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Tags Abdelbaset Ali al-Megrahi , Lockerbie bombing , Pan Am 103

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Old 15th September 2009, 01:55 AM   #241
Caustic Logic
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
Caustic - what I'm about to suggest is strictly speaking naughty, but if you search this thread (and the other one in Social Issues) for residue, MEBO and Thurman , you'll get an intro to the timer issues. I'm sure Rolfe will add very worthwhile stuff later.
Yes, I can read your invisible ink. The secret advice is good, but I'm also waiting for the movie version.
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Old 15th September 2009, 11:31 AM   #242
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Originally Posted by Caustic Logic View Post
[....] I'm also waiting for the movie version.

The Maltese Double Cross (2hrs 30min, and actually quite hard to follow despite having won a film festival prize)

Lockerbie and the CIA (Aspect ratio problem, but interesting and watchable)

The Conspirady Files: Lockerbie (This BBC production seems a bit too trusting of the Official Version in one or two places.)

Flight into Darkness Part 1

Flight into Darkness Part 2

The Lockerbie Cover-up (shortened version of "Flight into Darkness", but with extra material at the end)

Take your pick. All professional journalism, not a Dylan Avery in sight.

Rolfe.
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Old 15th September 2009, 09:07 PM   #243
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Originally Posted by Caustic Logic View Post
I thought his description didn't match? Why would he then pick the right guy when presented with multiples? That's a little complicating.
Originally Posted by Time
Its owner, a man named Tony Gauci, identifies al-Megrahi in a police lineup.
in June 07 the Scottish Criminal Cases Review Commission publishes it's review of the case and refers it back to the High Court for appeal. It cites as one of the major reasons it believes there to have been a miscarriage of justice.

Originally Posted by SCCRC
Additional evidence, not made available to the defence, which indicates
that four days prior to the identification parade at which Mr Gauci
picked out the applicant, he saw a photograph of the applicant in a
magazine article linking him to the bombing. In the Commission’s view
evidence of Mr Gauci’s exposure to this photograph in such close
proximity to the parade undermines the reliability of his identification of
the applicant at that time and at the trial itself.
[ link ] (pdf) (bolding mine)

Other reasons include more evidence regarding the Christmas lights coming to light which further reinforce the case that the clothes Megrahi was supposed to have bought on 7th December couldn't have been bought at that time, and must not have been bought by him at all.

Originally Posted by Time
Files for an appeal in 2001, claiming new evidence about a break-in at London's Heathrow Airport the night before the crash suggests the bomb could have been placed by anyone. His appeal is unanimously rejected
interesting to note that Time is sure to mention he was "unanimously convicted" (doesn't mention the fact that there was no jury) is sure to mention his appeal that was "unanimously rejected" and throws up the words "conspiracy theorists" when talking about other theories, anyway...

Originally Posted by Robert Black QC
how was it possible for the appeal court to fail to overturn the conviction? The Criminal Appeal Court dismissed Megrahi's appeal on the most technical of technical legal grounds: it did not consider the justifiability of the trial court's factual findings at all (though it is clear from their interventions during the Crown submissions in the appeal that at least some of the judges were only too well aware of how shaky certain crucial findings were and how contrary to the weight of the evidence).
- Robert Black, QC, FRSE, Professor Emeritus of Scots Law at the University of Edinburgh, "Architect" of the Lockerbie Trial - [ link ] (bolding mine)

in a report to the UN, their appointed observer, Hans Koechler, writes:

Quote:
For unexplained reasons, the Defense refused to give any information whatsoever. ... [the presence of politically alligned representatives in court for both prosecution and defense] gave the entire proceedings an aura of international politics that is not appropriate for an independent court. ... The appeal proceedings were further overshadowed by at least two meetings between Libyan, U.S. and U.K. intelligence-cum-political officials in the United Kingdom during the period of the appeal. According to reliable media reports and official U.S. statements, those meetings dealt with the issue of Libya’s acceptance of responsibility for the Lockerbie bombing and with her obligation for compensation – at a time when the matter was still sub judice in an independent court. In the highly politicized context of the Lockerbie case, these meetings may have been prejudicial to the outcome of the appeal. The urgent press release issued by the appellant’s Libyan defense lawyer on 28 January 2002 was factually wrong in its reference to alleged “UN demands that Libya pays [sic] compensation for the bombing” and did nothing to dispel the suspicions. ... [lots more detail] ... On the basis of the above observations and evaluation it can be stated that the appeal proceedings were not fair (and thus not in conformity with the requirements of Art. 6 Par. 1 of the European Human Rights Convention
read the whole report here

The id parade and the clothes are pretty much the entire basis for convicting Megrahi, and both of these pieces of evidence are hugely suspect.

They tried to use Abdul Majid Giaka as a star witness. A known CIA asset in Libya. 1st June 2000 the prosecution has full access to CIA cables detailing communications to and from Giaka and his CIA handlers, they fight hard to restrict access to these files to the defense counsel and tell the court there's nothing in them that can impinge on the credibilty of Giaka, or that is relevant to the case. 22 August they are ordered to hand over these unedited cables. The defense destroys Giaka under cross examination using the info in the cables, expose him as a liar, all of his evidence is thrown out, leaving he entire prosecution case pretty much resting on the purchase of the clothes. It's alleged that Giaka was to be paid $2million for giving evidence.


Then his first appeal is rejected after he does not get proper defense council, and the appeal proceedings themselves are undermined by political moves to force Libya to pay compensation. Libya finally offers to pay $2.7Billion some 15 days after the 1st Megrahi appeal was rejected.

It's a spectacular miscarriage of justice and a huge sweeping under the rug of the large can of worms that overturning it would open.
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Old 15th September 2009, 11:11 PM   #244
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Originally Posted by Ambrosia View Post
in June 07 the Scottish Criminal Cases Review Commission publishes it's review of the case and refers it back to the High Court for appeal. It cites as one of the major reasons it believes there to have been a miscarriage of justice.
Quote:
Mr Gauci’s exposure to this photograph
And the Time article didn't even ignore the fact, I just missed it on first read. Someone else opinionated but well conversant and "obsessed" with the case, welcome! That isn't you, is it Rolfe? Anyway, you're right about the article's tone.

Quote:
interesting to note that Time is sure to mention he was "unanimously convicted" (doesn't mention the fact that there was no jury) is sure to mention his appeal that was "unanimously rejected" and throws up the words "conspiracy theorists" when talking about other theories, anyway...
It's still got the dismissal tone but it's notably thin. One gets the impression this could well snowball into a new investigation, etc. and change the history books, or still wind up getting all back under the rug. I think the deciding factor will be politics again - like how bad does anyone want to reclaim this case to instantly pin back on Iran/Syria to get some leverage there.

Quote:
in a report to the UN, their appointed observer, Hans Koechler, writes:
Quote:
For unexplained reasons, the Defense refused to give any information whatsoever. ...
The Defense not being able or willing to capitalize on the deficiencies of the evidence is indeed a puzzle. Eventually I'd like to get some insight into what happened there.

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Old 15th September 2009, 11:14 PM   #245
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Originally Posted by Caustic Logic View Post
Yes, I can read your invisible ink. The secret advice is good, but I'm also waiting for the movie version.
Oh and for the record that program is up now. Thanks for the video links too, I'll check some of those out sometime soon.
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Old 16th September 2009, 07:21 AM   #246
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Rolfe:

Are you aware of a book by Goddard and Coleman described here called "Trail of the Octopus"

according to the blog linked above:

Quote:
The publication of Coleman's book "Trail of the Octopus" was halted by U.S. federal courts because of DIA claims of libel. ... While attempting to clear his book for publication, Coleman submitted an affidavit that a bag of heroin, bound for a U.S. Drug Enforcement Agency (DEA) drug sting, was switched for a bag of explosives on Pan Am 103. A federal judge declared it false and ordered Coleman arrested for perjury. He was released several months later and fled to Sweden where he was granted political asylum. Coleman was later subpoenaed to testify at the Lockerbie trial, but was prevented since he had been found guilty of perjury as part of the court proceedings to block the publication of his book. He was later cleared of perjury by a court of appeal. The judges issued a sealed ruling, which meant that Coleman and his lawyers couldn't read why his conviction was overturned.

Since publication was blocked in the USA, Coleman declared his book public domain ...
presumably as it was declared public domain, it's available online. [ here ]
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Old 16th September 2009, 10:20 AM   #247
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Thanks, Ambrosia. You're well ahead of me I think. I've been aware of the doubts for years, though not conversant with the details. I was ill at the time of the Camp Zeist trial, and not living in Scotland, but I did pick up the huge disappointment that our justice system had perpetrated a kangaroo court.

I read various articles and bought one (very poor) book about it, but I didn't have any real grasp of the evidence until a few months ago. It took the USA's outrage at Megrahi's release when I was aware of some very credible sources who declared that the USA actually framed the guy, to galvanise me into starting to read up about it.

I remember hearing about Trail of the Octopus, but I'm not familiar with it. I was trying to avoid the drugs and the missing body and the LIHOP until I at least had my head round the basics. Giaka and Gauci are relatively straightforward, but the timer fragment is a different story.

I was hoping to find posters here who knew enough about it to guide me through the melange of evidence and fabrication, but it doesn't seem to be a CT the forum is familiar with. Please keep posting!

Rolfe.
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Old 16th September 2009, 11:24 AM   #248
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
I was hoping to find posters here who knew enough about it to guide me through the melange of evidence and fabrication, but it doesn't seem to be a CT the forum is familiar with.
Metoo. I have only been investigoogling for a couple of weeks after coming across alternative theories since all the furore in the news recently.

It's proving very hard to sort fecal from factual.

I have a little time to spare at the moment so I'm dredging through loads of material, trying to post facts with solid sources, and not speculate too much about anything, it's not easy.

Libya and Ghadaffi has motive to carry out the attacks, also have the means and opportunity to do so.

The problem is there is no evidence to link Libya with PA103, at least none that I've found yet that doesn't involve a fragment of timer.

There is evidence from Mebo that destroys the case against Libya, but the owner of Mebo himself is on record stating that Ghadaffi offered him 200million to "get Megrahi out" - which taints it.

There are reports making a much stronger case against Iran, including the former President of Iran admitting responsibility.

There are whistleblower police chiefs who admit to fabricating evidence.

There is the FBI man who's record was very sloppy, who IDed the fragment in the first place. Along with all the chain of custody issues, and oddities surrounding the fragment....

I plan on doing a little more digging and googlefu and then posting up a hypothesis that I can test against what evidence I find.
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Old 16th September 2009, 12:08 PM   #249
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Originally Posted by Ambrosia View Post
The problem is there is no evidence to link Libya with PA103, at least none that I've found yet that doesn't involve a fragment of timer.

I'm not sure the fragment of timer does it on its own. The PFLP-GC could have had access to similar timers through the Stazi, for exampe. It was while thinking about that one that the sheer does-not-compute of the detonation time hit me. Even supposing it was Khreesat who got his mitts on an MST-13 unit, why would he set it for 7pm and not midnight?

Originally Posted by Ambrosia View Post
There is evidence from Mebo that destroys the case against Libya, but the owner of Mebo himself is on record stating that Ghadaffi offered him 200million to "get Megrahi out" - which taints it.

Indeed. And Bollier is undoubtedly a slippery customer. However, the CIA was running around openly offering $4 million to anyone who would give evidence to convict Megrahi and/or Fhimah, so where does that leave any of the evidence?

Bollier is still banging the "Megrahi was framed" drum even now though, when he can hardly espect anything from Gadaffi.

Originally Posted by Ambrosia View Post
There are reports making a much stronger case against Iran, including the former President of Iran admitting responsibility.

There are whistleblower police chiefs who admit to fabricating evidence.

There is the FBI man who's record was very sloppy, who IDed the fragment in the first place. Along with all the chain of custody issues, and oddities surrounding the fragment....

And there was a suitcase of drugs and a missing body and a red tarpaulin and a white helicopter and CIA operatives and a bunch of VIPs pulled off the plane at the last minute and all the rest of it.

Originally Posted by Ambrosia View Post
I plan on doing a little more digging and googlefu and then posting up a hypothesis that I can test against what evidence I find.

That was sort of my objective too, but there's so much there it could take me a couple of years to assimilate it all. And if it was that easy, then why haven't the "Lockerbie experts" got there already?

I'd still like to be able to postulate some sort of Agatha Christie-style explanation that includes all the bullet points, but it's a challenge. And with so many of the theories getting to a LIHOP one way or another it's hard to know how far down the rabbit hole it's rational to go. I mean, de Braeckeleer thinks the bomb didn't go off in the luggage container but much nearer the skin of the airliner, and where does that go if you follow it? Sabitage of the actual airliner, there's where. But if we give that one a body swerve, should we therefore reject all the evidence de Baeckeleer presents?

That's why I was so surprised to see nothing else on this forum about it. There is a semi-credible LIHOP here involving the CIA, the FBI and one POTUS G. Bush. I find it hard to understand why we don't have hordes of twoofers declaring that as they did it to Pan Am 103, then obviously 9/11 would have been right in character.

Rolfe.
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Old 17th September 2009, 04:05 PM   #250
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Am posting this in this thread as it's not really to do with MST-13.

Rolfe:

Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
The German police raided that cell in September of 1988, took them into custody and seized four assembled bombs made of Toshiba radio-cassette players clearly intended to be used against aircraft.

The reason they were obviously intended to hit aircraft is that they were triggered by "ice-cube" timers attached to aneroid barometers, which would be inert indefinitely at sea level, but would explode 35 to 45 minutes after taking off in an aircraft.
Whats your source for this?

I was recently reading "Trail of the Octopus" - Colemans book wherein he describes the raid by the BKA known as operation "Autumn Leaves" and his descriptions different.

Well OK it's hard to tell the way he writes whats fact based and whats fiction, then today I was reading "Scotbom: evidence and the Lockerbie investigation" - Richard Marquise - and he comes up with the same story for this raid.

"siezed at the time of the arrests were significant amounts of weapons and explosives including TNT & Semtex. In the car driven by Dalkamouni was a (singular) Toshiba bombeat radio with a barometric timer."

"The BKA had successfully taken the well disguised radio through airport security a number of times" (!)

"Intelligence indicates 3 other devices still at the apartment in Neuss, at one time shared by Dalkamouni, Hashem, Abassi and Khreesat"

It's not until April 13 1989 that BKA raids the flat in Neuss and recovers 3 more devices, Marquise claims that "There was no initial suspicion that these were in fact explosive devices" whilst being examined in a Wiesbaden lab one of these explodes "killing a BKA technician and seriously injuring a second" "The other two devices were destroyed before they could be examined"he goes on to claim that this greatly angered the Germans and they were very co-operative after this, handing over lots of files on "Autumn Leaves" and their own investigation into Lockerbie, and nothing came out of any of it. [pp 43]

Colemans account of this event is similar:

Quote:
Acting on this intelligence, a BKA surveillance team was watching when Dalkamoni greeted Khreesat on his arrival from the airport and helped carry his bags into the Neuss apartment ...
At this, the BKA moved in, arresting both men on the street, and over the next 24 hours raided apartments and houses in five other German cities, rounding up a total of 16 terrorist suspects. Two others, one of them Mobdi Goben -- another PFLP-GC bomb-builder more commonly known as 'the Professor', and the probable source of the Semtex explosive delivered to Dalkamoni by Ghadanfar -- were unfortunately out of the country.

Even more unfortunate, when the Neuss apartment was searched, three (possibly four) of Khreesat's bombs were no longer there. Nor was the brown Samsonite suitcase he had brought with him from Jordan. The BKA had to be content with the bomb it found in Dalkamoni's Ford Taunus -- 312 grams of Semtex-H moulded into the case of a black Toshiba Bombeat 453 radio-cassette recorder fitted with a barometric switch and time delay.

It had been assembled for just one purpose, to destroy an aircraft in flight. An urgent warning was accordingly issued to airline security chiefs throughout the world to be on the lookout for Khreesat's three (or four) missing bombs and possibly other explosive devices hidden in Toshiba radios.

(Months later, in April 1989, two of Khreesat's missing bombs were found in the basement of the greengrocery business run by Dalkamoni's brother-in-law in Neuss. As if this were not embarrassment enough for the BKA, one of the bombs exploded while it was being disarmed, killing a technician. The other was then deliberately destroyed 'for safety reasons', thus denying the Lockerbie investigators possibly vital forensic evidence.)

The BKA had better luck at Ghadanfar's apartment in Frankfurt. Among lesser weapons, its search party found an anti-tank grenade launcher, mortars, hand grenades, submachine guns, rifles and another five kilos of Semtex. On the strength of this and the bomb found in the Ford Taunus, Dalkamoni and Ghadanfar were held on terrorist charges. Khreesat and the others, however, were released 'for lack of evidence' and promptly disappeared.
[ source ]

We know that there was a warning issued to at least some airlines to be on the lookout for Toshiba radios because of the testimony at Zeiss of Kurt Maier, which Paul Foot records as:

"on 21 December 1988 he had been warned to look out for electronic devices such as Toshiba cassette recorders.
His equipment could identify recorders and any explosive packed into them. He x-rayed all the interline baggage which was loaded on Pan Am103A, but did not see anything remarkable enough to make him stop the machine and call his supervisor.
"
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Old 17th September 2009, 05:15 PM   #251
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I'd have to look, but I'm sure I read that there was only one missing bomb, in several sources. I hadn't read what you've just posted before.

Rolfe.
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Old 17th September 2009, 05:18 PM   #252
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By the way, while I'm here, I hadn't come across this theory till now.

http://news.scotsman.com/lockerbie/B...-do.3299712.jp

Quote:
ACCORDING to this theory, apartheid South Africa was responsible for the sabotage of Flight 103.

On 22 December, 1988 - the day after the Lockerbie bombing - the Namibia independence agreement was signed at UN headquarters in New York. A 23-strong South African delegation, headed by foreign minister, Pik Botha, cancelled a booking on the flight at short notice.

There was also a last-minute change of travel plan by the UN Commissioner for Namibia, Bernt Carlsson. Carlsson is alleged by some to have been the target of South African military intelligence operatives, having been the architect of Namibian independence. Instead of flying direct from Brussels to New York, Carlsson was persuaded to stopover in London and join the Pan Am 103 transatlantic flight. On the day of the bombing, he arrived at Heathrow from Brussels at 11:06 with a booking to travel onward to New York by flight PA 103 at 18:00. Carlsson was met at the airport by Bankole Timothy of De Beers and taken by car to central London. After the meeting with De Beers, Carlsson was brought back to Heathrow Airport, arriving at about 17:30. His already checked-in suitcase would have remained at Heathrow airport for about seven hours, thus providing South African airside-authorised personnel with ample opportunity to substitute it for the bomb suitcase.

That South Africa Airlines were involved in unlawfully switching baggage that day was confirmed by a Pan Am security officer, Michael Jones, at the Lockerbie fatal accident inquiry in October 1990. Within a week of the death of Bernt Carlsson on flight PA 103, his office safe at the United Nations had allegedly been broken into. And his apartment, which had been sealed by UN security staff, had also apparently been burgled. Neither his girlfriend nor his sister could identify a single shred of anything in his luggage at the property store in Lockerbie.

This isn't an octopus, it's a bloody millipede.

Rolfe.

ETA: I just read the comments on that article, and once again the one person saying the Official Version (of Lockerbie) is the simple truth, turns out to be a raving 9/11 twoofer! Do we have he answer here to why the twoofers aren't delving obsessively into PA103? It's because they are just about the only people who've looked at it who don't think it's a conspiracy?
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Old 18th September 2009, 11:53 AM   #253
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Megrahi (or his lawyers) set out the grounds for appeal:
http://megrahimystory.net/
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Old 18th September 2009, 01:30 PM   #254
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This is just the part that was aired in court in the spring, before they ajourned the appeal hearing because one of the judges was ill. I've read the first document (the internet is running like cold treacle for me tonight for some reason) and it's all very familiar stuff about Gauci's identification.

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Old 18th September 2009, 01:52 PM   #255
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Thumbs up

Originally Posted by FireGarden View Post
Megrahi (or his lawyers) set out the grounds for appeal:
http://megrahimystory.net/
That's just getting mentioned in the other thread, must be news.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009...peal-documents
Why now? Appeals dropped means you can take your case public? I think he'll have a better run here in the open. Public opinion and intelligence being what they are, still, he can just put these documents right up for everyone. As recent comments by Oliver Miles pointed out:
Quote:
Mr Miles said he had been told by Scottish sources that there was growing anxiety in the Scottish justice department that a successful appeal by al-Megrahi would severely damage the reputation of the Scottish justice system.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle6816334.ece
Whew, no appeal! But now... only by shutting down whole websites and destroying runs of newspapers can this road be blocked off now.

Looking forward to the news within this release. I'll be back on it tonight or tomorrow.
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Old 19th September 2009, 03:42 AM   #256
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
This is just the part that was aired in court in the spring, before they ajourned the appeal hearing because one of the judges was ill. I've read the first document (the internet is running like cold treacle for me tonight for some reason) and it's all very familiar stuff about Gauci's identification.

Rolfe.
Yes, the site says:
Quote:
Initially, he intends to publish those parts of his Grounds of Appeal which were argued before the Court between 28 April and 19 May 2009.

Thereafter, he will publish the Grounds of Appeal which were due to be the subject of argument before the Court, commencing on 2nd November 2009.
So is it nothing new yet but better soon, or is it already new stuff?

I haven't read it yet, rather taking a little time to look at the body of blahblahblah about the whole story. One angle I find has forced me to read a lot is pulling out bits to answer a complex question: was there a deal? It's a complex question, with different kinds of deals and leverage at wrk. It'll kick ass once I get it put together, but in the meantime, thought I'd invite some discussion with a few of the quotes I'm using. [emph mine throughout]

Quote:
"It just shows that the power of oil money counts for more than justice. There have been so many attempts to let him off. It has to do with money and power and giving Gaddafi what he wants. My feelings, as a victim, apparently count for nothing." — Susan Cohen
http://www.time.com/time/world/artic...917851,00.html

Quote:
Times poll: 61% think al-Megrahi release was about oil, not compassion
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle6812859.ece

Actually I'm thin on quotes for the oil deals aspect. It's so boring and dumb I can't hardly look for them. Anyone have any good ones handy, to save me the hassle? Especially specific allegations... Before anyone argues too much BTW, I realize business concerns have to play some role, if indirect. We can discuss it.

The logic of thinking about bargaining here is more interesting. This writer seems to get the nuances it seems so many others miss:
Originally Posted by Alex Massie
Perhaps Salmond should have anticipated that Megrahi would receive a "hero's welcome" in Libya. But why that should be additional grounds for keeping Megrahi behind bars remains a mystery. If Megrahi received a hero's welcome in Tripoli my suspicion is that the average Libyan views him as an innocent man returning home, not a national hero who'd successfully carried out a military mission for the greater glory of the motherland.
Other possible deals are more interesting yet. Same author as above:
http://www.spectator.co.uk/alexmassi...ms-razor.thtml
Quote:
If there is a conspiracy here - and lord knows half the world seems to want there to be one - it lies in the prospect of ministers being advised that Megrahi would have won his appeal. His cancer, if this is the case, proved a blessing since it created a means by which Megrahi could be sent home while also saving everyone's blushes and keeping the Lockerbie files closed.
Originally Posted by Saif-al-Islam Gadaffi
The truth about Lockerbie will come out one day. Had Mr Megrahi been able to appeal his case through the court, we believe that his conviction would have been overturned. Mr Megrahi made the difficult decision to give up his promising appeal in order to spend his last days with his family.
The colonel's kid believes it was a deal, which of course means there wasn't. He went on though to misspell "either ... or" as "both ... and."
Quote:
Mr MacAskill’s courageous decision demonstrates to the world that both justice and compassion can be achieved by people of good will.
http://lockerbiecase.blogspot.com/20...-in-libya.html

No there was no deal regarding compassion/appeals - all British government officials are clear on this. I'll quote them later. Good ones?

And countering them are just suspicions - but good ones.

Originally Posted by Dr. Hans Koechler
[T]he public is kept in the dark about what Scotland’s Justice Secretary discussed at his meeting with Mr. Al Megrahi at Greenock prison, which was indeed an unprecedented step in Scottish legal history. One thing should be taken for certain, however: If Mr. MacAskill is a man of honour, he will not have made granting the prisoner’s request for ‘compassionate release’ conditional upon the latter’s dropping the ongoing appeal.
http://i-p-o.org/IPO-nr-doubts-Locke...-31Aug2009.htm

Originally Posted by Oliver Miles
I think there may have been some kind of deal. One part of the deal was to have the appeal dropped and the other part was the release on compassionate grounds. Somebody told the BBC. It’s possible that it may even have been the Libyans who leaked it because they wanted the Scots to deliver on their promise and this was a way of tying them in.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle6816334.ece

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Old 20th September 2009, 12:01 AM   #257
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So I'm aware some of this (above) was already discussed, I just wasn't versed enough at the time I suppose, so I'm coming back to some of this thinking. But I'm also all over, so anything interesting, anyone...

On another note I just read closer a quote from Robert S. Mueller, of course recent-ish FBI director, thought others should be sure they'd seen it, if not already. He wrote to Kenny MacAskill and said this:

Originally Posted by Robert Mueller
your action makes a mockery of the rule of law. […] Your action rewards a terrorist even though he never admitted to his role in this act of mass murder and even though neither he nor the government of Libya ever disclosed the names and roles of others who were responsible.
Haven't they actually handed over some names, or any tips to help the feds get back on the right track? Why wouldn't they be giving names and helping out? I don't get what Muley's saying here.

Originally Posted by Robert Mueller
Your action gives comfort to terrorists around the world who now believe that regardless of the quality of the investigation, the conviction by jury after the defendant is given all due process, and sentence appropriate to the crime, the terrorist will be freed by one man's exercise of "compassion."
How many errors are there in this sentence? Count 'em up.

Bzzt. Wrong. Zero errors. IMO he meant to say things he knows are wrong, having devolved to a purely political being with no more connection to the real factual world.

This is an unprecedented criticism from Muley, says he, usually keeping his mouth shut about fellow law people, says he. Why is he so compelled then to step up and make his voice heard in this case?

Originally Posted by Robert Mueller
because I am familiar with the facts, and the law, having been the Assistant Attorney General in charge of the investigation and indictment of Megrahi in 1991
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Old 20th September 2009, 12:55 AM   #258
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If Mueller is as familiar with the facts as he claims he is, then wouldn't he be well aware that Megrahi was not convicted by a jury, but by a panel of 3 judges?

I do agree that the decision to release Megrahi makes a mockery of the rule of law though, if it was the case that a deal was struck to cause Megrahi to wilfully drop his appeal in order to gain release.

Had Megrahi continued his appeal and died whilst it was ongoing other "interested parties" such as Swire/Cadman could have continued it and almost certainly would have.

If then, as seems almost certain, Megrahi would have had his conviction quoshed it opens the whole can of worms again.
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Old 20th September 2009, 01:22 AM   #259
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Originally Posted by Ambrosia View Post
If Mueller is as familiar with the facts as he claims he is, then wouldn't he be well aware that Megrahi was not convicted by a jury, but by a panel of 3 judges?
That's the glaring one to me. Also the "all due process" and "quality investigation" parts have their problems. The "appropriate sentence" is kinda wrong too - 27 years to like is too weak for a true PA 103 bomber, but a travesty when dished out on an innocent man. All in all, he's either ignorant of the real "investigation" or he's misconstruing what he saw for political ends.

Quote:
I do agree that the decision to release Megrahi makes a mockery of the rule of law though, if it was the case that a deal was struck to cause Megrahi to wilfully drop his appeal in order to gain release.

Had Megrahi continued his appeal and died whilst it was ongoing other "interested parties" such as Swire/Cadman could have continued it and almost certainly would have.

If then, as seems almost certain, Megrahi would have had his conviction quoshed it opens the whole can of worms again.
That's kind of what I'm seeing. Robert Black, as Rolfe points out, one of the architects of the whole trial, agrees.
Quote:
It is sad that Abdelbaset Megrahi has felt it necessary to abandon his appeal.

The Scottish Government Justice Department has unequivocally denied that any suggestion has ever been made <snip> that Megrahi's prospects of being granted compassionate release were dependent upon, or would be improved by, his abandoning his current appeal.

Why, if this is true, did he decide to do it?
[…]
Or could there have been some “deal” between governments which involved abandonment of the appeal as one of its terms? A Libyan official quoted in The Times of Malta has recently referred to a deal or agreement.
http://lockerbiecase.blogspot.com/20...st-not-be.html

Speculative, but all good detective work starts that way. One has only to wonder if the dropping (and thus permanent silencing) of the appeal was in fact connected to the release decision just a few days later. The Libyan quote, BTW, is
Quote:
"The deal is now already in the last steps," the Libyan official, who did not want to be identified, said in Tripoli. "We have an agreement between the two sides not to make any statement until he (al Megrahi) comes home."
http://lockerbiecase.blogspot.com/20...-be-freed.html
And we have the appeal slaying and the purely compassionate return coming soon after, with that highly unusual meeting between al Megrahi and Kenny MacAskill in between...

Of course there was no deal. If there were, it'd be tantamount to USING the cancer to pressure Megrahi, to whom it mattered most, to chose between tossing his last months into more futile efforts, behind bars, at clearing his name, or to let the world sort it out as it sees fit and spend his last months at home. Your name or your life - pretty cheap buyout, thanks to his going-out-of-living sale. They were hoping the story would die with him and his appeal. Here's hoping it doesn't.
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Old 20th September 2009, 04:58 PM   #260
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When the dropping of the appeal was first announced, my initial instinct was to blame Kenny and that meeting in the prison. It was just too convenient. It's blindingly obvious that the Scottish and UK establishments did not want this appeal to come to court, look at the 6-year delay so far, and when one of the judges got ill they chose to ajourn rather than replace him even though they knew the appellant was terminally ill.

Whether the impulse for secrecy was entirely because of pressure from the USA, or whether US and UK interests were aligned on that, I have no idea. I suspect it doesn't matter after a certain point, because once one step has been taken, all parts of the system become interested in covering up the shenanigans.

So I suspected Kenny, as a fully-paid-up lawyer, of pressurising Megrahi to drop the appeal so that the whole thing could be buried with him. Because otherwise Jim Swire (for one) had explicitly stated he would continue with the action after Megrahi's death. This opinion was reinforced when Megrahi's lawyer (well, one of them, a Libyan I think) came on the BBC news and said that his client had been pressurised to drop the appeal.

However, Megrahi himself has never said that. After he got home, he said that it was quite simple. He wanted to give himself the best possible chance of getting home, and so he decided to make two appilcations - one for compassionate release, and the other for a prisoner transfer. In order to make the second application, he had to withdraw the appeal.

If we look at it more from his point of view, remember that while the appeal was live, all the material was sub judice, and could not be published. If he'd kept it going, he'd have got home, but probably been dead before the hearings resumed. Some comfort. On the other hand, withdrawing the appeal means that he can publish his case as it is no longer sub judice. Maybe he simply thought that he had a chance to influence the bar of public opinion while he was still alive.

If so, it's not working so far. I was expecting to see a few analysis articles, looking at what had been published and commenting on its significance. But I've seen nothing. Just reports of Eilish Angiolini being outraged at Megrahi's temerity in publishing the stuff, as according to her his only proper course if he wanted vindicated was to keep the appeal going and die before it got any further.

Don't know what to think.

Rolfe.
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Old 20th September 2009, 06:02 PM   #261
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
If so, it's not working so far. I was expecting to see a few analysis articles, looking at what had been published and commenting on its significance. But I've seen nothing.
He's not really dropped any bombshells yet. He has vowed to reveal the name of the bomber, presumably along with how he knows it's him.

I get the impression that much of the MSM is being discouraged to comeup with stories that favour Megrahi. Tho if he actually releases evidence that points elsewhere then the news wires might get a little hotter.
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Old 20th September 2009, 06:26 PM   #262
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I get that impression too.

Hey, doesn't most of the world who's looked at this already think it was Abu Talb? Where would be the news in that?

Megrahi originally lodged a "special defence of incrimination" that Abu Talb did it. I belive this was withdrawn by his defence team after some sort of internal disagreements. I was always of the opinion that this part of the defence was merely an attempt to bring before the court all the evidence that was made public against Abu Talb and his associates in 1989-90, before the MSM was told that Libya was the culprit to write their stories about.

How would Megrahi necessarily know who did it anyway, if he wasn't involved?

I think evidence that the original evidence was fabricated would be the dynamite part. Allegations that the timer fragment was planted are all over the web, but never get a mention so's you'd notice in the MSM. It would be interesting if journalists began to feel they could make accusations of that sort openly. Even an easy-to-follow summary of the evidence and the holes in it, in the Herald or the Scotsman, would be interesting about now.

I've just downloaded Trail of the Octopus and it's 150 A4 pages on my word processor. It seems to be telling a similar tale to The Maltese Double Cross, and to have been published about the same time. And there's all these documents on Megrahi's web site. There's simply so much on this, it's hard to know what to concentrate on, or how to get through it all.

Rolfe.

ETA: My main concudrum is, if it was Abu Talb wot done it, then what was a fragment of an MST-13 timer doing in the wreckage, when Talb's group were using ice-cube timers?

And if it wasn't Talb, or a closely-asssociated group, then how come the entire modus operandi, the make and model of the radio-cassette player and the timing of the explosion, were all exactly according to the known methods of that group?
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Old 20th September 2009, 07:05 PM   #263
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More from Paul Foot.

http://www.druglibrary.org/schaffer/media/lockrbie.htm

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Old 21st September 2009, 02:27 AM   #264
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Following a cursory reading of the Megrahi appeal documents ( here page 29-30), one snippet that stands out immediately :

"When Gauci selected the appellant’s photograph at the photoshow on 15 February 1991, he stated that he was the only one similar to the purchaser “other than the one my brother showed me” (Gauci Day 31/4773). The one his brother showed him was a photograph of Abu Talb from the newspaper. The Crown, in asking the court to rule out the possibility that Talb was the purchaser, relied on the fact that Gauci had failed to pick Talb’s photograph out of other photoshows on 6 December 1989 and 10 September 1990, and on Talb’s own evidence (supported by evidence that he was in Sweden on 5 December and that he had an appointment on 9 December in Sweden) that he was not in Malta on 7 December, the date the Crown said was the date of purchase (Crown Final Submissions Day 78/9454, line 1 – 78/9455, line 8)."

Which includes some more bizarre reasoning by The Crown, namely that Abu Talb - a PFLP-GC member and one of the original suspects - can be ruled out because he wasn't in Malta at the time of the clothes purchase. A time which itself is only established on massively flimsy evidence. And that failed identification of Talb at other times is more significant than failed id's of Megrahi at other times.

The evidence against Megrahi is 100% circumstantial. As such it can only convict if there is no other rational explanation for the evidence, and in this case there is a very plausible alternative. Talb, a known and convicted terrorist with bomb-making 'form', bought the clothes from Gauci's shop, but not on Dec 7th.

Page 67 onwards in the above .pdf contains an excellent (but very lengthy and detailed) analysis of the role and applicability of circumstantial evidence in criminal cases.

Last edited by GlennB; 21st September 2009 at 02:30 AM. Reason: tidyup
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Old 21st September 2009, 04:00 AM   #265
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
[Talb] was not in Malta on 7 December, the date the Crown said was the date of purchase (Crown Final Submissions Day 78/9454, line 1 – 78/9455, line 8)."
Thanks for finding that. To those familiar with the evidence, this is further evidence, among so many others, that the clothes were NOT bought on December 7.
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Old 21st September 2009, 04:27 AM   #266
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
Hey, doesn't most of the world who's looked at this already think it was Abu Talb? Where would be the news in that?
Megrahi or according to the Sunday Express "sources close to Megrahi" say a US citizen alias Abu Elias, commander of a Palestinian terror goup. The SE claims to have tracked him down, and they can't have done that if it's Talb, as he is presently incarcerated in Sweden.

FWIW Talb was placed in Malta buying clothes in October 1988. The "Yorkie" trousers found in the suitcase can only have been purchased after November 18th 1988, and Talb is too young going by Gaucis description by about 10 years to have been the buyer.

Quote:
How would Megrahi necessarily know who did it anyway, if he wasn't involved?
good question.

Quote:
It would be interesting if journalists began to feel they could make accusations of that sort openly. Even an easy-to-follow summary of the evidence and the holes in it
Megrahi appeal the 2nd according to the docs on his website aren't contesting it as grounds for appeal, so short of some new documentary evidence thats unlikely. Lumpert isn't going to be tried for perjury any time soon as he's not in anyones jurisdiction.

Quote:
I've just downloaded Trail of the Octopus and it's 150 A4 pages on my word processor. It seems to be telling a similar tale to The Maltese Double Cross
The film is reportedly based on this book.

There are reports from a disgruntled Hurley who sued Coleman for libel (and who also has his own book out) his suit also included C4 who showed an edited version, but not oddly, the Australian network that screened the whole film, was settled out of court in his favour (Hurley's) in 1996 and the book disappeared off the shelves.

Only it's just got a release in America and a "2009 edition" is available from Amazon

In support of his libel case Coleman produced this document, which makes interesting reading.

The book is a lot more detailed. Amongst other things it claims:

There was a warning that detailed PA103 exactly on Dec 20th.

Pan Am 103 had as many as 13 (thirteen) pieces of unaccompanied baggage on board, and noone, not even the airline has an exact count.

The US Govt. knew for much of the Beruit hostage crisis where they were all being held and could have got them out forcibly, but didn't want to blow their line of intelligence.

It kind of hangs on how much you believe Juval Aviv. Interestingly Aviv was indicted for fraud just as the film MDC was released. His lawyer described the fraud indictment "In all my (25) years of practice, I have never seen the resources of the FBI and the US Attorney's Office devoted to such an insignificant, inconsequential, isolated, four-year-old matter." the case was dismissed shortly afterwards, the judge describing the prosecution as "dishonest".

If you're a fan of coincidences, how about this one.

In a 1994 article in the Independent Dr Swire is quoted as saying of Francovich (MDC film maker) "He told me his life was in danger but that he wanted to do everything possible to find the truth. I liked the chap."

Francovich has a heart attack while going through US Customs at Houston airport in 97, he dies a week later.

Quote:
ETA: My main concudrum is, if it was Abu Talb wot done it, then what was a fragment of an MST-13 timer doing in the wreckage, when Talb's group were using ice-cube timers?
I can come up with a couple of scenarios that explain an MT-13 but they don't include Talb.

Quote:
And if it wasn't Talb, or a closely-asssociated group, then how come the entire modus operandi, the make and model of the radio-cassette player and the timing of the explosion, were all exactly according to the known methods of that group?
I am not sure about the make/model of the radio. The Khreesat made bomb recovered by the BKA was in a one speaker radio. The bombeat model has two speakers. The radio had a black plastic casing. an almost identical model using a white casing was sold almost exclusively to Libya. Feraday (I think) got his serial numbers mixed up giving evidence.

Smells like a setup actually, one that duplicates the PFLP-GC MO almost exactly so that they can pin the blame on them if needs be later.

Perhaps a device using *both* timers.

Whats baking my noodle at the moment is that MDC/Octopus says the bomb was switched onto 103 at Frankfurt, instead of the drugs suitcase Jafaar was carrying as part of his sting, *and* the drugs suitcase was "recovered" in the wreckage and spirited away, thats having your cake and eating it that is.

My head hurts.
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Old 21st September 2009, 04:47 AM   #267
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It's alright if I leap to a conclusion. I can leap right back if needed. (re: Talb) Ambrosia, you're pretty amazing. Give the head a rest, it's deserved. Rolfe also, some great points in the last few posts. I must sleep now, later times all...
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Old 21st September 2009, 05:45 AM   #268
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Originally Posted by Ambrosia View Post
Whats baking my noodle at the moment is that MDC/Octopus says the bomb was switched onto 103 at Frankfurt, instead of the drugs suitcase Jafaar was carrying as part of his sting, *and* the drugs suitcase was "recovered" in the wreckage and spirited away, thats having your cake and eating it that is.

My head hurts.

I know what you mean. There would have had to be (at least) two drugs suitcases involved in that scenario.

If you want more funny coincidences, Paul Foot also died of a heart attack in an airport (Stanstead, I think).

Yes, I take your point that the radios weren't identical - the Lockerbie one was a stereo while the ones recovered in Frankfurt were mono. However, the similarities are very striking. I'm coming to the conclusion that this was either Jibril's group (or a closely-related group - I read a suggestion that there might have been two parallel groups, on the theory that if one was detected then the other would almost certainly succeed), or an elaborate scheme to make it look as if it was Jibril's group.

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Old 21st September 2009, 02:37 PM   #269
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Originally Posted by Ambrosia View Post

FWIW Talb was placed in Malta buying clothes in October 1988. The "Yorkie" trousers found in the suitcase can only have been purchased after November 18th 1988, and Talb is too young going by Gaucis description by about 10 years to have been the buyer.
That may be correct, but the only source I can find about Talb and Malta places him travelling there in October, not limiting his stay to October only.
Regrettably this source is the brief Wikipedia article on Abu Talb
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Old 21st September 2009, 03:07 PM   #270
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
That may be correct, but the only source I can find about Talb and Malta places him travelling there in October, not limiting his stay to October only.
Regrettably this source is the brief Wikipedia article on Abu Talb
Source is Richard Marquise's book "Scotbom:evidence and the Lockerbie case" "the two sides agreed on pieces of evidence that put Talb as leaving Malta October 26th"

Principally this evidence as is detailed in the trial verdict itself is shown to be Talbs testimony, though there was documentary evidence shown at trial that gives Talb the alibi of being in Sweden on various dates that would preclude a trip to Malta lasting longer than a day or two from 26th October up till mid December. I don't think there is any evidence anywhere to suggest he left Sweden from 26th Oct to after his wife has her first baby on Dec 22nd.

IIRC the film Maltese Double Cross investigated this, and interviewed Talbs wife in 1994 (n oidea when the interview itself was carried out but it would have ben around this time I guess) and she says he went to Malta in Oct, cameback and didn't return there for however much that's worth.
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Old 21st September 2009, 04:04 PM   #271
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The sensible date for the purchase of the clothes was 23rd November. I thought there was evidence that someone in the PFLP was in Malta that day, even if it wasn't Talb?

Sorry, but keeping all this straight is doing my head in.

Rolfe.
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Old 22nd September 2009, 12:32 AM   #272
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Thanks Ambrosia.

And Rolfe - by now you should have a giant whiteboard on your wall, covered in photos, names, arrows and question marks. Like in the detective films.
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Old 22nd September 2009, 02:23 AM   #273
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I'm not even going to try to follow this one right now. I'm hearing about headaches, no thanks...

Thought I'd bring this over from the other thread:
Originally Posted by Rolfe
However, if we concentrate on the timer fragment, then even there we see evidence of at least an intent to have the fragment in there at least by September 1989, which is still quite a while before Desert Storm was on the horizon. So if the fragment was fabricated, and it's crucial, then I think there must have been some imperative in addition to the whole "we can't alienate Iran right now" stuff that came to the fore in the spring of 1990.
<snip>
I'm having trouble believing that this is all about Desert Storm, the timing is all to pot.
link

This is an important point to consider. I agree there had to be more at work than simple war-with-Iraq considerations. I did just notice for the first time one reason Libya would be targetted AFTER August 1990, in a link you provided, after explaining Syrian assistance in the war:
Originally Posted by Foot
In other words, as Donald Goddard puts it, from the moment of Saddam's invasion 'nothing more was heard from official sources on either side of the Atlantic about Syrian complicity in the Flight 103 bombing.' From now on the official view of the disaster was that Syria had, in Bush's typically elegant phrase, 'taken a bum rap on this'; and that the people responsible for Lockerbie came from the one Arab state which had denounced the US role in the Gulf War: Libya.
I remember that now. Cuba and Yemen also voted no. All paid a price.

Now on the targeting Iraq timeline, there's a level where things can seem almost "scripted" in grand srategic sweeps, the changing geopolitical zeitgeist. This timeline of the Iran-Iraq war shows the zeitgeist of mid-1988 was US and Iraq working in tandem, partly intentional, partly accidental (Vicennes), like a tsunami to subdue Iran into the August ceasefire. Almost exactly two years later the US was fighting against Iraq. Most run-of-the-mill Gulf War timelines start with late May 1990 and Iraq's charges of economic warfare against Kuwait. One might guess some foreshadowing prior to this, but it's more than shadows.

I've read Ramsey Clark's The Fire This Time (1992). Slanted to be sure, but informative in its way. His intro timeline goes into more detail and further back. Let's go backwards to see how far back the mindshift goes:
Quote:
February 1990 – General Schwwarzkopf testifies before the Senate of the need for the United States to increase its military presence in the Gulf region. He warns that “Iraq has the capability to militarily coerce its neighbors.”
January 1990 CENTCOM headqyuarters stages a game entitled Look, which tests War Plan 1002-90.
1989 War Plan 1002, originally conceived in 1981 to counter a supposed Soviet threat to the Persian Gulf, is adjusted to designate Iraq as the threat to the region. The plan is renamed War Plan 1002-90.
1988 <snip> A ceaefire agreement is signed between Iran and Iraq in August. U.S. policy towards Iraq shifts dramatically. The Center for Strategic and International Studies begins a two-year study predicting the outcome of a war between the United States and Iraq. [p xxiv-xxv]
Clark explains on pages 19-20 how the Iraqi chemical weapons attack on Iran-supporting Kurds in Halabja, March 1988, was ignored by western media and governments at the time, even after large Kurdish protests at the UN. The zeitgeist of mid-88? He noted it was on September 8, just three weeks after the Iran-Iraq cease fire, that the U.S. decided to announce that their ally had gassed Kurds. A state Dept. spokesman referred to the attack(s) (vaguely related) as “abhorrent and unjustifiable.” The same day, Iraq’s Foreign Minister was in town to meet SoS Schultz, and had the chance to be barraged with unexpected questions and to respond weakly. Within a day “the Senate unanimously voted to impose sanctions” on Iraq – somehow this “never became law” but was seen as “a threat and a humiliation” by Iraq.

So was the necessary mindset there and strong even four months before the Lockerbie bombing? Seems so. This doesn't mean it's THE reason, but shouldn't be scratched as one of the birds to be killed with this stone.

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Old 22nd September 2009, 03:44 PM   #274
Bobby
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Have you seen this?

Quote:
A source who has seen the SCCRC document, told The Sunday Times: “The report says there was no sufficient explanation made of why the court discounted him [Giaka] as a credible witness yet seemed to accept elements within his evidence which asserted that Megrahi was a senior member of the Libyan intelligence service and was involved in the wider conspiracy.
Quote:
The SCCRC’s concerns about Giaka’s testimony are shared by Michael Scharf, who was the counsel to the US counterterrorism bureau when Megrahi and Fhima were indicted for the bombing. He believes that the case should never have gone to trial.

He claimed the CIA had assured State Department officials that Giaka was “the perfect witness” and there was an “airtight” case against Megrahi and Fhima, who was cleared. “This is a bit like the OJ Simpson case, where the prosecution, together with the US government, tried to sex up the case and tried to hide the flaws,” he said.
Interesting, no?
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Old 22nd September 2009, 04:42 PM   #275
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Oh yes.

Rolfe.
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Old 22nd September 2009, 04:49 PM   #276
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
Thanks Ambrosia.

And Rolfe - by now you should have a giant whiteboard on your wall, covered in photos, names, arrows and question marks. Like in the detective films.

We could do with, at the very least, a list of what is undisputed (could be a very short one!), a list, grouped by subject, of all the anomalous bits of evidence or alleged evidence together with a note of their provenance and an assessment of their credibility, and a synoptic list of all the suggested explanations.

I see the one that says the South Africans did it has now been superseded by one that says it was an accident, but one the US aithorities had to cover up.

Rolfe.
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Old 23rd September 2009, 03:39 AM   #277
Caustic Logic
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
We could do with, at the very least, a list of what is undisputed (could be a very short one!), a list, grouped by subject, of all the anomalous bits of evidence or alleged evidence together with a note of their provenance and an assessment of their credibility, and a synoptic list of all the suggested explanations.

I see the one that says the South Africans did it has now been superseded by one that says it was an accident, but one the US aithorities had to cover up.

Rolfe.
It was an accident that triggered semtex laced fuselage metal, built by SA and installed by Libyans possed up by Megrahi. Obviously.

I had a question about the BBC's Conspiracy Files video -
The link again:
Others can pull this up and follow along. I felt like it was manipulative all in all, but iit DID do a decent job of covering the stuff it did - the Helsinki warning, the PFLPGC connections and that track, the questions over Giaka AND Gauci AND the timer fragment. Most of the time it seems like they'd fit right in in this thread, but then at the end it gets all like "we know Lybia did it, just not who... thhey won't quite admit it still... bloody bastard and we're doing oiil deals now... oooh! And he's going to appeal again, even tho he lost [sic] the first one...

Anyway, since I was surprised at what they covered and in some detail, Rolfe, what do you say? Does this reflect good journalism and thirst for truth, or simply the fact that all this stuff is already out there and they can't be seen as dodging?

Case in point - 17:00 in - Juval Aviv - tied right into the iranian-backed PFLP "no evidence" theory - right to its backing from this CIA drug-for-hostage theory, debunked by Oliver North, left for dead, with the Iran-Syria/PFLP leaads attached and inert. Hardly mentioned for rest of video leaving Libya the only plausible candidate. Then they let questions fly, scatter, get paper-thin (see 36:15), and leave again Lybia, naggling questions aside.
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Old 23rd September 2009, 04:16 AM   #278
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I was impressed by the coverage of the Helsinki warning, which seemed to put it to bed completely (one more bloody coincidence to add to all the rest). However, when I saw what they did with the Frankfurt baggage transfer, my warning lights all came on.

They presented this, in an interview with the baggage clerk who saved the printout, as an unaccompanied bag from KA180 out of Luqa definitely having been transferred to PA103A. This is not true. The baggage records at Frankfurt seem to have been all over the place, and it's anybody's guess what they mean. As far as I understand it, there were several unidentified bags transferred to that flight, but just one that might have come off the Luqa flight. Depending on how you interpreted some semi-legible worksheet, and whether the guy's watch was right or not. Paul Foot explains it in quite a lot of detail. The fact remains that Luqa had the most watertight records of all, and it's virtually impossible for anything untoward to have gone on there.

My interpretation is that the investigators were trying to torture the evidence to show that a bag had come through from Luqa, because they knew the clothes had been bought in Sliema.

Once I realised what they'd done with the Frankfurt baggage evidence, I started to doubt some other bits, including the neat tidying away of the Helsinki warning.

Rolfe.
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Old 23rd September 2009, 04:36 AM   #279
Caustic Logic
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Not aslepp jut yet now either. That saved printout story seemed weird to me too. I haven't reviewed it tho...

On the Helsinki warning I'm still struck with the coincidence of it, and that it reportedly DID serve to keep VIPs from dying. Can it really be coincidence? Sure. Must it be? No.

So you're someone who's become hip to the coming attack but not wanting to stop it, but to prevent someone you know from getting on the plane, perhaps. You also don't want to reveal your foresight of the actual plot for investigators later on. How do you do it? Just like this. You scan case files - ah, an old quarrel between to Arab guys involving false phone leads. Tack it onto that as the source, then feed tactically correct info (right airport and time) but specifically attached to wrong pretext facts. Voila. Instant "unrelated hoax" and "bizarre coincidence" that keeps some vital people off a plane and perhaps feeling indebted to some mysterious protector... and a "dead end" for investigators.

Something to consider.

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Old 23rd September 2009, 06:34 AM   #280
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The thing to remember about TV programs and documentaries in general is that more often than not they are working from an "angle" and that in order to make a program fit within it's alotted time much ends up on the cutting room floor.

The Conspiracy Files seems to me to have the angle that all Conspiracy Theories are rubbish, and it sets out to prove that this is the case.

The Helsinki warning was one of a number of warnings reportedly received by the authorities. While it was proved to be a hoax, what of the others?

I don't recall them mentionning Lumpert in the program, tho I need to watch it again. The single most important piece of physical evidence in the whole case is the MST-13 fragment. Despite Hans Kochler having an article about Lumperts "confession" on his website presumably in the time period when the BBC were researching this program (It was first shown in Aug 2008) it's not mentionned.

There are other niggling problems as well e.g. the program doesn't quite get details about Juval Avivs report right, it mentions "Gadaffis 4 year old adopted daughter" as a victim of the US 1986 raids, when she was reported as being 15months old. They use a CGI representation of both the MST-13 fragment, and also of a complete board which match completely, however the pictures of the board from the evidence at trial and the pictures of the fragment itself do not match exactly (the position of the "1" is wrong) Bollier is interviewed but they use Swiss and English language, why both? near the end the narrator says "one fact was hard to explain away" and in the next breath explains it away. It cites the conclusion of the SCCRC report, but calls it's work a "3 year independant investigation" , which actually took over 3yrs and 9 months.

All told the program is not bad, in closing it states that facts may yet come to light in the appeal which will confirm or lay to rest some of the Conspiracy Theories about Lockerbie, and that thats the very least the families of the 270 victims deserve, I certainly agree with that much 100%.
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