ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags boy scouts

Reply
Old 24th October 2017, 08:07 AM   #201
Argumemnon
World Maker
 
Argumemnon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the thick of things
Posts: 68,288
Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
Your assumption that 11 year olds could not possibly write such a question is not agreed upon.
I thought the question was about whether it was likely, not whether it was possible.
__________________
渦巻く暗雲天を殺し 現る凶事のうなりか

Argumemnon is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th October 2017, 08:11 AM   #202
Argumemnon
World Maker
 
Argumemnon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the thick of things
Posts: 68,288
Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
It was a rhetorical device from here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2sVdXg0aYYw
Called it.
__________________
渦巻く暗雲天を殺し 現る凶事のうなりか

Argumemnon is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th October 2017, 08:30 AM   #203
crescent
Graduate Poster
 
crescent's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 1,771
Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
I see that BSA has confirmed that he has changed units.
I live in a community adjacent to Broomfield. Its' not inconceivable that the kid transferred into my son's pack, although I would have expected an email to the parents if that happened (the announcement was made on Friday, we meet on Thursdays, so absent an email I would not know until later this week). We seem to be a pretty middle-of-the-road, secular group as cub scouts go. Some of the parents are conservative, some are liberal, we all get along.

I couldn't imagine a kid (or parent) getting kicked out of our pack for this sort of thing.

Last edited by crescent; 24th October 2017 at 08:32 AM.
crescent is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th October 2017, 09:05 AM   #204
Stout
Illuminator
 
Stout's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Canada
Posts: 3,204
Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
I don't know if they still ban atheists.
Yes they do. They take everybody else which means that if my atheist kid wanted to join scouts there's a strong possibility he would be discriminated against by a member(s) of a group(s) that howl when people discriminate against them for being who they are.

Go figure.
Stout is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th October 2017, 09:08 AM   #205
Argumemnon
World Maker
 
Argumemnon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the thick of things
Posts: 68,288
Originally Posted by Stout View Post
Yes they do. They take everybody else which means that if my atheist kid wanted to join scouts there's a strong possibility he would be discriminated against by a member(s) of a group(s) that howl when people discriminate against them for being who they are.

Go figure.
Humans generally only care about fairness when it's for them.
__________________
渦巻く暗雲天を殺し 現る凶事のうなりか

Argumemnon is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th October 2017, 09:25 AM   #206
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 23,174
Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
Your assumptions are not borne out by the evidence. You know who look like complete twats? People trying to twist this story into an evil overbearing stage mother.
Sure, okay. But on the topic of twisting the story--what story? If you watched the video without preamble, would you consider it noteworthy in any way? Would you see a story there?

If someone then told you the kid got kicked out of scouts for that, would you think it likely? Would you think it likely enough to actually care about it?

Other than the narrative being pushed by the mom, what's the actual story?
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th October 2017, 09:32 AM   #207
TheL8Elvis
Philosopher
 
TheL8Elvis's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 7,693
Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
The question about how much of the question was the kids is a sidetrack*. The BSA has confirmed that the cub was expelled from his den.

I'm struggling to see why. I know that the BSA is significantly behind most other worldwide scouting organisations (the UK has dedicated LGBT support, for example) but even so, asking difficult questions should not be grounds for expulsion. Continual failure to pay subscriptions (if you can afford it) or severe bad behaviour, generally persistent would be the only reasons I can think of.

Asking a difficult question (whether coached or not) should not be anywhere near this. As an outsider, it seems that the BSA is a very conformist organisation, in some ways, even more so than Scouts under Baden Powell, who had some quite progressive views for an Edwardian.



*
I could imagine my kids asking some such questions; for example the primary school had a ticklist of features of writing for particular levels, and a couple of teachers wanted the kids to use the highest-level features that they could in all their writing. My daughter disagreed, because she argued that sometime subordinate clauses detracted from the writing. My son in particular, has also been interested in politics, philosophy, and language and again was similarly competent at the same age


ETA: And further to the idea that kids develop at different rates, my ex-wife used to run a local Brownies group (8-10 yr old girls) and she started sanity checking the activities for difficulty, by seeing if our 6-yr old daughter would be able to follow the instructions or find them too difficult. She found that didn't work, and ended up seeing if our 4-yr old son could follow the instructions. If so, then it probably was simple enough for most of the Brownies .

My kids were/are all at the top of their classes in most subjects, but are not prodigies, just pretty bright.

I can't find any evidence of the hilited ... link ?

ETA :

Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post

If you challenge the mother's story, that's fine. People who are interested can discuss that. I see that BSA has confirmed that he has changed units.
On Friday, in response to questions about why Ames was removed from the den, the Boy Scouts of America said only that Ames was now in another unit.

“The Boy Scouts of America and the Denver Area Council are pleased that the family will continue their participation in Scouting,” the statement said.

“We are committed to working with families to find local units that best fit their needs,” it said.

The organization declined to respond to multiple requests for more details about what Ms. Mayfield had been told by the local pack leader.
__________________
"There is a cult of ignorance in the United States...nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'" - Isaac Asimov

Last edited by TheL8Elvis; 24th October 2017 at 09:35 AM.
TheL8Elvis is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th October 2017, 09:37 AM   #208
TheL8Elvis
Philosopher
 
TheL8Elvis's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 7,693
Originally Posted by TheL8Elvis View Post
You miss my point. I agreee it is an argument from incredulity to say that an eleven Year old couldn’t have come up with that question. My point is it doesn’t matter. Are we really setting out to prove this ? Or are we discussing the likelihood ?
Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
I'm not the one making the claim and insisting it is fact.
Neither am I.

It didn't seem to me meadmaker was either.

Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
I thought the question was about whether it was likely, not whether it was possible.
Me too. *shrugs*
__________________
"There is a cult of ignorance in the United States...nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'" - Isaac Asimov
TheL8Elvis is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th October 2017, 09:55 AM   #209
crescent
Graduate Poster
 
crescent's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 1,771
I am guessing the the BSA leadership here in Denver is just trying to wait this out.

So far, they have not denied anything the mother said, neither have they confirmed anything.

I get the impression that the organization is moving to the left (socially), but is facing quite a bit of internal resistance. They are caught in the middle of social change and division, and don't quite know how to handle it.

Atheism was mentioned a few posts ago. The Cub Scout pack I was in as a kid in the 1970's was very secular, the "Duty to God" requirement was pretty much a rubber stamp. My son's pack today is very similar, they make it clear that the Duty to God thing can be done very much in more of a comparative religion type of thing, and if you don't do it, they just give the kid a patch anyway, I doubt they are the only pack like that.

In effect, many packs allow atheism, but they do it more by looking the other way than by admitting it.

Some packs still require active religious behavior. I get the impression that many other packs are not like this, though.

In some places, it might be hard to find a really secular scout group. I kept my son out of scouts when we lived in Utah for just that reason - every single Cub Scout group in Utah met at a Mormon church. Now in Colorado, he's in a group that meets in a public school.

The big scout camp we go to every summer still has prayers before meals, but they are very strongly non-denominational, no mention of anything more specific than "God" or "Lord", nothing from the bible or any other religious scripture. I have lived among Hindus and Muslims and Sikhs, the prayers used at camp would have been acceptable to any of them, I would guess.

I would guess that the next big change would be to move towards allowing packs and troops to choose to accept atheists (on a pack/troop by pack/troop basis, as they are currently starting to do with girls).

Baby steps. BSA is making baby steps, but that's better than no steps or moving backwards.
crescent is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th October 2017, 10:23 AM   #210
Upchurch
Papa Funkosophy
 
Upchurch's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: St. Louis, MO
Posts: 29,973
Originally Posted by TheL8Elvis View Post
Neither am I.

It didn't seem to me meadmaker was either.
Previously:
Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Those questions weren't written by an eleven year old.
__________________
"There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact." -- Sherlock Holmes.
"You are the herp to my derp" -- bit_pattern
Upchurch is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th October 2017, 10:24 AM   #211
Meadmaker
Penultimate Amazing
 
Meadmaker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 17,049
Originally Posted by crescent View Post
I am guessing the the BSA leadership here in Denver is just trying to wait this out.

So far, they have not denied anything the mother said, neither have they confirmed anything.
I can't imagine them doing anything else. Public statements on a topic like this one are just invitations for someone to kick them in the butt. As long as no one is suing anyone, keep your mouth shut and keep it that way.


I've been involved in some conflict resolution with BSA at the Boy Scout level. In my experience, they would avoid taking sides, but neither would they allow a Scout to be kicked out for a flimsy reason. With Cub Scouts, things might be a bit different. You're dealing with moms or dads and small groups. They might give den mothers a bit more latitude in deciding who to keep or toss. If it were just a case of "We threw this kid out because he asked about gun control", I would expect BSA leadership to at the very least put a lot of pressure on the den leader to back down, but I don't know whether, when all was said and done, they would let the den leader decide.

I think there's a bit more to this story, though. It might still involve a den leader who is a jerk, but it isn't a simple case of punishing a kid for asking about a taboo topic, or taking a wrong position on that topic.
Meadmaker is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th October 2017, 11:20 AM   #212
Meadmaker
Penultimate Amazing
 
Meadmaker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 17,049
Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
Previously:

A time honored JREF/ISF tradition. Arguing about whether somebody said something. This is far more important than actually understanding the point someone is making.


I believe that kid and his mother cooperated very closely on that question/speech, enough to say that Big Dog's characterization of "feeding him" the question is reasonable. Meanwhile, the core element of the story, the thing that makes it marginally newsworthy, is the mother's claim that the kid was tossed from his den because he asked a question on gun control. I find that claim incredibly unlikely.
Meadmaker is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th October 2017, 12:02 PM   #213
TheL8Elvis
Philosopher
 
TheL8Elvis's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 7,693
Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
A time honored JREF/ISF tradition. Arguing about whether somebody said something. This is far more important than actually understanding the point someone is making.
Arguing about what some said, then 'scoring points' by pointing out OMG FALLACY !!11! Then pontificating about 'critical thinking" while not actually doing any.

Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
I believe that kid and his mother cooperated very closely on that question/speech, enough to say that Big Dog's characterization of "feeding him" the question is reasonable. Meanwhile, the core element of the story, the thing that makes it marginally newsworthy, is the mother's claim that the kid was tossed from his den because he asked a question on gun control. I find that claim incredibly unlikely.
Agreed on all points.
__________________
"There is a cult of ignorance in the United States...nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'" - Isaac Asimov
TheL8Elvis is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th October 2017, 12:56 PM   #214
Upchurch
Papa Funkosophy
 
Upchurch's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: St. Louis, MO
Posts: 29,973
Originally Posted by TheL8Elvis View Post
Arguing about what some said, then 'scoring points' by pointing out OMG FALLACY !!11! Then pontificating about 'critical thinking" while not actually doing any.
"A very limited number of children that I personally know act a certain way therefore all children act that way" is not critical thinking. It isn't even a valid argument. Why is this controversial?
__________________
"There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact." -- Sherlock Holmes.
"You are the herp to my derp" -- bit_pattern
Upchurch is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th October 2017, 01:02 PM   #215
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 23,174
Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
"A very limited number of children that I personally know act a certain way therefore all children act that way" is not critical thinking. It isn't even a valid argument. Why is this controversial?
The only controversy about this that I see is the manufactured one. Pretty small molehill you've chosen to die on today, Upchurch.

Last edited by theprestige; 24th October 2017 at 01:04 PM.
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th October 2017, 01:03 PM   #216
The Big Dog
Penultimate Amazing
 
The Big Dog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 20,923
Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
Agreed. My third grader could easily have reached that kind of question.

I'm also willing to bet that the parents talk about politics at home. Not necessarily expressing those exact opinions but perhaps discussing the topics.
Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
"A very limited number of children that I personally know act a certain way therefore all children act that way" is not critical thinking. It isn't even a valid argument. Why is this controversial?
Umm....
__________________
Cleanliness is next to Godliness.
The Big Dog is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th October 2017, 01:07 PM   #217
jimbob
Uncritical "thinker"
 
jimbob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 15,728
Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
This.



I would guess (and only guess) that the national organization is walking a fine line between not pissing off the various factions involved, especially the local Packs/Troops, to whom they have been transferring more and more responsibility for the hard membership decisions lately. Letting the Pack kick him out of that den fits that pattern. And, honestly, if the den leader is that much at odds with a scout, forcing them to remain together is probably isn't a good idea anyway.
I looking at this from my viewpoint as a volunteer Scout Leader in the UK.

We have a fair amount of leeway in many aspects, but would be well out of compliance if we expelled someone without good reason - which this would not be. It's not something I have had to consider but the mission statement of the Scouts includes explicitly not discriminating on grounds of political or religious belief, race, gender orientation or sexuality.

Holding uncomfortable political views is not going to be sufficient, nor would talking about them in a question session
__________________
OECD healthcare spending
Expenditure on healthcare
http://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/health-data.htm
link is 2015 data (2013 Data below):
UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending
US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending
jimbob is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th October 2017, 01:07 PM   #218
William Parcher
Show me the monkey!
 
William Parcher's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 17,988
Maybe they want him out to prevent bullying. Other Cubs in that Den may give him trouble if they now think he wants to punch a hole in the 2nd Amendment.
__________________
Bigfoot believers and Bigfoot skeptics are both plumb crazy. Each spends more than one minute per year thinking about Bigfoot.
William Parcher is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th October 2017, 01:12 PM   #219
quadraginta
Becoming Beth
 
quadraginta's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Central Vale of Humility
Posts: 19,459
Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Maybe they want him out to prevent bullying. Other Cubs in that Den may give him trouble if they now think he wants to punch a hole in the 2nd Amendment.

Don't be ridiculous.

We have it on good authority that kids that age are unconcerned with politics.
__________________
"It never does just what I want, but only what I tell it."
quadraginta is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th October 2017, 01:44 PM   #220
Upchurch
Papa Funkosophy
 
Upchurch's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: St. Louis, MO
Posts: 29,973
Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Umm....

"Willing to bet" != "Those questions weren't written by an eleven year old"

Aside from being an idiom, the former indicates some uncertainty. The latter is declarative.


Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
We have it on good authority that kids that age are unconcerned with politics.
And incapable of writing intelligently about it.
__________________
"There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact." -- Sherlock Holmes.
"You are the herp to my derp" -- bit_pattern

Last edited by Upchurch; 24th October 2017 at 01:45 PM.
Upchurch is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th October 2017, 01:47 PM   #221
The Big Dog
Penultimate Amazing
 
The Big Dog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 20,923
Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post

"Willing to bet" != "Those questions weren't written by an eleven year old"

Aside from being an idiom, the former indicates some uncertainty. The latter is declarative.



And incapable of writing intelligently about it.
Might want to take another look at the two emails I just juxtaposed....
__________________
Cleanliness is next to Godliness.
The Big Dog is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th October 2017, 01:48 PM   #222
William Parcher
Show me the monkey!
 
William Parcher's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 17,988
Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
We have it on good authority that kids that age are unconcerned with politics.
A kid might not know nuthin' bout the this or that with politics but he may know that a lot of people want to take away his daddy's guns."Hey Ames. Are you one of them? I might wanna fight you."
__________________
Bigfoot believers and Bigfoot skeptics are both plumb crazy. Each spends more than one minute per year thinking about Bigfoot.
William Parcher is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th October 2017, 09:56 AM   #223
Dr. Keith
Not a doctor.
 
Dr. Keith's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Texas
Posts: 14,168
Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
It was a rhetorical device from here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2sVdXg0aYYw
Well played, I'm a bit embarrassed that I missed it. I'll just say I picked a bad week to stop sniffing glue and leave it at that.
__________________
I once proposed a fun ban.

Suffering is not a punishment not a fruit of sin, it is a gift of God.
He allows us to share in His suffering and to make up for the sins of the world. -Mother Teresa
Dr. Keith is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th October 2017, 10:04 AM   #224
Argumemnon
World Maker
 
Argumemnon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the thick of things
Posts: 68,288
Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
Well played, I'm a bit embarrassed that I missed it. I'll just say I picked a bad week to stop sniffing glue and leave it at that.
I say: let 'em crash.
__________________
渦巻く暗雲天を殺し 現る凶事のうなりか

Argumemnon is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th October 2017, 02:47 PM   #225
Dr. Keith
Not a doctor.
 
Dr. Keith's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Texas
Posts: 14,168
Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
I say: let 'em crash.
Joey, do you like movies about gladiators?
__________________
I once proposed a fun ban.

Suffering is not a punishment not a fruit of sin, it is a gift of God.
He allows us to share in His suffering and to make up for the sins of the world. -Mother Teresa
Dr. Keith is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st November 2017, 07:08 AM   #226
Chanakya

 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 301
Originally Posted by bruto View Post
I don't know the whole story here, but would put in two thoughts:

First of all, whether the parent put the kid up to it or not should not matter if it is a legitimate concern. If a child put forth a question or a comment based on his religious indoctrination, it likely would not raise an eyebrow. ...

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Touché.

Wouldn’t that be a classic “tu quoque” there?

Surely everyone here, irrespective of their general political views, would disagree with the woman’s apparent use of her child to push her own views? (If indeed that is what she was doing -- and whether that is what she was in fact doing is a whole different discussion, one that I’m not getting into here).

I’m sure we all (or most of us) are not in favor of how parents tend to indoctrinate their children with the religious views that they (the parents) subscribe to. Surely the lesson here ought to be that one should not be doing this at all, in any form? Rather than arguing the exact opposite, that because parents tend to do this when it comes to religion, it is therefore acceptable to do this when it comes to politics?


ETA : Perhaps what I’m saying has already been discussed in one of the posts here? If that is the case, I apologize. It’s not as if this thread, in itself, holds any great interest for me : although I do enjoy seeing “critical thinking” in action, in the various discussions here, even when the subject matter itself holds little interest for me. So I’m afraid I’ve only skimmed through some pages and some posts here, and not gone through each and every post in this thread.

Last edited by Chanakya; 1st November 2017 at 07:13 AM.
Chanakya is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st November 2017, 07:17 AM   #227
johnny karate
... and your little dog too.
 
johnny karate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 10,686
Originally Posted by Chanakya View Post
Wouldn’t that be a classic “tu quoque” there?

Surely everyone here, irrespective of their general political views, would disagree with the woman’s apparent use of her child to push her own views? (If indeed that is what she was doing -- and whether that is what she was in fact doing is a whole different discussion, one that I’m not getting into here).

I’m sure we all (or most of us) are not in favor of how parents tend to indoctrinate their children with the religious views that they (the parents) subscribe to. Surely the lesson here ought to be that one should not be doing this at all, in any form? Rather than arguing the exact opposite, that because parents tend to do this when it comes to religion, it is therefore acceptable to do this when it comes to politics?


ETA : Perhaps what I’m saying has already been discussed in one of the posts here? If that is the case, I apologize. It’s not as if this thread, in itself, holds any great interest for me : although I do enjoy seeing “critical thinking” in action, in the various discussions here, even when the subject matter itself holds little interest for me. So I’m afraid I’ve only skimmed through some pages and some posts here, and not gone through each and every post in this thread.
Pointing out hypocrisy isn't a tu quoque.
johnny karate is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st November 2017, 07:29 AM   #228
Chanakya

 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 301
Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
Pointing out hypocrisy isn't a tu quoque.

What bruto had said there was "whether the parent put the kid up to it or not should not matter if it is a legitimate concern". And Skeptic Ginger seemed to agree with that point of view.

Surely whether some parent puts some kid up to simply reflecting their (the parents') views should always matter? Even when it is a legitimate concern?

bruto's post didn't seem to merely criticize the hypocrisy, it actually seemed to excuse the parent's conduct (in egregiously influencing the child's POV -- provided that is what she actually did) on those grounds.


Edited :
Or perhaps you're saying that is all bruto meant to convey, although they didn't actually spell it out in so many words? (And that Skeptic Ginger understood what they were trying to convey? Based on personal knowledge of bruto's thoughts, basis past interaction with them, despite the fact that this was not actually spelt out in the post itself?) Is that what you're trying to say?

If that is indeed the case, then I'm afraid it was I who missed out on that nuance.

Last edited by Chanakya; 1st November 2017 at 07:56 AM.
Chanakya is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st November 2017, 11:57 AM   #229
bruto
Penultimate Amazing
 
bruto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Way way north of Diddy Wah Diddy
Posts: 21,693
Originally Posted by Chanakya View Post
What bruto had said there was "whether the parent put the kid up to it or not should not matter if it is a legitimate concern". And Skeptic Ginger seemed to agree with that point of view.

Surely whether some parent puts some kid up to simply reflecting their (the parents') views should always matter? Even when it is a legitimate concern?

bruto's post didn't seem to merely criticize the hypocrisy, it actually seemed to excuse the parent's conduct (in egregiously influencing the child's POV -- provided that is what she actually did) on those grounds.


Edited :
Or perhaps you're saying that is all bruto meant to convey, although they didn't actually spell it out in so many words? (And that Skeptic Ginger understood what they were trying to convey? Based on personal knowledge of bruto's thoughts, basis past interaction with them, despite the fact that this was not actually spelt out in the post itself?) Is that what you're trying to say?

If that is indeed the case, then I'm afraid it was I who missed out on that nuance.
Yes, basically I am indeed saying that if we are going to allow that kids learn values, including religion and politics, from their parents, then while we might prefer that kids act with independence and autonomy, the issue of how much or how little part a parent took in the formulation of a question should, I think, matter less than whether the question was a reasonable one to ask.

I don't consider that a "tu quoque" because I would not consider it particularly out of line for a Catholic or Buddhist, or whatever, child to ask questions with a slant derived from their religion. If a Mormon child asked a liberal legislator about policies on abortion or gay rights, I would expect the legislator to try to answer them, and consider an angry intervention by someone else to be inappropriate, even if it is considered likely that the child is parroting religious indoctrination rather than independent thought.
__________________
Sir, I have found you an argument; but I am not obliged to find you an understanding. (Samuel Johnson)

I love this world, but not for its answers. (Mary Oliver)
bruto is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st November 2017, 12:02 PM   #230
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 63,337
Originally Posted by Chanakya View Post
What bruto had said there was "whether the parent put the kid up to it or not should not matter if it is a legitimate concern". And Skeptic Ginger seemed to agree with that point of view.
For the record, touché in my post referred to the hypocrisy.
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st November 2017, 05:09 PM   #231
bruto
Penultimate Amazing
 
bruto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Way way north of Diddy Wah Diddy
Posts: 21,693
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
For the record, touché in my post referred to the hypocrisy.
And just for the record and less windily expressed, yes, it's the hypocrisy.
__________________
Sir, I have found you an argument; but I am not obliged to find you an understanding. (Samuel Johnson)

I love this world, but not for its answers. (Mary Oliver)
bruto is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st November 2017, 08:11 PM   #232
Checkmite
Skepticifimisticalationist
 
Checkmite's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Gulf Coast
Posts: 21,132
Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Might want to take another look at the two emails I just juxtaposed....
Upchurch's observation doesn't imply something is true of "all kids", just some of them.
__________________
"¿WHAT KIND OF BIRD?
¿A PARANORMAL BIRD?"
--- Carlos S., 2002
Checkmite is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st November 2017, 08:25 PM   #233
fuelair
Cythraul Enfys
 
fuelair's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 55,400
Scout was on the Samantha Bee show tonight - ended it...... and she suggested seeing if he could make a Republican (being kind) cry next time the opportunity came up!!!!!!
__________________
There is no problem so great that it cannot be fixed by small explosives carefully placed.

Wash this space!

We fight for the Lady Babylon!!!
fuelair is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st November 2017, 08:57 PM   #234
Noztradamus
Illuminator
 
Noztradamus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 4,595
Originally Posted by fuelair View Post
Scout was on the Samantha Bee show tonight - ended it...... and she suggested seeing if he could make a Republican (being kind) cry next time the opportunity came up!!!!!!
Everybody wants to make the kid a tool.
__________________
The Australian Family Association's John Morrissey was aghast when he learned Jessica Watson was bidding to become the youngest person to sail round the world alone, unaided and without stopping.
Noztradamus is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd November 2017, 07:17 AM   #235
Meadmaker
Penultimate Amazing
 
Meadmaker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 17,049
Originally Posted by Noztradamus View Post
Everybody wants to make the kid a tool.
Meh....he probably got paid for the appearance. Splashing his name all over the media is pretty bad....but if he's getting paid for it, why not?


I'll have to see if I can find more about it. I can see all sorts of interesting issues possibly popping up, depending what he said.
Meadmaker is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th November 2017, 09:16 PM   #236
fuelair
Cythraul Enfys
 
fuelair's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 55,400
Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Meh....he probably got paid for the appearance. Splashing his name all over the media is pretty bad....but if he's getting paid for it, why not?


I'll have to see if I can find more about it. I can see all sorts of interesting issues possibly popping up, depending what he said.
He told her he would try!!
__________________
There is no problem so great that it cannot be fixed by small explosives carefully placed.

Wash this space!

We fight for the Lady Babylon!!!
fuelair is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th November 2017, 12:52 AM   #237
Meadmaker
Penultimate Amazing
 
Meadmaker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 17,049
Originally Posted by fuelair View Post
He told her he would try!!
I watched the tape of the appearance. There wasn't much to see. I was kind of hoping for some sort of interview, but that didn't really happen. Just a brief appearance.
Meadmaker is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 02:41 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
© 2014, TribeTech AB. All Rights Reserved.
This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.