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Old Today, 05:14 AM   #241
TubbaBlubba
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Originally Posted by Border Reiver View Post
Measuring civilization relative to other civilization is challenging. And realistically is dependant on the value of the person doing the evaluating.

Both the Gauls and the Inca had well established population centres, high levels of agriculture, and well developed artistic sensitivities. The Gauls were iron workers, however, that is more due to the ease of getting iron in NW Europe relative to the Andes than to technical ability (given the level of metalwork displayed with gold and silver). Both were non-literate cultures. The Incans did have a higher level of social organization than the Gauls did - as demonstrated by a unified political structure and the system of labour used to develop high altitude agriculture, travel and trade, as compared to the far less cohesive political/social structure of the Gauls.

Realistically, the Incan culture was probably on a higher level than the Gauls.
The Gauls had a version of the Greek alphabet AFAIK but it was in very limited use mainly by clerics who favoured oral history anyway.

But yeah. A loosely held together chiefdom can have advantages over a strongly centralized kingdom in some contexts. It's not really measurable.
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Old Today, 01:16 PM   #242
Vixen
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Originally Posted by Retrograde View Post
The US southwest and west has an abundance of pre-Columbian pictoglyphs in the desert areas - it seems the people who lived there hundreds of years ago wanted to make their marks.


It varied. There were large settlements in places like Cahokia along the Mississippi, and even in post-contact times peoples such as the Iroquois, the Cherokee, and Choctaw had good-sized towns, as did many Southwestern tribes.

In other words, aside from the people who lived there nobody lived there. Or at least nobody important, i.e., European.

Even if one defines "history" as "what's been recorded", US history does go back further then that, back to the Spanish settlements in Florida (and if you count Puerto Rico, even earlier). There's a building in Santa Fe, New Mexico, that's been used as a government building almost continuously since 1608 (there was this thing called the Pueblo Uprising in the late 1600s).


If you can find a copy where you live, I recommend Charles Mann's book 1491 for a glimpse of current thinking on the pre-contact Americas.
Yes, thanks, I can see it on Amazon.
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Old Today, 01:19 PM   #243
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Originally Posted by Tolls View Post
Precious few now.
The youngest (who really won't remember it) are in their 70s.



And so, for the sake of the few who perceive Karelia et al as their home, you would displace a million people for whom it is their home, and has been for several generations.

Sorry...no. That is how to get into a situation where this crap never ends.
Nobody's talking about displacement.

We have hardly anyone left who remembers WWI, apart from a few centenarians. It might also be true that the number of people who recall WWII are now in their eighties and nineties.

Does that mean we should stop remembering?
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