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Tags anti-islam sentiments , Germany issues , germany politics , Nazi comparisons , Volker Kauder

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Old 21st April 2012, 04:35 PM   #1
Abdul Alhazred
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Lightbulb Does Islam belong in Germany?

Merkel ally says Islam not part of Germany (Reuters)

This guy said "Nein!"



...

This guy said "Ja, tatsächlich!"

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Old 21st April 2012, 04:37 PM   #2
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Fastest Godwin ever?
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Old 21st April 2012, 05:08 PM   #3
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One of my physicians told me he was born in Germany... 3 days from the date I was, in 1938... and was a Palestinian.
He has no regard for the Germany of that period.
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Old 21st April 2012, 05:48 PM   #4
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No system of false beliefs belongs anywhere, if you want to get technical about it. And the Germans are known as a technical people.
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Old 21st April 2012, 06:12 PM   #5
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Cool

Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Fastest Godwin ever?
Does that mean I win?
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Old 21st April 2012, 06:14 PM   #6
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Grundgesetz Art. 4 Absatz 1, 2
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Old 21st April 2012, 06:30 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by Abdul Alhazred View Post
Does that mean I win?
Yes, you win the title of OberGrosseReichsMufti. Tell all your friends!
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Old 21st April 2012, 06:38 PM   #8
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A conservative German politician thinks a Middle Eastern religion is not part of "German identity" and does not belong in Germany?

That's never led to anything bad before!
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Old 21st April 2012, 07:44 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by ANTPogo View Post
A conservative German politician thinks a Middle Eastern religion is not part of "German identity" and does not belong in Germany?

That's never led to anything bad before!
Godwin.

People are slow learners. The Muslims knew they were Germans when they moved in on them. Didn't care. Moved right on in anyhow. Perhaps the Muslims thought there was some sort of unspoken understanding between them and the Germans due to the whole Muslim Jew-hate thing.

Well, surprise. There is no unspoken understanding. Except the one that says Germans are still Germans, after all those centuries and all those wars, win, lose, or draw.
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Old 21st April 2012, 08:03 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by Toontown View Post
Godwin.

People are slow learners. The Muslims knew they were Germans when they moved in on them. Didn't care. Moved right on in anyhow. Perhaps the Muslims thought there was some sort of unspoken understanding between them and the Germans due to the whole Muslim Jew-hate thing.

Well, surprise. There is no unspoken understanding. Except the one that says Germans are still Germans, after all those centuries and all those wars, win, lose, or draw.
There was the so-called Grand Mufti of Palestine. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haj_Amin_al-Husseini

Still, it pains me to admit it, because over half my DNA is German, but it's true. As long as there is a Germany, anybody who doesn't drink beer and eat roasted pigs hocks had better always look in the rear-view mirror.
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Old 21st April 2012, 08:20 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by Toontown View Post
Godwin.

People are slow learners. The Muslims knew they were Germans when they moved in on them. Didn't care. Moved right on in anyhow.
When they moved in on them? Does this mean that Muslims are not supposed to be able to emigrate to Germany? To move in on someone suggests some kind of imposition or invasion. Is this how you see it?

Quote:
Perhaps the Muslims thought there was some sort of unspoken understanding between them and the Germans due to the whole Muslim Jew-hate thing.
Or perhaps this tells us more about your prejudices than those collectively held by Muslims and Germans.

Quote:
Well, surprise. There is no unspoken understanding. Except the one that says Germans are still Germans, after all those centuries and all those wars, win, lose, or draw.
And would you like to tell us a little of this essence of Germans qua Germans?
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Old 21st April 2012, 08:40 PM   #12
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Most of the Muslims in Germany are Turkish foreign labourers, or their descendents, who were invited to come to Germany and work in the 70s.
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Old 21st April 2012, 08:46 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
When they moved in on them? Does this mean that Muslims are not supposed to be able to emigrate to Germany? To move in on someone suggests some kind of imposition or invasion. Is this how you see it?

Or perhaps this tells us more about your prejudices than those collectively held by Muslims and Germans.

And would you like to tell us a little of this essence of Germans qua Germans?
Can the interrogation, Herr Inquisitor. I said what I said, it means what it means. You don't need to peruse it, sniff it, and gnaw at it all day.

Strawberry fields forever.
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Old 21st April 2012, 09:31 PM   #14
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Personally, I'd argue that religion of any kind doesn't "belong" in Germany, or anywhere else. However, religion exists, and the majority of the world's people believe in it in one form or another.

There are therefore, in my opinion, only two rational responses. First, outlaw all religion. This has been tried in China, Vietnam, the USSR, Cuba, etc....generally with terribly results (not only failing to eliminate religion, but causing terrible suffering in the attempt). So, while arguable a rational response, it is not terribly practical, and personally I'm opposed to it. Second, allow all of them. There's no room for saying "This religion 'belongs', but this one doesn't."
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Old 21st April 2012, 10:07 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by Abdul Alhazred View Post
Does that mean I win?
Don't get your hopes up.

Edited by jhunter1163:  Edited for Rule 0.
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Old 22nd April 2012, 02:30 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by Abdul Alhazred View Post
This guy said "Ja, tatsächlich!"

http://i42.tinypic.com/xgfyfc.jpg
You're aware that the Muslim SS unit al-Husseini helped raise was meant to stay and fight in Bosnia?

Originally Posted by ANTPogo View Post
A conservative German politician thinks a Middle Eastern religion is not part of "German identity" and does not belong in Germany?

That's never led to anything bad before!
You mean Himmler's attempts to establish a pagan cult?
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Old 22nd April 2012, 02:43 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by Toontown View Post
Godwin.
That Godwin is right there in the OP.

Originally Posted by Toontown View Post
People are slow learners. The Muslims knew they were Germans when they moved in on them. Didn't care. Moved right on in anyhow. Perhaps the Muslims thought there was some sort of unspoken understanding between them and the Germans due to the whole Muslim Jew-hate thing.

Well, surprise. There is no unspoken understanding. Except the one that says Germans are still Germans, after all those centuries and all those wars, win, lose, or draw.
Bollocks. Utter BS. All Western-European states have immigrant populations of comparable size, most of those immigrants being Muslims from North Africa and the Middle East (and Pakistan in the case of the UK). Sort this table and you'll see that France, Switzerland and the Netherlands - just to name three - have percentage-wise more Muslims than Germany.
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Old 22nd April 2012, 03:15 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by Abdul Alhazred View Post
Merkel ally says Islam not part of Germany (Reuters)

This guy said "Nein!"

This guy said "Ja, tatsächlich!"

What's your point? Is there a broad disagreement about whether Muslims are an accepted part of the society or not? ... Well, there isn't.
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Old 22nd April 2012, 03:18 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by Wolfman View Post
Personally, I'd argue that religion of any kind doesn't "belong" in Germany, or anywhere else. However, religion exists, and the majority of the world's people believe in it in one form or another.

There are therefore, in my opinion, only two rational responses. First, outlaw all religion. This has been tried in China, Vietnam, the USSR, Cuba, etc....generally with terribly results (not only failing to eliminate religion, but causing terrible suffering in the attempt). So, while arguable a rational response, it is not terribly practical, and personally I'm opposed to it. Second, allow all of them. There's no room for saying "This religion 'belongs', but this one doesn't."
This exactly.


I don't like the phrase "Islam belongs to Germany" ("der Islam gehört zu Deutschland" - the translation is good). I think it grew out of rejecting the negation: "Islam doesn't belong to Germany". The statement and its negation ought not be construed as a dichotomy - or if they are, it is a false one. "Zu etwas gehören" (to belong to something) is a normative statement, and obviously there is at least a third option: That there is no norm concerning the presence of Islam in Germany. Islam is a matter of fact in Germany: Millions living in Germany identify themselves as muslims, many of them with citizenship. No-one is going to mass-deport or re-educate them, so it is an obvious fact of life that Islam is in Germany. If it had so happened that there were only a handful of muslims in Germany, or none at all, would any polititian say "Islam belongs to Germany" and deduct from that norm that politics should enact programs to bring Islam to Germany? Of course not. Or what if, for whatever reason, all muslims were to emigrate or drop their faith - would any of the politicians who say that Islam belongs to Germany be very sad? Unlikely.

So why do they say this? I frankly don't know.
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Old 22nd April 2012, 04:20 AM   #20
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Its jsut a never case of the current hate group being singled out again I wander who it wil be in 40 years time.
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Old 22nd April 2012, 05:52 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
Bollocks. Utter BS. All Western-European states have immigrant populations of comparable size, most of those immigrants being Muslims from North Africa and the Middle East (and Pakistan in the case of the UK). Sort this table and you'll see that France, Switzerland and the Netherlands - just to name three - have percentage-wise more Muslims than Germany.
Non-sequitur.

I said nothing and meant nothing about the relative sizes of the Muslim populations of any countries or group of countries. Your attempt to identify the exact nature of my particultar thought crime du jour has failed.
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Old 22nd April 2012, 06:18 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
I don't like the phrase "Islam belongs to Germany" ("der Islam gehört zu Deutschland" - the translation is good). I think it grew out of rejecting the negation: "Islam doesn't belong to Germany".

Well, you should mention that in this case Kauder negates the positive statement made by former president Wulff (also a Merkel ally). Kauder is an attack dog of the Christian Democrats and his statement, I think, serves the purpose of binding the Islamophobe crowd, which unlike in most European countries still not has a relevant party in Germany, to the CDU.

"Rechts von mir ist nur die Wand".
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Old 22nd April 2012, 06:19 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by Toontown View Post
Non-sequitur.

I said nothing and meant nothing about the relative sizes of the Muslim populations of any countries or group of countries. Your attempt to identify the exact nature of my particultar thought crime du jour has failed.
what did you mean then? i didnt udnderstand your post
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Old 22nd April 2012, 07:49 AM   #24
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Lightbulb

Originally Posted by ddt View Post
You're aware that the Muslim SS unit al-Husseini helped raise was meant to stay and fight in Bosnia?
Sure.

Which was going to part of Greater Germany.
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Old 22nd April 2012, 08:25 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Fastest Godwin ever?
I don't think that word means what you think it means.
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Old 22nd April 2012, 08:39 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by crimresearch View Post
I don't think that word means what you think it means.
Even if you're going strictly by the original wording of Godwin's Law, angrysoba's post is entirely correct.
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Old 22nd April 2012, 08:47 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by Abdul Alhazred View Post
Sure.

Which was going to part of Greater Germany.
What, Bosnia?

No it wasn't.
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Old 22nd April 2012, 10:57 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by Ryokan View Post
Most of the Muslims in Germany are Turkish foreign labourers, or their descendents, who were invited to come to Germany and work in the 70s.
.
And their kids are anchor babies, just like here.
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Old 22nd April 2012, 12:00 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by I Ratant View Post
.
And their kids are anchor babies, just like here.
Until 2000, German nationality law was based exclusively on ius sanguinis, so that ploy wouldn't work. Even now, German nationality is not automatic for children born on German soil.
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Old 22nd April 2012, 12:03 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by Dcdrac View Post
Its jsut a never case of the current hate group being singled out again I wander who it wil be in 40 years time.
You're Moses?
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Old 22nd April 2012, 12:06 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by Toontown View Post
Non-sequitur.

I said nothing and meant nothing about the relative sizes of the Muslim populations of any countries or group of countries. Your attempt to identify the exact nature of my particultar thought crime du jour has failed.
So what did you mean? I awfully looked like what others read into it. And why don't you just explain what you meant so we can move on with the discussion instead of keep hammering on this point.
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Old 22nd April 2012, 01:51 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by ANTPogo View Post
Even if you're going strictly by the original wording of Godwin's Law, angrysoba's post is entirely correct.
I go by The longer an internet discussion continues, the greater the chances that some poster will make a comparison to Nazis.

The first post did not make the discussion grow longer, and no poster's coments were compared to Nazis in the OP.
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Old 22nd April 2012, 02:19 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by crimresearch View Post
The first post did not make the discussion grow longer
It's not that a mention of Nazis makes the thread longer, it's that a longer a thread goes on, the more likely it is that someone will mention Nazis.

By mentioning Nazis in the first post (especially regarding a news story that has nothing to do with the Nazis), the OP basically crossed the finish line before the starting gun even went off.

Quote:
and no poster's coments were compared to Nazis in the OP.
Your formulation didn't say that a poster's comments will be compared to Nazis. It said that some poster will make a comparison to Nazis. Which is exactly what the OP did.

Ergo, this thread was Godwinned in its very first post.
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Old 22nd April 2012, 02:49 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by ANTPogo View Post
It's not that a mention of Nazis makes the thread longer, it's that a longer a thread goes on, the more likely it is that someone will mention Nazis.

By mentioning Nazis in the first post (especially regarding a news story that has nothing to do with the Nazis), the OP basically crossed the finish line before the starting gun even went off.



Your formulation didn't say that a poster's comments will be compared to Nazis. It said that some poster will make a comparison to Nazis. Which is exactly what the OP did.

Ergo, this thread was Godwinned in its very first post.
There was no comparison to Nazi's at all. A photo isn't a comparison, it is documentation.
And at 1 post, a thread isn't longer than anything except zero.

So of the 2 criteria that Godwin himself set, neither is present. Merely referring to the history of that period isn't Godwinning.

I'm missing your point and reluctant to jump to conclusions... is the OP comparing 'Merkel's ally' to Nazis? Or someone else?
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Old 22nd April 2012, 03:17 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by crimresearch View Post
There was no comparison to Nazi's at all. A photo isn't a comparison, it is documentation.
Only if you refuse to look at the context. The OP didn't post it as a non-sequitur, after all.

Quote:
And at 1 post, a thread isn't longer than anything except zero.
No, because the conditions Mike Godwin set on length was an upper bound, not a lower bound. He was making a faux statistical statement about how Nazis tend to get mentioned in internet discussions, to make the point that the overuse of invalid Nazi comparisons robs the valid comparisons of their impact.

And saying how much the Nazis liked Islam in a thread about how a modern German politician thinks Islam has no place in modern Germany is an invalid comparison.

Quote:
I'm missing your point and reluctant to jump to conclusions... is the OP comparing 'Merkel's ally' to Nazis? Or someone else?
He's comparing Islam to Naziism. Basically, he's trying to say that Germans might not think Islam is a part of German identity these days, but back when they were Nazis they wholeheartedly embraced Islam. Therefore, Merkel's ally is right to say Islam does not belong in Germany, because the Nazis liked Islam, and modern Germany has rejected everything associated with the Nazis.

EDIT: It's basically just a reductio ad Hitlerum. "So what if he doesn't like Islam. You know who did like Islam? Hitler."
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Old 22nd April 2012, 03:31 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by ANTPogo View Post
Only if you refuse to look at the context. The OP didn't post it as a non-sequitur, after all.



No, because the conditions Mike Godwin set on length was an upper bound, not a lower bound. He was making a faux statistical statement about how Nazis tend to get mentioned in internet discussions, to make the point that the overuse of invalid Nazi comparisons robs the valid comparisons of their impact.

And saying how much the Nazis liked Islam in a thread about how a modern German politician thinks Islam has no place in modern Germany is an invalid comparison.



He's comparing Islam to Naziism. Basically, he's trying to say that Germans might not think Islam is a part of German identity these days, but back when they were Nazis they wholeheartedly embraced Islam. Therefore, Merkel's ally is right to say Islam does not belong in Germany, because the Nazis liked Islam, and modern Germany has rejected everything associated with the Nazis.

EDIT: It's basically just a reductio ad Hitlerum. "So what if he doesn't like Islam. You know who did like Islam? Hitler."
OK, and thanks for the further explanation... I can see that, although it wasn't what I took away from the OP. For me, Nazis, and the Grand Mufti's Islam are spokes on the same wheel.

But having taken your point, I'll agree with your agreement with angry soba.
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Old 22nd April 2012, 04:35 PM   #37
Abdul Alhazred
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The only person I "compared" to a Nazi was wearing the uniform.
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Old 22nd April 2012, 05:47 PM   #38
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Ooops!
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Old 23rd April 2012, 01:14 AM   #39
ddt
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Originally Posted by Abdul Alhazred View Post
The only person I "compared" to a Nazi was wearing the uniform.


You compared Volker Kauder, head of the CDU/CSU's parliamentary party, with Heinrich Himmler, Reichsführer SS. Himmler is the only one in the pictures in your OP wearing a uniform.
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Old 23rd April 2012, 06:35 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by epepke View Post

,,,

Germany does have a genocidal, xenophobic, and nationally/culturally superior nature. This has been going along for a hell of a long time. Whether this is eternal or not remains to be seen, but it is perverse to assert that there is any evidence that this will end any time soon.

,,,

Now, the Germans are by no means the only genocidal culture. Probably every culture is genocidal; it is certainly difficult to think of one that is not.

,,,
Here is the offending statement:

"Islam is not part of our tradition and identity in Germany and so does not belong in Germany," Volker Kauder, head of Chancellor Angela Merkel's conservatives in parliament, told the Passauer Neue Presse.

But Muslims do belong in Germany. As state citizens, of course, they enjoy their full rights," he added."

I see nothing wrong with the statement. It is a simple statement of fact. "Islam" is not, in fact, a part of German culture and tradition. And there is nothing wrong with a country, culture, religion, or other group defining itself in terms of what it is and is not. OTC, it is plain common sense to include what is deemed good and exclude what is deemed inimical, if any group is to exist as such at all.

I certainly do not see Muslims, for example, being reticent to define themselves quite exclusively in terms of what they are and are not.

Would it be a thought crime if, for example, a UK politician were to state that fascism is not a part of British culture and tradition?

What about anarchy? Would it be a thought crime for a country to exclude anarchy from it's culture and tradition?

So why pick on the Germans? Define the thought crime which has been committed.
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Last edited by Toontown; 23rd April 2012 at 07:01 AM.
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