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9th August 2016, 05:37 AM | #481 |
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“If only it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?” Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, The Gulag Archipelago |
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9th August 2016, 05:43 AM | #482 |
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It's an assumption underlying both sides of the argument. If what they are doing now has no effect on safety, then mentioning safety is moot. You can't argue that cops are safer than they would be in construction if "being a cop" and doing whatever it is a cop does, doesn't intersect with safety.
To torture the point - if a construction worker stopped doing what it is they do and started doing exclusively stuff cops do, then we would expect their risk to go down. You can't disconnect the defining characteristics of the job (what they do) from the job title and the category you are measuring. What you probably want to say is that cops could do the same job differently and still be as safe (or safer), but that too requires a link between what they do and how safe they are. |
9th August 2016, 05:44 AM | #483 |
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9th August 2016, 05:55 AM | #484 |
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Facetious as that may be, there's an underlying truth to it.
When I was in one of the military academies, the coursework was influenced (as you'd expect) by military matters. They tried to work in "real world" situations. I remember in probability & stats having a word problem about so many planes being sent out with a certain probability they'd be shot down and the expected damage those planes would do to the enemy. Some kind of mini-max problem. The reason I recall it was because, at the time, I got a kind of wake-up moment when I realized the hypothetical was talking about actual human lives and evaluating the costs. So yeah, as uncomfortable as it makes us, those kinds of calculations are happening, overtly or covertly. |
9th August 2016, 06:00 AM | #485 |
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Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin |
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9th August 2016, 06:00 AM | #486 |
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9th August 2016, 06:05 AM | #487 |
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Pretty much.
The calculation is easy at the end points (zero and infinite) but otherwise not. Thankfully, we do this kind of calculation all the time. How many innocent deaths are acceptable with the death penalty? How many medical errors are acceptable? How many can I kill with treatment A instead of B and still use treatment A? How many lives is the price of a cheaper car worth? On and on... |
9th August 2016, 06:09 AM | #488 |
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“If only it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?” Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, The Gulag Archipelago |
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9th August 2016, 06:15 AM | #489 |
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We sometimes try to dodge it by saying, "As few as possible" without really saying what's possible.
There are ways to test such things though. In some jurisdictions they quit chasing cars under certain circumstances with the idea that the safety hazards (both to the pursuing officers and the public at large) were too great. How did that work out? Here we have a test of what happens with a clear policy change and presumably, a measurable outcome (traffic accidents during a pursuit measured against whatever the perp got up to by getting away). |
9th August 2016, 07:54 AM | #490 |
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I wasn't arguing anything. I was pointing out that efforts by cop groupies to justify the egregious violent behavior of out-of-control cops is based on a fallacious assumption, that the occupation is somehow uniquely dangerous. It isn't. It's barely average for blue collar jobs. If you have a problem with that you need to take it up with the apologists who incessantly use that fallacy as an excuse. |
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9th August 2016, 08:18 AM | #491 |
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Beyond that, we can also look at the historical difference, differences between jurisdictions where policies vary, and difference between similar policing in other countries where policies vary even more. Nothing anywhere indicates that the prioritizing of law enforcement lives over innocent civilian lives makes a statistically-significant difference. If anything, it devalues the lives of both civilians and law enforcement officers in the eyes of many, as it takes LEOs out of the role of public servant and fellow citizen, and puts them in the role of "jack-booted thugs", as tools of an oppressive government, who act more as an occupying army than a member of the community (an attitude actually encouraged by much of LE culture since the late 70s). Thanks to the cultural barriers that have been erected, the abuse of laws such as civil forfeiture, and rampant unaddressed corruption, comparisons of LEOs to street gangs is not inapt in far too many cases. |
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9th August 2016, 09:06 AM | #492 |
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How many deaths/injuries are caused by cops looking at the laptop in their car instead of driving safely?
We have places with laws against texting and driving, but cops are driving while their looking at their laptops, and are getting in accidents as a result. It is a problem that has gained some attention. |
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9th August 2016, 02:47 PM | #493 |
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9th August 2016, 04:27 PM | #494 |
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"A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep." "Ninety percent of the politicians give the other ten percent a bad reputation." |
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9th August 2016, 06:03 PM | #495 |
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9th August 2016, 06:25 PM | #496 |
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According to the police officer's union rep, the intended target of the officer's rifle was Rinaldo, the patient that the shooting victim was trying to protect. Either everyone knows the union rep was lying his ass off when claiming that Rinaldo was the target, or there should be another lawsuit; this one from the guardians of Rinaldo.
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9th August 2016, 06:43 PM | #497 |
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Not that anything like this would ever happen, but if one of the other cops had opened fire on Officer Aledda after he tried to kill an unarmed, non-aggressive man for absolutely no good reason, would that have been a clean shoot?
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9th August 2016, 06:57 PM | #498 |
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9th August 2016, 08:36 PM | #499 |
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"A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep." "Ninety percent of the politicians give the other ten percent a bad reputation." |
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10th August 2016, 03:11 AM | #500 |
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10th August 2016, 03:12 AM | #501 |
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10th August 2016, 03:39 AM | #502 |
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I got done for having a sticker on my windscreen (that not having on the windscreen would get me fined in my home state)
The excuse given to me was that was obscuring my vision... Says the cop who had FIVE different devices suction capped to his windscreen, plus two mounts on arms on the dash- you literally can't see into the car because of all the crap mounted in his field of vision.... Do as I say, not as I do I'm lost all respect for them years ago, our local cops were the biggest drug dealers in town :-( |
10th August 2016, 10:19 AM | #503 |
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24th October 2016, 12:29 PM | #504 |
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Looks like this was a legit shoot as I can find nothing about the police disciplining the officer or charging him. Too bad he missed the tard with the truck I guess.
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24th October 2016, 12:36 PM | #505 |
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"A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep." "Ninety percent of the politicians give the other ten percent a bad reputation." |
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16th April 2017, 10:01 AM | #506 |
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So Aledda has been charged with manslaughter. The union is standing up for him by repeating the story that Aledda was actually trying to kill the unarmed disabled guy rather than the unarmed therapist.
http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/...rapist-n745716 |
16th April 2017, 10:54 AM | #507 |
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I'm not sure that it matters much who he was trying to shoot. The S.A.s statement included this: "Officer Aledda was not in a position to correctly assess the situation or in a position to accurately fire. It was one of Officer Aledda's shots which struck Charles Kinsey,"His actions were reckless regardless of who he was trying to hit, and it is that recklessness which comprises the core of the charge of attempted manslaughter being pursued against him. |
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16th April 2017, 09:32 PM | #508 |
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That would be merely attempted manslaughter.
Quote:
Quote:
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16th April 2017, 09:44 PM | #509 |
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Oops. Thanks for the correction.
Admittedly I'm not inclined to be sympathetic to Aledda's actions, but I never really understood how "I was trying to shoot the other harmless guy" was much of a defense. It's like a thief saying that he was trying to rob that other bank across the street and got the address mixed up. |
17th April 2017, 03:31 AM | #510 |
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25th June 2019, 05:27 PM | #511 |
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https://miami.cbslocal.com/2019/06/1...ledda-retrial/
First a hung jury then later a conviction for culpable negligence; a misdemeanor. He can still be a police officer and own a gun as far as I know. I hope he is fired. According to some of the testimony I listened to online, Aledda claimed he was saving Kinsey from a hostage taker (Soto) by shooting right away even after the police were told there was no gun. |
25th June 2019, 06:15 PM | #512 |
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I think it's entirely possible that the shooting was accidental, a consequence of nerves and stupidity. The thing is that those are indicators he shouldn't be allowed to serve in a profession where one will absolutely be put into a position to decide whether or not to use deadly force. If he can't keep it in his pants in daylight while surrounded by backup, what's going to happen when he's alone at night on patrol?
Any police force that puts this guy on the street with a gun needs some management changes. |
26th June 2019, 12:01 AM | #513 |
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That is not how it works when someone else is the shooter. According to the victim, Aledda said he didn't know why he shot him. The rifles police use (mainly ar-15's) do not just go off. Aledda had to load, aim and pull the trigger for anyone to be shot. Calling it an accident is just another way to excuse violent behavior.
The best I can say about it was that Aledda was negligent. This kind of negligence with a rifle should mean jail time and a felony conviction. |
26th June 2019, 06:20 AM | #514 |
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26th June 2019, 08:53 AM | #515 |
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26th June 2019, 09:30 AM | #516 |
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As a former cop in BC I can tell you for a fact that there is no reason to not pull over to the side of the road to use your computer or phone. Your radio is good enough for any necessary information while you are in a hurry.
Exempting police - who are no more able to multitask phones and other electronic devices than the average citizen - is just kowtowing to the perceived perception that the police are somehow superior to the average Joe. |
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26th June 2019, 01:47 PM | #517 |
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26th June 2019, 05:05 PM | #518 |
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27th June 2019, 03:03 AM | #519 |
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Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin |
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17th February 2022, 08:55 AM | #520 |
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https://www.cbsnews.com/amp/news/flo...-autistic-man/
Quote:
https://safe.menlosecurity.com/doc/d...5fc35fbb26a3fb
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Maybe with a new trial the state can hold the officer accountable for the shots fired as well as his attempt at killing Kinsey. |
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