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21st July 2016, 03:54 PM | #241 |
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"Objective Reasonableness"
I believe the standard of "Objective Reasonableness" will be applied. Example from U.S. Supreme Court ruling in Graham v. Connor:
Quote:
So if law enforcement says there was a perceived threat, that could potentially make the use of force... reasonable. As a civilian, I didn't get the sense that the autistic man posed a threat that would justify shots fired. I get the sense that Charles Kinsey, the behavioral therapist, complied with officer requests for compliance and did an exemplary job of explaining the situation while under duress while laying on the ground, hands in air, knowing firearms are pointed his way. Good thing there's video. |
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paranormalstateillustrated.com Taking a close look at what you see and hear on a "Real Life. Drama." TV series. |
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21st July 2016, 04:00 PM | #242 |
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Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin |
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21st July 2016, 04:03 PM | #243 |
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Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin |
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21st July 2016, 04:28 PM | #244 |
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American police seem to have gotten both a grossly exaggerated view of their own importance, and a grossly exaggerated view of the danger they are in from the American public. Being a police officer is not even in the top 10 most dangerous jobs in the US (mind you, that varies by jurisdiction); and the overwhelming majority of line-of-duty deaths for police officers are traffic accidents. You have an orders-of-magnitude greater chance of being shot as a convenience store clerk. But the reality doesn't matter, the impression does. Both of these views stem from what is known as the "Bunker Mentality". Where the "us vs them" mindset is pushed so far over the top that everyone outside the in-group is perceived as an enemy. That's the mindset that has police treating even ordinary citizens as criminals, and attacking them for perceived slights. Add to that a highly exclusionary culture, exacerbated by the rigid and mindless enforcement of laws which nearly everyone knows are not only utterly useless, but outright harmful society and its citizens, and you have a recipe for escalating scales of disasters in interaction with the citizens at large. Irrational fear overriding rational response. |
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21st July 2016, 04:39 PM | #245 |
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There goes negligent discharge ..
I'm speechless .. it all makes even less sense. I mean it makes no sense if from point of scared stupid cop. If he was shooting at the autistic man .. why he stopped shooting ? Did he realize he just wont hit him from that distance ? Got closer only to realize his mistake ? WTF ? |
21st July 2016, 04:40 PM | #246 |
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So they've openly acknowledged that Mr Kinsey did not do anything wrong, that the officer who shot him did so accidentally while trying to
Also now that they have admitted Mr Kinsey was shot completely by accident, hadn't done anything wrong and was completely compliant have the police offered any explanation for why they delayed so long getting him medical treatment, why they cuffed him both at the scene and at the freaking hospital??? |
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21st July 2016, 04:58 PM | #247 |
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...And now you're getting closer to understanding why people have been marching in the streets over this sort of crap, and why quite a few people have been saying "look, it's only a matter of time before some idiot decides to start shooting cops." These violent and random incidents aren't new, just the videos. But the videos are what let everyone in the country get angry over each incident - which is why I said at the start that I'm not watching this one, and why many people are doing the same.
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21st July 2016, 05:32 PM | #248 |
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Black Lives Matter suffers from the same problem as Occupy Wall Street. They have a legitimate grievance that needs legislative action to solve. But neither of these groups have the skills needed to unseat office holders who don't give a damn about their issue. Nor are they good at coming up with specific proposals to improve the situation.
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21st July 2016, 05:36 PM | #249 |
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And never mind that they've helped to kick both the Cleveland and Chicago Attorneys General out of office, or pushed for, among other issues, the federal program for departments to equip police with body cameras.
Some some people (as we've seen in this thread) are intent on dismissing all evidence in favor of blind acceptance, if not open support, of random black people being shot, so these things will take time. ETA: if anything, they've been a remarkable success given such a short period of time, as far as police violence goes, although the organization itself has many other issues on it's plate that receive much less attention. |
21st July 2016, 05:41 PM | #250 |
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I'm watching a video of a police union chief talking about the incident. http://www.miamiherald.com/news/loca...e91083057.html
Some of what he says doesn't add up. He claims that the officers thought Kinsey was in danger from his autistic patient; so he fired his weapon. If the officer really thought Kinsey was in danger, why didn't he keep on firing until the autistic man was killed or no longer a threat? The claim stinks. Ranb |
21st July 2016, 05:59 PM | #251 |
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I know that 'argument by comedian' is not considered a classic skeptical approach, but sometimes comedians really nail it.
There's a Key & Peele episode where they have a police officer who is sincerely genuinely honestly terrified of black people. The sketch follows his career as he is systematically exonerated of shooting hundreds of unarmed compliant black victims. It culminates in his shooting of his own captain. "Well, he did approach him with that coffee and donut unannounced." So, this is where the definition of 'justified' is reaching its problematic point in the USA's career trajectory. Are we willing to accept "Well, black people were the villains in Miami Vice so I'm excused for thinking they're villains in real life" as the threshold for 'justified'? Or should we expect better here in 2016? |
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21st July 2016, 06:22 PM | #252 |
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I think that's part of what people don't get about the entire BLM issue.
It's not just that the cop shot the guy. It's not even that the shooting was blatantly unwarranted. It's the way the department, the FOP, and their fanboys immediately circle the wagons, latch onto any excuse no matter how flimsy, and defend the cop-who-obviously-shouldn't-be-a-cop with every single breath. The next step is to attack anyone who questions them or demands answers as "anti-police." |
21st July 2016, 08:31 PM | #253 |
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The first case he cites does not feature a white victim. He's Hispanic, and if you look into the case, you'd learn that he was armed with a knife and had just assaulted his baby. It's not as sinister as it seems. And the cops who killed him were Hispanic too (of course that's important since many here believe that police brutality is due to "white supremacy").
The second case he cites didn't receive much if any publicity because the "offending" cop was black. That's why you didn't hear about it. And notice how his white partner didn't shoot at all. How is that even possible? Ironically, the only almost confirmed case of a civilian being killed by a cop while having his empty hands up in the air is the case of Jeremy Mardis and his father (both white, both killed by black cops). I still need to see the video for me to be 100% convinced though. edit -- I just rewatched the video from the second cited case, and that appears to be justified too. The cop repeatedly tells him to not exit the car, and then the victim just barges out and flings his hands forward. |
21st July 2016, 08:38 PM | #254 |
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Nice race bias from your source.
Why not mention that Castile's killer is a brown Latino? The race of the cop is only relevant if he or she is white? edit -- this link confirms that the offending cop is Hispanic, which is your source neglects to mention for some reason. http://wsvn.com/news/local/video-sho...t-unarmed-man/ This news is going to disappoint all of those BLM idiots on twitter who are assuming the cop is a white racist (because only white people are evil enough to shoot black people). My favorite tweet so far https://twitter.com/MARQ_C/status/756252496339750912 |
21st July 2016, 08:44 PM | #255 |
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Funny, even on the right-leaning Daily Mail, the overwhelming majority of readers felt that this shooting was unjustified (based on upvotes).
And sadly, some will be disappointed to learn that the cop was aiming for the patient and not the unarmed black guy with his hands in the air. |
21st July 2016, 08:47 PM | #256 |
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21st July 2016, 08:59 PM | #257 |
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And see, folks? They're already expressing disappointment with the news.
Look on the bright side, the cop was trying to "murder" a brown Latino. That's still racism, right? Well, we still need the very important information on the cop's race, but don't get your hopes up. He's probably Latino too considering that it's Florida we're talking about here. |
21st July 2016, 09:58 PM | #258 |
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Maybe instead of getting miffed you could clarify what you are saying. Three cops are shown holding rifles in position behind a vehicle. Is there any reason to think someone pulled a pistol out? All you've said is, it's not X because it didn't do enough damage. But the facts in front of us show us otherwise.
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21st July 2016, 10:01 PM | #259 |
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21st July 2016, 10:05 PM | #260 |
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21st July 2016, 10:06 PM | #261 |
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Bet you dollars to donuts he gets reprimanded, sent to retraining, busted in rank if possible and keeps his job.
I do hope that applies to everyone there who was involved in cuffing the victim after an admitted accidental discharge and an obvious mistake not recognizing a toy truck was not a gun. |
21st July 2016, 10:14 PM | #262 |
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Past performance as in I haven't changed my conclusion that Brown was not bull-rushing said trigger happy Wilson?
For the record, no I have not. And given the continued occurrences of homicide by cop that we've seen now that more people are catching these events on camera, I am even more convinced my conclusion about Brown's death was correct. As you can see, a two minute Google finds more than one 'shot with hands up'. |
21st July 2016, 10:20 PM | #263 |
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Your cop apologies are duly noted. I don't choose to waste more time finding incidences of cops shooting people with their hands up just to satisfy your nitpicking.
Ball's in your court, find us incidents where cops were disciplined, fired or charged with a crime because their coworkers didn't lie for them when no videos exposed their accidental or negligent shooting. Is it insignificant that these negligent shootings (accidental or criminal) only come to light when a bystander or security cam catches the incident? |
21st July 2016, 10:22 PM | #264 |
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21st July 2016, 10:24 PM | #265 |
... and your little dog too.
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21st July 2016, 10:27 PM | #266 |
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That's sick if that turns out to be the case, shooting a mentally disabled man with a toy truck while another man is yelling at you, "I'm a therapist and don't shoot it's a toy truck" and it's clear from the video that a toy truck is in the man's hand.
Are the cops that stupid that they think a mentally disabled man sitting in the street playing with a toy, oblivious to the scene around him is going to obey the cop's commands? I do hope that does not turn out to be the actual story. |
21st July 2016, 10:31 PM | #267 |
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21st July 2016, 10:32 PM | #268 |
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Personally think in this case it isn't a black shooting issue. It's a how stupid and **** are US cops issue
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21st July 2016, 10:32 PM | #269 |
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21st July 2016, 10:35 PM | #270 |
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21st July 2016, 10:39 PM | #271 |
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21st July 2016, 10:43 PM | #272 |
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21st July 2016, 10:44 PM | #273 |
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21st July 2016, 10:47 PM | #274 |
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I repeat my challenge to you then:
Ball's in your court, find us incidents where cops were disciplined, fired or charged with a crime because their coworkers didn't lie for them when no videos exposed their accidental or negligent shooting. Is it insignificant that these negligent shootings (accidental or criminal) only come to light when a bystander or security cam catches the incident? |
21st July 2016, 10:48 PM | #275 |
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21st July 2016, 10:50 PM | #276 |
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I'd love to hear how any one could justify this cop being allowed to carry a gun again
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21st July 2016, 10:58 PM | #277 |
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21st July 2016, 11:02 PM | #278 |
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21st July 2016, 11:06 PM | #279 |
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This is all about race for the far left. They wouldn't give a flying if these victims were white. In fact, they outright deny that whites can even be victims of police brutality. Hence the often-repeated line, "if he was white, he would have lived". This despite the fact that the worse case of police brutality this year happened to a white man.
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nati...icle-1.2582759 When I pointed out to someone here that 15% of white homicide victims die at the hands of police (in comparison to just 5% of black homicide victims), his immediate response to me was, "that's because white people are more violent with cops!!!", a factoid he pulled out of thin air. This same guy would never consider that possibility for black people, when attempting to explain the black disproportionality of police-shooting victims. But for white people, they all deserved it. |
21st July 2016, 11:07 PM | #280 |
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Well, there are certainly the issues with how police in the US deal with people who are mentally ill or disabled as well - and often, people who are physically disabled. And these can easily combine with the freakout over skin color, as in this example among many.
I can't necessarily fault the caller, in the case this thread is about - Unlike Zimmerman or that idiot that got John Crawford III killed, this one likely just called because that's what people are taught to do, and didn't forsee police shooting the guy who came to aid an autistic man who really just had a toy truck. But that just leads to another issue - when the hell is it okay to call the cops, anyway? |
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