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Tags Charles Kinsey , Jonathan Aledda , police misconduct charges , police shootings , racial incidents , racism charges

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Old 9th August 2016, 05:37 AM   #481
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Originally Posted by marplots View Post
If what they are doing now is keeping them out of the top ten, then why would they stop doing it? You've constructed an argument for the status quo.
You'd have to demonstrate that first of all. It could also be that changing what they are doing now could make them safer.
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Old 9th August 2016, 05:43 AM   #482
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Originally Posted by marplots View Post
If what they are doing now is keeping them out of the top ten, then why would they stop doing it? You've constructed an argument for the status quo.
Originally Posted by Cl1mh4224rd View Post
Unsupported premise.
It's an assumption underlying both sides of the argument. If what they are doing now has no effect on safety, then mentioning safety is moot. You can't argue that cops are safer than they would be in construction if "being a cop" and doing whatever it is a cop does, doesn't intersect with safety.

To torture the point - if a construction worker stopped doing what it is they do and started doing exclusively stuff cops do, then we would expect their risk to go down. You can't disconnect the defining characteristics of the job (what they do) from the job title and the category you are measuring.

What you probably want to say is that cops could do the same job differently and still be as safe (or safer), but that too requires a link between what they do and how safe they are.
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Old 9th August 2016, 05:44 AM   #483
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Originally Posted by marplots View Post
It's an assumption underlying both sides of the argument. If what they are doing now has no effect on safety, then mentioning safety is moot. You can't argue that cops are safer than they would be in construction if "being a cop" and doing whatever it is a cop does, doesn't intersect with safety.

To torture the point - if a construction worker stopped doing what it is they do and started doing exclusively stuff cops do, then we would expect their risk to go down. You can't disconnect the defining characteristics of the job (what they do) from the job title and the category you are measuring.

What you probably want to say is that cops could do the same job differently and still be as safe (or safer), but that too requires a link between what they do and how safe they are.
And no one really cares how often they kill a tard with a toy truck, those people don't matter at all compared to how much a blue life does.
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Old 9th August 2016, 05:55 AM   #484
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
And the harm they inflict on innocent people doesn't matter to anyone because blue lives matter way more than some worthless black therapist. The cop who shot him is clearly worth at least 10 innocent bystanders dead.
Facetious as that may be, there's an underlying truth to it.

When I was in one of the military academies, the coursework was influenced (as you'd expect) by military matters. They tried to work in "real world" situations.

I remember in probability & stats having a word problem about so many planes being sent out with a certain probability they'd be shot down and the expected damage those planes would do to the enemy. Some kind of mini-max problem.

The reason I recall it was because, at the time, I got a kind of wake-up moment when I realized the hypothetical was talking about actual human lives and evaluating the costs. So yeah, as uncomfortable as it makes us, those kinds of calculations are happening, overtly or covertly.
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Old 9th August 2016, 06:00 AM   #485
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Originally Posted by marplots View Post
Facetious as that may be, there's an underlying truth to it.

When I was in one of the military academies, the coursework was influenced (as you'd expect) by military matters. They tried to work in "real world" situations.

I remember in probability & stats having a word problem about so many planes being sent out with a certain probability they'd be shot down and the expected damage those planes would do to the enemy. Some kind of mini-max problem.

The reason I recall it was because, at the time, I got a kind of wake-up moment when I realized the hypothetical was talking about actual human lives and evaluating the costs. So yeah, as uncomfortable as it makes us, those kinds of calculations are happening, overtly or covertly.
So we need to determine exactly how many innocent lives a cop is worth.
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Old 9th August 2016, 06:00 AM   #486
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
And no one really cares how often they kill a tard with a toy truck, those people don't matter at all compared to how much a blue life does.
It's even worse than that. No one seems to care how many construction workers will be killed in service of us having new buildings to live and work in. I know they say they care, but look at the stats.
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Old 9th August 2016, 06:05 AM   #487
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
So we need to determine exactly how many innocent lives a cop is worth.
Pretty much.
The calculation is easy at the end points (zero and infinite) but otherwise not.

Thankfully, we do this kind of calculation all the time. How many innocent deaths are acceptable with the death penalty? How many medical errors are acceptable? How many can I kill with treatment A instead of B and still use treatment A? How many lives is the price of a cheaper car worth? On and on...
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Old 9th August 2016, 06:09 AM   #488
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
So we need to determine exactly how many innocent lives a cop is worth.
Yes. Quite serious that is the question we do have to ask.
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Old 9th August 2016, 06:15 AM   #489
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Yes. Quite serious that is the question we do have to ask.
We sometimes try to dodge it by saying, "As few as possible" without really saying what's possible.

There are ways to test such things though. In some jurisdictions they quit chasing cars under certain circumstances with the idea that the safety hazards (both to the pursuing officers and the public at large) were too great.

How did that work out? Here we have a test of what happens with a clear policy change and presumably, a measurable outcome (traffic accidents during a pursuit measured against whatever the perp got up to by getting away).
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Old 9th August 2016, 07:54 AM   #490
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Originally Posted by marplots View Post
If what they are doing now is keeping them out of the top ten, then why would they stop doing it? You've constructed an argument for the status quo.

I wasn't arguing anything.

I was pointing out that efforts by cop groupies to justify the egregious violent behavior of out-of-control cops is based on a fallacious assumption, that the occupation is somehow uniquely dangerous.

It isn't. It's barely average for blue collar jobs.

If you have a problem with that you need to take it up with the apologists who incessantly use that fallacy as an excuse.
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Old 9th August 2016, 08:18 AM   #491
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Originally Posted by marplots View Post
If what they are doing now is keeping them out of the top ten, then why would they stop doing it? You've constructed an argument for the status quo.
Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
I was pointing out that efforts by cop groupies to justify the egregious violent behavior of out-of-control cops is based on a fallacious assumption, that the occupation is somehow uniquely dangerous.

It isn't. It's barely average for blue collar jobs.

Beyond that, we can also look at the historical difference, differences between jurisdictions where policies vary, and difference between similar policing in other countries where policies vary even more.

Nothing anywhere indicates that the prioritizing of law enforcement lives over innocent civilian lives makes a statistically-significant difference. If anything, it devalues the lives of both civilians and law enforcement officers in the eyes of many, as it takes LEOs out of the role of public servant and fellow citizen, and puts them in the role of "jack-booted thugs", as tools of an oppressive government, who act more as an occupying army than a member of the community (an attitude actually encouraged by much of LE culture since the late 70s). Thanks to the cultural barriers that have been erected, the abuse of laws such as civil forfeiture, and rampant unaddressed corruption, comparisons of LEOs to street gangs is not inapt in far too many cases.
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Old 9th August 2016, 09:06 AM   #492
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How many deaths/injuries are caused by cops looking at the laptop in their car instead of driving safely?

We have places with laws against texting and driving, but cops are driving while their looking at their laptops, and are getting in accidents as a result.

It is a problem that has gained some attention.
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Old 9th August 2016, 02:47 PM   #493
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
How many deaths/injuries are caused by cops looking at the laptop in their car instead of driving safely?

We have places with laws against texting and driving, but cops are driving while their looking at their laptops, and are getting in accidents as a result.

It is a problem that has gained some attention.
Cops are usually exempt from distracted driving laws for pretty good reason.
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Old 9th August 2016, 04:27 PM   #494
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Originally Posted by qayak View Post
Cops are usually exempt from distracted driving laws for pretty good reason.

What reason is that?
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Old 9th August 2016, 06:03 PM   #495
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
What reason is that?
They often have to be in contact while en route to a scene. In BC we have distracted driving laws. They do not apply to first responders in the performance of their duty. They can talk on a radio or cellphone, I cannot.

Quote:
Exceptions to prohibition — emergency personnel

214.3 Section 214.2 does not apply to the following persons who use an electronic device while carrying out their powers, duties or functions:

(a) a peace officer;

(b) a person driving or operating an ambulance as defined in the Emergency Health Services Act;

(c) fire services personnel as defined in the Fire Services Act.
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Old 9th August 2016, 06:25 PM   #496
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According to the police officer's union rep, the intended target of the officer's rifle was Rinaldo, the patient that the shooting victim was trying to protect. Either everyone knows the union rep was lying his ass off when claiming that Rinaldo was the target, or there should be another lawsuit; this one from the guardians of Rinaldo.
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Old 9th August 2016, 06:43 PM   #497
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Not that anything like this would ever happen, but if one of the other cops had opened fire on Officer Aledda after he tried to kill an unarmed, non-aggressive man for absolutely no good reason, would that have been a clean shoot?
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Old 9th August 2016, 06:57 PM   #498
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
So we need to determine exactly how many innocent lives a cop is worth.
No. we need to determine how many traffic accidents a cop has for every person he doesn't shoot.
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Old 9th August 2016, 08:36 PM   #499
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Originally Posted by qayak View Post
They often have to be in contact while en route to a scene. In BC we have distracted driving laws. They do not apply to first responders in the performance of their duty. They can talk on a radio or cellphone, I cannot.

Talking on the radio while driving is not the equivalent of using their laptops while driving.

Are they absolved of fault if they cause an accident while doing that?
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Old 10th August 2016, 03:11 AM   #500
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
What reason is that?
They have a badge and other cops will not charge them.
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Old 10th August 2016, 03:12 AM   #501
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Originally Posted by Civet View Post
Not that anything like this would ever happen, but if one of the other cops had opened fire on Officer Aledda after he tried to kill an unarmed, non-aggressive man for absolutely no good reason, would that have been a clean shoot?
Was it recorded on video or just observed by other cops?
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Old 10th August 2016, 03:39 AM   #502
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
Talking on the radio while driving is not the equivalent of using their laptops while driving.

Are they absolved of fault if they cause an accident while doing that?
I got done for having a sticker on my windscreen (that not having on the windscreen would get me fined in my home state)
The excuse given to me was that was obscuring my vision...
Says the cop who had FIVE different devices suction capped to his windscreen, plus two mounts on arms on the dash- you literally can't see into the car because of all the crap mounted in his field of vision....

Do as I say, not as I do

I'm lost all respect for them years ago, our local cops were the biggest drug dealers in town

:-(
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Old 10th August 2016, 10:19 AM   #503
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
Talking on the radio while driving is not the equivalent of using their laptops while driving.

Are they absolved of fault if they cause an accident while doing that?
Probably not but it isn't illegal for them while it is for every other driver in BC. Of course they can also pack guns, tazers and mace which I also can't do.
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Old 24th October 2016, 12:29 PM   #504
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Looks like this was a legit shoot as I can find nothing about the police disciplining the officer or charging him. Too bad he missed the tard with the truck I guess.
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Old 24th October 2016, 12:36 PM   #505
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Originally Posted by Dabop View Post
<snip>

I'm lost all respect for them years ago, our local cops were the biggest drug dealers in town

:-(

A lesson which should have been learned by that other Prohibition, but seems to have been forgotten.

Conservative War-On-Crime policy is predicated on the idea that if what you are doing doesn't work then you aren't doing enough of it.

In other words, "Keep digging."
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Old 16th April 2017, 10:01 AM   #506
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So Aledda has been charged with manslaughter. The union is standing up for him by repeating the story that Aledda was actually trying to kill the unarmed disabled guy rather than the unarmed therapist.

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/...rapist-n745716
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Old 16th April 2017, 10:54 AM   #507
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Originally Posted by Civet View Post
So Aledda has been charged with manslaughter. The union is standing up for him by repeating the story that Aledda was actually trying to kill the unarmed disabled guy rather than the unarmed therapist.

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/...rapist-n745716

I'm not sure that it matters much who he was trying to shoot.

The S.A.s statement included this:
"Officer Aledda was not in a position to correctly assess the situation or in a position to accurately fire. It was one of Officer Aledda's shots which struck Charles Kinsey,"


His actions were reckless regardless of who he was trying to hit, and it is that recklessness which comprises the core of the charge of attempted manslaughter being pursued against him.
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Old 16th April 2017, 09:32 PM   #508
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Originally Posted by Civet View Post
So Aledda has been charged with manslaughter. The union is standing up for him by repeating the story that Aledda was actually trying to kill the unarmed disabled guy rather than the unarmed therapist.

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/...rapist-n745716
That would be merely attempted manslaughter.
Quote:
In addition to attempted manslaughter in the third degree, North Miami Police Officer Jonathan Aledda was also charged with culpable negligence, a first-degree misdemeanor, for the shooting of behavioral therapist Charles Kinsey in July.
Sounds like this is going to aid the wounded man's lawsuit greatly.

Quote:
"In this case, we're going to be able to show how politically motivated, vindictive and incompetent that the state attorney is," Miami-Dade Police Benevolent Association President John Rivera told the Miami Herald. "The law is a very simple thing — intent. They're never going to be able to prove that this guy acted maliciously or recklessly in any way."

Rivera also claimed that Aledda was actually trying to fire at the autistic man, who he believed was armed a danger to Kinsey.
If I was the lawyer defending Aledda I'd be bitch slapping Rivera from here to eternity. Aledda seems to be the picture perfect definition of reckless. Next thing we know River might be blaming the victim that was shot.
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Old 16th April 2017, 09:44 PM   #509
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
That would be merely attempted manslaughter.

Sounds like this is going to aid the wounded man's lawsuit greatly.
Oops. Thanks for the correction.


Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
If I was the lawyer defending Aledda I'd be bitch slapping Rivera from here to eternity. Aledda seems to be the picture perfect definition of reckless. Next thing we know River might be blaming the victim that was shot.
Admittedly I'm not inclined to be sympathetic to Aledda's actions, but I never really understood how "I was trying to shoot the other harmless guy" was much of a defense. It's like a thief saying that he was trying to rob that other bank across the street and got the address mixed up.
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Old 17th April 2017, 03:31 AM   #510
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Originally Posted by Civet View Post
So Aledda has been charged with manslaughter. The union is standing up for him by repeating the story that Aledda was actually trying to kill the unarmed disabled guy rather than the unarmed therapist.

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/...rapist-n745716
Weird I thought the local DA who has never charged a police officer with anything involving a shooting already decided not to file charges. I thought that it would end there.
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Old 25th June 2019, 05:27 PM   #511
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https://miami.cbslocal.com/2019/06/1...ledda-retrial/

First a hung jury then later a conviction for culpable negligence; a misdemeanor. He can still be a police officer and own a gun as far as I know. I hope he is fired.

According to some of the testimony I listened to online, Aledda claimed he was saving Kinsey from a hostage taker (Soto) by shooting right away even after the police were told there was no gun.
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Old 25th June 2019, 06:15 PM   #512
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
https://miami.cbslocal.com/2019/06/1...ledda-retrial/

First a hung jury then later a conviction for culpable negligence; a misdemeanor. He can still be a police officer and own a gun as far as I know. I hope he is fired.

According to some of the testimony I listened to online, Aledda claimed he was saving Kinsey from a hostage taker (Soto) by shooting right away even after the police were told there was no gun.
I think it's entirely possible that the shooting was accidental, a consequence of nerves and stupidity. The thing is that those are indicators he shouldn't be allowed to serve in a profession where one will absolutely be put into a position to decide whether or not to use deadly force. If he can't keep it in his pants in daylight while surrounded by backup, what's going to happen when he's alone at night on patrol?

Any police force that puts this guy on the street with a gun needs some management changes.
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Old 26th June 2019, 12:01 AM   #513
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That is not how it works when someone else is the shooter. According to the victim, Aledda said he didn't know why he shot him. The rifles police use (mainly ar-15's) do not just go off. Aledda had to load, aim and pull the trigger for anyone to be shot. Calling it an accident is just another way to excuse violent behavior.

The best I can say about it was that Aledda was negligent. This kind of negligence with a rifle should mean jail time and a felony conviction.
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Old 26th June 2019, 06:20 AM   #514
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Originally Posted by Babbylonian View Post
I think it's entirely possible that the shooting was accidental, a consequence of nerves and stupidity. The thing is that those are indicators he shouldn't be allowed to serve in a profession where one will absolutely be put into a position to decide whether or not to use deadly force. If he can't keep it in his pants in daylight while surrounded by backup, what's going to happen when he's alone at night on patrol?

Any police force that puts this guy on the street with a gun needs some management changes.
Can't accept in a matter like this that you can say is was an accident based on nerves and stupidity. That's not an accident, that's an inevitability!
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Old 26th June 2019, 08:53 AM   #515
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
That is not how it works when someone else is the shooter. According to the victim, Aledda said he didn't know why he shot him. The rifles police use (mainly ar-15's) do not just go off. Aledda had to load, aim and pull the trigger for anyone to be shot. Calling it an accident is just another way to excuse violent behavior.

The best I can say about it was that Aledda was negligent. This kind of negligence with a rifle should mean jail time and a felony conviction.
It's too late for that and, yes, accidents with guns that harm others should always be felonies.

Also, the reason I could accept it was an accident is the apparent inability to come close to correctly aiming the rifle.

Last edited by Babbylonian; 26th June 2019 at 08:55 AM.
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Old 26th June 2019, 09:30 AM   #516
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Originally Posted by qayak View Post
They often have to be in contact choose to be in contact while en route to a scene. In BC we have distracted driving laws. They do not apply to first responders in the performance of their duty. They can talk on a radio or cellphone, I cannot.
As a former cop in BC I can tell you for a fact that there is no reason to not pull over to the side of the road to use your computer or phone. Your radio is good enough for any necessary information while you are in a hurry.
Exempting police - who are no more able to multitask phones and other electronic devices than the average citizen - is just kowtowing to the perceived perception that the police are somehow superior to the average Joe.
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Old 26th June 2019, 01:47 PM   #517
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Originally Posted by rockinkt View Post
As a former cop in BC I can tell you for a fact that there is no reason to not pull over to the side of the road to use your computer or phone. Your radio is good enough for any necessary information while you are in a hurry.
Exempting police - who are no more able to multitask phones and other electronic devices than the average citizen - is just kowtowing to the perceived perception that the police are somehow superior to the average Joe.

Is a hands-free phone with voice dialing really all that much different from their radio?
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Old 26th June 2019, 05:05 PM   #518
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Originally Posted by Babbylonian View Post
Also, the reason I could accept it was an accident is the apparent inability to come close to correctly aiming the rifle.
Aledda testified that he purposely discharged his rifle towards Soto but instead shot Kinsey. Not an accident as I define the word. It seems no one else at the scene thought shooting anyone was the appropriate thing to do.
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Old 27th June 2019, 03:03 AM   #519
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
Aledda testified that he purposely discharged his rifle towards Soto but instead shot Kinsey. Not an accident as I define the word. It seems no one else at the scene thought shooting anyone was the appropriate thing to do.
At least they all knew to arrest the innocent victim, so they could still follow SOP.
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Old 17th February 2022, 08:55 AM   #520
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https://www.cbsnews.com/amp/news/flo...-autistic-man/

Quote:
A Florida appeals court has overturned the conviction of a former North Miami police officer convicted of culpable negligence after he shot at an unarmed autistic man carrying a toy truck and wounded his caretaker.


https://safe.menlosecurity.com/doc/d...5fc35fbb26a3fb

Quote:
Under the facts and circumstances of this case, we conclude that precluding Rivera’s testimony constituted reversible error, and that Aledda should be afforded a new trial.
Police officer shows up at scene, "thinks" the autistic man is threatening someone, so he shoots the black guy.

Maybe with a new trial the state can hold the officer accountable for the shots fired as well as his attempt at killing Kinsey.
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