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6th November 2009, 12:59 AM | #121 |
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Rolfe, thanks for the tip to check Coleman on this. Chapter 7 covers the Frankfurt connection, with a detailed analysis of Aviv's earlier claims (which do in fact mention just what he's started saying again lately). He may be too accepting there, but Coleman knows a lot more than I do. I don't know what his sources are on the particulars of airport records, but the line up with what I know where they should, and add some valuable detail, especially on the Pan Am end.
On the Erac printout, he adds some nice details, like about the Aug 89 police report. He considers "the provenance of the crucial computer listing itself" to be "unreliable" and sounds a lot like me here:
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6th November 2009, 05:22 AM | #122 |
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I'm unsure what to make of Coleman. The autobiographical parts of the book show him to be a dodgy character anyway. However, it's more likely that dodgy characters will get involved in this sort of thing than fine upstanding citizens. Doesn't make him a liar in this context.
Googling Coleman is instructive. According to Wikipedia he is currently in jail, having pleaded guilty to perjury charges. Presumably the same perjury charges levelled to try to get him extradited from Sweden? Opinion varies wildly between dismissing him as a fantasist and fraudster, and supporting his claims of having been set up to silence him about the Frankfurt end of the Pan Am 103 indicent. I don't really buy his version of how the bomb got on the plane, but as we've noted, that part isn't actually necessary to whether or not the rest of the story stands up. Even if the rogue bag wasn't substituted for a bag of drugs, it's perfectly possible that the cover-up went into overdrive at an early stage either because someone thought that might have happened, or because they simply wanted to conceal the drug route from the inevitable investigation. Coleman could be wrong about his main premise, and he could be making stuff up about his personal involvement, but still be right enough about that aspect for the authorities to want to silence him and/or discredit him. It's interesting that it's Coleman and Francovich who seem to have been particularly singled out to be suppressed, and it's these two who have particularly homed in on the drug-smuggling aspect. It almost seems as if it doesn't matter that their stuff is now in the public domain, because it can just be laughed off as conspiracy theorising. They're not the only commentators who have been smeared though. Aviv, also - though the way he's carrying on right now is rather tending to place him in the Bollier category. Shaughnessy also seems to have had preposterous charges filed against him to shut him up. Le Winter is routinely described as a conman and fantasist. Ben Aryeah was subjected to a very weird attack by an anonymous poster on Robert Black's blog. I have no idea if these are legitimate assessments of these people's credibility, or deliberate attempts to discredit them. However, if the former, this case seems to have attracted an awfully high percentage of people intent on making up fairy stories for unexplained reasons. Rolfe. |
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7th November 2009, 12:54 AM | #123 |
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I'm just a suspicious person, but with something this scale, somehow I expect two main layers of "disinfo" - the obvious clowns, who make the real mis-directors look like bastions of sanity by comparison. Bollier and probably Aviv I put in the first category, and the second is, by nature, hard to assign. Coleman's got a mixed flavor, from what little I know and have read. I haven't even gone over these personal narrative parts
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Next I will come back to the particulars added from Coleman's chapter seven to our in-thread exploration of Frankfurt airport and its luggage issues. |
7th November 2009, 01:52 AM | #124 |
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Originally Posted by Trail of the Octopus
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Either investigators never came for the crucial evidence before its normal deletion, or it was deleted too early. THAT is why the printout wound up being the only and much-delayed record of the movements of the key bag. I suspect the printout lost NO corroboration in this early deletion. How early? According to this last snippet I'll share, the BKA had eight days to act under normal circumstances. Should have taken one or less. Quoting John Merritt, The Observer, 17 November 1991:
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Still shady. I really like this link to work over for cracks. It seems less well-covered. |
7th November 2009, 06:09 PM | #125 |
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Given the nature of his activities at the time, in one of in the murky world of espionage, Coleman is obviously a difficult character to align with completely, and thus feel at ease with his version of events. You must wonder, in a life so entrenched in the field of intelligence, the distinction and boundaries of what is fact and fiction can surely become blurred and rendered almost incoherent of each other? As I said, a murky world involving many dubious individuals. As Coleman himself admits, "spies are not encouraged to keep diaries, send memos or make carbon copies of reports. If they attract suspicion, 'deniability' is their only hope."
I would also add this would no doubt prove even more troublesome and dangerous when involving clandestine missions that are disturbed, or worse, uncovered. As Goddard states in the foreword of Trail, "If a spy is cut off by his own country, deniability can work like a hangmans noose. With no written record to call on and no access to official files, he must rely for the most part on memory to defend himself, so that, in the end, it usually comes down to his word against his government's. This can give rise to questions of credibility....with most people disposed to give those in authority the benefit of the doubt, why should anyone believe him?" However, the crucial points which I feel are always worthy of consideration when assessing any credibility : 1. What was their position when allegations are first made? : 2. is there a pattern, together with substantive plausibility or a divergence of allegations? : and 3. individually what was gained?
My instinct is akin to Jime Swire who "was disturbed at how the US authorities were treating Coleman. Swire wrote: 'The gross maltreatment of Coleman by the American authorities appears to fit a pattern of victimisation of people who challenge the official version that Libya was solely to blame for Lockerbie." |
7th November 2009, 06:26 PM | #126 |
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Okay, I've managed to track down the US court of appeals second circuit (Part of docket 92-9251) the original PanAm v US court judgement.
A few snippets that are worth picking out:
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Link to full document :http://openjurist.org/37/f3d/804 |
8th November 2009, 01:36 AM | #127 |
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It's a feeling I for one am used to, so not too troubling.
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in Micheal Hurley's book I Solemnly Swear, pp 326/27 (Google Books link) His rendition of the Hershow/Coleman story is about as I just read it in Coleman's book - he was unaware of any shady characters aboard, until Hershow sent him a picture of Jafaar, whom he recognized as a DEA "mule" killed on 103, which got him thinking... It doesn'tsound right, Hershow denies this, Hurley points out all Coleman had to do was read the papers to know Jafaar was in there. Hurley denied Jafaar was ever DEA connected, and Interestingly, mentions there were protected drug operations in the past, but these did not require baggage handlers to be in on it. Rather, "the bags were escorted through security" by agents who made sure they weren't searched. So this would not contribute to a Lockerbie type breach, and was not happening anyway in December 88. Now I don't just up and believe this guy either, especially knowing so little all-around, but multiple views need to be considered. Also, according to these pages, Coleman's first thoughts expressed on NBC news was that Libya might be responsible since they had Semtex.
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http://www.amazon.com/Trail-Octopus-.../dp/1439237808 No used copies yet. Has the test been revised to reflect the rulings? Did he found a way to get the info out without directly profiting? Because something in there, apparently, got him tossed in jail. Then again, something got Megrahi locked up too.
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8th November 2009, 04:25 PM | #128 |
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I share your wariness in regrads to Coleman's possible experience and knowledge on manipulation of media entwined with his work. Hurley is also of dubious character and clearly has good reason to see Coleman cast as some kind of fantasist.
I've found a few other details of Hurley's apparent many faces, here : http://www.blythe.org/Intelligence/readme/lockerbie. Further confirming the 'controlled drugs delivery' that was active during the 1980's including '88, and interestingly, originating at Cyprus. There is also reference in here as to why Jaafar, possible operating as an asset, was also chosen as the courier with who's bag would be substituted with the bomb. Again, I can't confirm the veracity of these sites and their sources, but here is an article written on Coleman's escapade on returning from Sweden : http://plane-truth.com/Aoude/geocities/censorship.html.
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I'm not sure whether we're also drifting slightly of course in regards to the OP, and whether or not we have conclusively (as best we possibly can) answered the question?..There really could be a whole thread on Coleman et al? |
9th November 2009, 03:03 AM | #129 |
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Sorry, been doing some of that Real Life stuff.
I've been wondering about whether we need a few new threads, but unsure which ones to start. Maybe we need one about Frankfurt airport itself, unrelated to the KM180 flight? There are enough separate aspects to this for its own subforum, if only more people were interested! Rolfe. |
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9th November 2009, 05:43 AM | #130 |
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You're a horse? I thought you was a cat. ?? I've actually been working offline on a video putting together the points and evidence in this thread. The current version may not be postable, not sure what I can and can't, and it's too long yet. But it's good practice.
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poke, poke There's counter-points to be made, we're making them ourselves, folks. How about from someone who actually believes the official story or can more easily fake it? This or other threads, let's see five new voices speak up - is their unanimity yet or is the issue of al Megrahi's guilt still debated here? |
9th November 2009, 10:00 AM | #131 |
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The idea I was toying with was a set of factual essays, covering each of the salient aspects of the case. Stating what is actually known and can be attested to regarding each point, with links to the evidence where it can be found. We've barely started though, when I think about the number of points that could be covered - we probably need a thread for each point.
Gauci and the mystery shopper The warnings - how many, how precise, and how reliable (to include Botha and Carlsson) Luqa airport and KM180 Frankfurt, the disappearing records, and the Aviv/Shaughnessy/Coleman allegations Heathrow, the break-in and the Bedford suitcase The timing of the take-off and the explosion, and how this relates to the place of the explosion The CIA and related US personnel on board Jafaar and his antecedents Shenanigans on the ground - the disappearing body, the white helicopter and the suitcase of heroin The evidence for the "brown Samsonite suitcase on the second layer of luggage container AVE4041" hypothesis The provenance of that damn MST-13 fragment (including Bollier's statements) Jibril, Dalkamoni, Khreesat, Talb and their little friends from the PFLP-GC Giaka and the allegations against Megrahi and Fhimah Alleged attempts to silence whistle-blowers Libya, the sanctions and the compensation payments The Camp Zeist trial and appeal, and Hans Kochler's reports The SCCRC report and Megrahi's subsequent documentation Then we could also list the postulated hypotheses Megrahi/Fhimah at Luqa Jibril/Khreesat at Heathrow Ditto at Frankfurt, with or without substitution of Jafaar's suitcase Wrong plane - bag supposed to go on a direct flight that really was far out over the Atlantic at 7pm GMT VHF radio signal from ATC set off munitions being illegally transported LIHOP (non-specific) semi-accidental, related to release of CIA asset Khreesat LIHOP (specific), sacrificing a plane to assuage Iran's need for revenge for the Airbus Plane itself sabotaged (not via luggage) And I'm sure there are more. Everybody publishing on this thing has their own pet theory to push, and bends the evidence to fit the theory. The world needs a relatively unbiassed look at the evidence, what it really is, and the pros and cons of each of the theories. Might be fun to make a start anyway, and the great thing about the internet is that it could be amended if points were clarified or disproved. Rolfe. |
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9th November 2009, 02:55 PM | #132 |
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Somehow "fun" wasn't the word that popped up for me. I'm actually toying on and off with burnout on the whole issue, but nah, I'm still here. Now, we'd need a staff of probably ten at least to fill and manage these... okay you're talking essays, not threads, so that's more manageable - onetime discussion solidified and simmered. But still, that's a big list. I can offer, like, 1/2 person, maybe 2 essays-worth, depending if I get can't get a second job in this economy like I'm trying.
Here's what we need - a team website we and others can contribute material to. Submitted, approved, organized, collaborations, internal and external links, file hosting/downloads... Meant to suggest that before, as my little blog abilities aren't keeping up too well on an issue people are actually interested in now. We're like investigators ourselves, minus the going out and finding new clues part, and we're just regular citizens, so maybe we should call ourselves Citizen Investgation Team. No, that's got a bad ring somehow. Well, one step at a time. |
9th November 2009, 03:42 PM | #133 |
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Hey, it's been nearly 21 years! There's an advantage to coming to this late, because it's easier to take a long view. But the other advantage is, really, where's the hurry?
I just thought, start the threads, one at a time, when we seem to get to the subject, and hopefully when we've got as far as we can with the live ones. We've gone quite a long way both on the timer fragment and on the Malta/Frankfurt thing. All it really needs is an overview of what the relevant threads have discovered and concluded (if anything). Rolfe. |
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9th November 2009, 07:01 PM | #134 |
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I think Gauci could be another very informative thread. It also completes the three critical areas of the whole case against Megrahi. The others, the fragment and the introduction of the suitcase at Luqa, have been extensively examined. The former remians on-going and the latter we appeared to have reached an outcome where we cannot show any convincing way the suitcase could have been introduced at Malta, and even accepting the bag coded at Frankfurt, there is no evidence it arrived with absolute certainty from KM180.
With Gauci, we could consider and hopefully examine further the dates of purchase, the weather, the actual clothing, the identification(s), the alleged payments, his statements, Talb...etc This is not to say any number of the areas Rolfe has outlined could be, I think, explored much more extensively as the other contentious areas of the prosecution case have been. |
9th November 2009, 07:45 PM | #135 |
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A BBS thread is great for discussion but doesn't really separate the cream from the chaff.
What's we need is a place where all the parts can be spread out with a separate page devoted to each person, place or object and full hyperlinking between them and index pages, key word searches and categories to assist searching for the key bits. This is a collaborative effort so that of course must also be supported. I think a wiki would make a good platform for this task. Wikis don't have to be encyclopedias. I created one at work for system documentation and started one in a user group for user editable reference pages. I've asked in the past about creating a skeptics wiki for general documentation and skeptical research but they seem more interested in having a baby wikipedia here. If one of you already have a hosting plan that can run a wiki, you could create it there. Otherwise, I could look into getting my own hosting plan and start another private wiki. The biggest drawback is that I would need help picking a name for it. |
10th November 2009, 05:41 AM | #136 |
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I don't mean to burst your parade, but mixed metaphors tun me on! Ummm... kidding. What's BBS? One of these? Agreed, we've seen how these can ramble on into sidetracks and excessive indecisive nerdiness. The high points are in there, somewhere...
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I'd like to invite (can I do that?) involvement from the same skeptics who haven't been arguing back yet, if there becomes something to be involved with. Different views going on would be great, to create a balanced product. Not that we're imbalanced, just appear that way to perhaps most people. It would be good to have some genuine points FOR the official story. Just not more than is warranted. Maybe a little more, just to be over-fair. And also all the people who've been involved repeatedly in these threads: Rolfe, GlennB, myself, Ambrosia, Realdon, Dan O., and Buncrana, any I forgot, to consider the idea.
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10th November 2009, 05:48 AM | #137 |
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The Gauci link is quite fertile to explore. I've studies eyewitness controversies before, tho, and found them quite slippery and hard to say what's really going on - memory fog vs. different phrasing vs. lies and so on... It gets subjective.
Heathrow and/or Gauci. And for that matter, exploring the Giaka threat, from the earlier ominous hints to his epic destruction in court, would be fun. Don't forget, they had indicted and planned their prosecution case around FOUR main pillars, not three. This one they KNEW was bogus and presented as true glue anyway, and probably should have got a mistrial or something. That's darn instructive. |
10th November 2009, 06:52 AM | #138 |
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I have a domain on UKservers, but I have no clue how wikis work or how to set up or maintain one. I'd happily donate the facilities though.
Damn, it's a good idea! Rolfe. |
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11th November 2009, 10:59 AM | #139 |
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I looked at UKservers and they do have TikiWiki and PhpWiki. Their policies prohibit hosting videos and MP3s which we could probably live with. Can't find anything about setting up the wiki. It may be a cpannel thing that you just click and it's there. I haven't got a clue what our bandwidth and disk usage will be. Probably pretty minimal at first but could skyrocket at any moment if we get slashdot'ed.
I may be able to piggyback on the hosting plan that my club uses at DreamHost. They recently upgraded all hosting plans to "unlimited everything" so there won't be any resource limitations. A downside there is in order to use SSL you need to pay extra for a private IP address which the club doesn't have. DreamHost uses MediaWiki. |
11th November 2009, 06:44 PM | #140 |
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I am not a tech nerd, and know not what approach to take here. It's worth money to pay, for reliability, flexibility, support. So long as it's not much I can pitch in. Like $20 or something for year one. Whatever format if its readable, hosts graphics, PDFs for download if possible (our own essays and reference documents), I'd like to be a member with password access to add things at 4am. Regular discussions, collaboration, ironing out differences, appending opinions and dissenting comments... I dunno, is that too nerdy?
For names, one struck me - Third Decade, or something to that effect, in there. We've just missed the 20th anniversary, so looking at it as the longer-view 20-30 year after range gives it context and gives us, if we and our descendants want, another nine years before the name goes bad. Twin goals - change the public discourse on the current conviction and storyline. Megrahi will surely die a guilty man in the eyes of the law, but needn't stay that way for long. And, to the extent possible, work towards determining what did happen and what to do about it. These obviously go beyond a website, but there are two-way streets between 3-D activism and info, who knows who'll take them. And I think we're a little off-topic now. Lol. |
11th November 2009, 07:23 PM | #141 |
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This sidetrack isn't likely to derail the thread for long as we'll probably have something up in a few days.
Since the wiki allows any page to be edited by any user at any time, it's probably best to limit the wiki to the facts and the references backing them up and leave the personal theories to the users own blogs. We'll be pushing into CT realms so it will be best to require logins for edit access and screen users to those the have similar goals of finding what really happened (or at least documenting what is known) over pushing a pet theory. Some legalities need to be considered concerning documents. If the site is private we'll fly under the radar for copyright issues but should still try to stay legal. Documents should be referenced to the source anyhow and the act of seeking permission to archive documents on the site may open the channel to other similar documents. |
12th November 2009, 12:21 AM | #142 |
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Something's certainly better than nothing. What you're describing is basically a reference site to gather the available evidence. That would be useful, but more of a service for further action. I'd like to see something more open to speculation, tentative conclusions, statements of informed opinion, and especially external activism to raise awareness and pressure in the 3-D world. As well as pulling together existing info. Essentially, I'd like to help start up the independent inquiry that governments find "inappropriate." With no subpoena power, no legal authority, part-tiime unpaid staff just doing what they can, etc., but with the advantages of being open, transparent, flexible. If anyone else (a few people) are interested, I'd like to look at the options there fairly soon. Unless someone talks me down on it. It is a bit lofty and I'm not always the best at following through...
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12th November 2009, 05:00 AM | #143 |
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If you open a wiki to the public too soon it will get attacked by vandals and the few users will have to spend all their time cleaning up the mess. We'll start with an invitation only membership to get a framework in place and establish the rules for the site. Then we may open part of the site for public viewing and membership requests. Once we have a large enough membership base for self monitoring we can open it for automatic enrollment. But I don't envision the site getting that large unless we expand the scope.
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12th November 2009, 07:23 AM | #144 |
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By the way, there are two outfits both called "UK servers". Mine is the one also going by the name "virtualnames". I'm not sure which one you looked at. My bunch are very low-cost because I don't do anything fancy, so they may not support so much.
I would have thought that some pages could be dedicated to the evidence for or against specific theories. And that some sections of pages might actually cover speculation, as long as it's clearly separated from the factual content. Rolfe. |
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12th November 2009, 05:10 PM | #145 |
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I haven't looked very closely at the "Masonic Verses" thing, but the author is posting on Roert Black's blog ("Baz"), but it might be worth a closer look as he seems to have studied the evidence quite closely.
http://e-zeecon.blogspot.com He's a bit of a MIHOPer I think, though. Rolfe. |
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13th November 2009, 03:18 PM | #146 |
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"get taggs"
Scotland Against Crooked Lawyers. http://www.sacl.info/Lockerbie.htm
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13th November 2009, 04:30 PM | #147 |
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Hmmm, where did you find that? Their website designer should be taken out and shot for a start. I'd rather read Bollier's!
It's an odd summation of the evidence. They urge the reader to read the court judgement - but that's one of the strongest documents suggesting the conclusion to be flawed. Looks kinda official, doesn't it, despite the cock-eyed layout. But who are these people? The title is a dead giveaway - disgruntled litigants.
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I'd be interested in any new evidence or insights that they have, but I'm not that interested in their opinions. The whole thing sounds like a bunch of kooks, to be honest. Rolfe. |
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14th November 2009, 12:18 AM | #148 |
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Anyday. It's definitely a goofy little page, just popped up a few pages in on a random search. I should probably be glad the widget thing didn't work, the design is unique, especially the 90% empty space thing. Maybe it looked better at one point. Are those real judges at the top? One looks like a mode.l
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The page does cover some details, and tries to make a pro-con breakdown for the different points of evidence. Apparently someone there did some research, but it's not very detailed or nuanced or useful or anything. |
14th November 2009, 10:08 AM | #149 |
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It reminded me a bit of the Conspiracy Files film. Well, there was definitely an unaccompanied bag came through from Malta, so that was definitely the bomb. Uh, right....
I can see the reasoning behind the suggestion that Libya was involved in the bombing. Libya was supplying terrorists of many nationalities with armaments at the time. I just can't understand why anyone who has studied the evidence clings to the idea that Megrahi did it. The trial reminds me a bit of an old Dick Francis novel - Enquiry. A jockey and trainer are warned off (Newmarket Heath) at the start of the book, which means loss of livelihood for both. Basically, they were framed by a jealous rival. This was done by sending a bunch of slanted and fabricated evidence to the steward conducting the enquiry. The evidence was circumstantial and not terribly convincing, and the jockey was able to counter quite a lot of it at the hearing. However, the steward wasn't listening and preferred to believe the circumstantial evidence. It turned out that the steward was being blackmailed. The villain, the jealous rival, knew something about the steward that would have ruined him socially, and threatened to expose him if he didn't find against the jockey and trainer. He then let him stew for a few days before sending him the anonymous package of evidence. The steward was so relieved to see evidence that apparently demonstrated the guilt of the accused, he simply wasn't listening when the evidence was challenged. I see the Camp Zeist judges as being in a psychologically similar place. Not that anyone was going to expose their predilection for S&M sex clubs, but that they viewed the possibility of no convicitons coming out of Camp Zeist with absolute horror - possibly subconsciously. As a result, they latched on to whatever evidence they could that seemed to support Megrahi's guilt. The Camp Zeist judgement really does read remarkably similarly to pages 9 to 18 of Enquiry. Rolfe. |
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15th November 2009, 05:01 PM | #150 |
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Yay I have the interwebs again.
Been skimming through some of the threads I've not read recently and will write more on Tuesday when I have more time, I like the Wiki idea though. I'd be happy to contribute. |
15th November 2009, 06:04 PM | #151 |
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16th November 2009, 01:19 AM | #152 |
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I'm not sure what thread this fits in, but... Working on the names list at the new wiki site, found something on two of our heroes here, that happen for now to line up next to each other alphabetically. I didn't realize this before.
*Paul Foot - author of "Lockerbie: The Flight From Justice" published by Private Eye in May 2001. Died July 18 2004 (heart attack, in an airport) *Allan Francovich - Videographer, producer of the film The Maltese Double Cross, released November 1994. Died April 24 1997 (heart attack, in an airport) And, one may ask, why? I suppose studying air disasters and crossing powerful people who might be 'out to get you' might not be the best when you're at the airport, but still - it's apparently a set condition that takes about three years to kick in. ??? We could find a latin name for it - Rolfe, you might be the best at that. |
16th November 2009, 03:06 AM | #153 |
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I mentioned that several pages ago, or maybe in another thread.
The rumour that Francovich was assassinated has been around for some time - I believe he was generally very anti-establishment and blew several whistles on the CIA. However, bump off Paul Foot, and leave Ian Hislop up there on TV every week? I think it's just one more coincidence, to be honest. Rolfe. |
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"The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012. |
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16th November 2009, 03:59 AM | #154 |
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16th November 2009, 04:53 AM | #155 |
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Here's something else, maybe nothing. Looking at the Erac printout, a four digit number I'm wondering about. In the upper left, under KIK (which was I think Bogomira's station). 1932. It's to the left of a date, so is it a time?
1653 departure, 22 minutes after the last two items arrived for loading at the second gate, B041. So it's not a time relating to the flight pulled up as 1042. Is it the time of data retrieval or printing? That's been said to be the next morning, but 1932 is evening. And the DATEI next to that, on the same data line, is 881221, not 1222. So if not access/print time and date, then what else might these represent? |
16th November 2009, 09:09 AM | #156 |
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I don't know, but you're convincing me that the entire Erac thing needs to be looked at more carefully. It's back to the timeline, which I was chewing over in a different thread.
It really does appear to be the Erac printout that is the crucial item of evidence which sent the focus of the case veering towards Libya. I realised this while reading Coleman, who of course has a different perspective because he's writing so early in the case, before everybody started obsessing about the timer fragment.
Leaving aside the evidence of the red-circle photo (suggesting that the timer fragment was in the system in May 1989), this all looks quite neat. All the initial evidence points to the PFLP-GC. Who are backed by Syria. Who were being paid by Iran to take revenge for the shooting down of the Airbus. The police are hot on the trail. But hey, we don't want to lock horns with Iran for some fairly major geo-political reasons. What's done's done, and it might be better just to let them get away with it. And another thing, the plane that went down was being used by the DEA for a "controlled" drugs delivery as part of a sting operation to catch drug dealers in Detroit. We're kinda worried that the bomb was smuggled on board using that operation to circumvent security at Frankfurt, and it would be embarrassing to have to admit it was an "official blind eye" that allowed the plane to be sabotaged. We've already taken steps to bury all the baggage records from Frankfurt because of that' and we'd take it very kindly if you'd refrain from asking questions about it. Oh, and it's more complicated that that. The controlled drugs deliveries were actually linked to negotiations for the release of the Beirut hostages. So we seriously don't want these questions asked. This is March, OK? Is it at all possible that the Frankfurt and Maltese police were in some way co-opted to provide that chain of evidence that would lead to Gauci and "filthy Libyan pigs"? I would just mention that Frankfurt is in the part of Germany that was under US control post WW2. They've got five months to do it. According to Coleman (who isn't necessarily correct, but it's a start), all that was handed over by the Germans was the Erac printout, the handwritten worksheet from station 206, and a typewritten document. All neatly ready-annotated with the inference trail leading to KM180. Caustic Logic, do you think it's possible for the entire damn lot to have been fabricated, or at least the printout? My reasoning is that the Malta connection exists already, in the labels on the clothing. If the imperative is to turn attention away from Frankfurt (it's already been turned away from Heathrow, from about week 1), then Malta might be a good place to focus on. (Especially if you don't know about Air Malta's tight security, and make the common assumption that a small carrier at a small provincial airport will probably have quite lax security provisions.) Using that connection, we can then make a case for the clothes to have been manufactured on Malta (which we already know), bought on Malta, packed on Malta, and loaded on the plane in Malta. So nobody has to hang for a security breach at Frankfurt. I know this ignores quite a bit - like, did Gauci really sell the clothes, and if not what's all this about regarding Abu Talb being there on 23rd November, and Gauci's photofit looking a bit like Abu Talb (Bollier says Giaka, but I'm taking that with the obligatory pinch of salt). Well, I'm on a bit of a roll here. Abu Talb had a load of clothes of Maltese manufacture in his flat in Sweden. He said he was investigating a business plan to sell these clothes in Sweden. But you don't buy such clothes samples from a retailer like Gauci. Do we know where he got those clothes? Did anybody try to find out? Suppose Jibril and his henchmen simply took some of Abu Talb's Maltese clothes samples for bomb packing. That's the real Maltese connection. And the whole, "well it was raining a bit, and the Christmas lights weren't up yet and my brother was watching the football" stuff was so much flim-flam. I know I said I couldn't believe Gauci was capable of making this stuff up. And why would he? I also said I didn't see how the Erac printout could have been fabricated, with Mrs. Erac being wheeled on to give it authentic provenance. I'm not exactly changing my mind, but I think there are legitimate questions to ask. Rolfe. |
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"The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012. |
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16th November 2009, 09:23 AM | #157 |
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PS. If you want to argue against that, start with the unbrella (that's not a typo by the way).
The story goes that the cops didn't mention umbrella to Gauci at all. He himself volunteered the bit about the rain, and the customer buying an umbrella for that reason. The cops asked what sort of an umbrella, and he showed them one just the same. They went back to Scotland and looked at a pile of random umbrellas that had been recovered from the ground, and lo and behold, one was an exact match. Except, that last bit can't be right. The umbrella was nowhere near intact, according to the court judgement.
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Hmmmm. Then again, what about the tweed jacket? Gauci says the customer bought that, and he was glad to get rid of it because he couldn't sell it due to Malta's mild climate. He would have given a discount, but the man didn't ask for one. Was that manufactured on Malta? That would explain its presence in Abu Talb's collection of samples. It's a funny thing for a Maltese shop to stock at all, though. Hmmmm, again. Rolfe. |
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"The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012. |
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16th November 2009, 04:49 PM | #158 |
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Just to note, this bit was wrong. It was September 1990 that L'Express published the stuff about the MST-13 being of Libyan origin, and December 1990 when the Independent reported conclusive proof of Libya's guilt. So, after the identification of the timer fragment and apparently directly prompted by it. I'm not sure that damages my little theory much, but let's get it right. Rolfe. |
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"The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012. |
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16th November 2009, 06:19 PM | #159 |
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Suppose it was all supposed to be about Libya much sooner?
Evidence introduced to point to Malta, to reinforce the provenance of the clothes. Then that points to Gauci, who implicates Libya. In September 1989. And nobody takes a blind bit of notice. The timer fragment is part of this and I still have an open mind about when it was introduced, who knows. But nobody will give it to Thurman, who can identify it. Feraday allegedly sends the picture to Williamson in September 1989, just when it's all go with Gauci. Pace Private Eye, but that sounds like about the right time for a fabricated fragment to be introduced. Especially if it was produced from the test detonations that happened in the USA in the summer of 1989. Somebody is supposed to show it to the Yanks quite soon after that, but it takes them nine months. Oh dear. I don't have a clue how the problem of the negative of the red-circle photo is circumvented in that scenario, but since we don't know it wasn't, I'm not giving up on it yet. Rolfe. |
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"The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012. |
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17th November 2009, 01:00 AM | #160 |
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Below is an e-mail I'm about to send to Robert Black. Thought I'd share it here and proofread it before sending.
Dear Professor Black (in lieu of better knowledge of formal title) I have been following your blog and appreciating your contributions to various articles and videos on the subject of the Lockerbie disaster and trials. As someone on the inside track, I felt it worth asking your help. I'm also involved in some detailed discussion-cum-investigations at the JREF forum (forums.randi.org), as well as starting a "wiki" research site to make sense of all the evidence and claims. On the latter, it's members-only at the moment, but easy to register and then open to edit and add. I'm sure you personally have bigger fish to fry, but in case you have a chance to steer anyone else towards involvement, it will become a resource to be reckoned with that much quicker. (not sure if I should post the url here ??) Along the way we're finding ourselves limited by lack of some primary source material, particularly in my mind transcripts or other direct reflections of actual Camp Zeist trial proceedings. Each of us has a copy of the final verdict and some of the appeal-related documents, but sorely lack in transcripts, or video or audio coverage, of the questioning itself. For example, the following passage is posted on a Mebo page, indicating Mr. Bollier at least has some of these records:
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Keep up the wonderful work - it's appreciated by many. I'm looking forward to your book. |
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