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Tags Abdelbaset Ali al-Megrahi , Lockerbie bombing , Pan Am 103

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Old 6th November 2009, 12:59 AM   #121
Caustic Logic
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Rolfe, thanks for the tip to check Coleman on this. Chapter 7 covers the Frankfurt connection, with a detailed analysis of Aviv's earlier claims (which do in fact mention just what he's started saying again lately). He may be too accepting there, but Coleman knows a lot more than I do. I don't know what his sources are on the particulars of airport records, but the line up with what I know where they should, and add some valuable detail, especially on the Pan Am end.

On the Erac printout, he adds some nice details, like about the Aug 89 police report. He considers "the provenance of the crucial computer listing itself" to be "unreliable" and sounds a lot like me here:

Quote:
If the new Malta/Libyan theory was to replace the established Iran/PFLP-GC scenario, it was necessary, first of all, to believe that no one thought to ask for the baggage-loading lists for Flight 103A as soon as terrorist action was suspected -- which was almost at once.

It was necessary to believe that no one in any of the British, German and American police, intelligence and accident inquiry agencies who had a hand in investigating the disaster, or anyone who was in any way involved with airport management or security at Frankfurt or London, thought to secure the baggage lists as the one indispensable tool that would be needed to unravel the mystery of how the bomb got aboard.

It was necessary to believe that the only person who considered the lists to be at all important was a lowly computer operator at Frankfurt airport.
Awesome. Coleman can't publish his book and Frankovich can't sell his movie. Enemies of the state they is, er, fraudulent liars. As if liars are the real threat...

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Old 6th November 2009, 05:22 AM   #122
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I'm unsure what to make of Coleman. The autobiographical parts of the book show him to be a dodgy character anyway. However, it's more likely that dodgy characters will get involved in this sort of thing than fine upstanding citizens. Doesn't make him a liar in this context.

Googling Coleman is instructive. According to Wikipedia he is currently in jail, having pleaded guilty to perjury charges. Presumably the same perjury charges levelled to try to get him extradited from Sweden? Opinion varies wildly between dismissing him as a fantasist and fraudster, and supporting his claims of having been set up to silence him about the Frankfurt end of the Pan Am 103 indicent.

I don't really buy his version of how the bomb got on the plane, but as we've noted, that part isn't actually necessary to whether or not the rest of the story stands up. Even if the rogue bag wasn't substituted for a bag of drugs, it's perfectly possible that the cover-up went into overdrive at an early stage either because someone thought that might have happened, or because they simply wanted to conceal the drug route from the inevitable investigation. Coleman could be wrong about his main premise, and he could be making stuff up about his personal involvement, but still be right enough about that aspect for the authorities to want to silence him and/or discredit him.

It's interesting that it's Coleman and Francovich who seem to have been particularly singled out to be suppressed, and it's these two who have particularly homed in on the drug-smuggling aspect. It almost seems as if it doesn't matter that their stuff is now in the public domain, because it can just be laughed off as conspiracy theorising.

They're not the only commentators who have been smeared though. Aviv, also - though the way he's carrying on right now is rather tending to place him in the Bollier category. Shaughnessy also seems to have had preposterous charges filed against him to shut him up. Le Winter is routinely described as a conman and fantasist. Ben Aryeah was subjected to a very weird attack by an anonymous poster on Robert Black's blog.

I have no idea if these are legitimate assessments of these people's credibility, or deliberate attempts to discredit them. However, if the former, this case seems to have attracted an awfully high percentage of people intent on making up fairy stories for unexplained reasons.

Rolfe.
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Old 7th November 2009, 12:54 AM   #123
Caustic Logic
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
I'm unsure what to make of Coleman. The autobiographical parts of the book show him to be a dodgy character anyway. However, it's more likely that dodgy characters will get involved in this sort of thing than fine upstanding citizens. Doesn't make him a liar in this context.
I'm just a suspicious person, but with something this scale, somehow I expect two main layers of "disinfo" - the obvious clowns, who make the real mis-directors look like bastions of sanity by comparison. Bollier and probably Aviv I put in the first category, and the second is, by nature, hard to assign. Coleman's got a mixed flavor, from what little I know and have read. I haven't even gone over these personal narrative parts

Quote:
Googling Coleman is instructive. According to Wikipedia he is currently in jail, having pleaded guilty to perjury charges. Presumably the same perjury charges levelled to try to get him extradited from Sweden? Opinion varies wildly between dismissing him as a fantasist and fraudster, and supporting his claims of having been set up to silence him about the Frankfurt end of the Pan Am 103 indicent.
AFAIK, he was set-up to make his bogus accusations look more genuine. Emphasis on AFAIK. It does still draw attention away from Heathrow... Alternately, he could be mixing lies with truth in order to get the truth (as he knows it) out but make him able to be dismissed as a fraud (safety valve, gets you in jail and widely ridiculed rather than snuffed out). Again, AFAIK, and it's not that far.

Quote:
I don't really buy his version of how the bomb got on the plane, but as we've noted, that part isn't actually necessary to whether or not the rest of the story stands up. Even if the rogue bag wasn't substituted for a bag of drugs, it's perfectly possible that the cover-up went into overdrive at an early stage either because someone thought that might have happened, or because they simply wanted to conceal the drug route from the inevitable investigation. Coleman could be wrong about his main premise, and he could be making stuff up about his personal involvement, but still be right enough about that aspect for the authorities to want to silence him and/or discredit him.
I like to think so, because his info on this part at least seems good and I'm running with it. I agree a cover-up at Frankfurt doesn't necessarily mean the bomb went on there. It could a separate cover-up of real shadiness, cover-up over suspicion of one, diversion, or even some bizarre coincidence of bad book-keeping. Mmmmaybe. Point is, who knows?

Quote:
Ben Aryeah was subjected to a very weird attack by an anonymous poster on Robert Black's blog.
I finally read that. It doesn't seem that smear went very far. He's Mossad and under a crypto pseudonym that sounds even more Jewish! Duh...

Next I will come back to the particulars added from Coleman's chapter seven to our in-thread exploration of Frankfurt airport and its luggage issues.
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Old 7th November 2009, 01:52 AM   #124
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Originally Posted by Trail of the Octopus
On 17 August 1989, eight months after the disaster, Chief Detective Superintendent John Orr received from the BKA what was said to be a computer print-out of the baggage-loading list for Pan Am Flight 103A from Frankfurt to London on the afternoon of 21 December 1988. Attached to this were two internal reports, dated 2 February 1989, describing the inquiries that BKA officers had made about the baggage-handling system at the airport.
So that's the police report, something I'd wanted to learn more about. August 17 for a date. The information within is about as old as implied by other sources - Printout discovered three weeks after the disaster, so mid-January, and soon given to the BKA. February 2 internal reports "describing the inquiries that BKA officers had made about the baggage-handling system at the airport" are a good fit for follow-ups to this revalation. These I'd love to read. It's also indirect verification that any earlier efforts, fruitful or not, remain under wraps. Did they not look, or not like what they found? This new (to the investigation) development sparked visits to the airport by Scots and the FBI through September and October, pretty much just as their German counterparts did months earlier, and as neither apparently bothered to do before being rung up with the news.

Quote:
Also provided were two worksheets, one typewritten, the other handwritten, that were said to have been prepared on 21 December by airport workers at key points on the conveyor-belt network.
The handwritten one would have to be the station 206 log, with KM180's coding signed for by Mr. Koca. The "typrewritten" one is new to me, and would be interesting to learn more about. It wouldn't be included unless it had some relevance to item 8849, and maybe not in type unless it was part of the computer system. This COULD actually change my view on things, or not.

Quote:
In the margin of the computer print-out, a penciled cross drew particular attention to bag number B8849 - that is the 8849th bag to be logged into the computerized system at Terminal B that day.
Very small point, but we've already established here that's wrong. The printout itself shows no particular pattern wrt tray numbers vs. coding time. The numbers are instead, apparently, permanent ID for physical trays scattered at random - this was simply tray no. 8849 that this bag was (allegedly) put in.

Quote:
More particularly, there were problems with the computer records and worksheets from Frankfurt. For one thing, they did not tally with Pan Am's own baggage records, which although questionable as to their accuracy, were at least compiled in good faith. To this day no one knows exactly how many pieces of luggage there were aboard the doomed flight or consequently whether they have all been recovered or accounted for. Nobody even knows exactly how many suitcases were in the luggage pallet that contained the one with the bomb -- it was 45 or 46 -- or how many of these were brought in by the feeder flight from Frankfurt. (The number was also thought to include not one but four unaccompanied bags.)
There would be a lot of good info coming out of the Pan Am's liability trials, which I'm guessing Coleman drew on for a lot of this. Odd how the whole company seems to have been scuttled to drag some secrets down with them. But on the bolded, I'm not sure if that's a justified assumption or not. It would be interesting to see it explained. There's a lot with Pan Am I need to learn more about, but they were their own entity back in the day with high-level shadiness, or so I hear.

Quote:
The BKA estimate that 'about' 135 bags were sent through to the baggage room below the departure gate of Flight 103A, …. There were no records of luggage sent directly to the departure gate, nor of interline luggage taken directly from one aircraft to another, nor of bags belonging to first-class passengers.
This area must be listed as gate (44) in the printout. It's the handwritten records from the actual loading that are missing, leaving people infering that all this was then loaded. Plane-to-plane interlines and even first class baggage was not recorded, or missing? Is that bad policy or more missing records?

Quote:
Of the 135 bags mentioned by the BKA, 111 had been logged on the Frankfurt computer and about 24 taken directly to the aircraft from three other connecting Pan Am flights. The list compiled by Pan Am at its check-in desks, however, showed not 111 but 117 items of luggage, and the discrepancy has not been convincingly cleared up to this day.
The printout shows 111 bags, Coleman's got another 24 or so coming in outside the system. What does this do for planting possibilities for a bomb or drugs or other secret evils? Pan Am recorded 117 bags as having come through the system, not 111. Is this evidence against the printout's accuracy? My notion of adding one item and otherwise leaving it as accurate as possible doesn't account for this.

Either investigators never came for the crucial evidence before its normal deletion, or it was deleted too early. THAT is why the printout wound up being the only and much-delayed record of the movements of the key bag. I suspect the printout lost NO corroboration in this early deletion. How early? According to this last snippet I'll share, the BKA had eight days to act under normal circumstances. Should have taken one or less.

Quoting John Merritt, The Observer, 17 November 1991:
Quote:
A major breakthrough in the hunt for the Lockerbie bombers came to light only because of the quick thinking of a conscientious computer operator at Frankfurt airport.
The vital computer evidence, proving conclusively [] that the bag from Malta, identified as Item B8849, was on board as the airliner was blasted apart on the last stage of its journey from Heathrow to New York would have been lost forever [why isn't that the story?] if the woman operator had not kept her own record.
Acting on her own initiative, the woman, an employee of the Frankfurt Airport Company, who for legal reasons cannot be named, was working at the computer system known as KIK on the day of the disaster. She knew records relating to baggage loaded on to flights were kept in the system for only a limited time [eight days] before being wiped. So when she returned to work the next day she made her own print-out of the information and placed it in her locker before going on holiday.
On her return, weeks later, she was surprised to learn that no one had shown any interest in the computer records [I would be surprised too, if this actually happened]. She passed the print-out to her baggage section leader who gave it to investigators from the West German Bundeskriminalamt. But it was not until mid-August, eight months after the bombing, that the German authorities turned over this information to Scottish police in charge of the investigation.
The woman employee's role became known only last week when lawyers for families of the American victims took evidence from her in Germany. She had kept her own copy of the print-out and still had it in her locker.
It's slightly interesting that the woman employee's name was still kept secret in 92 or whenever exactly this was written. Francovich had apparently seen it in print, but not heard it pronounced (air-ats or air-atch), before finishing up his movie in '94. She wasn't known of publicly at all, by this, until the time of the indictment.

Still shady. I really like this link to work over for cracks. It seems less well-covered.
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Old 7th November 2009, 06:09 PM   #125
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Given the nature of his activities at the time, in one of in the murky world of espionage, Coleman is obviously a difficult character to align with completely, and thus feel at ease with his version of events. You must wonder, in a life so entrenched in the field of intelligence, the distinction and boundaries of what is fact and fiction can surely become blurred and rendered almost incoherent of each other? As I said, a murky world involving many dubious individuals. As Coleman himself admits, "spies are not encouraged to keep diaries, send memos or make carbon copies of reports. If they attract suspicion, 'deniability' is their only hope."

I would also add this would no doubt prove even more troublesome and dangerous when involving clandestine missions that are disturbed, or worse, uncovered. As Goddard states in the foreword of Trail, "If a spy is cut off by his own country, deniability can work like a hangmans noose. With no written record to call on and no access to official files, he must rely for the most part on memory to defend himself, so that, in the end, it usually comes down to his word against his government's. This can give rise to questions of credibility....with most people disposed to give those in authority the benefit of the doubt, why should anyone believe him?"

However, the crucial points which I feel are always worthy of consideration when assessing any credibility :

1. What was their position when allegations are first made? : 2. is there a pattern, together with substantive plausibility or a divergence of allegations? : and 3. individually what was gained?
  • 1. Coleman claims he appeared on NBC 'Nightly News' on Dec 22 1988 to discuss the PanAm disaster. This appears to be a claim which is supported in various articles (aside from the references in 'Trail..'), and although I myself can't remember when or where, I am sure, in the distant past I have seen the actual footage of that NBC interview. It is also a claim that has never been refuted. Indeed, Coleman according to his own cv, has worked at some point for quite a few of America's top broadcasters: RKO as their White House correspondent in 1979 and both CBS News and ABC News during the early 1980's. In the course of these jobs, many involving work in the Middle East, and IIRC from Trail, this was interspersed with contracts of various kinds for the US intelligence agencies. This would appear to reveal that Coleman was fairly well respected within his primary field, confirmed with his appearance on CBS although this was not at the time given to any association he had around the attack on 103 other than those suspected were of Middle East origin, and Coleman was considered something of an expert in this area.
  • 2. Coleman's assertions appear to remained consistent throughout. What he first claimed in his affidavit in the PanAm case in 1991, which seemed to corroborate the Interfor investigation by Aviv, he followed-up and went into further detail with his book written with very well respected former New York Times editor, Donald Goddard, Trail of the Octopus in 1994. The Francovich film, The Maltese Double Cross, with input and interviews with Coleman, again reaffirmed the basic allegations he made in 1991. In the Afterword of Trail of the Octopus, it begins “On 22 September 1993, five day before hardback publication of [the book], Christopher Byron telephoned Bloomsbury Publishing to ask if they had heard that a Federal Grand Jury had just indicted Lester Coleman on eight counts of perjury.” When you also then consider the (successful) threats made against any showing of the Maltese Double Cross, it begs the question, if these were simply spurious theories spouted by a few nutjobs and oddballs, why such a concerted effort to silence them?
  • 3. It is somewhat strange that at no point have the Scottish Police, nor any other investigator, interviewed Coleman with regards to his claims about the PanAm bombing. However, given what we know of evidence that was not presented at the trial, the litany of what appear crucial witnesses who were not called to give their own evidence at the trial and the perplexing leaps of logic performed by the judges, the absence of people with the claims of Coleman is not surprising. As for Coleman, what has he gained? Notoriety? Well, that could certainly be something he may well have gained with some of 103's victims families and some observers of the disaster. Without doubt with both government's of the UK and US, and it would seem the Scottish Police. Has he benefited financially? It would seem not. The book, AFAIK, was withdrawn, and still to this day what copies were initially sold are extremely scarce. It seems it one thing to make wild accusations about a Government, it is another thing altogether to persist with them when you've been accused of perjury, forced to seek asylum, results in actual financial hardship, imprisonment and severe illness. This does not only have direct effects on yourself, but your whole family. Apparently he remains “the only person in US legal history to be charged with perjury over an affidavit filed in a civil case”.

My instinct is akin to Jime Swire who "was disturbed at how the US authorities were treating Coleman. Swire wrote: 'The gross maltreatment of Coleman by the American authorities appears to fit a pattern of victimisation of people who challenge the official version that Libya was solely to blame for Lockerbie."

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Old 7th November 2009, 06:26 PM   #126
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Okay, I've managed to track down the US court of appeals second circuit (Part of docket 92-9251) the original PanAm v US court judgement.

A few snippets that are worth picking out:

Quote:
Although bags transferred from other flights to Flight 103 in Frankfurt were x-rayed, plaintiffs asserted the airline's x-ray procedure violated security requirements contained in an FAA regulation at issue in this case, Air Carrier Standard Security Program or ACSSP XV.C.1. (a), which ensured that bags matched passengers and that any unaccompanied bags be physically inspected. Pan Am unsuccessfully argued to the jury that its actions did not amount to wilful misconduct, and that it was impossible to determine how the bomb was planted on Flight 103. To meet plaintiffs' claims of wilful misconduct, Pan Am and Alert emphasized that the transferred bags had been examined using x-ray equipment, but that no bomb was discovered. They challenged plaintiffs' theory of causation and suggested that even if there were any misconduct on their part, it did not lead to the crash.
So, even then (not to mention nearly another 9 years of investigation) the ingestion of a bomb bag at Frankfurt and then maneuver it's way around the security system, let alone an unaccompanied bag from KM180, has not been established.

Quote:
The trial judge reasoned that even if the Air Malta theory did not explain the bomb's presence on Flight 103, other pervasive and extensive wilful misconduct by defendants must have accounted for the bomb's presence.
Jeez....are these the same judges who sat at Zeist?

Quote:
The jury had to content itself with the expounding by plaintiffs' "experts" of what my colleagues correctly term "Plaintiffs' Causation Theory" (Majority opinion at 824). The accuracy of the supposition that a suitcase carrying the bomb was sent unaccompanied from Malta to Frankfurt, was transferred there to a Pan Am plane in which it was flown to London, where it was transferred to the plane in which it subsequently exploded, was a crucial issue in the case, because "Plaintiffs' Causation Theory" was based upon Pan Am's allegedly deficient baggage checks during the two transfers. If there were no transfers, there could not have been any wilfully deficient screenings. The district court permitted plaintiffs' experts to testify in support of the supposition but precluded any testimony by defendant's experts in opposition thereto. Having reviewed this proposed testimony of Pan Am's experts that the district court kept from the jury, I am convinced that had the jury been permitted to hear this evidence, there is a strong likelihood it would have rejected plaintiffs' contention that the bomb which exploded began its deadly journey in Malta.
Quote:
The following testimony of Dr. Ariel Merari of Tel Aviv University, an expert on terrorism and bombing, also would have shed unfavorable light on the Malta-origin "theory." However, this testimony was kept from the jury.

258
Q. Do you think, sir, that it is conjectural how the bomb got on board?

259
A. Could you please rephrase the question.

260
Q. Do you know how the bomb got on board?

261
A. No, I don't.

262
Q. Do you think any, based upon the readings you have done in this record, a fair-minded, honest, so-called expert, with a reasonable degree of professional certainty, could opine how the bomb got on board?

263
. . . . .A. Well, of what I have read, including the trial transcripts, I cannot see how anybody can say with any degree of certainty how the bomb got on board.

264
Q. Do you have any level of familiarity with what our government has been saying with respect to the indictments of two Libyans?

265
A. Yes, I do.

266
Q. And have you had, to the extent you can discuss this in this forum, a conversation with any representatives of security or secret services of any governments on that subject?

267
A. Yes.

268
Q. Has whatever knowledge that has come to you through those discussions in any way changed your view that an honest and reasonable chap cannot say to a reasonable degree of professional certainty how this bomb got on board?

269
A. No. I still feel that I don't know how the bomb got on board and I don't think that at this particular stage, before more intelligence information comes in, which may be a long time after the incident, in some cases, I still feel that I don't know how the bomb got on board and I don't think anybody knows for sure or even in any degree of reasonable certainty how the bomb got on board at this time, except for the terrorists, of course.

270
Tr. 6259-60.

271
Q. Is it possible that a bomb was smuggled on board Pan Am 103 by an unwitting courier?

272
A. I think it is.

273
Q. Has that possibility been widely discussed secretly in the intelligence community?

274
A. Yes, it has.
I don't think any of this evidence (although obviously not presented during the PanAm case) was ever mentioned, far less presented at Zeist!

Link to full document :http://openjurist.org/37/f3d/804
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Old 8th November 2009, 01:36 AM   #127
Caustic Logic
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Originally Posted by Buncrana View Post
Given the nature of his activities at the time, in one of in the murky world of espionage, Coleman is obviously a difficult character to align with completely, and thus feel at ease with his version of events.
It's a feeling I for one am used to, so not too troubling.

Quote:
  • 1. Coleman claims he appeared on NBC 'Nightly News' on Dec 22 1988 to discuss the PanAm disaster. This appears to be a claim which is supported in various articles (aside from the references in 'Trail..'), and although I myself can't remember when or where, I am sure, in the distant past I have seen the actual footage of that NBC interview. It is also a claim that has never been refuted. Indeed, Coleman according to his own cv, has worked at some point for quite a few of America's top broadcasters: RKO as their White House correspondent in 1979 and both CBS News and ABC News during the early 1980's. In the course of these jobs, many involving work in the Middle East, and IIRC from Trail, this was interspersed with contracts of various kinds for the US intelligence agencies. This would appear to reveal that Coleman was fairly well respected within his primary field, confirmed with his appearance on CBS although this was not at the time given to any association he had around the attack on 103 other than those suspected were of Middle East origin, and Coleman was considered something of an expert in this area.
I was surprised to learn he was a media consultant back in the day, which puts him in a shady spot between intel and public relations that makes his intel-informed public pronouncements more dubious. I found some info here,
in Micheal Hurley's book I Solemnly Swear, pp 326/27 (Google Books link)

His rendition of the Hershow/Coleman story is about as I just read it in Coleman's book - he was unaware of any shady characters aboard, until Hershow sent him a picture of Jafaar, whom he recognized as a DEA "mule" killed on 103, which got him thinking... It doesn'tsound right, Hershow denies this, Hurley points out all Coleman had to do was read the papers to know Jafaar was in there. Hurley denied Jafaar was ever DEA connected, and Interestingly, mentions there were protected drug operations in the past, but these did not require baggage handlers to be in on it. Rather, "the bags were escorted through security" by agents who made sure they weren't searched. So this would not contribute to a Lockerbie type breach, and was not happening anyway in December 88.

Now I don't just up and believe this guy either, especially knowing so little all-around, but multiple views need to be considered. Also, according to these pages, Coleman's first thoughts expressed on NBC news was that Libya might be responsible since they had Semtex.

Quote:
  • 2. Coleman's assertions appear to remained consistent throughout. What he first claimed in his affidavit in the PanAm case in 1991, which seemed to corroborate the Interfor investigation by Aviv, he followed-up and went into further detail with his book written with very well respected former New York Times editor, Donald Goddard, Trail of the Octopus in 1994. The Francovich film, The Maltese Double Cross, with input and interviews with Coleman, again reaffirmed the basic allegations he made in 1991. In the Afterword of Trail of the Octopus, it begins “On 22 September 1993, five day before hardback publication of [the book], Christopher Byron telephoned Bloomsbury Publishing to ask if they had heard that a Federal Grand Jury had just indicted Lester Coleman on eight counts of perjury.” When you also then consider the (successful) threats made against any showing of the Maltese Double Cross, it begs the question, if these were simply spurious theories spouted by a few nutjobs and oddballs, why such a concerted effort to silence them?
I highly doubt these were simple responses to fraud - their activism on the Lockerbie case has to be connected one way or another, IMO. I suppose it could be called "aggravated fraud" and pursued more since the allegations are so far-reaching. Alos I've wondered before about disinfo/discredit operations - they don't necessarily mean the victim is "on to something." Wrong but dangerously plausible ideas could also be targeted, but this can actually increase their profile, which would also help out to promote disinfo by appearing to attack it, and so on with the reverse logic revolving door. In Coleman's case they went through proper legal channels and seem to have won. Could be some verifiably wrong info, sound basis for fraud ruling, and it still doesn't necc. cancel out the correct parts (whatever those are).

Quote:
  • 3. <snip>As for Coleman, what has he gained? Notoriety? Well, that could certainly be something he may well have gained with some of 103's victims families and some observers of the disaster. Without doubt with both government's of the UK and US, and it would seem the Scottish Police. Has he benefited financially? It would seem not. The book, AFAIK, was withdrawn, and still to this day what copies were initially sold are extremely scarce. It seems it one thing to make wild accusations about a Government, it is another thing altogether to persist with them when you've been accused of perjury, forced to seek asylum, results in actual financial hardship, imprisonment and severe illness. This does not only have direct effects on yourself, but your whole family. Apparently he remains “the only person in US legal history to be charged with perjury over an affidavit filed in a civil case”.
On that last line - really? If this is true someone whould demonstrate it for emphasis. And in case you didn't know, Trail of the Octopus has now been published in the U.S., by BookSurge (Amazon affiliated) in August.
http://www.amazon.com/Trail-Octopus-.../dp/1439237808
No used copies yet. Has the test been revised to reflect the rulings? Did he found a way to get the info out without directly profiting? Because something in there, apparently, got him tossed in jail. Then again, something got Megrahi locked up too.

Quote:
My instinct is akin to Jime Swire who "was disturbed at how the US authorities were treating Coleman. Swire wrote: 'The gross maltreatment of Coleman by the American authorities appears to fit a pattern of victimisation of people who challenge the official version that Libya was solely to blame for Lockerbie."
And it could well be, I just don't know. Maybe I'll stick to my guns with the "don't trust Coleman too much" line, just for the dynamics. But for the issues at hand, the records at Frankfurt and evidence for an unaccompanied bag from Malta, he's well represented and helps show what everything else does anyway - there's nothing great to override Air Malta's strong evidence against - just the printout of which he's duly suspicious without claiming some ridiculous insider proof of its forgery. Whatever, wherever else, +1 for Coleman here.

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Old 8th November 2009, 04:25 PM   #128
Buncrana
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Originally Posted by Caustic Logic View Post
I was surprised to learn he was a media consultant back in the day, which puts him in a shady spot between intel and public relations that makes his intel-informed public pronouncements more dubious. I found some info here,
in Micheal Hurley's book I Solemnly Swear, pp 326/27 (Google Books link)

His rendition of the Hershow/Coleman story is about as I just read it in Coleman's book - he was unaware of any shady characters aboard, until Hershow sent him a picture of Jafaar, whom he recognized as a DEA "mule" killed on 103, which got him thinking... It doesn'tsound right, Hershow denies this, Hurley points out all Coleman had to do was read the papers to know Jafaar was in there. Hurley denied Jafaar was ever DEA connected, and Interestingly, mentions there were protected drug operations in the past, but these did not require baggage handlers to be in on it. Rather, "the bags were escorted through security" by agents who made sure they weren't searched. So this would not contribute to a Lockerbie type breach, and was not happening anyway in December 88.

Now I don't just up and believe this guy either, especially knowing so little all-around, but multiple views need to be considered. Also, according to these pages, Coleman's first thoughts expressed on NBC news was that Libya might be responsible since they had Semtex.
I share your wariness in regrads to Coleman's possible experience and knowledge on manipulation of media entwined with his work. Hurley is also of dubious character and clearly has good reason to see Coleman cast as some kind of fantasist.

I've found a few other details of Hurley's apparent many faces, here : http://www.blythe.org/Intelligence/readme/lockerbie. Further confirming the 'controlled drugs delivery' that was active during the 1980's including '88, and interestingly, originating at Cyprus. There is also reference in here as to why Jaafar, possible operating as an asset, was also chosen as the courier with who's bag would be substituted with the bomb.


Originally Posted by Caustic Logic View Post
I highly doubt these were simple responses to fraud - their activism on the Lockerbie case has to be connected one way or another, IMO. I suppose it could be called "aggravated fraud" and pursued more since the allegations are so far-reaching. Alos I've wondered before about disinfo/discredit operations - they don't necessarily mean the victim is "on to something." Wrong but dangerously plausible ideas could also be targeted, but this can actually increase their profile, which would also help out to promote disinfo by appearing to attack it, and so on with the reverse logic revolving door. In Coleman's case they went through proper legal channels and seem to have won. Could be some verifiably wrong info, sound basis for fraud ruling, and it still doesn't necc. cancel out the correct parts (whatever those are).
Again, I can't confirm the veracity of these sites and their sources, but here is an article written on Coleman's escapade on returning from Sweden : http://plane-truth.com/Aoude/geocities/censorship.html.

Quote:
On that last line - really? If this is true someone whould demonstrate it for emphasis. And in case you didn't know, Trail of the Octopus has now been published in the U.S., by BookSurge (Amazon affiliated) in August.
http://www.amazon.com/Trail-Octopus-.../dp/1439237808
No used copies yet. Has the test been revised to reflect the rulings? Did he found a way to get the info out without directly profiting? Because something in there, apparently, got him tossed in jail. Then again, something got Megrahi locked up too.
Hmmmm...I'm just noticing that the copy now available on Amazon is a 1/3 shorter than the copy I have! If I get the time I'll try and pick-up on which areas have clearly been excluded, and which would suggest either he has had to remove certain aspects by order of a court, he has chosen to do so for fear of further legal actions, or has simply changed his mind or determined in had no bearing.


Quote:
And it could well be, I just don't know. Maybe I'll stick to my guns with the "don't trust Coleman too much" line, just for the dynamics. But for the issues at hand, the records at Frankfurt and evidence for an unaccompanied bag from Malta, he's well represented and helps show what everything else does anyway - there's nothing great to override Air Malta's strong evidence against - just the printout of which he's duly suspicious without claiming some ridiculous insider proof of its forgery. Whatever, wherever else, +1 for Coleman here.
I agree. Despite all the reservation you could quite reasonably have about Coleman, he does appear to present a distinctly more plausible scenario, backed up by much of what we now know of aspects regarding Malta, Frankfurt and Heathrow, and what evidence was lost, undisclosed and never presented.

I'm not sure whether we're also drifting slightly of course in regards to the OP, and whether or not we have conclusively (as best we possibly can) answered the question?..There really could be a whole thread on Coleman et al?
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Old 9th November 2009, 03:03 AM   #129
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Sorry, been doing some of that Real Life stuff.

I've been wondering about whether we need a few new threads, but unsure which ones to start. Maybe we need one about Frankfurt airport itself, unrelated to the KM180 flight?

There are enough separate aspects to this for its own subforum, if only more people were interested!

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Old 9th November 2009, 05:43 AM   #130
Caustic Logic
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
Sorry, been doing some of that Real Life stuff.
You're a horse? I thought you was a cat. ?? I've actually been working offline on a video putting together the points and evidence in this thread. The current version may not be postable, not sure what I can and can't, and it's too long yet. But it's good practice.

Quote:
I've been wondering about whether we need a few new threads, but unsure which ones to start. Maybe we need one about Frankfurt airport itself, unrelated to the KM180 flight?
The Heathrow stuff, sources, support, details, hacksaw, suitcase, 38 minutes, and the rest. That's my suggestion. We both agree it's the most likely true scenario and kills the official story, would be nice to spell it out for the sheeple. Not that I'm 'putting anything on you,' or anyone, but hey...

Quote:
There are enough separate aspects to this for its own subforum, if only more people were interested!
Since the whole forum is involved, by default at least actively non-involved, one could say (in a non-binding non-provoking of mod wrath way) that the JREF forum take on the Lockerbie conspiracy theories is what's emerged in these three threads: A cover-up and frame-up did indeed occur, at a huge level, and has been effectively perpetuated between governments and parties, with a compliant media, etc. It's not all secret of course or universally perpetuated, or these discussions wouldn't exist. But still, this is a huge blow to the cause of those who view this forum as place to deconstruct popular conspiracy theories and put paranoia in its place. Rationality and paranoia meet on the same ground? How can it be? Is the fabric of the universe unraveling?

poke, poke

There's counter-points to be made, we're making them ourselves, folks. How about from someone who actually believes the official story or can more easily fake it? This or other threads, let's see five new voices speak up - is their unanimity yet or is the issue of al Megrahi's guilt still debated here?

Last edited by Caustic Logic; 9th November 2009 at 05:46 AM. Reason: clarity
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Old 9th November 2009, 10:00 AM   #131
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The idea I was toying with was a set of factual essays, covering each of the salient aspects of the case. Stating what is actually known and can be attested to regarding each point, with links to the evidence where it can be found. We've barely started though, when I think about the number of points that could be covered - we probably need a thread for each point.

Gauci and the mystery shopper
The warnings - how many, how precise, and how reliable (to include Botha and Carlsson)
Luqa airport and KM180
Frankfurt, the disappearing records, and the Aviv/Shaughnessy/Coleman allegations
Heathrow, the break-in and the Bedford suitcase
The timing of the take-off and the explosion, and how this relates to the place of the explosion
The CIA and related US personnel on board
Jafaar and his antecedents
Shenanigans on the ground - the disappearing body, the white helicopter and the suitcase of heroin
The evidence for the "brown Samsonite suitcase on the second layer of luggage container AVE4041" hypothesis
The provenance of that damn MST-13 fragment (including Bollier's statements)
Jibril, Dalkamoni, Khreesat, Talb and their little friends from the PFLP-GC
Giaka and the allegations against Megrahi and Fhimah
Alleged attempts to silence whistle-blowers
Libya, the sanctions and the compensation payments
The Camp Zeist trial and appeal, and Hans Kochler's reports
The SCCRC report and Megrahi's subsequent documentation

Then we could also list the postulated hypotheses

Megrahi/Fhimah at Luqa
Jibril/Khreesat at Heathrow
Ditto at Frankfurt, with or without substitution of Jafaar's suitcase
Wrong plane - bag supposed to go on a direct flight that really was far out over the Atlantic at 7pm GMT
VHF radio signal from ATC set off munitions being illegally transported
LIHOP (non-specific) semi-accidental, related to release of CIA asset Khreesat
LIHOP (specific), sacrificing a plane to assuage Iran's need for revenge for the Airbus
Plane itself sabotaged (not via luggage)

And I'm sure there are more.

Everybody publishing on this thing has their own pet theory to push, and bends the evidence to fit the theory. The world needs a relatively unbiassed look at the evidence, what it really is, and the pros and cons of each of the theories.

Might be fun to make a start anyway, and the great thing about the internet is that it could be amended if points were clarified or disproved.

Rolfe.
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Old 9th November 2009, 02:55 PM   #132
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
T
Might be fun to make a start anyway, and the great thing about the internet is that it could be amended if points were clarified or disproved.

Rolfe.
Somehow "fun" wasn't the word that popped up for me. I'm actually toying on and off with burnout on the whole issue, but nah, I'm still here. Now, we'd need a staff of probably ten at least to fill and manage these... okay you're talking essays, not threads, so that's more manageable - onetime discussion solidified and simmered. But still, that's a big list. I can offer, like, 1/2 person, maybe 2 essays-worth, depending if I get can't get a second job in this economy like I'm trying.

Here's what we need - a team website we and others can contribute material to. Submitted, approved, organized, collaborations, internal and external links, file hosting/downloads... Meant to suggest that before, as my little blog abilities aren't keeping up too well on an issue people are actually interested in now. We're like investigators ourselves, minus the going out and finding new clues part, and we're just regular citizens, so maybe we should call ourselves Citizen Investgation Team. No, that's got a bad ring somehow. Well, one step at a time.
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Old 9th November 2009, 03:42 PM   #133
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Hey, it's been nearly 21 years! There's an advantage to coming to this late, because it's easier to take a long view. But the other advantage is, really, where's the hurry?

I just thought, start the threads, one at a time, when we seem to get to the subject, and hopefully when we've got as far as we can with the live ones. We've gone quite a long way both on the timer fragment and on the Malta/Frankfurt thing. All it really needs is an overview of what the relevant threads have discovered and concluded (if anything).

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Old 9th November 2009, 07:01 PM   #134
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I think Gauci could be another very informative thread. It also completes the three critical areas of the whole case against Megrahi. The others, the fragment and the introduction of the suitcase at Luqa, have been extensively examined. The former remians on-going and the latter we appeared to have reached an outcome where we cannot show any convincing way the suitcase could have been introduced at Malta, and even accepting the bag coded at Frankfurt, there is no evidence it arrived with absolute certainty from KM180.

With Gauci, we could consider and hopefully examine further the dates of purchase, the weather, the actual clothing, the identification(s), the alleged payments, his statements, Talb...etc

This is not to say any number of the areas Rolfe has outlined could be, I think, explored much more extensively as the other contentious areas of the prosecution case have been.
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Old 9th November 2009, 07:45 PM   #135
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A BBS thread is great for discussion but doesn't really separate the cream from the chaff.

What's we need is a place where all the parts can be spread out with a separate page devoted to each person, place or object and full hyperlinking between them and index pages, key word searches and categories to assist searching for the key bits. This is a collaborative effort so that of course must also be supported.

I think a wiki would make a good platform for this task. Wikis don't have to be encyclopedias. I created one at work for system documentation and started one in a user group for user editable reference pages.

I've asked in the past about creating a skeptics wiki for general documentation and skeptical research but they seem more interested in having a baby wikipedia here. If one of you already have a hosting plan that can run a wiki, you could create it there. Otherwise, I could look into getting my own hosting plan and start another private wiki. The biggest drawback is that I would need help picking a name for it.
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Old 10th November 2009, 05:41 AM   #136
Caustic Logic
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Originally Posted by Dan O. View Post
A BBS thread is great for discussion but doesn't really separate the cream from the chaff.
I don't mean to burst your parade, but mixed metaphors tun me on! Ummm... kidding. What's BBS? One of these? Agreed, we've seen how these can ramble on into sidetracks and excessive indecisive nerdiness. The high points are in there, somewhere...

Quote:
What's we need is a place where all the parts can be spread out with a separate page devoted to each person, place or object and full hyperlinking between them and index pages, key word searches and categories to assist searching for the key bits. This is a collaborative effort so that of course must also be supported.
That sounds a lot like what I was thinking. A full website resource thing, at least as much as can be done to that end. I can't guarantee tons of work myself, but would be willing to try for a lot, and be a reliable core person.

Quote:
I think a wiki would make a good platform for this task. Wikis don't have to be encyclopedias. I created one at work for system documentation and started one in a user group for user editable reference pages.

I've asked in the past about creating a skeptics wiki for general documentation and skeptical research but they seem more interested in having a baby wikipedia here. If one of you already have a hosting plan that can run a wiki, you could create it there. Otherwise, I could look into getting my own hosting plan and start another private wiki.
I've got the blogspot thing down, and it's got some possibilities. Wikis I know not, but I'm sure they're better.

I'd like to invite (can I do that?) involvement from the same skeptics who haven't been arguing back yet, if there becomes something to be involved with. Different views going on would be great, to create a balanced product. Not that we're imbalanced, just appear that way to perhaps most people. It would be good to have some genuine points FOR the official story. Just not more than is warranted. Maybe a little more, just to be over-fair.

And also all the people who've been involved repeatedly in these threads: Rolfe, GlennB, myself, Ambrosia, Realdon, Dan O., and Buncrana, any I forgot, to consider the idea.

Quote:
The biggest drawback is that I would need help picking a name for it.
Phhhh... That's the fun part, you goon. How many books, and clubs, and bands I made up names for but never followed up on? Oh, it's lots. The team should vote on a nice list of possibilities. Sorry I'm being all nerdy talking about a team already. But if there is one, I'm on it.
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Old 10th November 2009, 05:48 AM   #137
Caustic Logic
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Originally Posted by Buncrana View Post
I think Gauci could be another very informative thread. It also completes the three critical areas of the whole case against Megrahi. The others, the fragment and the introduction of the suitcase at Luqa, have been extensively examined. The former remians on-going and the latter we appeared to have reached an outcome where we cannot show any convincing way the suitcase could have been introduced at Malta, and even accepting the bag coded at Frankfurt, there is no evidence it arrived with absolute certainty from KM180.

With Gauci, we could consider and hopefully examine further the dates of purchase, the weather, the actual clothing, the identification(s), the alleged payments, his statements, Talb...etc

This is not to say any number of the areas Rolfe has outlined could be, I think, explored much more extensively as the other contentious areas of the prosecution case have been.
The Gauci link is quite fertile to explore. I've studies eyewitness controversies before, tho, and found them quite slippery and hard to say what's really going on - memory fog vs. different phrasing vs. lies and so on... It gets subjective.

Heathrow and/or Gauci. And for that matter, exploring the Giaka threat, from the earlier ominous hints to his epic destruction in court, would be fun. Don't forget, they had indicted and planned their prosecution case around FOUR main pillars, not three. This one they KNEW was bogus and presented as true glue anyway, and probably should have got a mistrial or something. That's darn instructive.
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Old 10th November 2009, 06:52 AM   #138
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I have a domain on UKservers, but I have no clue how wikis work or how to set up or maintain one. I'd happily donate the facilities though.

Damn, it's a good idea!

Rolfe.
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Old 11th November 2009, 10:59 AM   #139
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I looked at UKservers and they do have TikiWiki and PhpWiki. Their policies prohibit hosting videos and MP3s which we could probably live with. Can't find anything about setting up the wiki. It may be a cpannel thing that you just click and it's there. I haven't got a clue what our bandwidth and disk usage will be. Probably pretty minimal at first but could skyrocket at any moment if we get slashdot'ed.

I may be able to piggyback on the hosting plan that my club uses at DreamHost. They recently upgraded all hosting plans to "unlimited everything" so there won't be any resource limitations. A downside there is in order to use SSL you need to pay extra for a private IP address which the club doesn't have. DreamHost uses MediaWiki.
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Old 11th November 2009, 06:44 PM   #140
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I am not a tech nerd, and know not what approach to take here. It's worth money to pay, for reliability, flexibility, support. So long as it's not much I can pitch in. Like $20 or something for year one. Whatever format if its readable, hosts graphics, PDFs for download if possible (our own essays and reference documents), I'd like to be a member with password access to add things at 4am. Regular discussions, collaboration, ironing out differences, appending opinions and dissenting comments... I dunno, is that too nerdy?

For names, one struck me - Third Decade, or something to that effect, in there. We've just missed the 20th anniversary, so looking at it as the longer-view 20-30 year after range gives it context and gives us, if we and our descendants want, another nine years before the name goes bad.

Twin goals - change the public discourse on the current conviction and storyline. Megrahi will surely die a guilty man in the eyes of the law, but needn't stay that way for long. And, to the extent possible, work towards determining what did happen and what to do about it. These obviously go beyond a website, but there are two-way streets between 3-D activism and info, who knows who'll take them.

And I think we're a little off-topic now. Lol.
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Old 11th November 2009, 07:23 PM   #141
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This sidetrack isn't likely to derail the thread for long as we'll probably have something up in a few days.

Since the wiki allows any page to be edited by any user at any time, it's probably best to limit the wiki to the facts and the references backing them up and leave the personal theories to the users own blogs. We'll be pushing into CT realms so it will be best to require logins for edit access and screen users to those the have similar goals of finding what really happened (or at least documenting what is known) over pushing a pet theory.

Some legalities need to be considered concerning documents. If the site is private we'll fly under the radar for copyright issues but should still try to stay legal. Documents should be referenced to the source anyhow and the act of seeking permission to archive documents on the site may open the channel to other similar documents.
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Old 12th November 2009, 12:21 AM   #142
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Originally Posted by Dan O. View Post
This sidetrack isn't likely to derail the thread for long as we'll probably have something up in a few days.
Something's certainly better than nothing. What you're describing is basically a reference site to gather the available evidence. That would be useful, but more of a service for further action. I'd like to see something more open to speculation, tentative conclusions, statements of informed opinion, and especially external activism to raise awareness and pressure in the 3-D world. As well as pulling together existing info. Essentially, I'd like to help start up the independent inquiry that governments find "inappropriate." With no subpoena power, no legal authority, part-tiime unpaid staff just doing what they can, etc., but with the advantages of being open, transparent, flexible. If anyone else (a few people) are interested, I'd like to look at the options there fairly soon. Unless someone talks me down on it. It is a bit lofty and I'm not always the best at following through...

Quote:
Since the wiki allows any page to be edited by any user at any time, it's probably best to limit the wiki to the facts and the references backing them up and leave the personal theories to the users own blogs.
That's true, that is what a wiki is, huh? So long as there isn't a Lockerbie case wiki yet, and we're not reinventng the wheel, it would be a good idea. Not requiring special priveleges to post opens it up to get filled quicker, so long as we can edit out the BS. I'd hate to see presentation of, say, the Lumpert affidavit, without some indication of how stupid that story is.

Quote:
We'll be pushing into CT realms so it will be best to require logins for edit access and screen users to those the have similar goals of finding what really happened (or at least documenting what is known) over pushing a pet theory.
There's a place for both, IMO. But it's good to know what to do where and why.

Quote:
Some legalities need to be considered concerning documents. If the site is private we'll fly under the radar for copyright issues but should still try to stay legal. Documents should be referenced to the source anyhow and the act of seeking permission to archive documents on the site may open the channel to other similar documents.
I hadn't even thought of that. I suppose it'll be a document-by-document decision. By private you mean, only viewable by registered people? That sound sound lame. What's the story with old media reports? I was thinking of taking a trip to the library for new stories 1988-whenever, to add stuff that's not online already.
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Old 12th November 2009, 05:00 AM   #143
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Originally Posted by Caustic Logic View Post
That's true, that is what a wiki is, huh? So long as there isn't a Lockerbie case wiki yet, and we're not reinventng the wheel, it would be a good idea. Not requiring special priveleges to post opens it up to get filled quicker, so long as we can edit out the BS. I'd hate to see presentation of, say, the Lumpert affidavit, without some indication of how stupid that story is.
If you open a wiki to the public too soon it will get attacked by vandals and the few users will have to spend all their time cleaning up the mess. We'll start with an invitation only membership to get a framework in place and establish the rules for the site. Then we may open part of the site for public viewing and membership requests. Once we have a large enough membership base for self monitoring we can open it for automatic enrollment. But I don't envision the site getting that large unless we expand the scope.


Quote:
I hadn't even thought of that. I suppose it'll be a document-by-document decision. By private you mean, only viewable by registered people? That sound sound lame. What's the story with old media reports? I was thinking of taking a trip to the library for new stories 1988-whenever, to add stuff that's not online already.
We would be asking for big trouble if we republished a massive collection of copyrighted articles. Keeping a private cache for research purposes should be fine. Copyrights can last for 75 years and anything published in a newspaper is going to have some copyright applied.
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Old 12th November 2009, 07:23 AM   #144
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By the way, there are two outfits both called "UK servers". Mine is the one also going by the name "virtualnames". I'm not sure which one you looked at. My bunch are very low-cost because I don't do anything fancy, so they may not support so much.

I would have thought that some pages could be dedicated to the evidence for or against specific theories. And that some sections of pages might actually cover speculation, as long as it's clearly separated from the factual content.

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Old 12th November 2009, 05:10 PM   #145
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I haven't looked very closely at the "Masonic Verses" thing, but the author is posting on Roert Black's blog ("Baz"), but it might be worth a closer look as he seems to have studied the evidence quite closely.

http://e-zeecon.blogspot.com

He's a bit of a MIHOPer I think, though.

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Old 13th November 2009, 03:18 PM   #146
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"get taggs"

Scotland Against Crooked Lawyers. http://www.sacl.info/Lockerbie.htm
Quote:
Professor Robert Black QC is highly critical of the judges for accepting Gauci's testimony. He is somewhat less outspoken when it comes to other evidence pointing towards Megrahi's guilt - such as Al Fhima's diary entries about "airline tags" (ruled inadmissible - but of interest to truth seekers everywhere)
Hmmm, that is interesting, why would he get all quiet about those taggs, clearly readable to English-reading eyes - suspicious investigators and indignancy-prone public. They were getting tags to put the bomb on 103. Right there, in English, tags. Black surely knows there's at least as good a case this was just instructions for an Libyan Arab Airlines employee to get more LAA tags printed with an apparently English-speaking Printer on Malta. Unless SACL looked closer than BBC Dispatches here (about 40% in) or 60 Minutes' Ed Bradley here (about 80% in). I admit I haven't examined the diary myself for all context clues, but this is an important clue to get right, as it stood as an original proof of the Megrahi/Fhimah partnership to circumvent Luqa's security. All the pieces of that fell apart, stripping off an accomplice and making Megrahi's conviction that much more bizarre. They HAD previously been wrongly glued together, and this is one sample of that glue at work. Giaka was the overflowing vat of adhesives, of course. This is just a dab of another make patted on at the right spot.
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Old 13th November 2009, 04:30 PM   #147
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Hmmm, where did you find that? Their website designer should be taken out and shot for a start. I'd rather read Bollier's!

It's an odd summation of the evidence. They urge the reader to read the court judgement - but that's one of the strongest documents suggesting the conclusion to be flawed. Looks kinda official, doesn't it, despite the cock-eyed layout. But who are these people? The title is a dead giveaway - disgruntled litigants.

Quote:
Made up of people from all walks of society, we have all, at one time or another, been victims of deep-rooted corruption in the legal profession.

Although all our cases are dissimilar, a vicious underlying theme pervades throughout, and that theme is the complete lack of redress from a self-regulated, hence corrupt, legal profession that has denied us any justice. Its legal mechanics have picked our pockets and then laughed in our faces for the privilege. It was these harrowing circumstances that united us in common purpose.

There is a similar pattern with many of them that illustrates a ready-made plan of action, or defence, by crooked lawyers to pre-empt exoneration for their crimes - with no little help from their fellow conspirators in the Law Society, the Faculty of Advocates, the Crown Office and the judiciary.

Having been forced into the corridors of depravity in our civil courts over prolonged periods, we soon learned the sad truth about the crooked operatives in the legal profession and their deceitful, fraudulent habits. [....]

I'd be interested in any new evidence or insights that they have, but I'm not that interested in their opinions. The whole thing sounds like a bunch of kooks, to be honest.

Rolfe.
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Old 14th November 2009, 12:18 AM   #148
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
Hmmm, where did you find that? Their website designer should be taken out and shot for a start. I'd rather read Bollier's!
Anyday. It's definitely a goofy little page, just popped up a few pages in on a random search. I should probably be glad the widget thing didn't work, the design is unique, especially the 90% empty space thing. Maybe it looked better at one point. Are those real judges at the top? One looks like a mode.l

Quote:
It's an odd summation of the evidence. They urge the reader to read the court judgement - but that's one of the strongest documents suggesting the conclusion to be flawed. Looks kinda official, doesn't it, despite the cock-eyed layout. But who are these people? The title is a dead giveaway - disgruntled litigants.
"Deep-rooted corruption" somehow makes it feel more centralized and conspiratorial than it otherwise might.

The page does cover some details, and tries to make a pro-con breakdown for the different points of evidence. Apparently someone there did some research, but it's not very detailed or nuanced or useful or anything.
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Old 14th November 2009, 10:08 AM   #149
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It reminded me a bit of the Conspiracy Files film. Well, there was definitely an unaccompanied bag came through from Malta, so that was definitely the bomb. Uh, right....

I can see the reasoning behind the suggestion that Libya was involved in the bombing. Libya was supplying terrorists of many nationalities with armaments at the time. I just can't understand why anyone who has studied the evidence clings to the idea that Megrahi did it.

The trial reminds me a bit of an old Dick Francis novel - Enquiry. A jockey and trainer are warned off (Newmarket Heath) at the start of the book, which means loss of livelihood for both. Basically, they were framed by a jealous rival. This was done by sending a bunch of slanted and fabricated evidence to the steward conducting the enquiry. The evidence was circumstantial and not terribly convincing, and the jockey was able to counter quite a lot of it at the hearing. However, the steward wasn't listening and preferred to believe the circumstantial evidence.

It turned out that the steward was being blackmailed. The villain, the jealous rival, knew something about the steward that would have ruined him socially, and threatened to expose him if he didn't find against the jockey and trainer. He then let him stew for a few days before sending him the anonymous package of evidence. The steward was so relieved to see evidence that apparently demonstrated the guilt of the accused, he simply wasn't listening when the evidence was challenged.

I see the Camp Zeist judges as being in a psychologically similar place. Not that anyone was going to expose their predilection for S&M sex clubs, but that they viewed the possibility of no convicitons coming out of Camp Zeist with absolute horror - possibly subconsciously. As a result, they latched on to whatever evidence they could that seemed to support Megrahi's guilt. The Camp Zeist judgement really does read remarkably similarly to pages 9 to 18 of Enquiry.

Rolfe.
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Old 15th November 2009, 05:01 PM   #150
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Yay I have the interwebs again.

Been skimming through some of the threads I've not read recently and will write more on Tuesday when I have more time, I like the Wiki idea though. I'd be happy to contribute.
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Old 15th November 2009, 06:04 PM   #151
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Originally Posted by Ambrosia View Post
Yay I have the interwebs again.

Been skimming through some of the threads I've not read recently and will write more on Tuesday when I have more time, I like the Wiki idea though. I'd be happy to contribute.
I was wondering what happened to you. I was struggling to not drop the cheese word. ("cheesed out" in case you're not familiar). Yay! The wiki is up, send Dan O. a PM.
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Old 16th November 2009, 01:19 AM   #152
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I'm not sure what thread this fits in, but... Working on the names list at the new wiki site, found something on two of our heroes here, that happen for now to line up next to each other alphabetically. I didn't realize this before.

*Paul Foot - author of "Lockerbie: The Flight From Justice" published by Private Eye in May 2001. Died July 18 2004 (heart attack, in an airport)
*Allan Francovich - Videographer, producer of the film The Maltese Double Cross, released November 1994. Died April 24 1997 (heart attack, in an airport)

And, one may ask, why? I suppose studying air disasters and crossing powerful people who might be 'out to get you' might not be the best when you're at the airport, but still - it's apparently a set condition that takes about three years to kick in. ??? We could find a latin name for it - Rolfe, you might be the best at that.
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Old 16th November 2009, 03:06 AM   #153
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I mentioned that several pages ago, or maybe in another thread.

The rumour that Francovich was assassinated has been around for some time - I believe he was generally very anti-establishment and blew several whistles on the CIA. However, bump off Paul Foot, and leave Ian Hislop up there on TV every week?

I think it's just one more coincidence, to be honest.

Rolfe.
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Old 16th November 2009, 03:59 AM   #154
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
I mentioned that several pages ago, or maybe in another thread.

The rumour that Francovich was assassinated has been around for some time - I believe he was generally very anti-establishment and blew several whistles on the CIA. However, bump off Paul Foot, and leave Ian Hislop up there on TV every week?

I think it's just one more coincidence, to be honest.

Rolfe.
Weird enough to mention anyway. I missed that Foot was dead at all, somehow. Only the good die young-ish. RIP "Pol Fot"
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Old 16th November 2009, 04:53 AM   #155
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Here's something else, maybe nothing. Looking at the Erac printout, a four digit number I'm wondering about. In the upper left, under KIK (which was I think Bogomira's station). 1932. It's to the left of a date, so is it a time?

1653 departure, 22 minutes after the last two items arrived for loading at the second gate, B041. So it's not a time relating to the flight pulled up as 1042. Is it the time of data retrieval or printing? That's been said to be the next morning, but 1932 is evening. And the DATEI next to that, on the same data line, is 881221, not 1222. So if not access/print time and date, then what else might these represent?
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Old 16th November 2009, 09:09 AM   #156
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I don't know, but you're convincing me that the entire Erac thing needs to be looked at more carefully. It's back to the timeline, which I was chewing over in a different thread.

It really does appear to be the Erac printout that is the crucial item of evidence which sent the focus of the case veering towards Libya. I realised this while reading Coleman, who of course has a different perspective because he's writing so early in the case, before everybody started obsessing about the timer fragment.
  • Up to March 1989, everybody is very excited about the PFLP-GC connection, with arrests being expected and so on.
  • Mid-March 1989, the alleged conversation between Thatcher and Bush, agreeing to play down that connection. However, at first there as no alternative theory put forward in its place.
  • August 1989, the Frankfurt police finally hand over the Erac printout to the investigating authorities, complete with annotations and supporting documentation to suggest an unidentified bag has come through the system on to PA103A from KM180.
  • September 1989, Scottish police visit Malta for the second time, to try to trace the purchaser of the "Made in Malta" items that were identified as probably having been in the bomb suitcase. (Their first visit, in March, was apparently fruitless, as similar items had been supplied to retailers all over Europe, however after the KM180 connection was proposed they went back to concentrate on retailers on Malta itself.)
  • Almost immediately, with the help of the Maltese police, they were put in touch with Gauci, who told them about the mystery shopper, and volunteered that he believed the man to have been Libyan.
  • Late September 1989 (I think), the first press reports in a French newspaper allege Libyan involvement.
  • December 1989, the Sunday Times and other English papers have shifted their line from Syria to Libya.
  • January 1990 (I think), the conference where Henderson doesn't reveal the mystery green fragment for general consideration, but mentions it to Marquise, who is quite miffed at the determination of the Scottish cops to "go it alone" on the identification.
  • April 1990, the fragment's trip to Germany and the Siemens factory.
  • June 1990, Thurman finally gets a gander at it and identifies it in no time flat.
So by this reckoning, the Erac printout is far more important that I had realised at first. It led to KM180, which led to Malta, which led to Gauci, who said "filthy Libyan pigs" or something like that. Nevertheless, the investigators still had nothing concrete to link it to Libya at this stage. That was where Giaka came in, and of course the MST-13 fragment.

Leaving aside the evidence of the red-circle photo (suggesting that the timer fragment was in the system in May 1989), this all looks quite neat.

All the initial evidence points to the PFLP-GC. Who are backed by Syria. Who were being paid by Iran to take revenge for the shooting down of the Airbus. The police are hot on the trail. But hey, we don't want to lock horns with Iran for some fairly major geo-political reasons. What's done's done, and it might be better just to let them get away with it.

And another thing, the plane that went down was being used by the DEA for a "controlled" drugs delivery as part of a sting operation to catch drug dealers in Detroit. We're kinda worried that the bomb was smuggled on board using that operation to circumvent security at Frankfurt, and it would be embarrassing to have to admit it was an "official blind eye" that allowed the plane to be sabotaged. We've already taken steps to bury all the baggage records from Frankfurt because of that' and we'd take it very kindly if you'd refrain from asking questions about it.

Oh, and it's more complicated that that. The controlled drugs deliveries were actually linked to negotiations for the release of the Beirut hostages. So we seriously don't want these questions asked.

This is March, OK?

Is it at all possible that the Frankfurt and Maltese police were in some way co-opted to provide that chain of evidence that would lead to Gauci and "filthy Libyan pigs"? I would just mention that Frankfurt is in the part of Germany that was under US control post WW2.

They've got five months to do it. According to Coleman (who isn't necessarily correct, but it's a start), all that was handed over by the Germans was the Erac printout, the handwritten worksheet from station 206, and a typewritten document. All neatly ready-annotated with the inference trail leading to KM180. Caustic Logic, do you think it's possible for the entire damn lot to have been fabricated, or at least the printout?

My reasoning is that the Malta connection exists already, in the labels on the clothing. If the imperative is to turn attention away from Frankfurt (it's already been turned away from Heathrow, from about week 1), then Malta might be a good place to focus on. (Especially if you don't know about Air Malta's tight security, and make the common assumption that a small carrier at a small provincial airport will probably have quite lax security provisions.)

Using that connection, we can then make a case for the clothes to have been manufactured on Malta (which we already know), bought on Malta, packed on Malta, and loaded on the plane in Malta. So nobody has to hang for a security breach at Frankfurt.

I know this ignores quite a bit - like, did Gauci really sell the clothes, and if not what's all this about regarding Abu Talb being there on 23rd November, and Gauci's photofit looking a bit like Abu Talb (Bollier says Giaka, but I'm taking that with the obligatory pinch of salt).

Well, I'm on a bit of a roll here. Abu Talb had a load of clothes of Maltese manufacture in his flat in Sweden. He said he was investigating a business plan to sell these clothes in Sweden. But you don't buy such clothes samples from a retailer like Gauci. Do we know where he got those clothes? Did anybody try to find out?

Suppose Jibril and his henchmen simply took some of Abu Talb's Maltese clothes samples for bomb packing. That's the real Maltese connection. And the whole, "well it was raining a bit, and the Christmas lights weren't up yet and my brother was watching the football" stuff was so much flim-flam.

I know I said I couldn't believe Gauci was capable of making this stuff up. And why would he? I also said I didn't see how the Erac printout could have been fabricated, with Mrs. Erac being wheeled on to give it authentic provenance.

I'm not exactly changing my mind, but I think there are legitimate questions to ask.

Rolfe.
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Old 16th November 2009, 09:23 AM   #157
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PS. If you want to argue against that, start with the unbrella (that's not a typo by the way).

The story goes that the cops didn't mention umbrella to Gauci at all. He himself volunteered the bit about the rain, and the customer buying an umbrella for that reason. The cops asked what sort of an umbrella, and he showed them one just the same. They went back to Scotland and looked at a pile of random umbrellas that had been recovered from the ground, and lo and behold, one was an exact match.

Except, that last bit can't be right. The umbrella was nowhere near intact, according to the court judgement.

Quote:
Three fragments of a black nylon umbrella. The major fragments comprised part of the canopy, ribbing and handle stem, shredded and partly collapsed indicating close involvement with an explosion. Strongly adherent to the canopy material were blue and white fibres, similar in appearance to the Babygro fibres. A second fragment was a piece of silver coated black plastic with fluted surface corrugations similar to part of the locking collar of the umbrella, and this was found in a fragment of the tartan checked trousers (item 2 above).

Hmmmm.

Then again, what about the tweed jacket? Gauci says the customer bought that, and he was glad to get rid of it because he couldn't sell it due to Malta's mild climate. He would have given a discount, but the man didn't ask for one. Was that manufactured on Malta? That would explain its presence in Abu Talb's collection of samples. It's a funny thing for a Maltese shop to stock at all, though.

Hmmmm, again.

Rolfe.
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Old 16th November 2009, 04:49 PM   #158
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
  • Late September 1989 (I think), the first press reports in a French newspaper allege Libyan involvement.
  • December 1989, the Sunday Times and other English papers have shifted their line from Syria to Libya.

Just to note, this bit was wrong. It was September 1990 that L'Express published the stuff about the MST-13 being of Libyan origin, and December 1990 when the Independent reported conclusive proof of Libya's guilt. So, after the identification of the timer fragment and apparently directly prompted by it.

I'm not sure that damages my little theory much, but let's get it right.

Rolfe.
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Old 16th November 2009, 06:19 PM   #159
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Suppose it was all supposed to be about Libya much sooner?

Evidence introduced to point to Malta, to reinforce the provenance of the clothes. Then that points to Gauci, who implicates Libya. In September 1989.

And nobody takes a blind bit of notice.

The timer fragment is part of this and I still have an open mind about when it was introduced, who knows. But nobody will give it to Thurman, who can identify it.

Feraday allegedly sends the picture to Williamson in September 1989, just when it's all go with Gauci. Pace Private Eye, but that sounds like about the right time for a fabricated fragment to be introduced. Especially if it was produced from the test detonations that happened in the USA in the summer of 1989.

Somebody is supposed to show it to the Yanks quite soon after that, but it takes them nine months. Oh dear.

I don't have a clue how the problem of the negative of the red-circle photo is circumvented in that scenario, but since we don't know it wasn't, I'm not giving up on it yet.

Rolfe.
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Old 17th November 2009, 01:00 AM   #160
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Below is an e-mail I'm about to send to Robert Black. Thought I'd share it here and proofread it before sending.

Dear Professor Black
(in lieu of better knowledge of formal title)

I have been following your blog and appreciating your contributions to various articles and videos on the subject of the Lockerbie disaster and trials. As someone on the inside track, I felt it worth asking your help. I'm also involved in some detailed discussion-cum-investigations at the JREF forum (forums.randi.org), as well as starting a "wiki" research site to make sense of all the evidence and claims. On the latter, it's members-only at the moment, but easy to register and then open to edit and add. I'm sure you personally have bigger fish to fry, but in case you have a chance to steer anyone else towards involvement, it will become a resource to be reckoned with that much quicker.
(not sure if I should post the url here ??)

Along the way we're finding ourselves limited by lack of some primary source material, particularly in my mind transcripts or other direct reflections of actual Camp Zeist trial proceedings. Each of us has a copy of the final verdict and some of the appeal-related documents, but sorely lack in transcripts, or video or audio coverage, of the questioning itself. For example, the following passage is posted on a Mebo page, indicating Mr. Bollier at least has some of these records:
Quote:
Q-And keeping that in front of you, would you look at Label 412. What's the police identification reference on that label, Mr. Williamson? A- DP/347(a) Q- So that's the same as the reference on 434, but with the addition of the letter "(a)"? A- Yes. Q-Have you signed the label that's attached to 412? A- No, I have not, sir. Q- What does the label say about its source? A- It says "Found DP/347 on 24/5/91". Along from that, "28/2/92." Q- So it says "Found DP/347"? A-Yes, sir. Q- I see.
I'm inclined to trust this as good evidence, but there's more out there somewhere and I for one would like a more direct source, even for the tidbits. Do you have any tips on where a researcher could find such material? I'm unsure if there might be any 'national security' or 'court secrets' type limitations on what's releasable, but as we wait for a new investigation, it might help to digest more fully what came out of the last one. Also, image productions (label 412, etc.) would be most useful if they are available anywhere that we've been unable to find.

Keep up the wonderful work - it's appreciated by many. I'm looking forward to your book.
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