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29th August 2017, 12:36 PM | #201 |
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29th August 2017, 01:10 PM | #202 |
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During one of Arpaio's campaigns or Trump's presidential campaign? Because the Orange Führer has also destroyed countless documents that were requested in his (civil) litigations.
Whenever I hear that a party destroyed relevant documents, personally I conclude that the point that the other party wanted to prove with those documents is apparently true. IMHO, that would also be the correct sanction in litigation. |
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29th August 2017, 01:32 PM | #203 |
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29th August 2017, 01:42 PM | #204 |
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Which is ironic, because allegedly, reactionaries object to an overreaching government bureaucrat wasting taxpayer dollars on personal empire building. But hey, if he's beating up the brownies, well, that's not waste then I guess.
This is the silver lining. There's potential for other cases to be brought forward. This crook was not very famous outside his state, so the national exposure means more funds for new plaintiffs. Ideally, any future conviction might be state criminal code, which the president can't pardon. He only has the power to pardon federal convictions. |
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29th August 2017, 01:52 PM | #205 |
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First off, if "racist" encompasses everything from not being up to speed on the latest changes to approved vernacular all the way to KKK Grand Dragon, the word starts to lose its punch.
My anecdotal observation is nearly every time I or another accused person ask for clarification/unpacking, that request itself is portrayed as hostile/micro-aggression/gaslighting/invalidating. Believe it or not, some people have no interest in conflict resolution or social justice, they are just amused by emotionally blackmailing people. |
30th August 2017, 01:29 AM | #206 |
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While I think you're right, it gets further complicated in that some people who ask for clarification/unpacking are themselves being disingenuous.
Anecdotally I've found myself on the the other end, trying to patiently explain why for instance asking an Asian person "No where are you really from?" may not be cool and getting JAQing off in bad faith. In fact, more recently on a lot of issues where there tends to be a liberal/conservative divide I've found myself in a position where I see someone in disagreement with who is asking questions and seems open to discussion, but it quickly gets somewhere like this- "So we both agree that if A is true then B is true, right?' "Yes." "And we both agree that A is true right?" "Yes." "So then B is true" "What? No, of course not." One part of dealing with racism, is that it's kind of unfair that people of color often get tasked with the huge emotional and real labor of explaining racism, often to people who aren't communicating in good faith. It can be exhausting and irritating, so it isn't too surprising that some people don't want to assume good faith in people who don't do their own work in learning about racism and expect people affected by it to fight them into it. |
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30th August 2017, 07:46 PM | #207 |
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Joe Arpaio saga isn't over: Judge to decide if his conviction stands
I'm guessing the judge will ultimately capitulate, but she's going to get her pound of flesh first.
Quote:
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31st August 2017, 03:21 PM | #208 |
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Not sure why you think she will capitulate. There is case law that seems to indicate accepting a pardon is an admission of guilt.
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31st August 2017, 05:16 PM | #209 |
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There is no Antimemetics Division. |
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31st August 2017, 05:37 PM | #210 |
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31st August 2017, 07:06 PM | #211 |
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31st August 2017, 09:37 PM | #212 |
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1st September 2017, 03:01 AM | #213 |
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1st September 2017, 03:11 AM | #214 |
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Doesn't it happen all the time for prisoners who would be eligible for parole but maintain their innocence so they're not released on license? EDIT: Or what others have said above. There's a whole Wikipedia page about it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Innoce...er%27s_dilemma |
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1st September 2017, 03:29 AM | #215 |
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1st September 2017, 03:44 AM | #216 |
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There appears to be as much case law saying that accepting a pardon is not an admission of guilt.
An articel by a conlaw professor: Is accepting a pardon an admission of guilt?
Quote:
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1st September 2017, 07:09 AM | #217 |
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"A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep." "Ninety percent of the politicians give the other ten percent a bad reputation." |
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1st September 2017, 07:37 AM | #218 |
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1st September 2017, 08:41 AM | #219 |
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I'm sure that legally accepting a pardon isn't an admission of guilt. Just like taking the fifth. In the minds of the public, however, both pretty much are.
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1st September 2017, 09:03 AM | #220 |
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Was Arpaio actually found guilty in a court of law?
If so, then he IS guilty, regardless of his protestations. Guilty is defined by law. If a judge/jury finds you guilty, you are guilty in the eyes of the law, by definition, regardless of whether you think you are or not. So accepting a pardon would merely be an admission that you were found guilty in a court of law. Which, if it happened, is undeniable. Now, if the case is on-going and he has not been found guilty yet, then the pardon could just be for crimes he may or may not have committed. Basically like Ford's pardon of Nixon. He never said Nixon did it, just that, if he did, he's pardoned. |
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1st September 2017, 09:13 AM | #221 |
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I'm equally sure that you're wrong. I've got nine guys in black robes (no, not a satanist reunion) who agree with me. There are two major cases involving pardons that made the Supreme Court. The first was under Jackson's administration, the second Woodrow Wilson's.
Both opinions clearly state that accepting a pardon has with it an implication of guilt. |
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1st September 2017, 11:31 AM | #222 |
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Without reading the opinions, it seems to me that the only way this works is if the pardon is accepted in advance of prosecution during which one would presumably try to prove their innocence. Otherwise, it's just sensible and practical to accept a pardon instead of suffering the consequences of conviction, regardless of guilt.
ETA: Practically, it would only be at issue in a court if one was prosecuted on a different level from that to which the pardon applies (e.g., being prosecuted on a federal civil rights charge for a crime which a governor had previously pardoned, or perhaps in the case of a civil lawsuit). |
1st September 2017, 11:36 AM | #223 |
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Cum catapultae proscribeantur tum soli proscripti catapultas habeant. |
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1st September 2017, 11:43 AM | #224 |
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https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...sion-of-guilt/
Legal authorities, then, are split on the subject of how the law should understand pardons; but because some pardons are understood as being based on the pardoned person’s factual innocence, I doubt that any judge today would genuinely view acceptance of pardon as always being an admission of guilt. And my sense (though I realize that it might be mistaken) is that most people’s moral judgment today would be that, even if a pardon is offered just as a gesture of mercy and not as exoneration, the recipient may honorably accept it even if they continue to deny their factual guilt or their moral guilt. |
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1st September 2017, 11:43 AM | #225 |
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The underlying implication is that one cannot plead the 5th on issues pertaining to that matter. Having been pardoned, one's statements are not legally incriminating (no possible prosecution would result from them).
Now, I haven't read Trump's pardon. What did he pardon Arpaio for? The contempt alone? Well, then he'd still be free to invoke the 5th about all his grievous misdeeds as Sheriff. If he was broadly pardoned, then we need to get him on a witness stand to at least have to utter the words in front of people. Perhaps the most minimal and yet powerful bit of justice that can ever be extracted: admission and acknowledgment into the public record of what the truth was. |
19th September 2017, 02:06 PM | #226 |
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20th September 2017, 05:21 AM | #227 |
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Oops, left out murdered as there were a number of those also on his watch!!!
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20th September 2017, 12:11 PM | #228 |
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