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Tags anti-islam sentiments , Germany issues , germany politics , Nazi comparisons , Volker Kauder

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Old 8th May 2012, 05:32 PM   #201
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
By that definition I think the only ideas that need to prevail are respect for human rights, dignity, and tolerance for other people.
Those are some of the hallmarks of an advanced civilization.

However, it's going to take more than that to prosper in the next couple of centuries. It's going to take a great deal of knowledge and tecnology. Any religion (or political theory) that doesn't get with the program is headed for the ash heap, because most people are going to choose survival and prosperity over demonstrably false ideologies. It will be difficult to maintain belief in false ideologies if the world's education systems do what they must do.

Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
As long as we embrace those ideas, it doesn't matter much if Mormonism gains ground over Baptists, or if Islam grows in comparison to Christianity.
The embrace of those ideas will be a luxury humanity will be unable to maintain unless it embraces the education, knowledge, and technology to deal with the difficulties facing it over the next two critical centuries.

Therefore, humanity will probably meander in that direction. And that will probably be the death knell of the religions. And they know it.

If that day comes, an old argument about whether a minority religion should be assimilated into a country's identity will seem quaint and silly. On that day, people will have rights and dignity, but beliefs will have no rights at all. Beliefs will stand or fall on merit.
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Old 8th May 2012, 05:52 PM   #202
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I really don't understand the problem with what this German politician said. If the Prime Minister of Japan said that Islam isn't a part of Japanese identity would there be outrage?

It is interesting how only the West is expected to embrace everything and anything on equal footing. Such demands are never made of other cultures.
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Old 8th May 2012, 06:19 PM   #203
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Originally Posted by Virus View Post
I really don't understand the problem with what this German politician said.
Of course you don't.

Quote:
If the Prime Minister of Japan said that Islam isn't a part of Japanese identity would there be outrage?

It is interesting how only the West is expected to embrace everything and anything on equal footing. Such demands are never made of other cultures.
Japan doesn't have a large number of Muslim immigrants, like Germany does. And politicians in Japan have indeed come under fire both at home and in the West for their comments about the large(ish) immigrant population that Japan does have - Koreans.

So much for your attempt at a tu quoque.

EDIT: And is this an example of your "superior Western culture", Virus? "We shouldn't be expected to live up to our own principles of religious freedom and liberty because other people don't!"

As John Stewart said, "If you don't stick to your values when they're being tested, they're not values: they're hobbies."
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Old 8th May 2012, 06:49 PM   #204
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ANTPogo, we have far more important principles to live up to besides trying not to give verbal offense to religious people. Freedom of speech, for example, is far more important than not giving verbal offense by it's practice.

Religious people are very easily offended. Too easily offended. However, feeling verbally offended does not prevent them from freely practicing their religion.

If they have a material grievance, then tell us about it. But if they just don't like something someone said, well...that's tough for them. Things are tough all over.
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Old 8th May 2012, 06:55 PM   #205
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Originally Posted by Virus View Post
I really don't understand the problem with what this German politician said. If the Prime Minister of Japan said that Islam isn't a part of Japanese identity would there be outrage?
Is there outrage? Or is this just a little thread rage, indulged in by a few internet ideologues?

If there is significant outrage over a few little words followed closely by a sop, then the monkey planet is sicker than I thought.
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Old 8th May 2012, 06:59 PM   #206
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Originally Posted by Toontown View Post
ANTPogo, we have far more important principles to live up to besides trying not to give verbal offense to religious people. Freedom of speech, for example, is far more important than not giving verbal offense by it's practice.

Religious people are very easily offended. Too easily offended. However, feeling verbally offended does not prevent them from freely practicing their religion.

If they have a material greivance, then tell us about it. But if they just don't like something someone said, well...that's tough for them. Things are tough all over.
Even if all that is true, and it is certainly not all false, what does it have to do with whether a particular religious community has a place in a particular country? Moreover, "something someone said" might be philosophical disagreement, which is perfectly valid, or it might be incitement of a majority to persecute a minority, and people are most certainly entitled to complain when they are on the receiving end of that.
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Old 8th May 2012, 09:52 PM   #207
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Originally Posted by Toontown View Post
And what brought up the subject of Islam in general?

And to whom was Kauder referring when he said Muslims who are German citizens do belong, and have their rights?
The cause is actually rather irrelevant as we are discussing the actual statements of Kauder, not just what brought him to vent his mental digestion tract.
You are not familiar with the "distinction without difference", are you? It's the usual kauderwelsch disclaimer to soften the next inane statement, namely Islam does not belong to Germany, which for some rather odd reason actually just happens to concern those under the label German Muslims, without which that label does not even make sense.

Originally Posted by Toontown View Post
Rejecting obviously bogus, false belief systems is not exclusionary politics. It's just smart. Smart people do it all the time. Especially scientists.

Hint: You don't have to herd people into concentration camps in order to reject their false beliefs. You can simply reject the false beliefs and let it go at that.
Yes, and I just happen to reject your notion that that was "just letting it go". That was a call to exclude non extremist Islam.
Let's go with another example of that: What would you expect to happen if someone said "Catholic citizens have a place in Germany, but the Catholic Church has not?"

Originally Posted by Toontown View Post
You still seem convinced that you can get away with strawing me up as being convinced of whatever you want me to be convinced of, so you can say I'm wrong about it. Sorry, you can't.

But eventually I'll leave, then you can straw up a load of crap. But then I might come back, and torch all your straw again.
You were waffling about majorities and arguments by number. Suddenly the actual number do not concern you? Odd. You do realize that your "success and truth of ideas works by numbers" is actually argumentum ad populum?

Originally Posted by Toontown View Post
What a crock. Tilt at windmills much?

What kind of disenfranchisement are you talking about? Take away their voting rights? That's the only enfranchisement they have to begin with, other than mandated protections under the law - which no minority can achieve on it's own, without the active involvement of the majority.

So...are you afraid that the majority, which grants the minority enfranchisement in the first place, might simply take it away if the minority doesn't have a loud enough voice?

German politics must be really wierd.

You know, the easy solution would be to issue bullhorns to all minority members (preferably unbeknownst to the disenfranchisement-prone majority). Then the minorities could be plenty loud.

But their false beliefs still wouldn't be part of the national identity. No amount of loud bullhorn-braying could accomplish that, but might make the majority want to disenfranchise them even more, and particularly relieve them of their bullhorns.
Odd, you seem to have no idea how institutionalized discrimination works. Or how marginalization starts with calls to disregard people on what they believe.
And as you constantly show your defense of Kauder is based on the same type of logical crud he made: Salafists bad therefore Islam bad. Sorry, but that is still the hasty generalization fallacy.
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Old 9th May 2012, 04:48 AM   #208
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Kauder is telling the same sort of lie that homophobes tell, where they claim, "Oh, I don't hate gay people, I just hate homosexuality."
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Old 9th May 2012, 09:38 AM   #209
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Originally Posted by ANTPogo View Post
Kauder is telling the same sort of lie that homophobes tell, where they claim, "Oh, I don't hate gay people, I just hate homosexuality."
"Love the sinner, hate the sin!" as the televangelists say.
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Old 9th May 2012, 09:48 AM   #210
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
"Love the sinner, hate the sin!" as the televangelists say.
Exactly. It's meaningless rhetoric, designed to deflect attention away from the discriminatory efforts of their bigotry.

"Islam doesn't belong in Germany, but Muslims do" is a nonsensical statement, because "Islam" simply does not exist independently of Muslims.
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Old 10th May 2012, 04:24 AM   #211
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Originally Posted by ANTPogo View Post
Exactly. It's meaningless rhetoric, designed to deflect attention away from the discriminatory efforts of their bigotry.

"Islam doesn't belong in Germany, but Muslims do" is a nonsensical statement, because "Islam" simply does not exist independently of Muslims.
So? Alcoholics do not exist independently of alcohol either. Therefore, by your reasoning, booze "belongs", because alcoholics exist. But then your reasoning subtly changes when Kauder comes into the picture. You clearly don't think Kauder's beliefs "belong", simply because Kauder exists. You'd like to exclude Kauder's beliefs from the national identity and culture, wouldn't you. Don't try to lie to old Toontown. I'll read you like a cheap paperback novel.
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Old 10th May 2012, 04:27 AM   #212
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Old 10th May 2012, 04:37 AM   #213
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Originally Posted by Toontown View Post
So? Alcoholics do not exist independently of alcohol either. Therefore, by your reasoning, booze "belongs", because alcoholics exist. But then your reasoning subtly changes when Kauder comes into the picture. You clearly don't think Kauder's beliefs "belong", simply because Kauder exists. You'd like to exclude Kauder's beliefs from the national identity and culture, wouldn't you. Don't try to lie to old Toontown. I'll read you like a cheap paperback novel.
You equate a religion and its adherents with a drug and its addicts. Thus, as alcoholism is bad, so booze doesn't belong. If you are not desirous of eliminating Islam and its adherents from Germany, why did you use such a highly-charged metaphor? You could equally well have said, knitting doesn't exist independently of people who knit.

That the reading material with which you are most at ease consists of cheap paperback novels comes as no great surprise to me, by the way.
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Old 10th May 2012, 05:04 AM   #214
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
You equate a religion and its adherents with a drug and its addicts. Thus, as alcoholism is bad, so booze doesn't belong. If you are not desirous of eliminating Islam and its adherents from Germany, why did you use such a highly-charged metaphor? You could equally well have said, knitting doesn't exist independently of people who knit.

That the reading material with which you are most at ease consists of cheap paperback novels comes as no great surprise to me, by the way.
We're all trying to defeat ideas we think are wrong, aren't we. Note how you try to defeat my ideas by making me out to be a jackboot. Well. Two can play your little game. If you do not wish to eliminate me and my ideas from the face of the earth, then why are you accusing me of wanting to eliminate Muslims?

Got any other bright ideas?

If such a thing as a national identity exists, then it cannot be all-inclusive, simply because the sum of conflicting ideas is equal to nothing. Thus, if a national identity exists, then it is necessarily exclusive of some ideologies held by some citizens. And there is nothing wrong with that. In fact, it is necessary.
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Old 10th May 2012, 05:22 AM   #215
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Originally Posted by Toontown View Post
We're all trying to defeat ideas we think are wrong, aren't we. Note how you try to defeat my ideas by making me out to be a jackboot. Well. Two can play your little game. If you do not wish to eliminate me and my ideas from the face of the earth, then why are you accusing me of wanting to eliminate Muslims?
Because you do, and I wish your ideas never to go unchallenged, and never to take effect. You can think what you like, for all I care. I want your ideas to be relegated to the margins of human thinking, where they belong along with flat-earthism.
Quote:
Got any other bright ideas?
Plenty.
Quote:
If such a thing as a national identity exists, then it cannot be all-inclusive, simply because the sum of conflicting ideas is equal to nothing. Thus, if a national identity exists, then it is necessarily exclusive of some ideologies held by some citizens. And there is nothing wrong with that. In fact, it is necessary.
Not necessary. Outrageous. If I adopt or change the ideology I embrace - does that change my national identity? If I were to become a Muslim, or a Mormon, for example - would that stop me from being Scottish? What a strange idea!
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Old 10th May 2012, 05:31 AM   #216
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Originally Posted by Toontown View Post
So? Alcoholics do not exist independently of alcohol either. Therefore, by your reasoning, ...

I'll read you like a cheap paperback novel.

From back to front, apparently. The analogy would be if Alcohol exists independent of Alcoholics, which it definitely does.
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Old 10th May 2012, 05:37 AM   #217
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
Because you do, and I wish your ideas never to go unchallenged, and never to take effect. You can think what you like, for all I care. I want your ideas to be relegated to the margins of human thinking,!
I see. You do not want my ideas to be part of the national identity, so you misrepresent them and then try to margiinalize the misrepresentation.

While somehow managing to remain blissfully blind to your own flaming hypocrisy.

You're in flames, enemy guy.

Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
Outrageous. If I adopt or change the ideology I embrace - does that change my national identity?
News flash: you don't have a national identity. You're not a nation. You're just a face in the crowd. That's all you'll ever be.

Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
If I were to become a Muslim, or a Mormon, for example - would that stop me from being Scottish? What a strange idea!
You are beginning to display an inability to distinguish yourself from a country. Not a good sign.

If you become a Muslim, doing so does not force or obligate your country to assimilate Islamic beliefs into it's national identity. What a strange idea.

Dude...you just augered in. You stayed with that burning hulk too long. You should have hit the silk.
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Old 10th May 2012, 06:01 AM   #218
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Originally Posted by Toontown View Post
So? Alcoholics do not exist independently of alcohol either.
Uh, yeah they do, actually. That is, in fact, the thing that makes them alcoholics.

Now, do you think that alcoholism exists independently of alcoholics, Toontown?

Quote:
I'll read you like a cheap paperback novel.
At least then you'd be reading something.
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Old 10th May 2012, 07:00 AM   #219
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Originally Posted by ANTPogo View Post
Uh, yeah they do, actually. That is, in fact, the thing that makes them alcoholics
Then, by that reasoning, Muslims exist independently of the beliefs which make them Muslims. And the beliefs exist independently of Islam, and Islam exists independently of the Koran, and the Koran exists independently of the Prophet, and the Prophet exists independently of God, and God exists independently of reality, and...

And Islam is too a part of German identity and culture. Is too, is too, is too!!!

Originally Posted by ANTPogo View Post
Now, do you think that alcoholism exists independently of alcoholics, Toontown?
Do you think planets exist independently of gravity?

Originally Posted by ANTPogo View Post
At least then you'd be reading something.
As opposed to what I'm reading now?

You appear to have joined the ranks of those who have lost it.
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Old 10th May 2012, 07:05 AM   #220
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Originally Posted by Toontown View Post
Then, by that reasoning, Muslims exist independently of the beliefs which make them Muslims. And the beliefs exist independently of Islam, and Islam exists independently of the Koran, and the Koran exists independently of the Prophet, and the Prophet exists independently of God, and God exists independently of reality, and...

And Islam is too a part of German identity and culture. Is too, is too, is too!!!



Do you think planets exist independently of gravity?



As opposed to what I'm reading now?

You appear to have joined the ranks of those who have lost it.
many young people in germany identify themself as germans and as muslims.
are you saying they got it wrong? they cant be both? they certenly think they can, i guess they forgot to ask for permission at the authority Kauder and toontown.
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Old 10th May 2012, 07:12 AM   #221
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Originally Posted by Toontown View Post
Then, by that reasoning, Muslims exist independently of the beliefs which make them Muslims. And the beliefs exist independently of Islam, and Islam exists independently of the Koran, and the Koran exists independently of the Prophet, and the Prophet exists independently of God, and God exists independently of reality, and...
You're really not good at this, are you?.

Quote:
As opposed to what I'm reading now?
Yes. Read a book already. Learn something.

You especially need to be reading this.
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Old 10th May 2012, 09:02 AM   #222
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Originally Posted by ANTPogo View Post
You're really not good at this, are you?
The semantic nitpicking you practice? Probably not. Such as seizing upon the canard "Once an alcoholic, always an alcoholic", and using that to claim that (recovered) alcoholics can in fact "exist" without alcohol. How clever of you.

Oh well. Recovered victims of false belief systems can live without the crutch of the false belief system too.

Originally Posted by ANTPogo View Post
Yes. Read a book already. Learn something.
Learn what? What you want me to know? Sorry. There are far more interesting and useful things to learn than what you want me to learn.

I'm not interested in what you want me to learn. I'm interested in what I want to learn. To that end, I read. But I don't read what you read, and you don't read what I read, and you don't know what I know, because we don't discuss what I know.

So why don't you take your own advice and stop talking about things you know nothing about.

Originally Posted by ANTPogo View Post
You especially need to be reading this.
Why? So I'll be good at analogies? I don't even like analogies. As the current nonsense demonstrates, using an analogy only gives the opponent the opportunity to avoid the issue by resorting to semantic games and claiming that the analogy is poor. Happens every time, like clockwork. I have never seen an instance where anyone has concurred with an analogy offered by an opponent, or failed to question the applicability of the analogy. I knew it would happen this time too.
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Old 10th May 2012, 09:21 AM   #223
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Originally Posted by DC View Post
many young people in germany identify themself as germans and as muslims.
are you saying they got it wrong? they cant be both? they certenly think they can, i guess they forgot to ask for permission at the authority Kauder and toontown.
I don't think anyone is saying that, not even Kauder. Kauder specifically offered the caveat that German citizens who are Muslims "do belong".

I think it is quite possible that Kauder misspoke, saying "Islam" when he meant "Salafists". But I won't assert that.

I don't know (nor do you) exactly what Kauder meant by "German identity and culture". But to mean anything, it would have to be a set of beliefs and ideas broadly agreed upon by a majority of Germans. A mishmash of all the random beliefs held by all Germans would sum to nothing, thus could not form a specific national identity.

Whatever the teapot tempest is all about, I know with great certainty that you are all overreacting, reaching, and using the Muslims for political footballs. That is what you all do, every day, all day long.
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Old 10th May 2012, 10:29 AM   #224
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Toontown

I said
Quote:
If I were to become a Muslim, or a Mormon, for example - would that stop me from being Scottish? What a strange idea!
And your response is
Quote:
You are beginning to display an inability to distinguish yourself from a country. Not a good sign.
Eh? Your observation would have made sense if I had written
Quote:
... would that stop me from being Scotland?
It is your ability to distinguish a country from an inhabitant of that country which seems to be impaired.
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Old 10th May 2012, 10:31 AM   #225
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I often wonder about the foundation upon which both sides of the Islam topic base their arguments, and their motivation too. I'm not so much talking about this thread and the OP as the wider issue. As I see it there are two significant stumbling blocks to open and honest debate.

Ignorance of Islam as a whole: I find it bizarre to see groups arguing about Islam when they don't understand what it is. All this serves to do is produce a flawed basis for any future discussion. Informed opinion based on research seems to have been replaced by shouted absolutes from people who really should learn to keep quiet.

The secret agenda: When we've isolated the hate-spewing racists who have latched onto Islam for their own aims, and the ignorant liberals who push their own ironically fascist agenda of free-speech suppression, then maybe a debate can be had between those who remain.

As it stands, little is being said that is conducive to anything but mounting outrage in both camps. (Or should I say all three camps, but that's another story?) Until there is open, informed debate, nothing can be resolved and the friction will continue to increase.
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Old 10th May 2012, 11:00 AM   #226
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
Toontown

I said And your response is Eh? Your observation would have made sense if I had written It is your ability to distinguish a country from an inhabitant of that country which seems to be impaired.
Your response was a non-sequitur. I did not suggest that your citizenship depended on whether others agree with your beliefs or not. I did the opposite of suggesting that your citizenship imposes upon your country any obligation to assimilate your beliefs.
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Old 10th May 2012, 11:33 AM   #227
Craig B
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Originally Posted by Toontown View Post
Your response was a non-sequitur. I did not suggest that your citizenship depended on whether others agree with your beliefs or not. I did the opposite of suggesting that your citizenship imposes upon your country any obligation to assimilate your beliefs.
Exactly so. My country doesn't have any obligation to assimilate my beliefs, or any beliefs whatsoever. Nor am I obliged to possess any particular philosophical or religious beliefs in order to be an inhabitant of my country.

We know about your sort of attack on religious minorities, here in Scotland. It is not that long (well into the 20th century) since Catholics were habitually accused of being unpatriotic, because their primary allegiance was to the Pope in Rome, and not to the democratically elected government of the United Kingdom. So they could not "belong". They had no place here. So it was said.

Last edited by Craig B; 10th May 2012 at 11:35 AM.
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Old 10th May 2012, 11:54 AM   #228
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
I often wonder about the foundation upon which both sides of the Islam topic base their arguments, and their motivation too. I'm not so much talking about this thread and the OP as the wider issue. As I see it there are two significant stumbling blocks to open and honest debate.
1. Ignorance of how to have an open, honest debate.

2. Lack of desire to have an open, honest debate.

In internet political forums, there are always packs of hard-wired ideologues who run in packs, will not give an inch, and are determined to dominate the gotcha games that pass for debate.

Originally Posted by baron View Post
Ignorance of Islam as a whole: I find it bizarre to see groups arguing about Islam when they don't understand what it is. All this serves to do is produce a flawed basis for any future discussion. Informed opinion based on research seems to have been replaced by shouted absolutes from people who really should learn to keep quiet.
Do you know what Islam is? Whatever you say Islam is, someone will dredge up some Muslim sect who are not that, or give lip service to not being that.

Unless what you say Islam is plays into their ideological hand.

These stumbling blocks of whom you speak are hardened political ideologues, looking to impose their ideological will on the naive.

Originally Posted by baron View Post
The secret agenda: When we've isolated the hate-spewing racists who have latched onto Islam for their own aims, and the ignorant liberals who push their own ironically fascist agenda of free-speech suppression, then maybe a debate can be had between those who remain.
Isolate? You mean ban them? That's the only way you can make them shut up.

Hardened veterans of the ideology wars take pains to avoid being banned.

Originally Posted by baron View Post
As it stands, little is being said that is conducive to anything but mounting outrage in both camps. (Or should I say all three camps, but that's another story?) Until there is open, informed debate, nothing can be resolved and the friction will continue to increase.
What did you think this is? A debating society? This is a freaking political forum. How long have you been frequenting political forums?

There can never be open, informed debate. Nothing can be resolved and the friction will continue.

Unless it's an echo chamber. And this thread is about to become an echo chamber.
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Old 10th May 2012, 12:00 PM   #229
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Originally Posted by Toontown View Post
Do you know what Islam is? Whatever you say Islam is, someone will dredge up some Muslim sect who are not that, or give lip service to not being that.
Oh, please tell us what "Islam" is, Mister I-don't-even-know-the-difference-between-Islam-and-Islamism!
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Old 10th May 2012, 12:31 PM   #230
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
Exactly so. My country doesn't have any obligation to assimilate my beliefs, or any beliefs whatsoever. Nor am I obliged to possess any particular philosophical or religious beliefs in order to be an inhabitant of my country.
And how does that mean your beliefs are necessarily a part of the national identity? What if you're a fascist? Does that mean the country must incorporate fascism, simply because you live there?

Hell no it doesn't, and you know it. That's why you slipped in the "inhabitant" word.

And dude...

No one, not even Kauder, and not even you, has said that anyone must possess any particular philosophical or religious beliefs in order to be an inhabitant of a country.

You came close, but stopped short. You said you want to isolate and marginalize me and my beliefs, even though you either have no clue what they are, or are feigning ignorance.

Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
We know about your sort of attack on religious minorities, here in Scotland.
Back to your jackboot-fitting again, I see.

Yer left...yer left...yer left, left, left...

Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
It is not that long (well into the 20th century) since Catholics were habitually accused of being unpatriotic, because their primary allegiance was to the Pope in Rome, and not to the democratically elected government of the United Kingdom.
Hard to see how they could be patriotic with that attitude.

Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
So they could not "belong". They had no place here. So it was said.
Well, there you go misrepresenting our boy Kauder again, no doubt preparatory to equating me to him again.

Once again: Kauder did not say Muslims do not belong. He said the opposite. He did say "Islam" does not fit the German identity and culture, and so does not belong. That's an opinion. Surely you can take issue with that. Surely you don't need to keep lying about what he said, and then attributing the misrepresentation to me. Or maybe you do. Maybe that's all you've got.

Muslims are people. Islam is a religious ideology. The two are not identical. People are not their beliefs. Did you think you were hurting me when you mocked up some beliefs for me and then declared your undying opposition to them and your determination to "marginalize" me because of them? BZZZZT! WRONG! First, they weren't even my beliefs, and second, my feelings wouldn't be hurt if they were. I don't identify with variable beliefs.
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Old 10th May 2012, 12:34 PM   #231
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Originally Posted by Toontown View Post
Hard to see how they could be patriotic with that attitude.
Ah. So you know as much about Catholicism as you do about Islam, I see.
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Old 10th May 2012, 01:16 PM   #232
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Originally Posted by Toontown View Post
1. Ignorance of how to have an open, honest debate.

2. Lack of desire to have an open, honest debate.

In internet political forums, there are always packs of hard-wired ideologues who run in packs, will not give an inch, and are determined to dominate the gotcha games that pass for debate.



Do you know what Islam is? Whatever you say Islam is, someone will dredge up some Muslim sect who are not that, or give lip service to not being that.

Unless what you say Islam is plays into their ideological hand.

These stumbling blocks of whom you speak are hardened political ideologues, looking to impose their ideological will on the naive.



Isolate? You mean ban them? That's the only way you can make them shut up.

Hardened veterans of the ideology wars take pains to avoid being banned.



What did you think this is? A debating society? This is a freaking political forum. How long have you been frequenting political forums?

There can never be open, informed debate. Nothing can be resolved and the friction will continue.

Unless it's an echo chamber. And this thread is about to become an echo chamber.
When I mentioned about what Islam is I was talking in a broader sense, in that most people seem to think it's a belief system equivalent to Christianity or Buddhism. Admittedly for some Muslims it is, especially in West, but this only serves to confuse the issue because you end up with as many definitions of Islam as there are Muslims. Strictly speaking there's no requirement to reverse engineer Islam from the beliefs of Muslims - you just read the texts and the history books - but then again, if you're talking about contemporary social impact then it's the practicalities that matter. Both need to be taken into account and it's easy to see where confusion arises.

By isolate I didn't mean ban, I mean recognise for what they are. So when a racist organisation starts spouting about Islam we know they're really talking about Pakistanis or brown people (no causal link I know but there's a correlation and that's all that matters). Similarly when a frothing lefty gaggle tries to shout down honest debate with their cries of "Nazi" we can safely ignore them too because they're just the other side of the same coin.
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Old 10th May 2012, 01:20 PM   #233
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
Similarly when a frothing lefty gaggle tries to shout down honest debate with their cries of "Nazi" we can safely ignore them too because they're just the other side of the same coin.
What about when it's the non-"lefty" side that starts crying Nazi first?

EDIT: This particular discussion was poisoned from the start.
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Old 10th May 2012, 01:22 PM   #234
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
When I mentioned about what Islam is I was talking in a broader sense, in that most people seem to think it's a belief system equivalent to Christianity or Buddhism. Admittedly for some Muslims it is, especially in West, but this only serves to confuse the issue because you end up with as many definitions of Islam as there are Muslims. Strictly speaking there's no requirement to reverse engineer Islam from the beliefs of Muslims - you just read the texts and the history books - but then again, if you're talking about contemporary social impact then it's the practicalities that matter. Both need to be taken into account and it's easy to see where confusion arises.
What do you think is the difference between Islam and those other religions?
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Old 10th May 2012, 01:39 PM   #235
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Originally Posted by ANTPogo View Post
Ah. So you know as much about Catholicism as you do about Islam, I see.
If you want to take issue with Craig B.'s description of Scottish Catholics' allegiances, take it up with Craig B. It's not my description. I simply expressed skepticism of it.
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Old 10th May 2012, 01:41 PM   #236
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Originally Posted by Toontown View Post
If you want to take issue with Craig B.'s description of Scottish Catholics' allegiances, take it up with Craig B. It's not my description. I simply expressed skepticism of it.
He wasn't describing their allegiances, he was describing the accusations about their allegiances that were leveled at them.
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Old 10th May 2012, 02:06 PM   #237
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Originally Posted by ANTPogo View Post
What about when it's the non-"lefty" side that starts crying Nazi first?

EDIT: This particular discussion was poisoned from the start.
Probably best ignore it from both sides.

Originally Posted by Moss View Post
What do you think is the difference between Islam and those other religions?
That would take a bit longer than I have available. The answer would also vary depending on geographic region, the strand of Islam and the religion you were comparing Islam against. Islam is unique in many ways because of its tight integration with culture and law. For example, sharia instructs on all aspects of Muslim life and social interaction (obviously many Muslims don't follow sharia but I'm talking academically). Sharia is derived from hadith which are effectively sayings of Muhammad, transcribed from Gabriel who was acting as God's secretary. So you have a direct link between culture and divine instruction. Christianity also has this but to a much lesser extent. Islam is more than a personal relationship with God and this has its roots in how Islam began, essentially as a tool of consolidation and conquest.

Taking Christianity, another aspect is how the ideology evolves. Christianity has been allowed to move from the turgid goings on of the OT to lovely stuff like the Golden Rule through the coming of Jesus, but more importantly as a text the Bible is acknowledged to be the work of man and therefore fallible and open to interpretation. In contrast, the Koran is alleged to be the letter-perfect word of Allah and cannot be changed in any way. This makes a comprehensive theory of cherry-picking and mitigation very difficult, made more so by the agenda-heavy instructions of the Islamic scholars. Of course many Muslims do obey only selective parts of the Koran, and don't want to live under sharia, but in terms of academic Islam there is no justification for their stance. Needless to say that in the real world the attitudes of these Muslims are very welcome.
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Old 10th May 2012, 02:06 PM   #238
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Originally Posted by ANTPogo View Post
Oh, please tell us what "Islam" is, Mister I-don't-even-know-the-difference-between-Islam-and-Islamism!
First you tell me to shut up about things I know nothing about. Then you beg me to tell you all about it. Well, OK. You asked for it:

"Islam" is an umbrella term used to describe a loose conglomeration of religious sects centered around the teachings of a self-proclaimed prophet who lived in Mecca in the 5th century. As if it matters.

The Prophet's teachings have given rise to all manner of foolishness.

Many details could be laboriously provided, but why bother. It would be like providing a detailed blow-by-blow of a monkey fight. Monkey fights are stupid, but funny if the monkeys are not fighting inside your house. Use your imagination. You've seen plenty of monkey fights. They're all much the same.

The End
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Old 10th May 2012, 02:29 PM   #239
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Originally Posted by Toontown View Post
Once again: Kauder did not say Muslims do not belong. He said the opposite. He did say "Islam" does not fit the German identity and culture, and so does not belong.
You really have got to be kidding. If I were to say: "I am not saying Catholics don't belong in Scotland; I'm saying the opposite. Catholicism does not fit the Scottish identity and culture, and so does not belong" I would be taken for a lunatic, and rightly so.

Opposite?? I don't believe I have ever read anything as nonsensical as that.
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Old 10th May 2012, 02:37 PM   #240
Craig B
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Originally Posted by Toontown View Post
First you tell me to shut up about things I know nothing about. Then you beg me to tell you all about it. Well, OK. You asked for it:

"Islam" is an umbrella term used to describe a loose conglomeration of religious sects centered around the teachings of a self-proclaimed prophet who lived in Mecca in the 5th century. As if it matters.
For your sake I hope it doesn't matter. He lived most of his life, and all his preaching life, in the 7th century, not the 5th. I think the "shut up about things you know nothing about" was good advice.
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