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Tags Charles Kinsey , Jonathan Aledda , police misconduct charges , police shootings , racial incidents , racism charges

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Old 22nd July 2016, 06:32 PM   #361
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
Another incident, which wins a prze for lack of self-awareness on the part of the police officer:

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/...n-king-n614586

This is after the cop had violently assaulted King.
First of all, the cop who talked about black people being excessively violent was not the one who subdued her.

Second, here's the video:

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I AGREE


Let's count the ways that she screwed up:

1. Attempts to get out of the car and saunter away with her BS "I was pulling in here, I wasn't getting pulled over," excuse.

2. Refuses twice to put her feet in the car so the cop can shut the door (and make sure she doesn't try to bolt when he goes back to his vehicle).

3. Refuses to get out of the vehicle and fights against being removed despite the cop's continued demands to "stop resisting."

4. Refuses numerous times to put her hands behind her back (the cop must tell her ten times to do this and she continues to struggle).

5. Attempts to stand up.

It's a textbook case of how to get a cop pissed off at you. Was the force excessive? Possibly, but would it be considered similarly excessive if it was a 200-lb man instead of a woman? Are cops supposed to treat gals with kid gloves?
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Old 22nd July 2016, 06:44 PM   #362
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Get in car!

Get out of car!
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Old 22nd July 2016, 07:15 PM   #363
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
Aaaand the "good cop" tries to cover up for the bad cop. Hands up everyone who is surprised by that.
This goes into the "bro cop" and us vs them culture problem. One cop does something stupid and other cops are expected to help cover for them or be treated as "dogs or rats" and their lives can be made hell. Basically its weighted in favour to those who are ******* and who expect everyone else to take personal responsibilities for their own stupid or thuggish actions.

At no point does any troublemaker expect that they will have to be personally and soley accountable for their own stupid actions.

One stupid ******* many lives ruined on both sides of the line.
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Old 22nd July 2016, 11:55 PM   #364
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
... Are cops supposed to treat gals with kid gloves?
Unarmed ones? Do you need to even ask? Shameful cowardice and no knowledge of how to handle moderately sticky situations make this cop a failure. Heck, an aisle monitor in a supermarket faces worse every day, yet these beefballs panic.

When a dominant personality type does not get its way immediately, violence ensues. (This type and this behavior have become increasingly popular in movies, TV, and popular discourse, as has a militaristic worldview of might making right, of rote legal compliance and not justice.) However, when one such bully meets real and effective counter-force, the reaction is normally rapid capitulation and an attempt to ingratiate, while dismissing the importance of prior actions. This can be hilarious and is a great deal of fun to experience when you put them in their lowly place, as any ex-bartender knows.
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Old 23rd July 2016, 02:17 AM   #365
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Originally Posted by Carnivore View Post
The handful of times I've seen cops in NZ and Britain deal with tense situations (occasionally I had to call them when I worked in hotels) I remember the approach was usually the same. Calm voices, physical separation of disputants, politeness, asking questions of everyone involved and listening to the answers.
My experiences tally with this too. The first thing the police do is de-escalate, then once everyone's calmed down they sort out what's going on and deal with it. As a result, people come to expect this, and almost instinctively just calm down a bit when the police arrive. The US police often, it seems, do exactly the opposite.

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Old 23rd July 2016, 02:27 AM   #366
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Odd question probably.

But would a US cop be in his rights to shoot an offender who spits on them or bites them?

Only ask as it seems a good example of common situations between countries
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Old 23rd July 2016, 02:35 AM   #367
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Odd question probably.

But would a US cop be in his rights to shoot an offender who spits on them or bites them?

Only ask as it seems a good example of common situations between countries
No. They have to reasonably believe their life or someone else's life is in danger.

They could throw them to the ground, pepper spray them, tazer them, ect though.
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Old 23rd July 2016, 02:40 AM   #368
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Originally Posted by Tony Stark View Post
No. They have to reasonably believe their life or someone else's life is in danger.

They could throw them to the ground, pepper spray them, tazer them, ect though.
Same then.

Although on rare ocassions they just go with the rarely accepted punching in the face (If they are obviously a prick who deserves it)
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Old 23rd July 2016, 05:43 AM   #369
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Originally Posted by Tony Stark View Post
No. They have to reasonably believe their life or someone else's life is in danger.

They could throw them to the ground, pepper spray them, tazer them, ect though.
It occurred to me that with AIDS, hepatitis, and other fun things which could be transfered by a bite especially if there's any blood swapping due to bleeding gums, cut tongue, etc... Could someone claim their life was in danger, or others' lives were, if a biter wasn't stopped?

I still would suggest all those other options you listed, in real life. But let's say a cop found himself standing over the body of a biter with a smoking gun, would it be a believable justification?
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Old 23rd July 2016, 05:47 AM   #370
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Originally Posted by Pup View Post
It occurred to me that with AIDS, hepatitis, and other fun things which could be transfered by a bite especially if there's any blood swapping due to bleeding gums, cut tongue, etc... Could someone claim their life was in danger, or others' lives were, if a biter wasn't stopped?

I still would suggest all those other options you listed, in real life. But let's say a cop found himself standing over the body of a biter with a smoking gun, would it be a believable justification?
I don't think so.
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Old 23rd July 2016, 05:50 AM   #371
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
Another incident, which wins a prze for lack of self-awareness on the part of the police officer:

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/...n-king-n614586


This is after the cop had violently assaulted King.
Well, there's also the obvious racism, and the confusion of basic probability, *and* the ignorance of history (that's not where the *black people are violent and scary" stereotype comes from).

Granted, I didn't watch the video, and I won't be doing so. I'm going on the descriptions I've read, instead.
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Old 23rd July 2016, 06:16 AM   #372
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
*and* the ignorance of history (that's not where the *black people are violent and scary" stereotype comes from).
It seems to go way back in the US, well into slavery days. Is that what you're thinking? Because putting someone in chains while you rape their wife and sell off their children is no excuse for someone to be upset, so it must just be those back people's natural violent tendencies.
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Old 23rd July 2016, 06:49 AM   #373
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Originally Posted by Pup View Post
It seems to go way back in the US, well into slavery days. Is that what you're thinking? Because putting someone in chains while you rape their wife and sell off their children is no excuse for someone to be upset, so it must just be those back people's natural violent tendencies.
It's an aside, but:

The stereotype really picks up during reconstruction and shortly afterwards. During slavery, it was pretty normal to stereotype black people as almost childlike, and happy to be enslaved - a runaway slave was hypothesized to be suffering from drapetomania, for example. This is not to say that people didn't fear slave revolts, such as the one that occured in Haiti or that Nat Turner tried to lead, but racism has never been all that coherent.

But it's after the end of slavery where we get the rise in popularity of the "brute" or "savage" stereotype. This black guy is inexplicably enraged at white people, murderous, and possessing superhuman strength and resistance to pain, and often greatly desiring to rape white women. Basically, if you look at the wild story that, among many others, George Zimmerman told of Trayvon Martin, it's just this stereotype.
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Old 23rd July 2016, 06:52 AM   #374
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Originally Posted by Pup View Post
It seems to go way back in the US, well into slavery days. Is that what you're thinking? Because putting someone in chains while you rape their wife and sell off their children is no excuse for someone to be upset, so it must just be those back people's natural violent tendencies.
Yeah black people are so much more violent than whites. From European colonialisim to the formation of the kkk and the two world wars, black people have been responsible for all this violence and more. Think about it.

Even when Europeans and true Americans selflessly gave them free passage out of Africa and guarenteed jobs on arrival, how did they show their thanks? By whining about slavery and genocide and conning useful idiots in the north to take up their violent ways and starting a civil war, that cost America its greatness.

So you can see our police forces have a duty, nay a responsibilty to beat and shoot the violence out of black people and their non compliant white indoctrinated slaves, so that they may learn the ways of peace and appropriate respect. Just like Jesus and the merchants in the temple.
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Old 23rd July 2016, 07:02 AM   #375
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
As I recall, the biggest factors in the drop in crime rate are the dramatic reduction in environmental lead, resulting predominantly from the elimination of leaded petrol; improvements in education; social programs to remedy poverty and help provide employment; and the decline in the drug trade resulting from the cocaine crash.

The primary driver of crime, particularly violent crime, in the US has been the drug trade, exacerbated by the War on Drugs.

High prison populations have actually been counterproductive for the reduction of crime rates, as they affect predominantly minority communities, and result in very large numbers of adults who are effectively unemployable (or at least make it very difficult to find employment). Reforms and social programs have improved that situation somewhat; but the rise of for-profit prisons and their attendant inmate quotas and poor availability of education and re-integration programs, have stymied many attempts at reform and enabled the problem to persist at artificially high rates.
I could believe that some environmental factors (like lead abatement) have played a role in overall crime reduction- but I would not concede without evidence that they are responsible for all or even most of the reduction.
It seems the same argument used to support that hypothesis (as household exposure to lead has come down, crime has come down) is equally valid for the argument that "get tough on crime- broken windows " type initiatives have reduced crime rates overall.

As to efforts to make prisoners employable after their incarceration period is over, I must wonder if those efforts would not be better directed towards helping underprivileged non-offenders obtain employment. The unemployment rate in minority communities is already too high, what help would it be to residents of these areas to now have to compete further against the very people who have been making their lives miserable for the few available jobs?
Should a mother in an economically distressed area tell her unemployed child " I guess you better do something to get yourself arrested then, so you can get some help finding a job" ?
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Old 23rd July 2016, 10:24 AM   #376
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
<snip>

As to efforts to make prisoners employable after their incarceration period is over, I must wonder if those efforts would not be better directed towards helping underprivileged non-offenders obtain employment.<snip>

Do we have to choose between the two?
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Old 23rd July 2016, 10:44 AM   #377
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
I think these statements need to be prefaced with 'in the worst instances'.

I suspect there are many police/public interactions that don't conform to the above, we just don't hear about them.
If a camera isn't present, anything less than subservience to cops will more often than not lead to some violation of the constitution by the police. It is more the norm than the worst case when a cop, feeling his authority is being challenged, will become abusive.

It is actually life threatening to insist on your constitutional rights when confronted by the police in America.
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Old 23rd July 2016, 11:24 AM   #378
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Originally Posted by sarge View Post
If a camera isn't present, anything less than subservience to cops will more often than not lead to some violation of the constitution by the police. It is more the norm than the worst case when a cop, feeling his authority is being challenged, will become abusive.

It is actually life threatening to insist on your constitutional rights when confronted by the police in America.
Agreed and there is public support for such compliance when you consider how many posters on this forum excuse police action by saying that the person the police shot did not do what they were told to.
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Old 23rd July 2016, 11:55 AM   #379
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
I could believe that some environmental factors (like lead abatement) have played a role in overall crime reduction- but I would not concede without evidence that they are responsible for all or even most of the reduction.
It seems the same argument used to support that hypothesis (as household exposure to lead has come down, crime has come down) is equally valid for the argument that "get tough on crime- broken windows " type initiatives have reduced crime rates overall.
There is plenty of fairly conclusive evidence for the lead. This is done by comparing states and nations that phased out leaded gasoline at different times to those that did not and are similar except for that change. Correcting for other factors as much as is possible, the cause-and-effect relationship is quite clear. For abortion the connection is less clear, but still probable.
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Old 23rd July 2016, 12:10 PM   #380
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
I could believe that some environmental factors (like lead abatement) have played a role in overall crime reduction- but I would not concede without evidence that they are responsible for all or even most of the reduction.
It seems the same argument used to support that hypothesis (as household exposure to lead has come down, crime has come down) is equally valid for the argument that "get tough on crime- broken windows " type initiatives have reduced crime rates overall.

As to efforts to make prisoners employable after their incarceration period is over, I must wonder if those efforts would not be better directed towards helping underprivileged non-offenders obtain employment. The unemployment rate in minority communities is already too high, what help would it be to residents of these areas to now have to compete further against the very people who have been making their lives miserable for the few available jobs?
Should a mother in an economically distressed area tell her unemployed child " I guess you better do something to get yourself arrested then, so you can get some help finding a job" ?
The removal of lead has only been properly attributed to reducing crimes of violence.
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Old 23rd July 2016, 12:29 PM   #381
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It wouldn't have done Kinsey any good, but I've long held that when detained by police for any reason (including traffic stops), treat that officer as if he has total authority over you. Do what they say. Avoid showing anything the might be considered "attitude." Groveling obeisance is the goal.

Since Kinsey was trying to do those, except for begging cops not to shoot the person he was taking care of, I don't see what he could have done differently. Act like he was dead already?
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Old 23rd July 2016, 12:55 PM   #382
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Originally Posted by sarge View Post
If a camera isn't present, anything less than subservience to cops will more often than not lead to some violation of the constitution by the police. It is more the norm than the worst case when a cop, feeling his authority is being challenged, will become abusive.

It is actually life threatening to insist on your constitutional rights when confronted by the police in America.
And it is not helped by anti-government domestic terrorism groups like the Sovereign Citizens. Those are the cop killers, not BLM. Not unarmed black guys laying on the ground with their hands up.
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Old 23rd July 2016, 03:08 PM   #383
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Its just a bad luck these black victims couldn't play basketball, football, sprint or box.

If they could the same cops would be idolising them at the weekend and groveling for an autograph
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Old 23rd July 2016, 03:34 PM   #384
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Hm .. playing dead might actually work ..
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Old 23rd July 2016, 04:19 PM   #385
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Originally Posted by Dr.Sid View Post
Hm .. playing dead might actually work ..
They probably still would have shot him
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Old 23rd July 2016, 04:51 PM   #386
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Originally Posted by ehcks View Post
And it is not helped by anti-government domestic terrorism groups like the Sovereign Citizens. Those are the cop killers, not BLM. Not unarmed black guys laying on the ground with their hands up.
I've found three that Sovereign Citizens have killed. Didn't the one guy in Texas kill more than that?
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Old 23rd July 2016, 05:07 PM   #387
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
Do we have to choose between the two?
Jobs are not plentiful enough as is.
The jobs ex offenders are likely persuing are the same ones that are available to those that are already disadvantaged. Helping ex cons find work at the expense of those who are trying to climb out of poverty is a tough sell for me.
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Old 23rd July 2016, 05:11 PM   #388
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Originally Posted by sarge View Post
If a camera isn't present, anything less than subservience to cops will more often than not lead to some violation of the constitution by the police. It is more the norm than the worst case when a cop, feeling his authority is being challenged, will become abusive.

It is actually life threatening to insist on your constitutional rights when confronted by the police in America.
I think we both agree that LEO's are not -and should not try to be- judges.
The place to appeal to ones' constitutional rights is in front of a judge.
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Old 23rd July 2016, 05:18 PM   #389
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Police Commander Suspended For Alleged Fabrications About Charles Kinsey Shooting

I had immediate qualms about the statements made by the Police Union rep, but it seems he was not the only person feeding us misinformation regarding the shooting.
A North Miami, Florida, police officer who shot an unarmed black mental health therapist was identified Friday as a SWAT team member,
and a police commander accused of fabricating information about the shooting was suspended.
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Old 23rd July 2016, 05:37 PM   #390
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Originally Posted by EHocking View Post
I had immediate qualms about the statements made by the Police Union rep, but it seems he was not the only person feeding us misinformation regarding the shooting.
A North Miami, Florida, police officer who shot an unarmed black mental health therapist was identified Friday as a SWAT team member,
and a police commander accused of fabricating information about the shooting was suspended.
Worse and worse. A SWAT team member. Highly trained specialists.
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Old 23rd July 2016, 05:48 PM   #391
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Originally Posted by Ernie M View Post
You've got that right. This could've had a whole different outcome.

Hopefully the officers involved will learn from their mistakes. Crisis Intervention Team training could go a long way...along with the ability to correctly assess a situation. Slow things down in an effort to de-escalate interactions with the public. Things have to change- the results could benefit everyone.

I wish behavior therapist Charles Kinsey a speedy and full recovery.

Charles Kinsey, you did an exemplary job to help ensure the safety and well-being of Rinaldo, your client/patient. You showed compassion, caring, and empathy. Thank you.
Agreed on all points.


Some good news I didn't see posted here yet-

CNN is reporting that Mr. Kinsey is now at home and recovering nicely.

He seems like one hell of a nice guy. I wish him well.

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Old 23rd July 2016, 05:54 PM   #392
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Odd question probably.

But would a US cop be in his rights to shoot an offender who spits on them or bites them?

Only ask as it seems a good example of common situations between countries
Spitting is considered to be assault and battery. They probably won't shoot but they may do this, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xtxoPCJCves
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Old 23rd July 2016, 06:01 PM   #393
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Worse and worse. A SWAT team member. Highly trained specialists.
Suggests to me that it is even more likely that the firearm was discharged accidentally.

I guess this is something that many Americans will struggle to understand.

As the number of firearms goes up, the potential for accidental discharge also goes up.

We'll probably never know what happened, but it could have been a slip, the officer could have been jostled, etc.

Hell, if the finger was on the trigger the officer may have hiccuped...
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Old 23rd July 2016, 06:03 PM   #394
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Originally Posted by Cleon View Post
I figured the reason Aussie cops don't shoot anyone is that the bullets come back.


daffy duck3.jpg
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Old 23rd July 2016, 06:10 PM   #395
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
It wouldn't have done Kinsey any good, but I've long held that when detained by police for any reason (including traffic stops), treat that officer as if he has total authority over you. Do what they say. Avoid showing anything the might be considered "attitude." Groveling obeisance is the goal.

Since Kinsey was trying to do those, except for begging cops not to shoot the person he was taking care of, I don't see what he could have done differently. Act like he was dead already?

Considering that the idiot cop who shot him wasn't even aiming for him I don't think that would have mattered much.
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Old 23rd July 2016, 06:18 PM   #396
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Originally Posted by novaphile View Post
Suggests to me that it is even more likely that the firearm was discharged accidentally.

I guess this is something that many Americans will struggle to understand.

As the number of firearms goes up, the potential for accidental discharge also goes up.

We'll probably never know what happened, but it could have been a slip, the officer could have been jostled, etc.

Hell, if the finger was on the trigger the officer may have hiccuped...

Then why are they claiming he missed what he was aiming at?
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Old 23rd July 2016, 06:54 PM   #397
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Originally Posted by novaphile View Post
Suggests to me that it is even more likely that the firearm was discharged accidentally.

I guess this is something that many Americans will struggle to understand.

As the number of firearms goes up, the potential for accidental discharge also goes up.

We'll probably never know what happened, but it could have been a slip, the officer could have been jostled, etc.

Hell, if the finger was on the trigger the officer may have hiccuped...
Which begs the question

Why was his finger on the trigger?
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Old 23rd July 2016, 07:32 PM   #398
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Originally Posted by Dr.Sid View Post
Hm .. playing dead might actually work ..
Pffft...Black people can't act well enough to convince anyone that they're dead. Haven't you seen the Oscar nominations for last year?
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Old 23rd July 2016, 08:12 PM   #399
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
I think we both agree that LEO's are not -and should not try to be- judges.
The place to appeal to ones' constitutional rights is in front of a judge.
That sounds like a standard argument for the power of a police state to arrest and abuse anyone they care to. If you don't like the way you're being treated, tell it to the judge. Meanwhile, shut up while I abuse your constitutional rights, or I'll kill you.

I presume that is not quite what you mean, but it is the responsibility of police, like everyone else, at least to try to respect a person's constitutional rights and not knowingly to violate them. It is, after all, the whole argument behind the reading of the Miranda warning.
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Old 23rd July 2016, 08:24 PM   #400
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
That sounds like a standard argument for the power of a police state to arrest and abuse anyone they care to. If you don't like the way you're being treated, tell it to the judge. Meanwhile, shut up while I abuse your constitutional rights, or I'll kill you.

I presume that is not quite what you mean, but it is the responsibility of police, like everyone else, at least to try to respect a person's constitutional rights and not knowingly to violate them. It is, after all, the whole argument behind the reading of the Miranda warning.
Just as an outsider looking in.

It seems Americans seem fixated with constitutional rights when it just seems to be a lack of brains and respect for the public.

If the cops want respect and sympathy for their position it works both ways.

That and ask. Order. Shoot. Is an extremely stupid way of training them.

There was zero reason for anyone to shoot even if it was a gun.

Have they not heard of dogs?
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