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5th October 2010, 03:49 PM | #241 |
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I was thinking again about "evidence" that makes it look as if someone must be guilty when they're not. I mentioned Barry George before. He was convicted for the 1999 murder of Jill Dando, and had the conviction upheld at his first appeal, much to the surprise of many observers. It was only at his second appeal after he'd been in jail for eight years that he was acquitted.
He wasn't of interest to the police until about two years after the murder, when they'd failed to find a suspect by following up more promising leads. Then the police started digging into his circumstances, and eventually charged him.
http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/...ygeorge460.jpg Most of that was true. Some of it was only half-true - for example, he had applied to join a gun club and the secretary had told him to get lost because he was obviously a fruitcake. The Territorials had given him the bum's rush for much the same reason nearly as quickly. And again, he was a newspaper hoarder, and the articles about Jill Dando all dated from after her murder and didn't even look as if they'd been opened. The firearms residue was the part that was overturned on appeal. The single particle was nothing more than explosives experts (oh God not Feraday again, surely....) sexing up their findings to support the prosecution. http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2008/au...dando.ukcrime2
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This was a murder so expertly carried out that no clues at all were left at the scene, and it bore many hallmarks of a professional hitman - certainly it was cunningly and meticulously planned. But never mind that, this pathetic inadequate with a chaotic lifestyle must have been guilty because he fantasised about firearms and the military and made a nuisance of himself to a lot of women. There's a perfectly plausible CT attached to the original murder, too. http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2008/au...dando.ukcrime3 Before George's second appeal there was no shortage of police officers insisting that they'd got the right man and any other opinion was ridiculous conspiracy theorising. Look, he was convicted and he lost his appeal. What more do you want? If you want more, just look at this photo and you'll realise what a cold, calculating killer he was! And he was a stalker and obsessed with Jill Dando, and he had a criminal record for sexual assault. He didn't have prostate cancer and wasn't pressurised to drop his second appeal. The appeal court threw out the conviction. Rolfe. |
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5th October 2010, 05:26 PM | #242 |
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Rolfe, I mentioned that I have experience with graphics, but you're clearly more adept at plotting maps regarding flight plans and putting all the coordinates together than I could ever imagine myself doing. You're quite brilliant, IMO.
Anyway, here is a site I found where you can (seemingly) actually input all of the variables. I haven't the time, nor any idea where to begin, but thought if you're so inclined, you might want to have a go at it, and see what you come up with. I didn't attend the entire trial, so I don't have copies of all of the production documents. Bummer. Wish there were some way to access them. Here in the US, once a trial is finished, it's public domain, unless the transcripts are sealed. I know the UK has a public information act similar to the US. I wonder if production doc's are available somewhere. Who knows if Megrahi is actually the one who set the timer. Doubtful. I recall reading something somewhere about timers Bollier took back with him at some point having been set at the same time as the PA103 bomb. PLEASE don't qoute me on that, or hold me to it. As I said, I think I recall reading it somewhere. But I'm not sure. And probably shouldn't have even brought it up. But, if someone else recalls it, or something like that, I figure it's worth mentioning. I'll try to find it. At any rate, by saying that Megrahi may not have set the timer, I'm not saying he still wasn't complicit in carrying it out. Sorry to end on a sour note. But.... well agreeing to disagree and all that... |
6th October 2010, 01:53 AM | #243 |
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Venturing to step back in where I might be useful.
Great work all on the flight path stuff. I've never done that it on a pro level, but did a lot of flight path images and some FDR reading and plotting (the hard and rough way) for my debunks of the Pentagon flyover nonsense. I may take a crack at a graphic of what's been presented above. I wrote about it here. Your recall is about right. I didn't think much of the allegation.
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Whoever it was that set the MST-13, real or hypothetical, I think we can all agree they were or would be pretty stupid. Maybe not dumb enough to hand a revealing clue to jabberjaw Bollier, but still exceedingly dense. |
6th October 2010, 02:16 AM | #244 |
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Hey, disagreeing isn't a "sour note"! I have to say this forum isn't big on agreeing to disagree (as in, well, we have different opinions, let's leave it at that). Even subjective opinions are liable to be vigorously argued into the ground before each side agrees they sufficiently understand the other's point to let it go. Do you think the films of LotR were better than the books? Prepare for the 50-page thread.... But disagreeing, even if argued very vigorously, isn't being "sour". It's what the forum is about. It's about debating the issues and presenting your point of view and listening to other people's points of view. Presenting your point of view coherently and with supporting evidence is what it's all about. We wouldn't be here otherwise! Rolfe. |
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6th October 2010, 03:59 AM | #245 |
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Flattery will get you everywhere.... Actually, I tried that one at the beginning, but it's far too restricted. All it does is give you the Great Circle route between any two airports you name - that's the shortest distance between the two points, following the curvature of the Earth. As the site Buncrana found clearly demonstrates, actual flight paths vary from the Great Circle route, mostly to the north of it, depending on weather and traffic conditions. There seems to be a sort of broad corridor within which the plane will be assigned a particular flight path, possibly only a short time before departure, and still subject to change one it's in the air. PA103 on the fatal day was routed in the northerly part of the LHR to JFK corridor. I'm not aware of the production documents being available for public viewing. Although quite a lot of them are online, they seem to have been put there by people who had access to them at the trial, such as Edwin Bollier. However, it seems to me we're answered the question as far as we need to. This flightpath taken from a couple of days ago is as near as dammit, if perhaps a little too far south where it passes over the Hebrides. We can see that the plane wouldn't have been over water at all for at least another 15 minutes, and it wouldn't have been over the open ocean until it had cleared the Long Island, at least another 15 minutes after that. We can also see that if it had been flying a more southerly route, it would have taken just as long to clear Ireland as it would have taken to clear the Outer Hebrides on the route it was actually on. Nobody setting that timer for 7.03pm could possibly have done it in the reasonable expectation the plane would crash in the open sea, even it it had departed implausibly promptly, and no matter which route it was assigned. I think Caustic Logic has covered this in the post above. Bollier did say that. Bollier says an awful lot of things, some of them quite demonstrably untrue. I find it best to approach what Edwin comes out with from the position that it's probably invented unless there is independent confirmation of the facts, to be quite honest. That one is a completely bizarre story that doesn't seem to relate to anything, and I'm way not convinced it's true anyway. The court was of much the same opinion.
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That kind of sums up just about everything Edwin Bollier says. Well, I was only saying Megrahi because we don't have any idea who else might have been involved in this plot (which I think is entirely fictitious anyway). And because I seem to remember that one of Giaka's little fairy-stories was actually seeing Megrahi setting a timer for 7pm, though I admit I'm not certain about that point. My point is wider than that. No matter who set the timer for 7pm, with the intention that the case would be sent off on KM180 tagged for PA103, which wasn't due to push off from the stand until 6pm (so wasn't likely to leave the ground till about 6.10 at the very earliest), it's inexplicable. I cannot think of a single rational explanation for anyone deliberately setting an MST-13 timer for that time, in the context of this alleged plot, and that includes any reasonable variation of "they made a mistake". Finding out the likely flight paths of a 747 going from LHR to JFK would be simplicity itself for anyone who had worked in the airline industry. But if the terrorists didn't even bother to do that, it's not rocket science. The window of the Atlantic crossing is a big enough target that a schoolboy could make a decent guess at an appropriate time, simply from knowing the departure and arrival times of the flight. The most likely "mistake" would be to fail to realise that these flights are over land for quite a long time at the end of the journey, make too great an allowance for delays, and have the thing come down on Newfoundland. However, the most cursory glance at the Great Circle route shows this quite clearly, and points to 10pm as the sensible setting. 7pm quite clearly runs a significant risk of the plane still being on the tarmac when the device explodes, which isn't going to do anything much except leave an awful lot of clues for the investigators to pick over, and a bunch of shocked passengers waiting for Pan Am to find them a new plane. And even if the plane didn't miss its slot, 7pm was highly likely to cause an explosion over land. Not so clever if you're making a positive effort to stock the suitcase with clothes that might be traced right back to a purchase made by the same conspirator who had to be present (for an unclear purpose) at the airport when the device will be smuggled on board. (For goodness sake, there are dozens of ways to source clothes that will never be traced back. It actually takes skill to figure out a way to do it so that they might be traceable!) This is the point I'm making here. The precise identity of the person who set the timer isn't really the issue. Rolfe. |
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6th October 2010, 04:09 PM | #246 |
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Bad habit, recapping stuff when the thread isn't moving much, but I think we lost the reason why the flight path was important. Because it showed that "I believe they were hoping that it would be over the Atlantic by the time the bomb went off" doesn't really fly when you examine the details of the route. It simply couldn't have been "over the Atlantic" no matter how early it had left or which route it took. With respect, you might as well declare they were hoping it would be orbiting Mars.
This was part of a larger point I was making that the alleged plot, that Megrahi was supposed to have been a part of, was irrational. Of course, people do irrational things all the time, and if it was proven that this had happened we'd have to deal with it, but it was by no means proven. It was simply speculated that this had been the plan, and then we were invited to believe this is what Megrahi actually did. This is a plan which was masterly and impenetrable in one crucial respect, but in other respects was not just brain-dead but positively perverse. So perverse that it could only have succeeded by a series of incredibly lucky breaks (for the terrorists), that again we are simply invited to assume happened. The introduction of the bomb to KM180 was the masterly part. Despite a prolonged and intensive investigation, no trace was ever found that the bomb or the suitcase were ever on the island of Malta. This is all the more impressive when one realises that the baggage security system at Luqa airport was surprisingly stringent. The small size of the airport worked in its favour, and the baggage was under constant supervision from check-in to loading. Early suspicions that a terrorist had simply checked the bag in for PA103 then failed to board were quickly disproved - all checked-in passengers actually travelled. A complete set of baggage records was available to the investigators, and these showed also that the number of bags actually on the plane matched the number that should have been there from the passenger records. Detailed inquiry further revealed that none of the passengers was missing a bag - nothing that should have travelled had been left behind at Luqa to make way for the bomb bag. Bunntamas, and the court, simply make an unsupported assumption that the terrorists must have managed it somehow. Nobody has ever suggested how, though. Bunntamas suggests on one hand that Megrahi was pleasant and well-liked, and could have charmed Maltese staff to overlook an extra bag and falsify the records. I have to say I really can't swallow this at all. But then she suggests that the Maltese police intimidated and threatened their own people to co-operate with this murderous Libyan plot. I choke on that one too, but in particular I want to know which is it? Foreign charm or home-grown threats? It's quite clear that no supernumerary bag could have been smuggled on board KM180 without the active co-operation of the Air Malta ground staff. Who was it who was in on this, and never squealed in all that time, despite the horrific consequences? How many of them? Did they tell the priest when they went to confession that they'd helped a Moslem terrorist murder 270 people? Who was the actual "bomber"? We know it wasn't Megrahi, because all he did was show up at the airport, check in, and catch his plane. Precisely why he was there or what role he played in the assumed plot, was never explained. No potential terrorist was identified as carrying out the air-side part of the plan, once Fhimah was shown not to have been at the airport that morning. Even if these charmed (or beaten) ground staff were all primed and ready to allow that extra bag on board and not count it, where did it materialise from? [If I've got any of this wrong, I'll take corrections. However, I want facts, not hand-waving about "well I think it would have been easy enough". It's quite clear it would have been extremely difficult not just to do it, but to do it and remain completely undetected.] If this actually happened, it's beyond masterly. It's right up there with the murder of Jill Dando in the annals of the untraceable crime. But then look at the rest of it.
However, was Megrahi a "dumb guy"? What do we know on that score?
What is it that's so compelling, that we have to believe in this extraordinarily tall tale? I simply don't see it. I would like Bunntamas to read this (sorry, lengthy) post in detail, considering every point. I'm entirely open to counter-arguments, but I have to say that the evidence presented so far has been in the same category as "Barry George must have murdered Jill Dando, did you see that picture of him in a gas mask brandishing a gun!" (Yes, and did you see the curtains, too?) Now call me simplistic, but I rather think the reason the investigation could find no trace of the bomb or the suitcase on Malta is that it never was on Malta. The reason Kurt Maier didn't spot a Toshiba radio-cassette bomb in an interline bag being loaded on PA103A is that there was no such thing in any of those bags. The reason the time of the explosion exactly matched the characteristics of the bombs Khreesat was making, is that it was one of the bombs Khreesat was making. OK, I have a simple mind. But that's how it looks to me. What am I missing? Rolfe. |
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6th October 2010, 06:41 PM | #247 |
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7th October 2010, 02:14 AM | #248 |
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Yes, of course. You know why that happened?
These witnesses co-operated at first. They gave interviews and statements. They described what happened that day. As I recall, they gave evidence to the civil action against Pan Am in the early 1990s. However, things went sour, and then from bad to worse. The investigators wouldn't take no for an answer. The more the evidence hung together that there was nothing untoward about the loading of KM180, the more convinced they became that (one, some, all, I don't know) the baggage handlers were lying. That one or more of them was indeed involved in the terrorist plot, had got a 56th bag on the plane and falsified the paperwork. The investigation became very intrusive indeed. People's private phone lines were tapped and their private conversations listened to. Mail was intercepted. I'm not sure, but I think polygraphs may even have been involved. Contacts and associates were followed up to try to establish some link between a baggage handler (any baggage handler) and Libya. They didn't find anything. They did, however, become extremely unpopular. The baggage handlers realised that nothing they could say would sway the investigators from their conviction that they were part of a criminal conspiracy, and that no absence of evidence would satisfy them that there was nothing to find. They got pretty cross. The whole thing escalated, to the point where the entire Lockerbie investigation team was thrown off the island for a short period. The block refusal to give evidence at Zeist was the end point of a campaign of harrassment on the part of the Lockerbie investigation, which resulted in the baggage handlers banding together to take, in effect, industrial action. They boycotted the trial. Very regrettable. But it isn't evidence. Indeed, the fact that the investigation was so intrusive and still failed to find even a shred of a hint of anyone having been involved in this plot is significant. Evidence was of course available. There were statements available from before the bad feeling blew up. There was evidence admitted to the Pan Am inquiry. I don't know how much of that was admitted at Zeist, but it exists. This isn't a black hole of silence surrounding a conspiracy, this is a massive foul-up caused by inappropriate investigation methods. If the investigators had had even a hint of evidence to charge any of these people with a crime, they'd have done it. They never found anything, in spite of all that. The absence of the baggage handlers from Zeist obviously makes it harder to follow exactly what happened. But it doesn't make it impossible. There is evidence from other Air Malta staff who did show up. There are their own earlier statements. So where is this hole in the evidence where the bomb bag could have been slipped in, that the Lockerbie investigation completely failed to identify? Rolfe. |
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7th October 2010, 02:43 AM | #249 |
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Thanks, Rolfe. All I can add about the Maltese problems (not an area I've looked at much) is this note on how the short exile ended.
It was that Granada docu-drama, also aired on HBO (co-produced). Sorry to again link to my blog, but there's detail there on it. The relevant part here is this:
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7th October 2010, 04:12 AM | #250 |
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It's an interesting sequence. We've decided on some extraordinarily weak evidence that there was an unaccompanied bag on KM180, and on no evidence at all that it was the bomb. Thus, the bomb must have been loaded at Luqa no matter what anyone there says. There was literally nothing the Maltese could say or do or produce in evidence that would convince this investigation otherwise. How do you prove a negative in this situation?
So we interview and we take statements and we do it all again and we investigate people and follow up their private business and listen to their private conversations, and still we find nothing. We get even more pushy, because we know that bomb went on there. But still nothing. It becomes obvious to these witnesses that they are actually suspects, and that the investigation is hell-bent on incriminating them. In the end, we piss off the people we're investigating so much that they tell us to bugger off and refuse, en masse, to co-operate any further. They boycott the trial. Hooray, a result! These people obviously have something to hide, we were right all along! I think part of the problem was the repeated legal findings that the bomb bag interlined into Frankfurt. The first one of these was the FAI, which was in progress during the events Caustic Logic described above - I think it ran from October 1990 to February 1991. No evidence even faintly suggestive of Malta was led at that inquiry. The Erac printout wasn't mentioned. Instead, the Frankfurt interline origin of the suitcase had to be inferred purely from the alleged positioning of the bag in the container. This inference was beyond tenuous. There simply isn't any evidence to support it at all. It is clear from the sheriff's findings that he has been told to arrive at that conclusion. Even more bizarrely, the evidence as to the positioning of the bags in AVE4041 led at the FAI is in direct contradiction to the evidence led at Zeist. Some of it is simply false, to the extent that I suspect deliberately false evidence on this point was advanced to get the desired conclusion even though the Erac printout was deemed to be inadmissible. How much that outcome influenced the Pan Am case, I don't know. By that time, everything the FAI had conveniently decided was much more set in stone. Bogomira Erac gave evidence (anonymously), and Malta was the key. Despite evidence from the Malta baggage handlers on that occasion, the Malta origin was rubber-stamped. It's not hard to see why. By that time, the investigation had identified an actual suspect at Luqa airport, and Giaka had entered the picture. Giaka saw Megrahi and Fhimah with the suitcase at Luqa, and he saw Megrahi priming the bomb and setting the timer, no less! So that settled it. The baggage handlers were definitely lying. Must have been. The indictments were issued in November 1991. The Pan Am lawsuit couldn't test Giaka's credibility of course, but was it really likely to find against the conclusions of the investigation that had led to the suspects being indicted and the Libyan stand-off? Hardly. Of course in both these inquiries, the defendant was Pan Am. Pan Am's only defence to this was to fall back on Aviv's drug bag-switch theory, which had been consigned to the Outer Darkness as a conspiracy theory, and nobody was going to listen. There was nothing in it for Pan Am to highlight the Bedford bag and a possible Heathrow introduction, because they would have been just as culpable in that situation. The official position was that Kurt Maier, employee of Alert Security, a wholly-owned subsidiary of Pan Am, had missed the bomb. But if the Bedford bag was the bomb, then what? Sulkash Kamboj, employee of Alert Security, a wholly-owned subsidiary of Pan Am, had missed the bomb. Hello, square one! The UK investigators were absolutely dead set against any suggestion that the bomb had been introduced at Heathrow - to the point where they concealed the evidence of the break-in from the Zeist court. And they controled the FAI. The Frankfurt end was reasonably happy with the interline theory, because security responsibility for that luggage was Pan Am's, not theirs. Pan Am was hung out to dry, but it would have been hung out to dry anyway. There was certainly no benefit to Pan Am from advancing the Heathrow introduction theory and shiffting the blame from Maier to Kamboj. They were on the hook either way. Thus the meme that this bomb was carried on KM180 became deeply ingrained in the mythology of the investigation. The FAI said so, the Pan Am case said so. John Bedford? Who he? Stalemate for eight years. We know someone at Luqa was lying, because Giaka saw it all. That's a fact, end of story. No need to consider any other explanation. The Luqa baggage handlers were invited to Zeist on the basis that they would be shown to be lying, because Giaka's evidence would prove that. No wonder they declined. By the time it was Giaka who was shown to be the liar, it was a bit late. Rolfe. |
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7th October 2010, 08:59 AM | #251 |
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I think it's also worth contrasting and highlighting the openness and willingness exhibited by the authorities and staff at Malta, certainly in the nascent stages of Malta being implicated, which bears in sharp contrast to the obstructive, suppressive, and quite frankly deceitful actions, of the authorities at Frankfurt and Heathrow.
Air Malta produced all records requested of them, which investigators then scrutinized, interviewing all the staff and even tracking down the passengers who flew on KM180. Luqa airport themselves also happily assisted the investigation and displayed the procedures and systems in place which demonstrated the rigorous baggage and passenger reconciliation performed before any flight departed. Meanwhile at Frankfurt, throughout the first 9 months of the investigation, tensions had reached near breaking point between the Scottish investigating team and the German authorities. Despite the main feeder flight for 103 originating at Frankfurt the day of the bombing, Frankfurt operating a sophisticated computer tracking system (designed to reduce passenger insurance claims from lost baggage at one of the world's busiest airports), a plethora of warnings of a bomb attack issued against that airport, and disseminated among relevant staff, and a bombmaker and gang had been uncovered just outside Frankfurt, the German's claimed that, after a week, all the records pertaining to that days baggage movement around the airport were purged, vanished, and gone, and nobody in the police or Frankfurt's security itself, had thought to secure the records before this had occurred. We now know this to be nothing more than a blatant lie. Apart from the conflicting evidence given by a German engineer who helped install and program the system at Frankfurt, which was due to be submitted at the second appeal, claiming that back-up tapes of the records were always kept, and it was a longer period than 7 days before the system would purge any of these records. We also know of German investigators who were "stepping up their investigation and security" only 6 days after the fall of 103, and there is also statements where German authorities became aware of an Iranian passenger who travelled on that feeder flight on the afternoon of the 21st, stayed in London and German law enforcement were awaiting his return at Frankfurt airport to question him on any connections to the bombing he may have had - on Christmas day, only 4 days after 103 had been bombed. And yet, the investigators from the Scottish police, representatives of Pan Am security and Heathrow security, were told there were no relevant records available from Frankfurt relating to that day to be examined. Only to then find out subsequent to all of this, the German's had fortuitously managed to obtain a copy of a single computer printout, showing an albeit small snapshot of that days baggage movements, but nonetheless it revealed the possible indication of an unaccompanied bag arriving at Frankfurt, and making it's way towards the feeder flight 103A. An unaccompanied bag, a cardinal sin to be loaded onto any airline, and should set alarm bells with any member of staff. Especially investigators searching for the possibility of a unacommpanied bag containing a bomb being interlined through Frankfurt airport. Warnings issued….a PLFP cell uncovered with radio bombs primed with barometric timers?? So, what did the German authorities do with this absolutely crucial piece of information they have managed to obtain after all the frustration of having not secured the original records apparently? Well, they then sit on this information for nearly 8 months and don't tell a soul, and then suddenly produce it 8 months later. They had had this printout, showing an apparent unaccompanied bag, since February of 1989, and didn't tell anyone let alone pass it to the appropriate investigation team. Utterly bizarre is being kind, and to be highly sceptical is only natural. Heathrow were hardly better. Security on the whole at the airport was woefully inadequate, which was openly admitted by all concerned. Security passes for airside access were unaccounted for, the baggage holding sheds were left completely unattended for long periods before loading baggage on the aircraft were commonplace, and the tight schedules, notably between the arrival of the feeder 103A and departure of the Jumbo 103 to New York, which was at best about 20-30mins, also wouldn’t allow for any security checks to be performed on any baggage that was due to be transferred between the two flights. One such passenger boarding at Heathrow is testament to this as he missed the call for the flight, but his bag, now unaccompanied, remained on board 103 as its wheels left the Heathrow runway. Interviews taken early into the investigation revealed a worrying account given by 103's chief baggage loader John Bedford that he had observed the addition of two unknown suitcases, which he had questioned his colleague on at the time, in the container which was identified by the investigation to have been the container which had contained the explosive device. Worse still, he had told investigators, that at least one of these bags was a bown/bronze Samsonite style suitcase. To confound all these evident transgressions, a breach of security at the Pan Am gate had also been reported earlier on the 21st by a Heathrow security guard, and this break-in was then suppressed from the investigation and from all the evidence presented at the original trial at Zeist, until 2001 after the trial had concluded. There's certainly room for harsh and justifiable criticism's of these two airports procedures, systems and staff indiscretions as discovered by much of the investigation. Thus, if any airport or airlines staff are to be berated and have suspicion cast upon them, I would suggest that Luqa and the Air Malta officials are not the ones for this to be vented towards. Suspicions and fingers should, quite evidently and reasonably, be pointed at the other two airports involved in this atrocity. |
7th October 2010, 02:38 PM | #252 |
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Those are very good points, Buncrana. It's been a feature of the investigation that the airports with the diabolical security flaws and the actual, demonstrable evidence of a cover-up, are given an incredibly easy ride. The one that had the documentation for that day and could show procedures had been followed - that's the one they decide to go for.
The Maltese origin of the clothes and the apparent provenance of B8849 seem to have dazzled the investigators completely. And this was well before the switch of the focus from the PFLP-GC to Libya. The original hypothesis was that the PFLP-GC had interoduced the bomb at Malta. They worried and worried at Malta to the exclusion of all else. But B8849 could easily have been a coding anomaly. And a case-full of clothes can go twice round the world in a month. Or even in two weeks. But it wasn't in the Brits' interest to look at Heathrow, and the Germans weren't letting anyone look at Frankfurt, so they kept at it. Then they found a plausible suspect there. But I sometimes wonder. If they had investigated every passenger checking in for a flight at Frankfurt about three o'clock, or every passenger checking in for a flight at Heathrow a couple of hours later, what would they have found? Not necessarily anyone actually linked to the bombing, but how many plausible suspects might they have found, plausible suspects who could somehow have a case built up against them. Yes, I wonder. Rolfe. |
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8th October 2010, 01:01 PM | #253 |
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A Scottish parliament e-Petition has been opened, calling for a full public inquiry into the Zeist conviction.
I have started a thread on this in the Current Affairs forum area. Rolfe. ETA: The petition asks for the country of the signatory. Choices are Scotland, England, Wales, N. Ireland or Other. Those entering Other are then asked to enter their country as free-text. Sir Teddy Taylor has checked "Other" then entered "United Kingdom". Aw, bless! |
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8th October 2010, 02:48 PM | #254 |
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So, how do you think it will stand up against other previously (pro Megrahi) failed petitions and polls such as this one - I gather that one didn't turn out as hoped. And this one Wow. Eighteen signatures.
I'll save the embarrassement of posting Charles' poll, which garnered, I think much less than 50 signatures. Which one was it that also failed? I'm losing count. You know, the one on / to which CL was so boasting about posting his name? Maybe it was the one noted above, in the Firm article, on which CL's name doesn't appear, that got snubbed. And in contrast, have a look at the the number of signatures on this one and this one. Hmmmmm..... Can't wait to see how this latest one turns out. Maybe the polls will change as a result of the media that Swire has been [expletive]ing lately. Time will tell. And by the way, where is the Megrahi / Megrahi family, any other Libyan, or Maltese supporter signature on any of the pro Megrahi petitions? Why are they absent and their absence un-noted here, or anywhere else for that matter? |
8th October 2010, 03:20 PM | #255 |
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Just noticed your new thread on this Rolfe, so I'll bump this comment there as well.
~B |
8th October 2010, 03:25 PM | #256 |
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8th October 2010, 03:34 PM | #257 |
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Agreed. It's an uphill battle for the "Megrahi is innocent" side. Sad to see everyone here putting so much effort into what you all believe, regardless of whether or not I agree. I commend you for your efforts (when they're not snide) But, it seems, no longer how much, or for how long you regurgitate the issues and points, for now, the case is what it is, per the judgment and appeal (again, regardless of outside court opinion and non-heard 2nd appeal), and it would appear that, per previous polls the public, internationally, have spoken. We'll see what happens with the latest.
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8th October 2010, 03:43 PM | #258 |
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8th October 2010, 03:44 PM | #259 |
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Conversation on poll comments I made here moved to Rolfe's new thread in current affairs, noted above.
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8th October 2010, 03:45 PM | #260 |
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Huh, a poll in this forum, which is mainly populated by Americans who know nothing about the case except what they hear on the US media! Er, I don't think you get that. That letter wasn't open for anyone to sign. It was only signed by people who were invited, as having sufficient standing in the matter. I see they even left out a couple of pushy nonentities who were trying to muscle in on it. Well, if you don't post the links I can't comment. However, you know what I think of Charles. Newspaper comments pages full of loudmouthed ignorant Americans. Gosh, what a lot of them there are! Well, you're wrong for a start, because I noticed a couple of Libyan names on the open letter. I see one already on this new petition. This is a Scottish thing though, it's only natural most signatories will be Scots. As for Megrahi's family, do you really think that would be appropriate? Where will this go? Probably nowhere, because the committee is perfectly at liberty to chuck the thing in the bucket if it feels like it, and it probably will. However, that doesn't constitute proof Megrahi is gulty any more than the other peripheral irrelevancies that have been brought up. You know, Bunntamas, when a campaign is mounted against government inertia and complacency, it's usualy the case that many initiatives are ignored. That's life. One just tries another initiative. Sneering that such initiatives haven't immediately caused the walls of Jericho to collapse isn't much of a win. Why are you so set against having the findings of the SCCRC properly tested in court? Rolfe. |
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8th October 2010, 03:57 PM | #261 |
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Okay, I was trying to follow "protocol" by furthering comments in the new forum you linked above, but it looks like we're continuing here.
Ummm.... if the poll is mainly populated by "Americans who know nothing about the case..." why was the poll created in that forum? Sufficient standing according to whom? You think CL has sufficient standing in the matter? LOL! And so what. It still failed. Ha! Yep, I do know. Didn't think it was productive to go down that rabbit hole. Hence I didn't post the link. Yikes. I agree Americans can be loud mouthed and ignorant. However, think the same argument could be made for Scots and Brits. And have you forgotten that PA103 was mostly occupied by Americans who have been rightly outraged about the atrocity and the following events? I've seen many nasty, ignorant, loudmouthed comments (which seem to out number the Americans') by scots and brits who have zero involvement in this case. But we digress..... Okay, I'l give ya the "couple of Libyans" How many of them are Megrahi's family? Friends? As for "this is a Scottish thing", wow. If that's so, how is it that Libyans have signed it? Do you think the entire world revolves around scotland on this issue? Do you think that Megrahi and his other supporters, the ugly Americans and the rest of the world are not capable of news, internet and other media? Do you doubt that Swire, Black, Megrahi's counsel and others close to him are keeping Megrahi and his family abreast of this? If I were Megrahi's kin, I would be doing everything I could, to fight for my father, brother, son, whatever he is to his family in order keep this in the front of the media and not let this die. That's what I did for my father. Guess what. We got an ivestigation, a trial, and we are still fighting. Yes, I have seen the points in objection on the former. Not the point here. Point is, why aren't Megrahi's family and friends fighting harder? I stood next to his wife in the ladies room at the trial. I wanted to catch her eye and give her a look of understanding that we're all in this together, and that I didn't blame her for whatever her husband did. She looked at her shoes then, and throughout the entire trial, when she wasn't watching what was happening beyond the glass in the court room. I'm sure she was counseled not to look at other family members, and I recognize cultural issues about not looking at others in the eye. Still.... Why not??? His daughter has stated in the media that she wants to study law as an inspiration by what her father has been through. And Megrahi himself published (or had published by others) a bleeding web site with all of his arguments. If he really wants to portray his innocence, why isn't he and/ or his family fighting as hard as all of the involved families are, much less folks like those here on JREF, Black's blog, those who comment in the media who aren't even involved in this case? Well, I for one, would like to see more about the pubilc opinion at this stage in the game, as well as what influence if any, Swire's recent letters in the media have had and prior to the second appeal being dropped, I still wanted to see the alleged evidence that was to be presented by the defense. The American family members did not sit still and allow their government to simply "chuck the thing". I, along with my fellow family members lobbied our government. I wrote countless letters. I bent the ears of as many as I could find who might help move our case forward. I went to the UN. My family hired attorneys before any settlement money from Libya, taking that risk that if we lost, we would have to pay legal fees. Even after our case was thrown out of court on Foreign Soverein Immunities actions. Guess what. We continued fighting, and got that legislation ammended. And we got our day in court. Because we believed in what we were doing and persevered. I find it very sad. I have a great deal of respect and warmth in my heart for the Scots who treated my mother and me with such warmth when we visited Lockerbie. They could have just as easily been resentful toward the Americans and their airliner who rained chaos, death and destruction on their small town. I was very fearful of this upon our arrival. But they weren't that way at all. They were beyond kind and supportive. However, going forward other Scots and Brits who support Megrahi sit by and waste their time bitching on the internet as opposed to actually getting involved and doing something with and about their government. So, again, it's doubtful, but we'll see if this petition proves anything. |
8th October 2010, 04:09 PM | #262 |
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8th October 2010, 04:30 PM | #263 |
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Deleted, because I think this is a complete digression that's going nowhere.
Caustic Logic is right. Why do you think Megrahi is behaving the way he is? And as an ancillary question, is there any way he could behave, or could have behaved in the past, that you wouldn't declare supported your assertion that he's guilty? Forum polls and newspaper comments pages do not a coherent argument make. Rolfe. |
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8th October 2010, 04:47 PM | #264 |
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8th October 2010, 04:52 PM | #265 |
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Bunntamas, could I counsel a deep breath and a step back? You noted that in your fight, you had setbacks, you lost at one stage. I don't think anyone was pointing fingers at you, calling you pathetic and sneering "LOL" at the time though.
The petition is only a petition. It shouldn't and doesn't threaten you. It's only been open since this morning. It's gone from about 120 signatures to 210 while I've been posting on the forum. It's a bit early to be pointing and sneering, whatever. I don't know why you're so angry. The petition is only asking for an independent inquiry into the verdict. Why does this upset you so much? Rolfe. |
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8th October 2010, 04:57 PM | #266 |
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I asked you first. No, I asked you first.... really? must we dance down the adolescent CL path? I Dunno why Megrahi hasn't come forth, outside of the obvious that he is allegedly ill. BUt that's no excuse for his family not to fight for him. Maybe they're just happy he's home and they want to crawl beneathe the sidewalk (or sand dune, or whatever) and be done with all of this. I know there were many times my family and I wanted to say, this is killing us. Let's just give up. But we didn't. Maybe in Megrahi's case, coward is,a s coward does, and it'a trickle down effect into the family.
Sorry if that doesn't adhere to your Am I now not allowed to state my position? Geez. SO, back to the initial question that I asked, which was: why isn't Megrahi and / or his family stepping up? What do you think? |
8th October 2010, 05:04 PM | #267 |
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Thanks Rolfe. Your counsel is always appreciated.
Ummmmm... I think CL has made some very sneering remarks, both here and on his blog, which he has since removed, appologized for, and contradicted his apology by stating that he was "mad" at me. And yes, I think that deserves a LOL. That is all I was referring to in my above remarks. It wasn't meant to create a whole new row. It was simply meant to, as you counsel, please move forward sans sneer. Oh, I'm not at all threatened by the petition. In fact I'm quite looking forward to the results, and whether or not opinion has changed, per past petitions and polls, and as a reault of recent (noted above) media events. Seriously, I'm not angry. I'm just expressing my views. Sorry if I come across that way. |
8th October 2010, 05:07 PM | #268 |
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You want the honest truth? I don't think the Libyan government wants the conviction overturned. I think the Libyan government was putting pressure on him to withdraw the appeal. I think that's what the bizarre terms of that PTA were all about - to allow Libya to pressurise Megrahi to drop the appeal. I think he thought he could go home and continue a campaign to demonstrate his innocence, but after he published some initial parts of his defence material he was told to stop it. Why? Politics. The world has moved on in the past 10 years - no, the past 20. Libya doesn't want the clock turned back, it doesn't want the USA angered even more, it wants to move on. It doesn't want to re-open old wounds and de-stabilise the international agreements it has negotiated in recent years. That's what I honestly think. Of course it's speculation, but you did ask. Rolfe. |
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8th October 2010, 05:24 PM | #269 |
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I sympathise with you very much indeed, you know that. But some of us, myself and Buncrana in particular, have posted reams of stuff in this thread that we hoped you were reading, commentary and exposition on the evidence, and you didn't post apart from highlighting the industrial action the Maltese baggage handlers took when they collectively decided to boycott Zeist. We commented on that too, and explained the background to their decision. It was regrettable, but I can see why they felt the way they did. They realised that Giaka's statements about having seen Megrahi and Fhimah with the bomb on Malta were going to be used to brand them not just as liars but as complicit in the plot. They were absolutely furious about not being believed, and the increasing intrusiveness of the inquiry even though nothing was being found. They may even have been afraid. We posted all that, and you still didn't respond. Busy, I thought. She has studying to do. She has a life. She'll read it and come to comment when she's ready. But then this e-Petition is started, and suddenly Bunntamas bursts all over two threads, posting furiously, and I'm not even sure what your point is to be honest. Would you think better of everyone if the petition hadn't been started? OK, we've done some go-out-and-come-in-again before, we can do it again. I'll just observe, mildly, that Caustic Logic doesn't have a monopoly on sneering round here. And that in this thread, recently, he hasn't said anything to justify censure as far as I can see. So if you have a gripe with him, take it outside. OK, let's go out and come in again. I would far rather discuss the evidence than post sterile back-and- forth about whose online poll trumps some other online poll. As I said, I'm not expecting this petition to achieve anything much on its own. These e-Petitions are just a device for the parliament to make the plebs think it's listening. This one is just another way to keep the profile up. The government and the opposition parties are absolutely adamant that Megrahi's appeal will never be heard, and that there will never be an inquiry, and it will take more than this to change their minds. Rolfe the realist. |
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8th October 2010, 05:47 PM | #270 |
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Nope. Didn't comment. Sorry. I tried going back into my reams of stuff that I've collected over the years. Depression overcame me, and I recognized that I had spent many years on this and was headed down a very dark path...again. I know My father would want me to move on and have a life beyond dwelling on his death.
That, and A) Yes, I just don't have the time to debate with you all at the lengths and detail to which you require and B) it just wasn't worth it to re-hash all of the stuff that has already posted here and elsewhere over many years, and still not come to any tangible results on your end. Bottom line is, neither of us has hard evidence about the loading of the bag at Malta. Neither did the court. Combined evidence, as the court concluded, however, in my opinion still speaks volumes. Maybe not to you, but to me and others, I believe it does. Noting my above comments, I already stated that I'm looking forward to the results of the petition. So, I don't understand why you're posing the question about me possibly thinking that the petition shouldn't have been started. I don't think that. And I never said it. My interests lie in moving forward. Thus, if something new arises on the case, I will jump in. I will comment about points and issues going forward. Again, I see no point (as I've noted numerous times in comments past) in re-hashing points that have been covered for twenty plus years. My goal is to comment on what may create results. I don't think my comments above were either "bursting" or "furious". In fact I think they were quite heart felt, even agreeing with CL in one of them. Perhaps they were viewed as "furious" because I have backed off and not commented to such an extent in awhile. Might I counsel you in backing off in accusations of my alleged bursting out in fury and your reaction to my comments a bit, please? Got it. You chose to elaborate on the request that I made not to "sneer" (and by the way, he has not been so innocent in his recent posts - yet I have ignored him), and I explained. That's it. End of story. Good lord, can we move past this already? Well, I believe the poll was created by Robert Black's Justice for Megrahi Foundation....Group, or whatever it's called. Per your comment above, do you think he has, or is a "device for parliament?" Hmmmm...... |
8th October 2010, 05:56 PM | #271 |
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Bunntamas, anyone can apply to the parliament to ask them to put up an e-Petition. It's a device the parliament has introduced to make it look as if it's listening to the proles. You make of it what you can. The Justice for Megrahi committee has decided to mount an e-Petition. They clearly think "every little helps" to keep the case in the public view.
However, the parliament, with a few individual exceptions, is absolutely adamant that it will not have that appeal heard, or give the relatives the independent inquiry they've been petitioning for since 1989. For whatever reason, I believe because they don't want to have the justice system look stupid, and they absolutely categorically don't want to re-open 270 murder cases. So the committee can take a look at it and say, OK we looked, no way. And that's what will happen. Rolfe. |
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8th October 2010, 06:04 PM | #272 |
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Sad.
I'm not familiar with Scots law. Here in the US democracy means that if enough people bitch loud enough, and long enough, and push our representatives hard enough, we can accomplish changes in our laws and actions by the people we've elected to lead our country. No offense, but I had no idea Scotland was such a dictatorship. |
8th October 2010, 06:12 PM | #273 |
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Now that's certainly true. I hope you do have a life, though. If this is depressing you, then obviously it's not good. No, nobody has any evidence at all about any Malta bag, and that's a fact. If the combined evidence speaks volumes to you, could you explain these volumes to the rest of us? Did you read my post about Barry George? The combined evidence was supposed to have spoken volumes there too. He had previous convictions, he was a borderline stalker, he was obsessed with the military and guns, lots of other stuff. And there was that dreadful photograph, which looks quite appalling. All that was true, but he still didn't kill Jill Dando. I think you're doing the same with Megrahi. I think you're focussing on the peripherals, some of which are true but some of which may not be, when what is lacking is a concrete connection to the actual crime. However, I'm open to be persuaded otherwise, if you will try to put your case. I don't envisage any progress, then. The discussion in this thread is regarding whether or not Megrahi was involved in bombing the plane. If you don't want to address any of the points I or others are making, then it's a bit futile. Oh dear, two nations divided by a common language. "Bursting" as in suddenly half a dozen posts after a week's silence, "furious" as in typing "fast and furious". That's all. Oh, please! I commented earlier that I hoped that we appreciate where you're coming from and how you feel, and I also hoped that you understood now where we're coming from. We genuinely believe Megrahi has been a victim of a miscarriage of justice, and we're more than a little hacked off at the official blind eye that's being turned to the whole thing. We're also deeply disturbed that the real terrorists have been able to get away with this atrocity for more than 20 years, because the politicians don't find it convenient to look at the truth. Now I propose to respect your position, and I hope in return you will respect mine. Rolfe. |
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8th October 2010, 06:17 PM | #274 |
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Mmm, I've read enough in the US Politics section to suspect it's not quite as easy.... But sure, in Westminster they will just give topics they don't want to address the body-swerve, and that's the end of it. Pressure groups have variable success depending on how well aligned their aims are with the aims of the party in power. I had hoped it would be better, not necessarily in Holyrood, but with an SNP government. I'm deeply disappointed by the way they've handled the Megrahi case. Rolfe. |
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8th October 2010, 06:19 PM | #275 |
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Okay. Language and all that. And yes, I do have a life. Sorry. I didn't realize you all were waiting with baited breath for my next comment "after a week's silence" Sigh.
I deeply respect your opinion. It saddens me that your government will not listen to its people, and seemingly (and I may be wrong here, but) that the people may not be doing enough to make the government listen. And I thank you for respecting my opinion. But with comments like "oh please!" it's difficult to to maintain rapport. Again, sad. |
8th October 2010, 06:27 PM | #276 |
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Well, considering the fact that MacAskill and you have clearly stated that this is a Scottish matter, then I'm not sure how Westminster figures in. Unless of course there was that alleged deal. And of course the points you've made above about Megrahi being stifled by his government. Oh, what a wicked web.
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8th October 2010, 06:33 PM | #277 |
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This is where I was going with the Malta baggage question. It's from a documentary that was aired in 1998, before the Zeist trial.
Originally Posted by Silence over Lockerbie
Essentially, Air Malta have done everything they can. They have a secure system for handling and checking luggage, and they keep records, and all these records were present and correct. Repeated, intensive investigation found nothing to put a dent in it. In contrast, all the Frankfurt records disappeared within days of the disaster. Nothing was supplied to the investigation. Then a full eight months later, the Frankfurt police produced a tiny excerpt of the records they said had been retained privately. Although they said they'd had that since January, they didn't produce it until August. This excerpt was much too restricted to allow the data to be properly interpreted. The suggestion of a possible bag from Malta was tenuous, at best. The absence of the full set of records meant that this could neither be confirmed nor denied. The investigators chose to prefer this partial, unclear and frankly questionable record from Frankfurt to the full, clear and open records from Malta. Because Cannistraro has decided that the entire Malta staff has been suborned. As Mansfield says, it's extraordinary. There's nothing the Maltese staff can possibly say or do that will be believed. Is it any wonder they made a collective decision to boycott Zeist? Rolfe. |
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8th October 2010, 06:35 PM | #278 |
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8th October 2010, 06:39 PM | #279 |
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Oh... Duhh.... Sorry. Thought you were commenting about me... my comments.... about comments.....blahhheerrrrbbbhhh....
Anyone got a good joke to lighten things up here? How 'bout: "a guy walks into a bar in the late 80's with a bombeat radio....." Sorry. Bad. Bunny. Sick Bunny. Bad, BAD Bunny. |
8th October 2010, 06:42 PM | #280 |
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Well, the e-Petition is one thing to try. But the system isn't easy to work. Jim Swire seems to have worn himself down trying to get what he sees as justice. Of course, there are far fewer British victims to bear the load than there are US. I was going to say, for which we might be thankful, but that's not true. It doesn't matter which nationality you are, you're all victims. I was commenting on UK politics. The Westminster parliament is a very difficult ship to turn, as I said. That was the parliament the UK victims' families fought to a standstill for ten years, and got nowhere. The first refusal of a full inquiry happened in 1989. The Scottish parliament wasn't even inaugurated until 1999. The first two governments there were Labour, just like the Westminster government was. No chance of much change then. And they're all a bunch of tenth-rate town councillors anyway. Then the SNP got in in 2007. I genuinely hoped for better, and it has been better, but then when the Lockerbie business blew up again last year, they behaved just as badly as Labour had, and the Conservatives before them. Sigh. Rolfe. |
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