IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags Iowa politics , racism charges , racism issues , republicans , Steve King , white nationalism , white nationalists

Reply
Old 19th August 2019, 03:38 PM   #441
Stacyhs
Penultimate Amazing
 
Stacyhs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: United States
Posts: 32,926
Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
One of resident "Conservatives" now celebrates rape.
Just incredible.
Needless to say, all his "real history" is just Macho B.S.
BTW that quote was swiped by the screen writers of "Conan The Barbarian" from a statement supposedly made by Genghis KHan, though most historians consider it mythical.
In fact, I am beginning to wonder if we don't have a Troll at work here.
You're only beginning to wonder now?
Stacyhs is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th August 2019, 03:42 PM   #442
phiwum
Penultimate Amazing
 
phiwum's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 13,384
Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
Thanks. But I still have no idea what he meant in the first post. If only that meme wasn't so darned funny, perhaps he could've explained himself.
phiwum is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th August 2019, 03:53 PM   #443
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: The Antimemetics Division
Posts: 69,914
Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
Thanks. But I still have no idea what he meant in the first post. If only that meme wasn't so darned funny, perhaps he could've explained himself.
The meme was the explanation. I don't believe you didn't understand the first post.

What part did you not understand?

The part where squeeg liked something?

The part where one should like their own work?

The part where it would be weird if squeeg didn't like the thing he liked?

The part where stitching those three things together into a conclusion is left as an exercise for the reader?
__________________
There is no Antimemetics Division.
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th August 2019, 04:41 PM   #444
PhantomWolf
Penultimate Amazing
 
PhantomWolf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 21,203
Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
This might possibly have been the last straw. According to Reuters, Steve King held a town hall in Grundy Center, Iowa today and this is what it looked like:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ECMeaASXUAEJUNP.jpg
The sad thing is that half the audience was a reporter, and the other half was a Democrat supporter who went to challenge him on policies.

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE
__________________

It must be fun to lead a life completely unburdened by reality. -- JayUtah
I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question. -- Charles Babbage (1791-1871)

PhantomWolf is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th August 2019, 05:20 PM   #445
dudalb
Penultimate Amazing
 
dudalb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 60,375
Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
The sad thing is that half the audience was a reporter, and the other half was a Democrat supporter who went to challenge him on policies.

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE
Truly pathetic for King. You think a few people would show up out of idle curiosity.
__________________
Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty.

Robert Heinlein.
dudalb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th August 2019, 05:32 PM   #446
Stacyhs
Penultimate Amazing
 
Stacyhs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: United States
Posts: 32,926
Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Truly pathetic for King. You think a few people would show up out of idle curiosity.
Trump will probably tweet that it's fake news and King's town hall was packed to capacity.
Stacyhs is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th August 2019, 05:59 PM   #447
phiwum
Penultimate Amazing
 
phiwum's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 13,384
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
The meme was the explanation. I don't believe you didn't understand the first post.

What part did you not understand?

The part where squeeg liked something?

The part where one should like their own work?

The part where it would be weird if squeeg didn't like the thing he liked?

The part where stitching those three things together into a conclusion is left as an exercise for the reader?
Ah, I see. You mean that Squeegee created the narrative he said he liked.

That was fairly opaque to me. Perhaps I'm slow. But obviously, Squeegee's narrative was referring to Tanabear's post about historic tyrannies and one fictional barbarian. It didn't come out of nowhere. If you think his summary was inapt, perhaps you should've said why.

You could write clearly and convey your objections explicitly, you know, rather than insisting we go back and try to suss your meaning.

ETA: And no, the meme was not an explanation in any sense I can see. But, you know, I could be slow again.
phiwum is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th August 2019, 06:15 PM   #448
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: The Antimemetics Division
Posts: 69,914
Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
Ah, I see. You mean that Squeegee created the narrative he said he liked.

That was fairly opaque to me. Perhaps I'm slow. But obviously, Squeegee's narrative was referring to Tanabear's post about historic tyrannies and one fictional barbarian. It didn't come out of nowhere. If you think his summary was inapt, perhaps you should've said why.

You could write clearly and convey your objections explicitly, you know, rather than insisting we go back and try to suss your meaning.
I do that quite a bit, too. I get about the same results either way, though, so I'm not committed to the practice. Sometimes I'm in the mood for something a little longer and clearer. Sometimes I'm in the mood for something more... Laconic. Since the membership here doesn't really offer me any real benefit to choosing one over the other, I don't see why I shouldn't just follow my mood.
Quote:
ETA: And no, the meme was not an explanation in any sense I can see. But, you know, I could be slow again.
I mean, it did take you two tries to figure out what I meant. I had to repeat it for you, but you could have gotten the same effect by re reading the post, which turned out to be clear enough when you looked at it again.

Anyway, I'm feeling generous, so here's your closure: I deployed the meme to signal my disdain for your pose of not understanding my meaning.

I hope this helps.

Have a nice day!
__________________
There is no Antimemetics Division.
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th August 2019, 06:18 PM   #449
phiwum
Penultimate Amazing
 
phiwum's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 13,384
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I do that quite a bit, too. I get about the same results either way, though, so I'm not committed to the practice. Sometimes I'm in the mood for something a little longer and clearer. Sometimes I'm in the mood for something more... Laconic. Since the membership here doesn't really offer me any real benefit to choosing one over the other, I don't see why I shouldn't just follow my mood.


I mean, it did take you two tries to figure out what I meant. I had to repeat it for you, but you could have gotten the same effect by re reading the post, which turned out to be clear enough when you looked at it again.

Anyway, I'm feeling generous, so here's your closure: I deployed the meme to signal my disdain for your pose of not understanding my meaning.

I hope this helps.

Have a nice day!
Right. I was posing. Because, ha ha, it got your goat. Ha ha.

You are an odd duck.
phiwum is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th August 2019, 03:03 AM   #450
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 53,184
Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
It's making ponderingturtle's shtik harder to distinguish from what they proclaim.
Those are real quotes.

https://www.ranker.com/list/the-8-mo...ts/molly-mahan
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th August 2019, 03:05 AM   #451
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 53,184
Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Trump will probably tweet that it's fake news and King's town hall was packed to capacity.
Why? King is getting negative publicity and not going to get his supporters worked up in a useful fashion.
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th August 2019, 03:16 AM   #452
jimbob
Uncritical "thinker"
Moderator
 
jimbob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 31,644
Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Why? King is getting negative publicity and not going to get his supporters worked up in a useful fashion.
Indeed, that's what I was meaning.

You really have to work hard to come up with an outrageous interpretation of fairly mainstream Republican statements.
__________________
OECD healthcare spending
Public/Compulsory Expenditure on healthcare
https://data.oecd.org/chart/60Tt

Every year since 1990 the US Public healthcare spending has been greater than the UK as a proportion of GDP. More US Tax goes to healthcare than the UK
jimbob is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th August 2019, 05:58 PM   #453
tanabear
Critical Thinker
 
tanabear's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: The Lion's Den
Posts: 449
Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
One of resident "Conservatives" now celebrates rape.
Just incredible.
Needless to say, all his "real history" is just Macho B.S.
BTW that quote was swiped by the screen writers of "Conan The Barbarian" from a statement supposedly made by Genghis KHan, though most historians consider it mythical.
In fact, I am beginning to wonder if we don't have a Troll at work here.
I am obviously not defending rape or incest. I was merely commenting on the historical veracity and accuracy of Steve King's statement. He is more right than he knows. There is a quandary today when a public figure makes a true statement but it offends the sensibilities of the Left. Whether or not the statement is true doesn't matter. Is the Left offended? That is what matters.

Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Needless to say, all his "real history" is just Macho B.S.
p.s. Go back to the great Eurasian Steppe during the Bronze age or the Great Plains after the arrival of the horse. They knew what was best in life and it certainly wasn't being a farmer.
__________________
pomeroo: "Mark, where did this guy get the idea that you talked about holding aluminum in your hand?"

Undesired Walrus: "Why, Ron, Mark mentioned this on your very own show!"
tanabear is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th August 2019, 06:05 PM   #454
phiwum
Penultimate Amazing
 
phiwum's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 13,384
Originally Posted by tanabear View Post
I am obviously not defending rape or incest. I was merely commenting on the historical veracity and accuracy of Steve King's statement. He is more right than he knows. There is a quandary today when a public figure makes a true statement but it offends the sensibilities of the Left. Whether or not the statement is true doesn't matter. Is the Left offended? That is what matters.



p.s. Go back to the great Eurasian Steppe during the Bronze age or the Great Plains after the arrival of the horse. They knew what was best in life and it certainly wasn't being a farmer.
You know, for a long time, I just thought it was odd when I read your posts and thought, "This guy is just like Conan!" I guess I was catching the vibe somehow. It just comes out in your writing.
phiwum is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th August 2019, 06:20 PM   #455
Arcade22
Philosopher
 
Arcade22's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sweden
Posts: 7,706
Originally Posted by tanabear View Post
p.s. Go back to the great Eurasian Steppe during the Bronze age or the Great Plains after the arrival of the horse. They knew what was best in life and it certainly wasn't being a farmer.
I guess we should be grateful for our ancestors, who worked the land that has served as the solid foundation for modern developed countries to emerge from. Meanwhile, in Mongolia, Conan's descendants live in tents without access to basic sanitation and squalid conditions.
__________________
We would be a lot safer if the Government would take its money out of science and put it into astrology and the reading of palms. Only in superstition is there hope. - Kurt Vonnegut Jr

And no, Cuba is not a brutal and corrupt dictatorship, and it's definitely less so than Sweden. - dann
Arcade22 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th August 2019, 06:51 PM   #456
phiwum
Penultimate Amazing
 
phiwum's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 13,384
Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
I guess we should be grateful for our ancestors, who worked the land that has served as the solid foundation for modern developed countries to emerge from. Meanwhile, in Mongolia, Conan's descendants live in tents without access to basic sanitation and squalid conditions.
Uh, I think (most of?) Conan's descendants live in Cimmeria. According to some nerds on the internet, Cimmeria likely stands in for Ireland or Wales.

I can't tell you anything about the state of sanitation in Ireland or Wales. For what it's worth, Inner Mongolia wasn't squalid, but I don't know about Mongolia proper.
phiwum is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th August 2019, 07:32 PM   #457
Stacyhs
Penultimate Amazing
 
Stacyhs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: United States
Posts: 32,926
Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Why? King is getting negative publicity and not going to get his supporters worked up in a useful fashion.
Does Trump need a reason to lie?
Stacyhs is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th August 2019, 09:54 PM   #458
ArchSas
Critical Thinker
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 274
Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
Uh, I think (most of?) Conan's descendants live in Cimmeria. According to some nerds on the internet, Cimmeria likely stands in for Ireland or Wales.

I can't tell you anything about the state of sanitation in Ireland or Wales. For what it's worth, Inner Mongolia wasn't squalid, but I don't know about Mongolia proper.
Well, Howard intended Conan's people to be proto-Celts. But the quote tanabear is so fond of isn't anywhere in Howard's writing, it's (probably erroneously) attributed to Genghis Khan. It was included in the film Conan the Barbarian, but as a quote slave masters taught to Conan as a parlor trick. As a way to have a joke at the expense of someone they deemed less than human because he was a slave. It clearly isn't meant to be taken literally in the context of that film (unless you have no idea how themes work), and isn't really the point of Howard's representation of the character, either; Howard thought civilization was a corrupting influence on humanity, but his Conan always got by through wit and instinct gained trough experience, and with a goal in mind that he worked to achieve intelligently - he didn't value pillaging and rape for the sake of it, he always had clear motivations. Howard's valuing of "barbarism" was mostly based around wanting to return humankind to what he saw as it's natural and right state of existence (where people could exist and do whatever they want, without a veneer of civility to mask their true intentions), not necessarily a "might is right" worldview.

Either way, it's another example of tanabear completely misunderstanding something he uses as proof of his claims.

Last edited by ArchSas; 20th August 2019 at 10:20 PM.
ArchSas is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st August 2019, 03:33 AM   #459
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 53,184
Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Does Trump need a reason to lie?
Yes, or rather he needs a reason to speak and lying is then inevitable. Other than the fake news media there is no on to attack here and nothing to gain and not a way to steal the spotlight so why get up off the couch?
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st August 2019, 05:20 AM   #460
phiwum
Penultimate Amazing
 
phiwum's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 13,384
Originally Posted by ArchSas View Post
Well, Howard intended Conan's people to be proto-Celts. But the quote tanabear is so fond of isn't anywhere in Howard's writing, it's (probably erroneously) attributed to Genghis Khan. It was included in the film Conan the Barbarian, but as a quote slave masters taught to Conan as a parlor trick. As a way to have a joke at the expense of someone they deemed less than human because he was a slave. It clearly isn't meant to be taken literally in the context of that film (unless you have no idea how themes work), and isn't really the point of Howard's representation of the character, either; Howard thought civilization was a corrupting influence on humanity, but his Conan always got by through wit and instinct gained trough experience, and with a goal in mind that he worked to achieve intelligently - he didn't value pillaging and rape for the sake of it, he always had clear motivations. Howard's valuing of "barbarism" was mostly based around wanting to return humankind to what he saw as it's natural and right state of existence (where people could exist and do whatever they want, without a veneer of civility to mask their true intentions), not necessarily a "might is right" worldview.

Either way, it's another example of tanabear completely misunderstanding something he uses as proof of his claims.
Thanks for the schooling on Howard's work. Out of curiosity, and pardon the derail of an otherwise important discussion on the superiority of barbarians over farmers, is the comic book character more faithful to Howard's character?
phiwum is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st August 2019, 05:47 AM   #461
varwoche
Penultimate Amazing
 
varwoche's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Puget Sound
Posts: 17,528
Originally Posted by tanabear View Post
I am obviously not defending rape or incest. I was merely commenting on the historical veracity and accuracy of Steve King's statement. He is more right than he knows. There is a quandary today when a public figure makes a true statement but it offends the sensibilities of the Left. Whether or not the statement is true doesn't matter. Is the Left offended? That is what matters.
To the extent the history is accurate, it's besides the point. This barbaric history is not a sensible justification, at least so far as the sane (and vaguely sane) are concerned.


Quote:
p.s. Go back to the great Eurasian Steppe during the Bronze age or the Great Plains after the arrival of the horse. They knew what was best in life and it certainly wasn't being a farmer.
Let's hear it for rape and pillage!

Back to the OP ... Yes, there are people who care to defend Steve King.
__________________
To survive election season on a skeptics forum, one must understand Hymie-the-Robot.
varwoche is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st August 2019, 05:58 AM   #462
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 46,649
Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
Back to the OP ... Yes, there are people who care to defend Steve King.
We almost need a new term though.

At a certain point even words/concepts like "apologetics" doesn't apply to the level of "I'm not gonna defend Steve King... I'm just saying.."

I propose "Defendogetics."
__________________
"If everyone in the room says water is wet and I say it's dry that makes me smart because at least I'm thinking for myself!" - The Proudly Wrong.
JoeMorgue is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st August 2019, 03:39 PM   #463
dudalb
Penultimate Amazing
 
dudalb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 60,375
Originally Posted by tanabear View Post
I am obviously not defending rape or incest. I was merely commenting on the historical veracity and accuracy of Steve King's statement. He is more right than he knows. There is a quandary today when a public figure makes a true statement but it offends the sensibilities of the Left. Whether or not the statement is true doesn't matter. Is the Left offended? That is what matters.



p.s. Go back to the great Eurasian Steppe during the Bronze age or the Great Plains after the arrival of the horse. They knew what was best in life and it certainly wasn't being a farmer.
But the farmers always win in the end. Nomadic hunter gatherers always end up getting absorbed by communites based on Agriculture or getting wiped out entirely. I give you the Mongols in China as an example of the first...Kubla Khan was more Chinese then the Chinese..and the Sioux Indians as an example of the second.
But you are just indulging in Macho fantasies from the safety of a computer, I doubt you can ever ride a horse, frankly.
__________________
Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty.

Robert Heinlein.
dudalb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st August 2019, 03:43 PM   #464
dudalb
Penultimate Amazing
 
dudalb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 60,375
Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
Thanks for the schooling on Howard's work. Out of curiosity, and pardon the derail of an otherwise important discussion on the superiority of barbarians over farmers, is the comic book character more faithful to Howard's character?
That depends on who was writing the comic book at the time.
Some were very faithful to Howard's writing;the original run of Conan in Marvel comics back in the 70's altenated between original stories and straight up adaptations of specific Howard stories; some of the later runs got pretty far from Howard's ideas.
__________________
Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty.

Robert Heinlein.
dudalb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd August 2019, 06:54 AM   #465
bruto
Penultimate Amazing
 
bruto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Way way north of Diddy Wah Diddy
Posts: 36,113
Originally Posted by tanabear View Post
Thus spoke Steve King: What if we went back through all the family trees and just pulled out anyone who was a product of rape or incest? Would there be any population of the world left if we did that? Considering all the wars and all the rapes and pillages that happened throughout all these different nations, I know that I can't say that I was not a part of a product of that.

He's not wrong.

Conan the Barbarian(Robert E. Howard) is a better guide to understanding real history than all the fake history you learn in school and college today.

What's best In life?
To Crush your enemies,
to see them driven before you,
and to hear the lamentations of their women!

The Aryans, the Huns, the Mongols, the Scythians, the Turks, the Comanches all practiced what is best in life on a grand scale.

Even in the legendary history of Rome, one of the founding stories is the Rape of the Sabine women.

Regarding incest or consanguineous marriages, it still practiced across much of the world from North Africa to India. This is why "nation-building" is oftentimes so difficult in these countries. A much vilified person on these forums, Steve Sailer, even wrote about this in the run-up to the Iraq War in an article entitled, Cousin Marriage Conundrum. This article was published by Steve Pinker in The Best Science and Nature writing of 2004.

"In Iraq, as in much of the region, nearly half of all married couples are first or second cousins. A 1986 study of 4,500 married hospital patients and staff in Baghdad found that 46 percent were wed to a first or second cousin, while a smaller 1989 survey found 53 percent were 'consanguineously' married."

So kudos to Steve King for bringing back real history.
And if you're a Christian, the story that underlies your belief begins with military occupation, oppression and crucifixion. Why stop with incest and rape? We're the products of a history of conquest, murder, slavery and genocide, too.

Some of us, of course, have that odd idea that history need not be repeated. Silly liberal fantasy.
__________________
Like many humorless and indignant people, he is hard on everybody but himself, and does not perceive it when he fails his own ideal (Molière)

A pedant is a man who studies a vacuum through instruments that allow him to draw cross-sections of the details (John Ciardi)
bruto is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd August 2019, 07:50 AM   #466
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 46,649
BTW it's been a while since it's been the core issue surrounding this dickcheese but is the GOP's standard line of apologetics on Steve King still some variation on they just can't kick him out of the party because... I have no idea, I guess apparently the largest and oldest political party in America has less control over their IP then a mid-rate Youtube channel?
__________________
"If everyone in the room says water is wet and I say it's dry that makes me smart because at least I'm thinking for myself!" - The Proudly Wrong.
JoeMorgue is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd August 2019, 08:28 AM   #467
phiwum
Penultimate Amazing
 
phiwum's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 13,384
I don't know that the discussion of King's comments are really addressing his point. He wasn't saying that rape is an okay way to procreate.

Here's how I regard his comments. I haven't looked at them in detail, so I could be off here.

Most or all of us are ultimately the product of rape somewhere in our lineage. If abortion had been an option for the rape victim, most or all of us would therefore not exist. At least one of our ancestors would have been aborted.

On the one hand, I think that a rape exception is inconsistent with the most common pro-life arguments. Most politicians accept that inconsistency due to political expediency. Most pro-life voters want that exception even though it cannot be squared with the notion that abortion is wrong because a fetus has a right to life.

On the other hand, King's argument is just ****. Yes, perhaps if abortion in rape cases were an option in the distant past, I wouldn't be alive today. So what? Others would be alive. Surely, rape pregnancies always accounted for a small percentage of births, so the human race would go on, but without a person of my particular genetic makeup[1]. My birth is the result of a long string of events and had any one of those events gone differently, I wouldn't be here, but so the heck what? Am I supposed to think that I was lucky I dodged the bullet and I should make sure abortion is illegal so that others can do the same?

I'm not offended by his claim that most of us are ultimately the product of rape. I don't know if it's true, but it's not obviously implausible to me. It's just that this claim is totally irrelevant to whether or not there ought to be a rape exception. It is the product of an addled mind.

[1] Which would make the world a bleak and cold place, a land without laughter, of course.
phiwum is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd August 2019, 08:36 AM   #468
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: The Antimemetics Division
Posts: 69,914
Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
I don't know that the discussion of King's comments are really addressing his point. He wasn't saying that rape is an okay way to procreate.

Here's how I regard his comments. I haven't looked at them in detail, so I could be off here.

Most or all of us are ultimately the product of rape somewhere in our lineage. If abortion had been an option for the rape victim, most or all of us would therefore not exist. At least one of our ancestors would have been aborted.

On the one hand, I think that a rape exception is inconsistent with the most common pro-life arguments. Most politicians accept that inconsistency due to political expediency. Most pro-life voters want that exception even though it cannot be squared with the notion that abortion is wrong because a fetus has a right to life.
This is pretty much my take on it, also.

I see King's statements as him trying to come up with some way to resolve the conundrum. I don't think it has any really good resolution, and I'm not surprised that his attempt is fumbling and unsuccessful.

Like you and Meadmaker, I don't really think King needs defending on this one. His detractors are mostly just making stuff up (good old days of rape, etc.). Defending King isn't really going to put a stop to that, so why bother?
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd August 2019, 10:25 AM   #469
Dr. Keith
Not a doctor.
 
Dr. Keith's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Texas
Posts: 25,863
Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
I'm not offended by his claim that most of us are ultimately the product of rape. I don't know if it's true, but it's not obviously implausible to me. It's just that this claim is totally irrelevant to whether or not there ought to be a rape exception. It is the product of an addled mind.
I'm offended that others don't see it as the product of an addled mind.

Also, I thought it was GOP policy that you couldn't get pregnant from rape, the body just shuts that down. Maybe I need to revisit my GOP biology texts on that.
__________________
Suffering is not a punishment not a fruit of sin, it is a gift of God.
He allows us to share in His suffering and to make up for the sins of the world. -Mother Teresa

If I had a pet panda I would name it Snowflake.
Dr. Keith is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd August 2019, 11:51 AM   #470
Meadmaker
Guest
 
Meadmaker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 29,033
Originally Posted by tanabear View Post
I am obviously not defending rape or incest. I was merely commenting on the historical veracity and accuracy of Steve King's statement. He is more right than he knows. There is a quandary today when a public figure makes a true statement but it offends the sensibilities of the Left. Whether or not the statement is true doesn't matter. Is the Left offended? That is what matters.



p.s. Go back to the great Eurasian Steppe during the Bronze age or the Great Plains after the arrival of the horse. They knew what was best in life and it certainly wasn't being a farmer.
I'm going to object to this, because Steve King's statement isn't true in any meaningful sense of the word. He hasn't spoken the truth about a subject. He has simply made a statement that is true in a very limited sense, but is utterly meaningless.

His statement wasn't absolutely clear, but I took it it mean something like "every one of us has at least one ancestor that was the product of rape or incest". That isn't verifiable, but it seems fairly likely, so it is in some sense true. However, he didn't even actually say that. The quote was more like "If you took out everyone from our family tree that was the result of rape or incest, there would be no one left". Now, is that a true statement?

Well, it is, sort of, but it suggests that somehow the human race wouldn't exist if it weren't for rape and incest. Suppose we could go back in time and at every point in history where a rape was about to occur that resulted in impregnation, we intervened and somehow prevented impregnation. When we returned to the present day, would there be no humans? Of course not. It is true that the specific humans (i.e. us) wouldn't be here, but there would still be humans. It would not be "no one left". It would be different people than the ones who are here now.

As someone noted, the same would be true if you didn't fight World War I. Not one person who is alive today would be alive if we had stopped the assassination of Archduke Ferdinand*, and yet there would still be people.

So what was the meaning behind King's statement? Was there anything about it that was true in any meaningful sense? Could we take some message from his statement and, offended "sensibilities" aside, can we say that he said anything worth saying?

I think not. I think what he was getting at, peeling back one more layer of that onion, was that the children of rape or incest can make meaningful contributions to the world, and so we shouldn't abort them. Of course, it is true that they can make meaningful contributions to the world, and no one on left or right would deny that. That's not really important. I'm not going to get into justifying a pro or an anti abortion stance right now, but the point is that the potential but unknowable future isn't really a good justification for setting policy today, and the fact that there were ancestors in our past with certain characteristics matters even less when we consider whether abortion ought to be legal today.

*Ferdinand might be a bit too recent. After all, a few people are still alive who were already born in 1914. If we go back another 100 years so, though, we're in the clear. Despite various time travelling works of fiction, it would take very little change to have quite a drastic effect on the future. Consider how different the world would be if one sperm cell got to an egg instead of another, and how easy it is to affect that, and you'll realize that any change at all would ripple rapidly through the population.
Meadmaker is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd August 2019, 12:51 PM   #471
dudalb
Penultimate Amazing
 
dudalb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 60,375
Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
I'm going to object to this, because Steve King's statement isn't true in any meaningful sense of the word. He hasn't spoken the truth about a subject. He has simply made a statement that is true in a very limited sense, but is utterly meaningless.

His statement wasn't absolutely clear, but I took it it mean something like "every one of us has at least one ancestor that was the product of rape or incest". That isn't verifiable, but it seems fairly likely, so it is in some sense true. However, he didn't even actually say that. The quote was more like "If you took out everyone from our family tree that was the result of rape or incest, there would be no one left". Now, is that a true statement?

Well, it is, sort of, but it suggests that somehow the human race wouldn't exist if it weren't for rape and incest. Suppose we could go back in time and at every point in history where a rape was about to occur that resulted in impregnation, we intervened and somehow prevented impregnation. When we returned to the present day, would there be no humans? Of course not. It is true that the specific humans (i.e. us) wouldn't be here, but there would still be humans. It would not be "no one left". It would be different people than the ones who are here now.

As someone noted, the same would be true if you didn't fight World War I. Not one person who is alive today would be alive if we had stopped the assassination of Archduke Ferdinand*, and yet there would still be people.

So what was the meaning behind King's statement? Was there anything about it that was true in any meaningful sense? Could we take some message from his statement and, offended "sensibilities" aside, can we say that he said anything worth saying?

I think not. I think what he was getting at, peeling back one more layer of that onion, was that the children of rape or incest can make meaningful contributions to the world, and so we shouldn't abort them. Of course, it is true that they can make meaningful contributions to the world, and no one on left or right would deny that. That's not really important. I'm not going to get into justifying a pro or an anti abortion stance right now, but the point is that the potential but unknowable future isn't really a good justification for setting policy today, and the fact that there were ancestors in our past with certain characteristics matters even less when we consider whether abortion ought to be legal today.

*Ferdinand might be a bit too recent. After all, a few people are still alive who were already born in 1914. If we go back another 100 years so, though, we're in the clear. Despite various time travelling works of fiction, it would take very little change to have quite a drastic effect on the future. Consider how different the world would be if one sperm cell got to an egg instead of another, and how easy it is to affect that, and you'll realize that any change at all would ripple rapidly through the population.
Why are you spending so much time defending a bigoted turd like King?Enough fence sitting engaging in endless intellectual discussion of an issue;time to take a stand on King's bigotry.
__________________
Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty.

Robert Heinlein.
dudalb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd August 2019, 12:56 PM   #472
Dr. Keith
Not a doctor.
 
Dr. Keith's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Texas
Posts: 25,863
Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Why are you spending so much time defending a bigoted turd like King?Enough fence sitting engaging in endless intellectual discussion of an issue;time to take a stand on King's bigotry.
Did you quote the wrong post?

I don't see a defense of King in the post you quoted, quite the opposite, actually.
__________________
Suffering is not a punishment not a fruit of sin, it is a gift of God.
He allows us to share in His suffering and to make up for the sins of the world. -Mother Teresa

If I had a pet panda I would name it Snowflake.
Dr. Keith is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd August 2019, 12:57 PM   #473
jimbob
Uncritical "thinker"
Moderator
 
jimbob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 31,644
Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Why are you spending so much time defending a bigoted turd like King?Enough fence sitting engaging in endless intellectual discussion of an issue;time to take a stand on King's bigotry.
Yes, when people keep making bigoted statements, you don't need to keep giving them the benefit of the doubt, every time they say something bigoted.
__________________
OECD healthcare spending
Public/Compulsory Expenditure on healthcare
https://data.oecd.org/chart/60Tt

Every year since 1990 the US Public healthcare spending has been greater than the UK as a proportion of GDP. More US Tax goes to healthcare than the UK
jimbob is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd August 2019, 01:04 PM   #474
Meadmaker
Guest
 
Meadmaker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 29,033
Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
Did you quote the wrong post?

I don't see a defense of King in the post you quoted, quite the opposite, actually.
Thank you.
Meadmaker is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd August 2019, 01:32 PM   #475
Dr. Keith
Not a doctor.
 
Dr. Keith's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Texas
Posts: 25,863
Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Thank you.
If it makes you feel better, it made me re-read your post more carefully. So, there's that.

I almost highlighted all the negative things you said about King, but frankly I thought your work stood well enough on its own.
__________________
Suffering is not a punishment not a fruit of sin, it is a gift of God.
He allows us to share in His suffering and to make up for the sins of the world. -Mother Teresa

If I had a pet panda I would name it Snowflake.
Dr. Keith is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd August 2019, 03:56 PM   #476
phiwum
Penultimate Amazing
 
phiwum's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 13,384
Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Why are you spending so much time defending a bigoted turd like King?Enough fence sitting engaging in endless intellectual discussion of an issue;time to take a stand on King's bigotry.
Meadmaker's post was nothing like a defense of King.

There's no shame in saying a horrible bigot was probably right about one small claim but drawing stupid conclusions from it.
phiwum is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd August 2019, 08:57 PM   #477
tanabear
Critical Thinker
 
tanabear's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: The Lion's Den
Posts: 449
Originally Posted by ArchSas View Post
Well, Howard intended Conan's people to be proto-Celts. But the quote tanabear is so fond of isn't anywhere in Howard's writing, it's (probably erroneously) attributed to Genghis Khan. It was included in the film Conan the Barbarian, but as a quote slave masters taught to Conan as a parlor trick. As a way to have a joke at the expense of someone they deemed less than human because he was a slave. It clearly isn't meant to be taken literally in the context of that film (unless you have no idea how themes work), and isn't really the point of Howard's representation of the character, either; Howard thought civilization was a corrupting influence on humanity, but his Conan always got by through wit and instinct gained trough experience, and with a goal in mind that he worked to achieve intelligently - he didn't value pillaging and rape for the sake of it, he always had clear motivations. Howard's valuing of "barbarism" was mostly based around wanting to return humankind to what he saw as it's natural and right state of existence (where people could exist and do whatever they want, without a veneer of civility to mask their true intentions), not necessarily a "might is right" worldview.

Either way, it's another example of tanabear completely misunderstanding something he uses as proof of his claims.
That's right.

After Conan was freed from his captors he decided to forgive his enemies, not crush them, lay down his sword and shield and live life as an ascetic. He then devoted his life to the practice of transcendental meditation while living on a diet of raw cabbage and carrots in a small mountain hut. The movie ends with Conan discovering inner peace.

Or not....I think the movie actually ends by Conan crushing his enemies. At the end the narrator says: "Many wars and feuds did Conan fight. Honor and fear were heaped upon his name and, in time, he became a king by his own hand. And this story shall also be told."

So it sounds like Conan continued to pursue what is best in life.

Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
But the farmers always win in the end. Nomadic hunter gatherers always end up getting absorbed by communites based on Agriculture or getting wiped out entirely. I give you the Mongols in China as an example of the first...Kubla Khan was more Chinese then the Chinese..and the Sioux Indians as an example of the second.
Yes, in the long run farmers win out over the hunter-gatherers, not because they are better fighters but simply because there are more of them. But farming is not what is best in life.

Purification of world! Revolt of the damned! Destruction of the cities!
__________________
pomeroo: "Mark, where did this guy get the idea that you talked about holding aluminum in your hand?"

Undesired Walrus: "Why, Ron, Mark mentioned this on your very own show!"
tanabear is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 11:28 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.