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Tags Naval incidents , US-Russia relations

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Old 15th June 2019, 04:34 PM   #161
The Atheist
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Originally Posted by This is The End View Post
After becoming the most powerful country on the planet the USA has done ZERO expanding of its empire.
I must have dreamt up the invasion of Afghanistan and Iraq to place a US-friendly government in them.

I must have dreamt up all of the times USA got itself involved in Central American politics, in efforts to secure US-friendly governments.

I must have dreamt up the 50 years of economic pressure on Cuba in an effort to secure a US-friendly government.

And I absolutely dreamt up the removal of Gaddafi and subsequent attempts to install a US-friendly regime.
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Old 15th June 2019, 04:39 PM   #162
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A war is not expansionism.
You do know the difference between a war and annexing a country to become part of aqn empire?
You of all people with your geographical location must have some idea.
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Old 15th June 2019, 04:39 PM   #163
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Really?

Show me some territory that the USA has recently occupied, that is now under rule by the US Government, and to which Americans have moved to and are building their own homes and are living.

Go learn some history. The USA expanded from the east coast until they reached the west coast, and they they stopped. The last piece of "expansionism" was 152 years ago 1867 when the USA purchased Alaska from Russia (for 2c/acre).
We did try to keep the Philippines and fought them with our military when they tried to become independent. I don't think even the most generous redefinitions of terms will cast that as anything other than outright imperialism.
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Old 15th June 2019, 04:43 PM   #164
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Show me some territory that the USA has recently occupied, that is now under rule by the US Government, and to which Americans have moved to and are building their own homes and are living.
You don't need to occupy a country to call it part of your empire. You're way out of date, mate.

China's doing exactly the same thing, but more openly. They just buy their way in rather than replace the actual government.
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Old 15th June 2019, 04:49 PM   #165
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
You don't need to occupy a country to call it part of your empire. You're way out of date, mate.
Nope, I appear to be more up to date than you are

Show me a country that the USA claims is part of its empire
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Old 15th June 2019, 04:49 PM   #166
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So no examples then?
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Old 15th June 2019, 04:52 PM   #167
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
We did try to keep the Philippines and fought them with our military when they tried to become independent. I don't think even the most generous redefinitions of terms will cast that as anything other than outright imperialism.
1899-1902... that is ~120 years ago.

I'm asking for something more recent, where the US has occupied a country and then moved civilian populations there to live as part of the USA (like Israel has done in the West Bank, like China is doing in the South China Sea.
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Old 15th June 2019, 05:10 PM   #168
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
1899-1902... that is ~120 years ago.
I was merely pointing out that there was something more recent than your two cited examples. If you're going to tell people to "go learn some history" then you can hardly complain when someone brings up some history you overlooked.

Quote:
I'm asking for something more recent, where the US has occupied a country and then moved civilian populations there to live as part of the USA (like Israel has done in the West Bank, like China is doing in the South China Sea.
Okay, then, you have reformulated your question if not actually moved the goalposts. America hasn't been imperialist since the last time it tried imperialism. A moral victory!
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Old 15th June 2019, 05:27 PM   #169
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
I was merely pointing out that there was something more recent than your two cited examples. If you're going to tell people to "go learn some history" then you can hardly complain when someone brings up some history you overlooked.

Okay, then, you have reformulated your question if not actually moved the goalposts. America hasn't been imperialist since the last time it tried imperialism. A moral victory!
Nope, I said recently.... 120 years ago is not recent in any sense of global history.

Also, your Philippines example does not meet the criteria "...territory that the USA has recently occupied, that is now under rule by the US Government, and to which Americans have moved to and are building their own homes and are living."
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Old 15th June 2019, 05:51 PM   #170
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Nope, I said recently.... 120 years ago is not recent in any sense of global history.

Also, your Philippines example does not meet the criteria "...territory that the USA has recently occupied, that is now under rule by the US Government, and to which Americans have moved to and are building their own homes and are living."
You also said

Quote:
Go learn some history.

The USA expanded from the east coast until they reached the west coast, and they they stopped. The two pieces of "expansionism" were 152 years ago 1867 when the USA purchased Alaska from Russia (for 2c/acre), and the annexation of Hawaii 121 years ago in 1898. The people of Hawaii VOTED to become a US state in 1959 with 93% of voters in favour.
It sounded like 'the two pieces of "expansionism" ' was meant to be all-inclusive.

It's okay if you simply forgot, or didn't know about the Philippines. Like most countries America doesn't exactly push its educational system to cover the more embarrassing bits. Heck, I had AP US history in high school and the whole Spanish-American War was only brought up as background for Teddy Roosevelt and blamed entirely on Hearst. The aftermath and the Philippines weren't covered.
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Old 15th June 2019, 06:09 PM   #171
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
You also said

It sounded like 'the two pieces of "expansionism" ' was meant to be all-inclusive.

It's okay if you simply forgot, or didn't know about the Philippines. Like most countries America doesn't exactly push its educational system to cover the more embarrassing bits. Heck, I had AP US history in high school and the whole Spanish-American War was only brought up as background for Teddy Roosevelt and blamed entirely on Hearst. The aftermath and the Philippines weren't covered.
Yes I knew about the US-Philippines War; I learned about it in College (6th Form History class) 50 years ago... I didn't count it because it did not fit the criteria.

Alaska... bought from the Russians + settled by Americans + became a state + governed by the USA = expansion of the borders of USA.

Hawaii... annexed by the USA + settled by Americans + became a state + governed by the USA = expansion of the borders of USA.

but

Philippines... went to war with the USA + lost the war and surrendered + NOT settled by Americans + granted independence and is NOT governed by the USA expansion of the borders of USA.
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Old 15th June 2019, 06:14 PM   #172
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Yes I knew about the US-Philippines War; I learned about it in College (6th Form History class) 50 years ago... I didn't count it because it did not fit the criteria.

Alaska... bought from the Russians + settled by Americans + became a state + governed by the USA = expansion of the borders of USA.

Hawaii... annexed by the USA + settled by Americans + became a state + governed by the USA = expansion of the borders of USA.

but

Philippines... went to war with the USA + lost the war and surrendered + NOT settled by Americans + granted independence and is NOT governed by the USA expansion of the borders of USA.
We got it, tried to keep it against its will, and failed to do so. We can't claim credit for being above imperialism just because we happened to fail at our attempt! The thief who gets caught by the police and forced to return the stolen property can't claim he's not a thief on the grounds that he didn't get to keep what he stole!
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Old 15th June 2019, 07:25 PM   #173
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
We got it, tried to keep it against its will, and failed to do so. We can't claim credit for being above imperialism just because we happened to fail at our attempt! The thief who gets caught by the police and forced to return the stolen property can't claim he's not a thief on the grounds that he didn't get to keep what he stole!
Sorry, I must have missed something. When exactly, did the USA attempt to make the Philippines a territory and then encourage American citizens to move there to live, and then attempt to make it a state, and to govern it from Washington DC, and to expand its borders to include the Philippines as part of the USA? I must have missed that part of the lesson.

All that might have happened on Planet X, but it never happened on this planet

What China is attempting to do in the South China Sea is the same as if the USA were to claim all of the Pacific Ocean from the West Coast of the USA up as for north as Alaska, and as far west as Guam, American Samoa and the Northern Marianas Islands was all territorial waters.
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Old 15th June 2019, 09:06 PM   #174
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Sorry, I must have missed something. When exactly, did the USA attempt to make the Philippines a territory and then encourage American citizens to move there to live, and then attempt to make it a state, and to govern it from Washington DC, and to expand its borders to include the Philippines as part of the USA? I must have missed that part of the lesson.

All that might have happened on Planet X, but it never happened on this planet

What China is attempting to do in the South China Sea is the same as if the USA were to claim all of the Pacific Ocean from the West Coast of the USA up as for north as Alaska, and as far west as Guam, American Samoa and the Northern Marianas Islands was all territorial waters.
You started off trying to say the US has never been imperialist, then you want to refine the question to exclude the most glaring example of US being imperialist. First you edited history, then you set an arbitrary scope in time, and now you're redefining the term "imperialism" to mean something much narrower than everybody else uses it for.

Which has nothing to do with China or current events in the slightest, unless you really think history offers some sort of justification for current actions and policies. I don't think it does, even actual history which isn't carefully edited to meet such uses.
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Old 16th June 2019, 12:33 AM   #175
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Originally Posted by CORed View Post
That would be trawling. Trolling is another method of fishing, where lures and/or bait are dragged behind a moving boat, using a rod and real. [/pedantry]

I hereby call upon the MODS to have CORed removed from active service for being a Trawl.
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Old 16th June 2019, 03:36 AM   #176
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
You started off trying to say the US has never been imperialist
There is your mistake... I didn't say that or claim that!
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