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Tags Charles Kinsey , Jonathan Aledda , police misconduct charges , police shootings , racial incidents , racism charges

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Old 21st July 2016, 07:31 AM   #81
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Originally Posted by NoahFence View Post
As soon as you wipe the spittle off of your keyboard, please note I said "everybody".

That includes the police.
I stand corrected. However, the police need to take a lot more chill pills.
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Old 21st July 2016, 07:35 AM   #82
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Originally Posted by Hlafordlaes View Post
Quite obviously addressed to participants in the thread. Doesn't work grammatically to refer to the case itself.
No. Addressed to everyone in the country, but this little slice of it will have to do for now.
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Old 21st July 2016, 07:45 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by Jrrarglblarg View Post
I don't think that means what you think it means.
That was sarcastic in case your detector is broken.
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Old 21st July 2016, 08:05 AM   #84
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If it was an ND why were they even aiming at the guy trying to talk down the suicidal man? Why cuff him after he was shot? Why cuff him at the hospital when they knew for a fact he was unarmed? What possible crime could he have been suspected of?

OK, this one is boggling my mind. I can't see any plausible explanation for the police behaviour. It must surely have been an accident - but then why treat the victim as a criminal for hours? Were the cops just trying to cover themselves and see if they could trump up some charge to throw at the victim? Did they think he was an accomplice of the truck armed man? Seriously, I have no idea how this could have happened. The whole thing is surreal.
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Old 21st July 2016, 08:08 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
Has anyone in this thread thus far indicated that he/she thinks the victim deserved to be shot?
The victim has to understand, the attack in Nice has everyone on edge. The police had no way of knowing whether or not that was a toy truck or a real one.
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Old 21st July 2016, 08:13 AM   #86
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Originally Posted by Nakani View Post
The victim has to understand, the attack in Nice has everyone on edge. The police had no way of knowing whether or not that was a toy truck or a real one.
Maybe they thought it was real and just really, really far away?
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Old 21st July 2016, 08:15 AM   #87
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
I will wait until they start reporting on any previous run in's with the police he had.
Or photos where he gestures at something, or encounters that someone who "looks like him" had with the cops. Those are also very important in the "apologist for black people getting shot without reason" handbook.

Also, expect "what about black-on-black crime?" to hit as soon as conservative media notice this. I think they're too busy planning to tear Ted Cruz apart for now, though.
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Old 21st July 2016, 08:20 AM   #88
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Originally Posted by erlando View Post
That was sarcastic in case your detector is broken.
You said something with no indicators, something said in total seriousness by others on this very forum, and expect others to magically know you're "sarcastic."

Sorry, I don't keep a scorecard précis of everyone's various positions on various topics.
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Old 21st July 2016, 08:24 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by Carnivore View Post
If it was an ND why were they even aiming at the guy trying to talk down the suicidal man? Why cuff him after he was shot? Why cuff him at the hospital when they knew for a fact he was unarmed? What possible crime could he have been suspected of?
Two things:
  1. He was laying on the ground with his hands in the air. Clearly, he was resisting arrest.
  2. The police shot him. He obviously cops only shoot criminals, so there.
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Old 21st July 2016, 08:33 AM   #90
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I can actually understand cuffing him. People often react angrily and violently when someone shoots them (imagine that).

The rest just boggles my mind. A 20 minute wait for medical care? What, did they call their union reps before the EMTs?
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Old 21st July 2016, 08:34 AM   #91
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Originally Posted by Jrrarglblarg View Post
You said something with no indicators, something said in total seriousness by others on this very forum, and expect others to magically know you're "sarcastic."

Sorry, I don't keep a scorecard précis of everyone's various positions on various topics.
You can't seriously think that "Police militarization for the win" is a serious position to hold?
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Old 21st July 2016, 08:35 AM   #92
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Originally Posted by TheGoldcountry View Post
I can actually understand cuffing him. People often react angrily and violently when someone shoots them (imagine that).

The rest just boggles my mind. A 20 minute wait for medical care? What, did they call their union reps before the EMTs?
The 20 minute wait was for an arrest squad not medical care. He was taken to hospital from jail, not the scene. Furthermore he was placed face-down on the ground for that 20 minute wait.

They could at least have placed him sitting up or tried to make him comfortable. It almost seems like interactions with police in the US has to be made as painful as possible for members of the public.
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Last edited by erlando; 21st July 2016 at 08:40 AM.
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Old 21st July 2016, 08:37 AM   #93
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Originally Posted by erlando View Post
The 20 minute wait was for an arrest squad not medical care. He was taken to hospital from jail, not the scene.
Sorry I missed that. That makes it more ridiculous, in my view.
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Old 21st July 2016, 08:42 AM   #94
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
Two things:
  1. He was laying on the ground with his hands in the air. Clearly, he was resisting arrest.
  2. The police shot him. He obviously cops only shoot criminals, so there.
Exactly face up. HE should have been face down with his fingers interlaced over his head if he didn't want to be shot.
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Old 21st July 2016, 08:45 AM   #95
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Originally Posted by TheGoldcountry View Post
I can actually understand cuffing him. People often react angrily and violently when someone shoots them (imagine that).
Is there any evidence that he actually did so, though? If not, it's an even worse indictment of the attitudes of the police that their response to needlessly shooting an innocent man is to automatically treat him as a violent criminal.

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Old 21st July 2016, 08:46 AM   #96
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I realize cops have a hard and dangerous job, and all that.

But having seen the picture, I find it truly impossible to figure out any explanation that suggests even in the faintest way that the shooting was appropriate. The suggestion that we armchair commentators are not qualified to judge the shooting of a man who is on his back, with his hands in the air, suggests that nobody should be qualified to criticize anything about anything at all, if some authoritarian says it's right.

Sure, the cuffing could be justified insofar as it would be unseemly for a person who had just been wrongly shot for doing exactly exactly precisely and unequivocally the only possible thing he could do to prevent being shot except for changing his skin color to be angry!

I can still understand how such accidents can happen, but I really think that if this incident is dealt with in the way other such incidents have, with a wrist slap for the cop and no charges, it will be a bloody mistake.
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Old 21st July 2016, 08:48 AM   #97
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
I realize cops have a hard and dangerous job, and all that.

But having seen the picture, I find it truly impossible to figure out any explanation that suggests even in the faintest way that the shooting was appropriate. The suggestion that we armchair commentators are not qualified to judge the shooting of a man who is on his back, with his hands in the air, suggests that nobody should be qualified to criticize anything about anything at all, if some authoritarian says it's right.

Sure, the cuffing could be justified insofar as it would be unseemly for a person who had just been wrongly shot for doing exactly exactly precisely and unequivocally the only possible thing he could do to prevent being shot except for changing his skin color to be angry!

I can still understand how such accidents can happen, but I really think that if this incident is dealt with in the way other such incidents have, with a wrist slap for the cop and no charges, it will be a bloody mistake.
And now you are trying to ruin a mans career for one little mistake.
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Old 21st July 2016, 08:52 AM   #98
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Originally Posted by Hungry81 View Post
Thankfully I already live there; Australia.
I've dealt with many cops for various reasons, and never even had a gun pulled on me or any other person that was present, although a cop did once pull out his capsicum spray and actually threatened to use it on an unruly assailant.

Two of my friends are cops for many years and so is my brother in law. None of them have shot anyone. I know one of them has had to draw his gun at least once but never fired it out of the range.

Anyway enough anecdotes, cool story bro and all that.


And here in Canada as well. A few months back, I was at my local pub when a disturbed guy came in, claiming to have a shotgun in his jacket (This was the after affects of a fight that had happened earlier). I and one of the managers talked him into leaving without pulling the weapon, and he was met in the parking lot by the police the other staff had called. The cops took him down, and found out he wasn't actually carrying a gun, but did it all without shooting, or even threatening to shoot anyone.
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Old 21st July 2016, 08:53 AM   #99
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Sickening. But defenders of this assault will turn up.....
I have defended cop shootings .. There is NO EXCUSE in this case .. Complete compliance.

The only fault (obviously beside "I Don't Know" trigger happy idiot) ... is the person who called in and falsely reported a firearm being present.

I'd like to see them in an interview
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Old 21st July 2016, 08:55 AM   #100
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As I said before .. I'm quite sure police did not want shoot the black man. If they were intentionally shooting at anyone, it was the man with autism, who clearly disobeyed anything police said, and had an object in his hands.
If the gun was in burst mode, then it simply was negligent discharge. If it was not, then it was very poor shooting.

As for handcuffs .. my friend was once not let into USA on the airport, cause he had wrong type of visa. They told him that have to detain him until next plane flies, and he had to be handcuffed all the time he was transported (walked and taken by the car) to the detainment room, which basically was a overnight jail. The cop straight out apologized for that and said that sadly it's regulation, and that he can't walk or take anyone into car without handcuffs.

So I wouldn't find it surprising if they were to handcuff even wounded persons, especially if the person is wounded lightly.

That doesn't mean I don't find it ridiculous.

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Old 21st July 2016, 08:55 AM   #101
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Originally Posted by Aepervius View Post
Nan, I think it was just an accident, he was already nervous with finger on trigger, and he accidentally added a few pound more ...
Was it an Auto fire rifle?
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Old 21st July 2016, 08:56 AM   #102
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Originally Posted by Horatius View Post
And here in Canada as well. A few months back, I was at my local pub when a disturbed guy came in, claiming to have a shotgun in his jacket (This was the after affects of a fight that had happened earlier). I and one of the managers talked him into leaving without pulling the weapon, and he was met in the parking lot by the police the other staff had called. The cops took him down, and found out he wasn't actually carrying a gun, but did it all without shooting, or even threatening to shoot anyone.
Or here in the UK. Once while walking in the country I met a police officer on his way to investigate a report that some kids were playing with a gun in the woods nearby. I asked him whether he had one himself, and he said, "No. The day I have to carry a gun is the day I jack this job in."

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Old 21st July 2016, 08:57 AM   #103
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Originally Posted by Carnivore View Post
Were the cops just trying to cover themselves and see if they could trump up some charge to throw at the victim?
Based on what we know so far, probably this. The video negated any chance they had at doing that.
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Old 21st July 2016, 08:57 AM   #104
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Originally Posted by Dr.Sid View Post
As I said before .. I'm quite sure police did not want shoot the black man. If they were intentionally shooting at anyone, it was the man with autism, who clearly disobeyed anything police said, and had an object in his hands.
Which, for those of us with a close relative who suffers from said developmental disorder, is not exactly reassuring either.

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Old 21st July 2016, 08:58 AM   #105
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Originally Posted by Dr.Sid View Post
As I said before .. I'm quite sure police did not want shoot the black man. If they were intentionally shooting at anyone, it was the man with autism, who clearly disobeyed anything police said, and had an object in his hands.
If the gun was in burst mode, that it simply was negligent discharge. If it was not, then it was very poor shooting.

As for handcuffs .. my friend was once not let into USA on the airport, cause he had wrong type of visa. They told him that have to detain him until next plane flies, and he had to be handcuffed all the time he was transported (walked and taken by the car) to the detainment room, which basically was a overnight jail. The cop straight out apologized for that and said that sadly it's regulation, and that he can't walk or take anyone into car without handcuffs.

So I wouldn't find it surprising if they were to handcuff even wounded persons, especially if the person is wounded lightly.

That doesn't mean I don't find it ridiculous.
I find it hard to believe that it is the departments policy to handcuff and then take to jail (before the hospital) a person who was shot for no clearly discernible reason. If it is then it needs to be changed right now.
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Old 21st July 2016, 08:58 AM   #106
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Originally Posted by robertovila View Post
... He lost his job and actually served time for negligent discharge of a firearm within city limits. ..
Well that seems like the right thing to do ... and maybe a lifetime firearms ban
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Old 21st July 2016, 08:58 AM   #107
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Criticizing the police for actions like this clearly feeds into the narrative of those who are angry and want to kill cops. That is why filming police needs to be made the level of crime it is based on how detrimental it is to public perceptions of police competence.
No, shooting an innocent guy feeds that narrative. At the moment it looks more like a cock up than any intentional effort. A single cop with safety off, finger on trigger and rate set to burst.

If it was just damage to property then a disciplinary, retraining and a poor record on his books. Except an innocent guy got shot. Not just that, but a black innocent guy, clearly showing that he was unarmed, was explaining the situation, and trying to de-escalate things got shot. I can't think of a way of compounding this cluster even further short of the cop killing him. The cop will be lucky if he doesn't face attempted manslaughter charges.

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Old 21st July 2016, 08:59 AM   #108
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Originally Posted by Dr.Sid View Post
So I wouldn't find it surprising if they were to handcuff even wounded persons, especially if the person is wounded lightly.
Only the ones who are suspected of a crime though. If I'm in a car accident and the police are first on scene, I hope they won't find it necessary to cuff me. In this case, an innocent person was shot, so, cuff him?
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Old 21st July 2016, 09:02 AM   #109
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Originally Posted by Dr.Sid View Post
As I said before .. I'm quite sure police did not want shoot the black man. If they were intentionally shooting at anyone, it was the man with autism, who clearly disobeyed anything police said, and had an object in his hands.
If the gun was in burst mode, then it simply was negligent discharge. If it was not, then it was very poor shooting.

As for handcuffs .. my friend was once not let into USA on the airport, cause he had wrong type of visa. They told him that have to detain him until next plane flies, and he had to be handcuffed all the time he was transported (walked and taken by the car) to the detainment room, which basically was a overnight jail. The cop straight out apologized for that and said that sadly it's regulation, and that he can't walk or take anyone into car without handcuffs.

So I wouldn't find it surprising if they were to handcuff even wounded persons, especially if the person is wounded lightly.

That doesn't mean I don't find it ridiculous.
It is simple policy, all shooting victims must be arrested before they are medically treated regardless of who shot them.
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Old 21st July 2016, 09:04 AM   #110
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
It is simple policy, all shooting victims must be arrested before they are medically treated regardless of who shot them.
Are you serious?? So at the Orlando massacre everyone wounded there was arrested before being medically treated?
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Old 21st July 2016, 09:06 AM   #111
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
It is simple policy, all shooting victims must be arrested before they are medically treated regardless of who shot them.
No, no, clearly it's only the ones shot by the police. So if there's a hostage situation, the police storm the location, and some of the hostages get wounded, it's important that the police find out which ones were shot by them and which ones by the hostage takers so they know who to arrest. And, of course, if one of the criminals accidentally shoots another, they have to let the second one go.

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Old 21st July 2016, 09:06 AM   #112
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
And now you are trying to ruin a mans career for one little mistake.
A 'little' mistake.

I've done 28 of the last 35 years wearing baggy green skin either full time or part time. The guy failed basic weapon handling skills and shot a guy. Quite aside from the political ramifications of this incident, the complete failure to handle such a weapon safety indicate that he is unfit for his job.
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Old 21st July 2016, 09:07 AM   #113
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Originally Posted by lobosrul View Post
Are you serious?? So at the Orlando massacre everyone wounded there was arrested before being medically treated?
Most of ponderingturtle's posts are sarcastic hyperbole. Take them with a grain of salt.
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Old 21st July 2016, 09:12 AM   #114
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Originally Posted by Mikemcc View Post
I can't think of a way of compounding this cluster even further short of the cop killing him.
How about cuffing the gunshot victim placing him face down on the ground for 20 minutes waiting for an arrest squad to take him to jail and only THEN taking him to hospital...?
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Old 21st July 2016, 09:17 AM   #115
crescent
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Originally Posted by Dr.Sid View Post
So I wouldn't find it surprising if they were to handcuff even wounded persons, especially if the person is wounded lightly.
It is standard in the U.S. to handcuff wounded or even dead suspects.

Why Cops Handcuff Dead People

That said, it does seem as if the police decided that shooting the man, even if by accident, automatically made him a suspect. I don't know what he was suspected of, but it must have been something if they needed to wait 20 minutes for an arrest squad and then take him to jail before the hospital.

Perhaps they felt he stole a bullet, and would not give it back.

I am one who normally supports and defends the police, and think there is a strong element of moral panic in the current coverage of cop-on-black person shootings. But this one seems almost completely indefensible.

Even if it was an accidental discharge from a rifle set to 3-round burst, the inability of the police to self deescalate and simply have an ambulance take the man directly to the hospital seems cruel. They were probably following some standard procedure, but there clearly needs to be a better mechanism to understand that there were no violent criminals, no suspects, no nothing there other than an autistic impaired person and a man trying to help him.

Last edited by crescent; 21st July 2016 at 09:24 AM.
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Old 21st July 2016, 09:20 AM   #116
sarge
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Thank god for video. Otherwise, this citizen/victim would be facing jail time.
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Old 21st July 2016, 09:22 AM   #117
Horatius
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And while we're at it:

Quote:
wait 20 minutes for an arrest squad

...could someone explain WTF an "arrest squad" is, why they needed one, and why these cops weren't capable of arresting someone all by themselves, if they deemed an arrest to be needed? Isn't arresting people pretty much a basic function of all police officers?
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Old 21st July 2016, 09:24 AM   #118
Newtons Bit
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Originally Posted by Horatius View Post
And while we're at it:




...could someone explain WTF an "arrest squad" is, why they needed one, and why these cops weren't capable of arresting someone all by themselves, if they deemed an arrest to be needed? Isn't arresting people pretty much a basic function of all police officers?
If he bled out and died waiting for this squad, then there's one fewer witness...
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Old 21st July 2016, 09:27 AM   #119
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Originally Posted by Mikemcc View Post
The cop will be lucky if he doesn't face attempted manslaughter charges.
I don't think you can attempt manslaughter. I think the definition of the crime is unintentional killing.

But there are variations on the theme, which vary from state to state. I think it's something along the lines of "assault with a deadly weapon", or "aggravated assault". Of course, there is "attempted murder", which in Michigan is formally called "assault with attempt to murder".

There is also in some states "assault under color of authority", but I don't know whether there's a distinction between such assaults that involve either deadly force or an attempt to kill.
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Old 21st July 2016, 09:27 AM   #120
Ron Swanson
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Originally Posted by Newtons Bit View Post
If he bled out and died waiting for this squad, then there's one fewer witness...
I feel bad for saying it ... but this was my first thought as well
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