you were stuffing into your bag?

Personally, I'd have avoided new stuff at all, because even I know you can often trace where stuff has been bought through the manufacturer. I hadn't thought of dumpster diving, but yes, that's one. Or as I said, a charity shop. Choose a busy time, say Saturday afternoon, and they're usually staffed by random volunteers at that time too. Use one in a big, anonymous town. Chances are the purchases might never even be traced to that charity shop, as tracing the original purchasers of old-ish items to ask them what they did with them would probably be quite difficult.

Or if I was going for new stuff, I'd choose a big branch of M&S or something similar. The purchases could probably be traced to that shop, but finding out who bought them would be a different matter so long as I used cash.

The whole Gauci purchase story does have a distinct air of someone actively wanting their activities to be noticed and traceable. Even if I was sure the clothes were going to end up at the bottom of the Atlantic, I don't think I'd have done it quite so blatantly.

It's just that I really don't know where that line of thinking goes. I don't think it goes anywhere really plausible.

Rolfe.
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Old 2nd October 2009, 05:18 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post



I kind of agree. I always thought it was weird in the extreme, however it appeared to me to be in the category of "it happened so it must be possible". But I've always wondered what I'd do if I was in that position.



The whole Gauci purchase story does have a distinct air of someone actively wanting their activities to be noticed and traceable. Even if I was sure the clothes were going to end up at the bottom of the Atlantic, I don't think I'd have done it quite so blatantly.

It's just that I really don't know where that line of thinking goes. I don't think it goes anywhere really plausible.

Rolfe.
All things being equal,( and the fact I cant buy the stupid part) and under the assumption that he actually did purchase this "stuff" in a manner similar to what is claimed.

Alternate theory # 47603

Suppose his entire role in this was to be the diversion and deliberate "red herring". Suppose he acted like Maxwell Smart on purpose to ensure the investigation would focus on him and not where the real truth lied.

Wouldnt be the first time such a thing has been done.

If he did do all this so overtly- he had to have a reason and I dont buy careless or stupid.

Alternate theory # 47604

He did buy this stuff for himself totally innocently and in the process of the investigation, the receipt was discovered and alternate items were purchased in order to frame him. ( which might account for the alleged "undamaged manual" and different size shirt)

After all, its not like shirts and such have specific serial numbers
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Old 2nd October 2009, 07:29 AM   #84
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
Behaving in a fairly peculiar manner by buying a strange mix of items without apparently caring much what you were stuffing into your bag?
Sounds like someone with more money than time shopping for christmas gifts.
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Old 2nd October 2009, 03:46 PM   #85
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Well, he did say the trousers were for somebody else.

So someone bought a bunch of stuff in Sliema on (say) 23rd November, and he wound up on PA103 en route to New York on 21st December, with the prezzies in his suitcase. There was nobody on PA103 who started their journey in Malta, but then it was four weeks.

Somehow, that suitcase was so close to the bomb that everybody ended up believing (wrongly) that these things were actually wrapped round the bomb. The true owner is dead on the ground in Dumfriesshire, so can't tell anyone about the innocence of his purchase. Or about the innocent Toshiba radio-casette, still brand new in its box with its manual, that he was also carrying.

O.... K....

Anybody prepared to run with this one?

Rolfe.
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Old 2nd October 2009, 08:23 PM   #86
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
Well, he did say the trousers were for somebody else.

So someone bought a bunch of stuff in Sliema on (say) 23rd November, and he wound up on PA103 en route to New York on 21st December, with the prezzies in his suitcase. There was nobody on PA103 who started their journey in Malta, but then it was four weeks.

Somehow, that suitcase was so close to the bomb that everybody ended up believing (wrongly) that these things were actually wrapped round the bomb. The true owner is dead on the ground in Dumfriesshire, so can't tell anyone about the innocence of his purchase. Or about the innocent Toshiba radio-casette, still brand new in its box with its manual, that he was also carrying.

O.... K....

Anybody prepared to run with this one?
Rolfe.
Not anymore that theoretically its very realistic and possible.

Considering the bubble is maybe 3-5 feet and the immediate blast area is up to about 20ish feet and there are bags all around. ( this is not even considering the turbulence and mixing from the fall itself)

It would be normal for several bags to be destroyed at various levels and their contents mixed together. There is no technology or technique on Earth that could accurately distinguish what was where and in what to begin with before the blast.

Certainly you can identify items that were in that zone from their patterns and probably some chemical trace but to say what was where and in what would be virtually impossible.

Thats why I draw the distinction that there may very well have been toshiba fragments survive from a case blown up BY the bomb. Given the popularity of those models and the season- I think it likely that there may have been several in the hold.

I think the problem is the purely circumstantial way they linked them as being a part of "the" bomb.
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Old 2nd October 2009, 10:46 PM   #87
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Lacking a avatar of my own, I was disinclined to associate a poster with one with a belief I could associate myself with. Given the number of JREF posters using theirs here, I understand that I was wrong.

Metal fans, you are screwed to the point of being dismissed as retards if you try to push your dismissed beliefs against the reality here.
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Old 3rd October 2009, 08:48 AM   #88
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Actually, there is a lot of information available to piece together a three dimensional model of the blast vicinity. Detailed examination of fabric fiberss imbedded in other fabrics can tell you the relative velocity of the impact. Velocities in the range of 1000-8000 ms-1 are typical for high explosives (the aircraft is traveling at a paltry 250 ms-1 max). These high velocities are going to be radial from the blast center so you can start to line up the relative positions of each fabric. When hard surfaces are found, it gives you more information of what was inside and what was outside of that surface and establish boundaries within the blast zone. Synthetics also record clues to the temperature and time scale of the blast which can be used to judge the distance from the center.
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Old 3rd October 2009, 01:39 PM   #89
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I was going to start a new thread on the mystery purchaser because more news has broken today. However I don't have time, so I'll just post the links for now.

Revealed: Scots link in $3m Lockerbie pay-out

Is this man key to Lockerbie ...or was he just after the cash?

It's more about the question of whether Megrahi was the purchaser or not, but it confirms several things that were rumoured previously. The Gauci brothers were paid $3 million between them for their evidence, and they were very keen to get the money. There was (allegedly) a witness to the purchase, a friend of Gauci's, who says there were two purchasers, neither of whom was Megrahi.

And something I didn't know that may clarify the situation. It was Paul Gauci who was keen to have the money, and he was "controlling" of his brother. I had difficulty understanding why Tony Gauci was so tentative if he was so keen on the money. Why didn't he just come out and say he was pretty sure Megrahi was the purchaser? However, if he was in fact being leaned on by his dominant brother, that could explain that one.

Rolfe.
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Old 6th October 2009, 02:01 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by Dan O. View Post
Actually, there is a lot of information available to piece together a three dimensional model of the blast vicinity. Detailed examination of fabric fiberss imbedded in other fabrics can tell you the relative velocity of the impact. Velocities in the range of 1000-8000 ms-1 are typical for high explosives (the aircraft is traveling at a paltry 250 ms-1 max). These high velocities are going to be radial from the blast center so you can start to line up the relative positions of each fabric. When hard surfaces are found, it gives you more information of what was inside and what was outside of that surface and establish boundaries within the blast zone. Synthetics also record clues to the temperature and time scale of the blast which can be used to judge the distance from the center.

I'm just bumping this for Longtabber, to see if he has any more detail about his theory of what happened.

I suspect the answer is either the obvious (the PFLP-GC, but there are reasons the PtB really, really didn't and don't want to go there), or something nobody has suggested yet. I'd like to hear more about how Longtabber's thoughts are going, even if I play Devil's Advocate to him.

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Old 6th October 2009, 02:12 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by Dan O. View Post
Actually, there is a lot of information available to piece together a three dimensional model of the blast vicinity. Detailed examination of fabric fiberss imbedded in other fabrics can tell you the relative velocity of the impact. Velocities in the range of 1000-8000 ms-1 are typical for high explosives (the aircraft is traveling at a paltry 250 ms-1 max). These high velocities are going to be radial from the blast center so you can start to line up the relative positions of each fabric. When hard surfaces are found, it gives you more information of what was inside and what was outside of that surface and establish boundaries within the blast zone. Synthetics also record clues to the temperature and time scale of the blast which can be used to judge the distance from the center.

I'm just bumping this for Longtabber, to see if he has any more detail about his theory of what happened.

I suspect the answer is either the obvious (the PFLP-GC, but there are reasons the PtB really, really didn't and don't want to go there), or something nobody has suggested yet. I'd like to hear more about how Longtabber's thoughts are going, even if I play Devil's Advocate to him.

Rolfe.
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Old 7th October 2009, 12:14 AM   #92
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
I'm just bumping this for Longtabber, to see if he has any more detail about his theory of what happened.

I suspect the answer is either the obvious (the PFLP-GC, but there are reasons the PtB really, really didn't and don't want to go there), or something nobody has suggested yet. I'd like to hear more about how Longtabber's thoughts are going, even if I play Devil's Advocate to him.

Rolfe.
I take it you are not aware of this thread then? (linked post concerns Longtabber, he's also claiming the Oklahoma bombing was a set up!)
http://www.internationalskeptics.com...44#post5168944

Longtabber is busy trying to extinguish his pants at the moment, so I suggest we take his contributions to this and the other Lockerbie threads with a very large grain of salt.
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Old 7th October 2009, 01:29 AM   #93
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O.... K....

He's not the only person pushing the theory that the Maltese-clothes-in-Samsonite-suitcase story is all too neat, but I do note that the people who are most prominent with this line of argument are mostly kooks.

ETA: Oh. Definietly, OH. And feel free to call him out on this thread if you think it's appropriate for the forum. I don't think we need his sort of speculation to muddy the waters of what is already a pretty muddy affair. I'm much more persuaded by what Dan O. has to say.

ETA again: I was suspicious of Longtabber, because of his tendency to shoot from the hip and come out with what seemed wild scenarios that really didn't fit other aspects of the incident. All the while telling us he scorned CTs and wasn't a CTer. That thread confirms all my suspicions.

I do like this comment, as regards discussing Longtabber on that forum!

Originally Posted by Phrost
More than Kosher, it's halal.

Think of us as a version of the JREF forums without a giant stick up our collective ass, plus punching people.

Rolfe.
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Old 7th October 2009, 08:36 AM   #94
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I don't think calling out is appropriate, or necessary, as JoeyDonuts has done that nicely in the other thread. I must confess Longtabber was getting right on my thruppenny bits, but I thought that anything more than the gentle hints of disbelief I had been giving would have resulted in an even more bombastic and prolix post than normal from him, which would have broken up what was a very interesting and well argued group of threads.
Personally, based on the fact that Longtabber never produced an argument backed by anything more than the size and potency of his SF membrum virile, and that there is considerable evidence that he lied about that, I'm going to ignore pretty much everything he posted.
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Old 7th October 2009, 01:03 PM   #95
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This "SF community" stuff just cracks me up. Where I come from, that's the BSFA.

I think, at some point, a poster's own argument from authority has to be met with some ad hominem analysis. I was trying to soft-pedal my reservations about Longtabber too, because I saw the outbursts he was aiming at those who questioned his credentials more openly. However, his approach wasn't what I would have expected from someone who was a genuine expert.

This repeated "don't suffer fools gladly" (or indeed at all) while not actually being familiar with the evidence in the case was rather striking. To declare that the suitcase and clothes (and luggage container) had all been fabricated by blowing them up on a pad with dynamite then planting the pieces, simply flew in the face of the known events at the beginning of the investigation. His willingness to declare a large number of academics and other forensic experts mistaken, or fools, was unwise, to say the least. And did I spot him slagging off a posted link to the Air Accident Investigation Board report on the incident as "internet speculation"?

He boasted of having a PhD; well, I've got one of these as well, and I don't (usually) go around behaving like a complete arse on the proceeds. I hadn't realised he was also making implausible claims of a military CV, but I've seen the posts now.

So basically, I agree with your call of BS here. I see every reason to believe the Pan Am 103 bomb consisted of 450g Semtex concealed inside a Toshiba radio-cassette player, packed with clothes bought from Mary's House in Sliema, in a brown Samsonite hardshell suitcase. This suitcase was placed on the second layer of cases near the bottom of luggage container AVE4041, on the extreme outside of the container close to the hull of the aircraft. The evidence for that is well attested and doesn't seem to include any impossibilities or unsupportable assumptions.

Nothing Longtabber has said has disproved any of this, his posts being confined to his own opinions backed by appeal to his own authority. That authority has been seriously undermined. So I vote we continue to discuss the incident on the basis of the above facts being reasonably established - which actually simplifies things quite a lot!

Rolfe.
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Old 10th September 2010, 04:21 PM   #96
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Heck, it's been a year! I suppose we've all moved on a long way in that time, I know I have. And yet, I've always stuck with the baseline assumption that the luggage container and the suitcase and the Maltese clothes and at least some of the bits of Toshiba (the Claiden fragment and the bits of white plastic) were genuine.

Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
I can't explain why Longtabber's opinion that any radio involved in such a blast would inevitably have been completely vaporised differs so sharply from the opinions of the explosives experts who looked at the Lockerbie debris, but as we can see, it wasn't just Hayes, Feraday and Thurman involved here, it was a number of highly-qualified experts, none of whom seem to have considered that a significant sticking-point.

Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
Nevertheless, the only people I see declaring that no fragment of a timer could possibly have survived that explosion are Bollier and de Braeckeleer, and there seems to be a distinct lack of a stampede of other explosives experts to agree with them.

Um, no longer. The Wyatt tests were first publicised in January by the BBC, but have surfaced again more recently in an article in a Sunday tabloid. This was reproduced online on Robert Black's blog at the beginning of the week. The relevant extract reads:

Originally Posted by Marcello Mega
Dr John Wyatt, the United Nations’ European consultant on explosives, carried out a series of 20 controlled explosions within brick and corrugated iron constructions in a secluded part of the Kent countryside.

Dr Wyatt revealed last night that the experiment was designed to replicate as closely as possible the conditions of the Lockerbie bomb.

Radio-cassette recorders, containing semtex and timing devices of the type that led to Megrahi’s conviction, were placed within hard-shell Samsonite suitcases and surrounded by clothing matching the contents of the case that concealed the bomb.

The circuit board was completely vaporised in all tests until the amount of semtex was reduced considerably. Only when the scientists went as low as 150g, 37.5% of the quantity that downed Pan Am 103 on 21 December 1988, did any trace of the circuit board survive, and it could only be viewed and identified through a microscope.

Dr Wyatt said: “We carried out the tests indoors specifically to make it easier to gather up all the residue of the explosions. Until we got down to 150g of semtex, nothing was left but dust.

“At 150g, we found one tiny fragment that had been part of the circuit board, and it had to be checked and identified through a microscope. Even at 150g, the device, the circuit board and the radio-cassette recorder had literally disintegrated, a far cry from the evidence presented at the trial.

“Before carrying out the tests, I found it quite extraordinary that a 4mm sq fragment had survived an explosion caused by 400g of semtex, had been found among long grass and foliage many miles from Lockerbie and had been identifiable. Now, I find it completely unbelievable.

“The tests we carried out showed a consistency that leaves no room for doubt. I don’t think it could have happened. So where did the fragment come from?”

I think the timer fragment was a plant anyway, although as some people commented, wouldn't it be a bit silly to plant something that couldn't have survived the explosion? I also think the Horton page of the radio manual was a plant, and although Dr. Wyatt doesn't say anything about that, if the timer fragment couldn't have survived the paper manual page would have been a snowball in Hell. And again, I think the bits of black plastic radio case were also planted. But, I thought they were planted to match the genuine Claiden fragment, as a misdirect as to the exact model, that's all.

Now Wyatt's work seems to be lining up with Longtabber, amazing though that seems. He says the radio also vapourised. Which means the Claiden fragment, found in mid-January in Scotland by an independent witness who recognised its importance at the time, can't be genuine.

What did Peter Claiden really find and how did it get there?

And then, although Wyatt doesn't mention the clothes as such, if the radio vapourised, then was it at all possible the pieces of clothes survived as described? Bear in mind that the Golfer also claimed the clothes were planted.

Quote:
Golfer alleges pieces of supposedly bomb-damaged clothing, parts of a timer circuit board and an instruction manual for a Toshiba radio-cassette recorder were added to the evidence to lay a trail that would lead to the 'bomber'.

And yet the clothes seem to be even better attested-to than the Claiden fragment. Ten items of clothing were identified as blast-damaged. The very day the cops tracked down Tony Gauci (through the manufacturers' order books), he spontaneously reeled off seven of the items as having been bought by the tall dark stranger.

I could seriously cope with the concept that these clothes were all planted (to lead to Malta, where Megrahi was conveniently present complete with false passport); it would be remarkably easy to make sense of a lot of things if they were. However, I can't make it fly. They only way it flies is if Tony Gauci not only has a brain, but has an acting talent to rival Olivier, and the patience of Job (to wait more than ten years for his payoff, without even any great certainty of getting it).

The way the suitcase debris is described seems all of a piece, with a tiny bit of the timer, a number of tiny bits of the radio, various bits of clothes with the babygro (wrapped round the radio) being the most damaged, and some fair-sized chunks of suitcase. The bits of radio and the timer fragment seemed to have survived by being blasted into the cloth. While one might dispute the provenance of some of it, the only part whose survival seemed really unbelievable was the manual page.

Longtabber suggested it should all have been vapourised, and that the evidence was fabricated by blowing some stuff up on a pallet with dynamite. We implored him to look at the totality of the evidence, and accept that the clothes and the suitcase and at least some of the radio had to be genuine.

Longtabber was a poseur. But John Wyatt does not appear to be in that class.

How do we cope with the possibility that there may have been no radio and no Maltese clothes? Where did these bits of evidence come from, if so?

Rolfe.
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Old 11th September 2010, 02:49 PM   #97
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I've just been having way too much fun re-reading the unmasking of Longtabber on Bullshido.net. However, I suppose even a stopped clock is right twice a day.

I think the Wyatt tests may have been done in 2008, although they weren't made public till January this year. What I haven't seen is any mention of who commissioned and paid for them. I don't suppose Wyatt did all that out of personal curiosity. Not that I'm suggesting there's anything funny about it, I'd just like to know. My guess is that it was the defence, and it was evidence to be used at the cancelled appeal, hence the publication after the appeal was dropped.

I'd love to see the full results. What was left of the clothes? Was any debris blasted into collars or seams as was found to have happened in several cases in the Lockerbie evidence? What about the suitcase? And the surrounding luggage? However, I think we have to wait for this book coming out, "maybe" later this year.

If there was really no radio (no Claiden chip), and no clothes, where the hell does that leave the case? I can't imagine.

I wonder if there was something wrong with the test protocol, possibly because of a wrong assumption by the forensic team in the first place. Otherwise, could the bomb suitcase have been on top of the Bedford suitcase, which was never moved, and the debris said to be in the bomb suitcase really in the Bedford suitcase? But if that was an innocent case, why were these contents never traced to a passenger?

I think I have a headache.

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Old 12th September 2010, 12:13 AM   #98
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Originally Posted by Rolfe
The distance of 10 inches favoured by de Braeckeleer really does put the whole thing in the melting point, because it would pretty much have to be outside the baggage container. And yet, the rest of the evidence supporting the theory that the bomb was among the luggage is so strong, it would take a lot to knock it down as far as I can see.

In contrast, Longtabber seems to be assigning that 450g of Semtex a lot more destructive power than de Braeckeleer is, and thus allowing a greater distance between the charge and the skin of the plane. This would allow the charge to be inside the luggage container.
I didn't even see this thread at all until today! Way behind, obviously. Longtabber PE's back? Cool! I've never liked this explosion revisionism - DeBraeckeleer, Bollier, Parkes, Protheroe, Ronnie the Pict, Norrie, etc. suggesting a second bomb, one outside the luggage container, in the cargo hold, illegal munitions, yadda yadda. That's partly my wiring vis a vis fellow activists, and I don't have the science background or detailed study to say for sure. But for that 10" allegation to be true, all the luggage container and probably luggage and all had to be fabricated. I'm open on the luggage, especially the important ones, being faked later, but the container is just too much. It clearly shows the blast was inside of it, right about where Bedford saw a brown Samsonite case.

I've avoided this issue in the past, but was just been forced, in the course of seeking submissions for my site, to consider whether I'll take the time ... but the whole point of asking for help was a lack of time ... so I think I'll pass on it again.

Quote:
His objections to the suitcase theory seem to be different, essentially that there was too much evidence to be compatible with stuff that was so close to such a powerful explosion.
Sorry I missed the context of that suspicion, but out of curiosity, Longtabber: Nevermind the suspect contents, just considering the suitcase scraps we've seen:
photo link
material coded graphic
This is less than half of a suitcase, but there are some darn large chunks, one of which Dr. Hayes at first thought was from a second suitcase beneath the bomb bag, and resting on the container's floor. He later changed his mind.

Considering that Bedford's actual description was of two apparently matching cases, (both hardsided Samsonite style, one brown and the other one either the same color or quite similar), and considering no one can rule out that they were stacked one on the other, would the collected scraps make more sense as the remains of two such bags (mostly if not all from the bottom case)?
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Old 12th September 2010, 06:07 AM   #99
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Hang on, CL, this is an old thread I bumped, rather than start a new one about the Wyatt tests. Longtabber hasn't been seen since Joey Donuts exposed him as a fraud nearly a year ago.

It's just that Wyatt seems to be saying much the same as Longtabber was, but as he has a lot more credibility than Longtabber, it might be necessary to revisit the argument. The very idea makes my head hurt.

I remember you saying that maybe the pieces found were from the second case of the pair, but it still doesn't make a lick of sense whichever way you look at it.

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Old 12th September 2010, 12:16 PM   #100
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Ooops... no wonder I missed three pages of discussion. I never did link this thread into my list ... another to-do.
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Old 13th September 2010, 04:50 AM   #101
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I just can't get my head around the possibility that an alien device was attached to the inside of the hull, therefore outwith container 4041, and a array of false evidence then latterly produced. I accept there appears the strong suggestion that some of the crucial pieces presented at Zeist was manipulated, perhaps fabricated, but essentially I'm still pretty sure the bomb was contained within a suitcase and placed inside container 4041.

An alien device attached to the inner of the fuselage, not observed, and no one was ever repored to have been observed entering the hull of the aircraft (perhaps an unusual occurance?) to presumably place the charge device in the precise location required of the hull of 103. These two particular scenarios, which have never been even remotely alluded to by any witness, seems to be me to be simply a stretch too far, even allowing for the virtually non-existant 'security' that appeared to be in place around the baggage hold and loading areas at Heathrow in 1988.

However, there is certainly one aspect that does slightly disturb, or confuse, me, albeit a somewhat simplistic assertion. Dr Wyatt's tests, and his indication that he went from the lower end of the presumed amount of explosive used in the actual bomb, with pieces only evident when viewed under a microscope, is the extent and power of the explosion that according to the AAIB produced a relatively small initial rupture to the hull of the jumbo jet. In the reconstructions produced by Dr Wyatt, and shown on the Newsnight programme, the explosion does appear to me, not to be compatible with the small hole punctured by the bomb said to be placed inside 4041. I'm not sure what I really expected, but the explosion resulting from Wyatt's tests seem much more violent than I had ever envisaged. Even allowing for the clothing and other luggage packed around the samsonite, and the actual container wall itself, the explosion represented in Dr Wyatt's tests, does seem to me to be far more powerful and intense than I was always led to believe the explosion had been. Would this kind of explosion only cause the relative small rupture we're led to believe was the onset of 103's disintegration??
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Old 13th September 2010, 07:44 AM   #102
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Originally Posted by Buncrana View Post
I just can't get my head around the possibility that an alien device was attached to the inside of the hull, therefore outwith container 4041, and a array of false evidence then latterly produced. I accept there appears the strong suggestion that some of the crucial pieces presented at Zeist was manipulated, perhaps fabricated, but essentially I'm still pretty sure the bomb was contained within a suitcase and placed inside container 4041.

An alien device attached to the inner of the fuselage, not observed, and no one was ever repored to have been observed entering the hull of the aircraft (perhaps an unusual occurance?) to presumably place the charge device in the precise location required of the hull of 103. These two particular scenarios, which have never been even remotely alluded to by any witness, seems to be me to be simply a stretch too far, even allowing for the virtually non-existant 'security' that appeared to be in place around the baggage hold and loading areas at Heathrow in 1988.

I entirely agree with you. Even if we take the Wyatt evidence at face value, the only real inference we might draw, I think, is that the material that was assumed to have been in the bomb suitcase, wasn't. That the investigators assumed blast-damaged items perhaps from nearby cases had actually been in the bomb bag itself.

That brings its own problems of course, but it's not as mad as sabotaged luggage containers or shaped charges attached to the airframe.

Originally Posted by Buncrana View Post
However, there is certainly one aspect that does slightly disturb, or confuse, me, albeit a somewhat simplistic assertion. Dr Wyatt's tests, and his indication that he went from the lower end of the presumed amount of explosive used in the actual bomb, with pieces only evident when viewed under a microscope, is the extent and power of the explosion that according to the AAIB produced a relatively small initial rupture to the hull of the jumbo jet. In the reconstructions produced by Dr Wyatt, and shown on the Newsnight programme, the explosion does appear to me, not to be compatible with the small hole punctured by the bomb said to be placed inside 4041. I'm not sure what I really expected, but the explosion resulting from Wyatt's tests seem much more violent than I had ever envisaged. Even allowing for the clothing and other luggage packed around the samsonite, and the actual container wall itself, the explosion represented in Dr Wyatt's tests, does seem to me to be far more powerful and intense than I was always led to believe the explosion had been. Would this kind of explosion only cause the relative small rupture we're led to believe was the onset of 103's disintegration??

I don't know about that part. Since we're not shielded from the explosions in the Wyatt tests by the skin of the plane itself, it's hard to judge. Also, there is footage that's sometimes shown of a controlled explosion going off on the tarmac in an actual 747, and it's a helluva fireball. The whole plane splits apart. (I think it's actually part of the Indian Head tests.)

The "Plane Truth" web site criticises that footage as not being relevant to PA103, citing in particular that the explosion is in the wrong place - too far aft. It certainly seems that way from the footage, also it's a far bigger bang than I would have expected. Just like Wyatt, I suppose.

Someone remarked earlier that the investigating authorities always gather up wreckage from car bombs and so on, hoping to find bits of detonator or other forensic clues. And it seems odd to suggest that bits of plastic and circuit board and speaker wire and so on had survived lodged in pieces of cloth, if in fact this was impossible from the get-go.

I have a bad case of incredulity on the Horton manual page. I also find the timer fragment implausible, partly as being by far the biggest part of circuit board found and yet from the device nearest the Semtex, and partly because it just happens to be the only piece of the board with a pattern distinctive enough to be identified as far as I can see. And that's before we start looking at the other plausibility problems attached to that one.

However, I'm much more reluctant to abandon the Claiden fragment and the Maltese clothes as incidental findings of some sort, and I have a lot of trouble seeing how either of these could be fabrications. So if Wyatt is alleging that these couldn't have survived either, then yes, I'm thinking there's something wrong with the way the tests were done.

Rolfe.
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Old 14th September 2010, 01:51 PM   #103
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Now, THIS is an excellent thread. VERY interesting. Thanks for creating it Rolfe. I'm just popping in now to add kudos. Busy 'til next week, but I'll definitely be lurking and possibly adding later.
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Old 14th September 2010, 02:09 PM   #104
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Originally Posted by LONGTABBER PE View Post
After all, its not like shirts and such have specific serial numbers
Actually, they did, in this case. That's one of the ways they tracked the clothing back to Malta. I think it was a pair of pants that had a serial number stamped on the inside pocket that was tracked back to the manufacturer, whose records showed the retailer to whom the clothing was sold. I don't have time now to dig up the evidence, but I'll post later.
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Old 14th September 2010, 02:09 PM   #105
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I think I've figured out why that video clip shows such a big bang and the whole plane seems to come apart.

Originally Posted by Zeist proceedings page 2109
Q When carrying out the major trials which are referred to at page 28 of your report, that is the detonation of four bombs simultaneously on a Boeing 747.
A Yes.
Q You included one detonation from an explosive, I think you said about 450 grammes in size?
A There were four bombs of 450 -- 454 grammes in size, yes.

OK, I suppose they did it that way for a reason, though it seems odd to me.

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Old 14th September 2010, 02:14 PM   #106
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Originally Posted by Bunntamas View Post
Actually, they did, in this case. That's one of the ways they tracked the clothing back to Malta. I think it was a pair of pants that had a serial number stamped on the inside pocket that was tracked back to the manufacturer, whose records showed the retailer to whom the clothing was sold. I don't have time now to dig up the evidence, but I'll post later.

Bunntamas, there's not much point in responding to Longtabber. He hasn't been seen for almost a year, since it was shown he was pretending to a military background he didn't actually have. He didn't know anything about Pan Am 103 or the evidence and was making it up as he went along.

I only resurrected the thread because his assertion was apparently the same as Wyatt's findings, possibly by sheer chance. So we've been over quite a lot of the points already.

It wasn't exactly a serial number on the trousers, but the pattern and size and other features were, as you say, sufficient to trace the item from the manufacturer to the retailer, who remembered selling the trousers. This appears to me to be entirely kosher.

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Old 14th September 2010, 02:21 PM   #107
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
I think the Wyatt tests may have been done in 2008, although they weren't made public till January this year. What I haven't seen is any mention of who commissioned and paid for them. I don't suppose Wyatt did all that out of personal curiosity. Not that I'm suggesting there's anything funny about it, I'd just like to know. My guess is that it was the defence, and it was evidence to be used at the cancelled appeal, hence the publication after the appeal was dropped.
I'd like to see who commissioned Wyatt's tests too. Particularly considering one of his clients noted on his web site is North Africa and the British Counsil.


Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
I think I have a headache.
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Old 14th September 2010, 02:39 PM   #108
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It's odd nobody has mentioned this. It's the sort of thing the BBC would usually have included.

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Old 14th September 2010, 02:43 PM   #109
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
Bunntamas, there's not much point in responding to Longtabber. He hasn't been seen for almost a year, since it was shown he was pretending to a military background he didn't actually have. He didn't know anything about Pan Am 103 or the evidence and was making it up as he went along.
Thanks Rolfe, I've just now looked at the beginning of this thread and realized the exposure of Longtabber.[/quote]

Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
I only resurrected the thread because his assertion was apparently the same as Wyatt's findings, possibly by sheer chance. So we've been over quite a lot of the points already.
Yep. Got that. Sorry. I'm catching up here.

Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
It wasn't exactly a serial number on the trousers, but the pattern and size and other features were, as you say, sufficient to trace the item from the manufacturer to the retailer, who remembered selling the trousers. This appears to me to be entirely kosher.
Mmmmm... not sure that's accurate. I do believe that they traced (a) serial number(s) back to the manufacturer. I recall having a conversation about this with one of the DOJ attorneys while at the trial, and also reading about it. Like I said, I'll dig that up & post later. Promise.
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Old 14th September 2010, 02:45 PM   #110
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
It's odd nobody has mentioned this. It's the sort of thing the BBC would usually have included.

Rolfe.
I was wondering that to. At first I thought he may have done them off his own back, but they looked awfully expensive and complex. Who funded them would be very interesting indeed.
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Old 14th September 2010, 02:49 PM   #111
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
It's odd nobody has mentioned this. It's the sort of thing the BBC would usually have included.

Rolfe.
The media skip over details all the time. And there is a ton of censure. I'm not saying its (all) governmental censure. Mostly, I think it's about what headlines are going to sell the most. However, I do know, from experience that governments and lobbyists DO have the ability to hush certain media.
One of the most interesting things for me about traveling to other countries is the difference in what is and what is not reported and the contrast between what's reported (and sadly, not reported) within and beyond the US.
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Old 14th September 2010, 02:50 PM   #112
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Oh, and by the way, with regard to North African and British clients of Wyatt; Pr. Black actually omitted that in his blog post as well.
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Old 14th September 2010, 02:55 PM   #113
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I can't see who his other clients are matters a toss, unless you have reason to suspect he's bent, or deliberately producing a biassed result.

I suspect the tests were commissioned by the Defence as part of the preparation for the second appeal.

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Old 14th September 2010, 02:57 PM   #114
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Here's the picture of the label on the trousers. The "34" is just the waist size.

http://image.guardian.co.uk/sys-imag...lothes-toe.jpg

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Old 14th September 2010, 03:58 PM   #115
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How is "North Africa" a client? I recall he's the UN's explosive consultant for the Europe and North Africa region, which is just how they set up regions, I guess.

I agree with Davies/Plane Truth that those total blow up tests have nothing to do with the bombing that happened. It looks like just good TV drama. Indicentally, the tests by Wyatt we've seen were selected for TV, also with a focus on the more dramatic end. He did 20 tests, 19 in controlled rooms, with blasts as low as 150 grams and perhaps lower. The huge blast in the container was the only of its kind.

I sent an e-mail to Dr. Wyatt some months back asking how we could get more details of the test results and methods, and how he came to do them. No response. How could he ignore ME, I thought? (note: that was said jokingly) Must be holding it back for something or someone else. Come to find out the details are going in Megrahi's book, they were done back in 2008 or so, and I forget just what but something I saw suggests Megrahi's legal team commissioned them. That's a slight PR problem if so, that will be made a huge one by some people.

But myself, I'm inclined by now to consider the most recent details of the findings, plus what Longtabber said, as more in line with common sense than accepting this debris is. If I may plug, I just put up a blog post on the subject. If the plane was ruptured, I think the radio would be dust and vapor.

The clothes and suitcase are a bit more arguable. But I think there were two suitcases of the same basic sort to start with, stacked after Bedford saw them. The blast destroyed one and a half of these, leaving us only the bottom half of the lower case, which perhaps contained said clothes...

And it just now struck me it could contain a Libya-traceable radio as well, if the PFLP-GC wanted to frame Libya to cover for themselves... Interesting, probably full of problems if I thought about it more...

ETA: And the clothes were first traced by conveniently intact serial numbers, and then at the Yorkie factory, the cutting records showed the material and make of that batch, small number variously reported of six to 20-ish pair, all sent to the shop with the compliant idiot savant Tony Gauci.

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Old 14th September 2010, 04:17 PM   #116
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Rabbit-hole, ur entering it!

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Old 14th September 2010, 05:31 PM   #117
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Originally Posted by Caustic Logic View Post
ETA: And the clothes were first traced by conveniently intact serial numbers, and then at the Yorkie factory, the cutting records showed the material and make of that batch, small number variously reported of six to 20-ish pair, all sent to the shop with the compliant idiot savant Tony Gauci.
Yes, that's what I'm referring to. Thanks Adam. I think I have more.

Rolfe, Rabbit hole?
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Old 14th September 2010, 05:38 PM   #118
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
I can't see who his other clients are matters a toss, unless you have reason to suspect he's bent, or deliberately producing a biassed result.

I suspect the tests were commissioned by the Defence as part of the preparation for the second appeal.

Rolfe.
I'm just saying it's interesting that his clients, including North Africa and the UK are omitted in Pr. Black's post, and as you note, in other media posts about him. Don't you think it's a bit wierd, if not possibly biased, to say the least, that North Afica, which includes Libya, is one of his clients? Seriiously, I'm asking you to be neutral here. If someone is conducting tests / research on a bomb that is allegedly (yes, I'm using that word for the sake of peace here, I'm not saying I agree) planted by Libyans / North African Government officials, that the person conducting the bomb tests is also being paid by a client about whom the research is being conducted? Really? No question whatsoever? Really????
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Old 14th September 2010, 05:40 PM   #119
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I'm not sure it matters, but weren't the serial numbers on the manufacturer's patterns? If there was any number apart from the size on the fragment itself, that's news to me.

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Old 14th September 2010, 05:42 PM   #120
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Originally Posted by Bunntamas View Post
Yes, that's what I'm referring to. Thanks Adam. I think I have more.

Rolfe, Rabbit hole?

When I say rabbit hole, I think Caustic Logic is doubting the provenance of items which are very difficult to dislodge. In particular, the clothes from Mary's House have much more solid evidence behind them than one might expect given the basic improbability of the story.

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