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Tags Charles Kinsey , Jonathan Aledda , police misconduct charges , police shootings , racial incidents , racism charges

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Old 21st July 2016, 01:03 AM   #1
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OMG! Another unarmed black man with his hands up shot.

God, this one is even more insane than any of the others.

Unarmed Therapist Shot by North Miami Police While Trying to Calm Patient With Autism

You have to watch the video, it's unbelievable. A therapist from a group home trying to help a patient who had a toy truck was shot. The police are lined up with their rifles out behind a car while the man, on his back with his hands in the air is yelling, it's a toy car, trying to keep the patient from being shot.

Unbelievable.
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Old 21st July 2016, 01:07 AM   #2
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Sickening. But defenders of this assault will turn up.....
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Old 21st July 2016, 01:13 AM   #3
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Glad he's alive. Hope he sues those ****ers and the officer responsible is fired and charged.
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Old 21st July 2016, 01:20 AM   #4
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I was wondering how long it'd take before this one showed up here. Less than 12 hours is pretty good.

Caveat to everything I say - I'm sick of watching these videos, I didn't do it when I saw the story, and I will avoid it as much as possible now.

This strikes me as another example of stunningly bad policy. Hey, there's a guy threatening suicide, let's all point our rifles at him and the guy who is talking to him. A simple health worker could do far better in that situation - except they shot the health worker who was talking the guy down.
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Old 21st July 2016, 01:24 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
God, this one is even more insane than any of the others.

Unarmed Therapist Shot by North Miami Police While Trying to Calm Patient With Autism

You have to watch the video, it's unbelievable. A therapist from a group home trying to help a patient who had a toy truck was shot. The police are lined up with their rifles out behind a car while the man, on his back with his hands in the air is yelling, it's a toy car, trying to keep the patient from being shot.

Unbelievable.
WTF?

I can understand cops being cautious initially given they started out with no more than a report of a man with a gun, but WHAT THE ACTUAL ****??????
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Old 21st July 2016, 01:35 AM   #6
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"Sir, why did you shoot me?"
"Because you're black I dunno."
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Old 21st July 2016, 02:09 AM   #7
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The truck could have been loaded.
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Old 21st July 2016, 02:17 AM   #8
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I wonder what the post hoc justification from the PD and the officer will be.
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Old 21st July 2016, 02:35 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by Cain View Post
"Sir, why did you shoot me?"
"Because you're black I dunno."
The way the victim said it, the cop sounded actually baffled. "I don't know." Almost like it seemed like the next right thing to do ... to make something happen instead of everyone just calming down.
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Old 21st July 2016, 02:38 AM   #10
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Nan, I think it was just an accident, he was already nervous with finger on trigger, and he accidentally added a few pound more and fired in the leg of the guy (so downward rather than center mass).

Still that is indicative (IMO) of the general problem that lethal option seem to be the first resort rather than the last one, and even if they *thought* initially it was a gun not a truck, they should have had the possibility to check that. None apparently did, since they still had the gun at ready during the confrontation.

In other word lethal readiness trumpeted assessment of the situation. (and that sounds to me that I expect more such accident or tamir rice alike incident to happen).

Last edited by Aepervius; 21st July 2016 at 02:39 AM.
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Old 21st July 2016, 02:41 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by Aepervius View Post
Nan, I think it was just an accident, he was already nervous with finger on trigger, and he accidentally added a few pound more and fired in the leg of the guy (so downward rather than center mass).

Still that is indicative (IMO) of the general problem that lethal option seem to be the first resort rather than the last one, and even if they *thought* initially it was a gun not a truck, they should have had the possibility to check that. None apparently did, since they still had the gun at ready during the confrontation.

In other word lethal readiness trumpeted assessment of the situation.
If he had his finger on the trigger and didn't intend to shoot, that means he is completely incompetent at handling firearms and should not be a police officer.

Last edited by Tony Stark; 21st July 2016 at 02:44 AM.
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Old 21st July 2016, 02:42 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by Aepervius View Post
Nan, I think it was just an accident, he was already nervous with finger on trigger, and he accidentally added a few pound more and fired in the leg of the guy (so downward rather than center mass).

Still that is indicative (IMO) of the general problem that lethal option seem to be the first resort rather than the last one, and even if they *thought* initially it was a gun not a truck, they should have had the possibility to check that. None apparently did, since they still had the gun at ready during the confrontation.

In other word lethal readiness trumpeted assessment of the situation. (and that sounds to me that I expect more such accident or tamir rice alike incident to happen).
Accident, sure, so why cuff the guy like he was a threat? How was that an accident?
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Old 21st July 2016, 02:58 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by Aepervius View Post
Nan, I think it was just an accident, he was already nervous with finger on trigger, and he accidentally added a few pound more and fired in the leg of the guy (so downward rather than center mass).

Still that is indicative (IMO) of the general problem that lethal option seem to be the first resort rather than the last one, and even if they *thought* initially it was a gun not a truck, they should have had the possibility to check that. None apparently did, since they still had the gun at ready during the confrontation.

In other word lethal readiness trumpeted assessment of the situation. (and that sounds to me that I expect more such accident or tamir rice alike incident to happen).
In some of these cases I see room for giving cops the benefit of the doubt. Like when a kid is play-acting with a very realistic toy gun and inexperienced cops, buzzed on adrenaline, fire prematurely. But this? The guy is going out of his way to show cops exactly where his hands are while explaining about the autistic kid (? not sure age) and the toy truck. I don't know what else was going on around there but there seemed to be enough time to hang back out of handgun range while assessing the (nil) threat.

I'm glad this victim lived. With all the heat out there we need some reasonable way to train cops to de-escalate. IMO they actually should not be putting themselves in range to be hurt if there are better tactical options. If the cops feel more in control they will be less likely to make poor split-second decisions. It's not all racism, I think people are on edge in general.

Last edited by Minoosh; 21st July 2016 at 03:00 AM. Reason: added "inexperienced"
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Old 21st July 2016, 03:02 AM   #14
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Hardly accidental. He was shot three times.
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Old 21st July 2016, 03:10 AM   #15
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Come on the proper thing to do with someone threatening suicide is to set a dog on him not shoot him. That way your police dogs can get their bite in, even if they don't get to tear the face enough to require skin grafts.

http://watchdogsarasota.heraldtribun...e-get-ur-bite/

Quote:
Police records show that Lemay’s injuries came up in electronic messages sent between Officers Bush and Brandon McHale later that day.

“YOUR BITE OR (Dietz’s)?” McHale inquired.

“I LET (Dietz) HAVE IT,” Bush replied.

“NICE, HOW BAD?” McHale asked.

“BAD,” Bush wrote. “FACE AND BACK.”

“SKIN GRAFT BAD?” McHale asked.

“NO,” Bush wrote.

“COULDA BEEN WORSE THEN, HE SHOULD HAVE COMPLIED,”
That is how policing should be done clearly.
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Old 21st July 2016, 03:12 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by Aepervius View Post
Nan, I think it was just an accident, he was already nervous with finger on trigger, and he accidentally added a few pound more and fired in the leg of the guy (so downward rather than center mass).
Given that the victim was lying on the ground when shot the officer was off-target horizontally, not vertically. That means that the weapon was raised and aimed.

Also if he is not intending to shoot what the **** is his finger doing on the trigger? That is Firearms 101 - finger OFF the trigger.
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Last edited by erlando; 21st July 2016 at 03:16 AM. Reason: Clarification
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Old 21st July 2016, 03:16 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Accident, sure, so why cuff the guy like he was a threat? How was that an accident?
Agreed

!!!???
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Old 21st July 2016, 03:18 AM   #18
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Armchair cops are the best. Hope no one shoots a cop over this.
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Old 21st July 2016, 03:19 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Accident, sure, so why cuff the guy like he was a threat? How was that an accident?
And then let him lie there for 20 minutes bleeding..
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Old 21st July 2016, 03:21 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by applecorped View Post
Armchair cops are the best. Hope no one shoots a cop over this.
So you don't find this incident in any way strange or out of the ordinary? The police handled it just A-OK?
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Last edited by erlando; 21st July 2016 at 03:21 AM. Reason: Punctuation
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Old 21st July 2016, 03:21 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
Hardly accidental. He was shot three times.
Source on the three shots? The articles I've seen imply, but don't explicitly state, one shot.

Also, I like how the press release in the OP article make it sound like the cops only found out about the autism/caretaker relationship after the onsite negotiations were over, not like the man was yelling it repeatedly during the confrontation. They were both "later identified".
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Old 21st July 2016, 03:22 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by applecorped View Post
Armchair cops are the best.
I do not understand your post.
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Old 21st July 2016, 03:24 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by applecorped View Post
Armchair cops are the best. Hope no one shoots a cop over this.
I also hope no one shoots a cop over this.

Do you believe Kinsey did something requiring the cop to fire at him? If so, what?
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Old 21st July 2016, 03:30 AM   #24
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Nah, it really looks like negligent discharge. Which is alarming as well, don't get me wrong ..
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Old 21st July 2016, 03:41 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by Dr.Sid View Post
Nah, it really looks like negligent discharge. Which is alarming as well, don't get me wrong ..
I agree that it feels that way, given what we know.

But the handcuffs and delay of medical attention? Maybe there is a policy of "You shoot 'em, you cuff 'em" no matter what the circumstances? Clearly, there was some dumbassery involved here.
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Old 21st July 2016, 03:47 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
Source on the three shots? The articles I've seen imply, but don't explicitly state, one shot.

Also, I like how the press release in the OP article make it sound like the cops only found out about the autism/caretaker relationship after the onsite negotiations were over, not like the man was yelling it repeatedly during the confrontation. They were both "later identified".
Three shots fired but only one hit.

http://www.miamiherald.com/news/loca...e90905442.html
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Old 21st July 2016, 03:50 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by erlando View Post
And then let him lie there for 20 minutes bleeding..
Could've been worse, Levar Jones was left handcuffed for hours, even after he was in the hospital,after some cop got jumpy and shot wildly at him.

Anyway, y'all can have fun arguing with the folks here who say it's always okay for police and vigilantes to shoot black people if you want.
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Old 21st July 2016, 03:54 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Three shots fired but only one hit.

http://www.miamiherald.com/news/loca...e90905442.html
So now we are at 3 negligent discharges?
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Old 21st July 2016, 03:57 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Accident, sure, so why cuff the guy like he was a threat? How was that an accident?
My first guess knowing a cop friend : it is SOP.
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Old 21st July 2016, 03:58 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Three shots fired but only one hit.

http://www.miamiherald.com/news/loca...e90905442.html
That's what I was missing. Thanks.
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Old 21st July 2016, 03:58 AM   #31
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With 3 shots that's sadly different. It's shoot first, ask later. Also why were they handcuffed AT ALL ?
Every cop present should be fired and the one shooting should face attempted murder.
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Old 21st July 2016, 04:00 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by Dr.Sid View Post
With 3 shots that's sadly different. It's shoot first, ask later. Also why were they handcuffed AT ALL ?
Every cop present should be fired and the one shooting should face attempted murder.
Because after being shot by a cop he must clearly be a dangerous violent person and needs to be treated as such. Logic 101 clearly. They wouldn't be so negligent as to have an accidental discharge right?
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Old 21st July 2016, 04:14 AM   #33
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I participated in a case a few years ago that involved an officer who accidentally fired his M4 Carbine that very fortunately, only resulted in property damage. He fired three rounds. The basic question in this incident was that firing one shot could be considered an accident, but firing three shots could not.

The rifle issued to the officer had three positions for the selector switch- safe, semi auto, and three round burst. In burst mode, pulling the trigger once fires three rounds in full auto for each pull of the trigger. After examining still photos shot by a bystander, it was clear that the officer had set the selector for three round burst, and had his finger inside of the trigger guard, two very serious safety violations as well as violations of department policy.

The situation did not warrant his taking the weapon off safe and setting it for semi-auto single shot, let alone three round burst. And, the situation did not warrant him even putting his finger inside the trigger guard and on the trigger in the first place. The incident was ruled an accident, and the officer found negligent. He lost his job and actually served time for negligent discharge of a firearm within city limits.

This latest shooting where the officer fired three shots could possibly be an accident stemming from a similar set of conditions. Two things I see time and time again, are shoddy/lax firearms training, and a complete abandonment of the principles of de-escalation. It's a formula for disaster. Accident or intentional, there is absolutely no excuse for this latest horrible incident regardless of the root cause.

Last edited by robertovila; 21st July 2016 at 04:17 AM.
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Old 21st July 2016, 04:15 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
So now we are at 3 negligent discharges?
We don't know what weapon was used.

Lots have a burst mode where 3 shots are fired for a single pull of the trigger.

MP5N for example.
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Old 21st July 2016, 04:16 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
We don't know what weapon was used.

Lots have a burst mode where 3 shots are fired for a single pull of the trigger.

MP5N for example.
Ah so after Nice they were so worried about a toy truck rampage they sent in the swat team.
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Old 21st July 2016, 04:21 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
We don't know what weapon was used.

Lots have a burst mode where 3 shots are fired for a single pull of the trigger.

MP5N for example.
Since when have normal cops such weapon ?
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Old 21st July 2016, 04:23 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by applecorped View Post
Armchair cops are the best. Hope no one shoots a cop over this.
This is why I support BLM.

Because when a video like this comes out, no matter how egregious, someone always does their damndest to figure out an excuse as to why that man deserved to be shot.
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Old 21st July 2016, 04:24 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by Aepervius View Post
Since when have normal cops such weapon ?
Many cops in America have such weapons in their cars. My brother is a cop and every officer in his department carries an M4 in the car.
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Old 21st July 2016, 04:29 AM   #39
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Does police training in the US not involve de-escalation techniques AT ALL?! Do police officers not believe ANYTHING people say? Is every member of the public considered a lethal threat by default to be dealt with accordingly?

Why would a police force meet a suicidal person with raised weapons and orders of "DROP THE WEAPON" barked at them? How is that in any way a meaningful interaction?

So many questions...
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Last edited by erlando; 21st July 2016 at 04:30 AM. Reason: Clarification (Note to self: Use preview)
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Old 21st July 2016, 04:31 AM   #40
Upchurch
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Originally Posted by robertovila View Post
I participated in a case a few years ago that...
Well reasoned. That would explain both the number of shots and the reported response the the cop didn't know why he shot Kinsey. A dumbassery SOP of cuffing anyone the police happen to shoot would pretty much complete the picture.

Now we just have to wait to see if the evidence supports the hypothesis, see if the cop faces any discipline, and see if this results in policy or training changes in the PD.
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