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Tags Charles Kinsey , Jonathan Aledda , police misconduct charges , police shootings , racial incidents , racism charges

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Old 21st July 2016, 11:11 PM   #281
cullennz
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This whole incident is just wrong on so many levels it's surreal
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Old 21st July 2016, 11:17 PM   #282
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
I'm watching a video of a police union chief talking about the incident. http://www.miamiherald.com/news/loca...e91083057.html

Some of what he says doesn't add up. He claims that the officers thought Kinsey was in danger from his autistic patient; so he fired his weapon. If the officer really thought Kinsey was in danger, why didn't he keep on firing until the autistic man was killed or no longer a threat? The claim stinks.

Ranb
This video clearly demonstrates part of the problem.
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Old 21st July 2016, 11:19 PM   #283
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
I repeat my challenge to you then:

Ball's in your court, find us incidents where cops were disciplined, fired or charged with a crime because their coworkers didn't lie for them when no videos exposed their accidental or negligent shooting.

Is it insignificant that these negligent shootings (accidental or criminal) only come to light when a bystander or security cam catches the incident?
OMG. There are quite a few cases.

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/02/12/ny...-brooklyn.html

How could you forget this case?

Even more ironic, a white cop was charged with murder a few years ago despite there being dash cam video corroborating a significant part of his story. Specifically, the part where the suspect charged at him like a madman.

http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/video/vict...olice-33247036

Without the video, I doubt you would have believed that an unarmed black man who hadn't committed any crime would all of sudden charge at a cop full speed. I mean, you still don't even believe Michael Brown rushed Wilson despite all of the evidence saying that he did. Instead, you'd rather believe the witnesses who admitted to fabricating their accounts to DOJ investigators.
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Old 22nd July 2016, 12:51 AM   #284
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Just FYI -- there is a multi-quote feature.
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Old 22nd July 2016, 01:33 AM   #285
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
This is far worse than a "sorry, an accident" excuse. "Sorry, I hit one harmless man while I was trying to shoot another harmless man". Far, far worse.
ITYM "Sorry, I hit one harmless man while I was trying to shoot another harmless man, cuffed the man I'd shot, kept him lying on the ground for twenty minutes, then arrested him and took him into custody before I got any medical help for him even though I never had any reason to suspect he was a threat."

It seems to me that the problem here is that the relationship between the police and the citizenry in the USA is often one of "Follow any orders I give you or you will be shot and possibly killed," and that a significant part of the population are prepared to defend this as a reasonable relationship. Law abiding citizens should not have anything to fear from the police, and in many other countries in general they don't. It seems that in certain parts of the USA that isn't the case, and that law abiding citizens are expected to go in fear of the police and act accordingly. That's not the relationship of police to citizenry; it's the relationship of an occupying force to the conquered.

Dave
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Old 22nd July 2016, 01:36 AM   #286
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
ITYM "Sorry, I hit one harmless man while I was trying to shoot another harmless man, cuffed the man I'd shot, kept him lying on the ground for twenty minutes, then arrested him and took him into custody before I got any medical help for him even though I never had any reason to suspect he was a threat."

It seems to me that the problem here is that the relationship between the police and the citizenry in the USA is often one of "Follow any orders I give you or you will be shot and possibly killed," and that a significant part of the population are prepared to defend this as a reasonable relationship. Law abiding citizens should not have anything to fear from the police, and in many other countries in general they don't. It seems that in certain parts of the USA that isn't the case, and that law abiding citizens are expected to go in fear of the police and act accordingly. That's not the relationship of police to citizenry; it's the relationship of an occupying force to the conquered.

Dave
Agree totally.
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Old 22nd July 2016, 04:13 AM   #287
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Past performance as in I haven't changed my conclusion that Brown was not bull-rushing said trigger happy Wilson?

For the record, no I have not. And given the continued occurrences of homicide by cop that we've seen now that more people are catching these events on camera, I am even more convinced my conclusion about Brown's death was correct.

As you can see, a two minute Google finds more than one 'shot with hands up'.
Suspition confirmed. People have died for that false narrative.
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Old 22nd July 2016, 04:22 AM   #288
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
And even more of us are sickened by the changing story from an accidental discharge to the claim the shots were justified they just missed.
He is recorded saying that he doesn't know why he fired, so it will be pretty tough to sell any other story.

The LAPD once fired over 100 rounds at two ladies in a small pickup truck delivering newspapers. And somehow didn't kill them. And no one lost their job.
They also opened up on another innocent victim. This was during the Dorner incident.

LAPD said that a newspaper hitting the ground sounded like a gunshot...
They hit seven houses and 9 other vehicles with bullets.
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Old 22nd July 2016, 04:54 AM   #289
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
ITYM "Sorry, I hit one harmless man while I was trying to shoot another harmless man, cuffed the man I'd shot, kept him lying on the ground for twenty minutes, then arrested him and took him into custody before I got any medical help for him even though I never had any reason to suspect he was a threat."

It seems to me that the problem here is that the relationship between the police and the citizenry in the USA is often one of "Follow any orders I give you or you will be shot and possibly killed," and that a significant part of the population are prepared to defend this as a reasonable relationship. Law abiding citizens should not have anything to fear from the police, and in many other countries in general they don't. It seems that in certain parts of the USA that isn't the case, and that law abiding citizens are expected to go in fear of the police and act accordingly. That's not the relationship of police to citizenry; it's the relationship of an occupying force to the conquered.

Dave
That perfectly captures the relationship between cops and citizens in the US. There are probably small pockets of normalized relations between the police and the citizens, but overwhelmingly cops expect respect and subservience.
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Old 22nd July 2016, 05:12 AM   #290
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Originally Posted by sarge View Post
That perfectly captures the relationship between cops and citizens in the US. There are probably small pockets of normalized relations between the police and the citizens, but overwhelmingly cops expect respect and subservience.
Do you think it may be related?

http://www.nationalreview.com/corner...rles-c-w-cooke
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Old 22nd July 2016, 05:19 AM   #291
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Is there a transcript of that? It's really hard to listen to.
None that I'm aware of.
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Old 22nd July 2016, 05:20 AM   #292
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
This is far worse than a "sorry, an accident" excuse. "Sorry, I hit one harmless man while I was trying to shoot another harmless man". Far, far worse.

Yeah. "That just turns one screw-up into two screw-ups," went through my head after reading that excerpt.

Now I see what he was trying to do, though. As someone else pointed out, the chief is attempting to justify the officer's decision to shoot, claiming that the officer believed the autistic man to pose a significant and credible threat to public safety, deserving of a lethal response.

He's setting things up so that the officer gets the minimum possible punishment. I suspect "shot at an actual threat, accidentally hit an innocent" merits less punishment than "accidentally shot an innocent for no goddamn reason".

Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
Law abiding citizens should not have anything to fear from the police, and in many other countries in general they don't.

I think a lot of people are conflating "law-abiding" with "authority-abiding". You can be a law-abiding citizen, but if you don't submit to authority at the drop of a hat, you're not a good citizen and deserve, at least in part, whatever (over)reaction the police respond with.

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Old 22nd July 2016, 05:23 AM   #293
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
This whole incident is just wrong on so many levels it's surreal
What he said. I've been trying to come up with a reply, and the incident is surreal. It's just so wrong on so many levels, I can't even...

ETA: Makes me think, if I have to deal with cops what is the "right" behavior, the safe thing to do? There isn't any anymore.

Last edited by Pup; 22nd July 2016 at 05:26 AM.
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Old 22nd July 2016, 05:27 AM   #294
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
I think that unlike the general population, cops probably understand that violent crime is and has been decreasing for decades, so that doesn't directly explain the problem, if that is what you meant.
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Old 22nd July 2016, 05:45 AM   #295
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
ITYM "Sorry, I hit one harmless man while I was trying to shoot another harmless man, cuffed the man I'd shot, kept him lying on the ground for twenty minutes, then arrested him and took him into custody before I got any medical help for him even though I never had any reason to suspect he was a threat."
And that's one reason I'll simply discard it until the shooter says it for himself. At worst, it means one is simply waiting for stronger evidence before accepting such an incompetent defense. At best, hey maybe that's not actually the shooter's position at all, and so you aren't quite so negatively impacted by a false claim.
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Old 22nd July 2016, 05:45 AM   #296
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Yet another bogus BLM case.

According to BLM Twitter, this black man was unarmed and had his hands up before he was gunned down by two Hispanic cops (who of course are assumed to be "white" supremacists on twitter, but this is NOT about race, they say).

http://www.chron.com/news/houston-te...of-8400893.php

To refute them, Houston police released badgecam footage of the incident showing that he was indeed armed with a pistol. You can also see from the security footage that he lowered his arm (the one with the gun) in the direction of the cop just before he was shot.

BLM twitter is also comparing this case to another case where an alleged "white man" (there's no information on his race ATM) shot at cops through the window of his house and was later arrested without injury after he surrendered peacefully. Two cases with very different circumstances and different cops, but this is proof of racism, they say!
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Old 22nd July 2016, 05:46 AM   #297
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Originally Posted by Pup View Post
ETA: Makes me think, if I have to deal with cops what is the "right" behavior, the safe thing to do? There isn't any anymore.
Actually, there never really was.
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Old 22nd July 2016, 06:11 AM   #298
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Originally Posted by Modified View Post
I think that unlike the general population, cops probably understand that violent crime is and has been decreasing for decades, so that doesn't directly explain the problem, if that is what you meant.
Do you believe that the drop in crime is somehow completely unrelated to the way in which crime is policed?
Like many, I feel our prison population is ridiculously high- yet I also think it very likely to be a contributing factor to the decrease in crime. The two trends follow each other pretty closely.
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Old 22nd July 2016, 06:18 AM   #299
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Originally Posted by Tony Stark View Post
If he had his finger on the trigger and didn't intend to shoot, that means he is completely incompetent at handling firearms and should not be a police officer.
I'm in general agreement.
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Old 22nd July 2016, 06:19 AM   #300
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Originally Posted by Ammonitida View Post
Yet another bogus BLM case.

According to BLM Twitter, this black man was unarmed and had his hands up before he was gunned down by two Hispanic cops (who of course are assumed to be "white" supremacists on twitter, but this is NOT about race, they say).

http://www.chron.com/news/houston-te...of-8400893.php

To refute them, Houston police released badgecam footage of the incident showing that he was indeed armed with a pistol. You can also see from the security footage that he lowered his arm (the one with the gun) in the direction of the cop just before he was shot.

BLM twitter is also comparing this case to another case where an alleged "white man" (there's no information on his race ATM) shot at cops through the window of his house and was later arrested without injury after he surrendered peacefully. Two cases with very different circumstances and different cops, but this is proof of racism, they say!

Is it your contention that there's no issue to be resolved around unjustified police shootings?
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Old 22nd July 2016, 06:25 AM   #301
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
And that's one reason I'll simply discard it until the shooter says it for himself. At worst, it means one is simply waiting for stronger evidence before accepting such an incompetent defense. At best, hey maybe that's not actually the shooter's position at all, and so you aren't quite so negatively impacted by a false claim.
In which case the only evidence of any value available now is the shooter's statement at the time that he didn't know why he fired, which means he's starting from a pretty bad position already.

Dave
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Old 22nd July 2016, 06:27 AM   #302
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
In which case the only evidence of any value available now is the shooter's statement at the time that he didn't know why he fired, which means he's starting from a pretty bad position already.

Dave
That evidence is of very poor value actually.
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Old 22nd July 2016, 06:50 AM   #303
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Originally Posted by Ammonitida View Post
Yet another bogus BLM case.
The movement that cried wolf.
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Old 22nd July 2016, 07:45 AM   #304
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
In which case the only evidence of any value available now is the shooter's statement at the time that he didn't know why he fired, which means he's starting from a pretty bad position already.

Dave
Oh, I agree. And if the cop actually goes with the "shot at the autistic guy with the toy truck while his caretaker was trying to calm him down" story, then I'll accept it as his story - in which case he's describing himself as a horrible person rather than a mere complete incompetent.

But the basic idea here is that everyone deserves a chance at a good defense for what they did, and this "defense" is the sort of thing I would say if I were trying to backstab him.
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Old 22nd July 2016, 08:21 AM   #305
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
Well, there are certainly the issues with how police in the US deal with people who are mentally ill or disabled as well - and often, people who are physically disabled. And these can easily combine with the freakout over skin color, as in this example among many.

Or the Seattle police killing of disabled First Nations artist John Williams with no significant consequences resulting therefrom. The shooting was ruled unjustified, but the officer was not significantly penalized, certainly no criminal charges were brought, and he was allowed to resign and keep his benefits.

Quote:
I can't necessarily fault the caller, in the case this thread is about - Unlike Zimmerman or that idiot that got John Crawford III killed, this one likely just called because that's what people are taught to do, and didn't forsee police shooting the guy who came to aid an autistic man who really just had a toy truck. But that just leads to another issue - when the hell is it okay to call the cops, anyway?

And that's the real problem. It should be okay to call the police in a situation like that, and all that should happen is an officer shows up, checks to make sure everyone involved is okay, and then goes back to their regular patrol. Maybe in an ideal world the officer would also take the time to find out if any assistance from public agencies is needed and put a call in to that effect. At the very least, it should be possible to call the police under those circumstances without worrying about whether anyone is going to get shot by some psycho bigot or panicky headcase with a badge and gun.
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Old 22nd July 2016, 08:54 AM   #306
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Originally Posted by sarge View Post
That perfectly captures the relationship between cops and citizens in the US. There are probably small pockets of normalized relations between the police and the citizens, but overwhelmingly cops expect respect and subservience.
Some of the police departments in this area have the motto "To Serve and Protect" on police vehicles. Left unsaid is who they are serving and protecting.

The answer should be all members of the community. Including the poor, minorities and those expressing unpopular opinions.
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Old 22nd July 2016, 08:59 AM   #307
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Originally Posted by Kestrel View Post
The answer should be all members of the community. Including the poor, minorities and those expressing unpopular opinions.
And those with developmental disorders and mental health problems.

Dave
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Old 22nd July 2016, 09:21 AM   #308
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
In some of these cases I see room for giving cops the benefit of the doubt. Like when a kid is play-acting with a very realistic toy gun and inexperienced cops, buzzed on adrenaline, fire prematurely. But this? The guy is going out of his way to show cops exactly where his hands are while explaining about the autistic kid (? not sure age) and the toy truck. I don't know what else was going on around there but there seemed to be enough time to hang back out of handgun range while assessing the (nil) threat.

I'm glad this victim lived. With all the heat out there we need some reasonable way to train cops to de-escalate. IMO they actually should not be putting themselves in range to be hurt if there are better tactical options. If the cops feel more in control they will be less likely to make poor split-second decisions. It's not all racism, I think people are on edge in general.
The bit where they handcuffed him and then didn't perform first aid for 20-minutes is also less than ideal.
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Old 22nd July 2016, 09:26 AM   #309
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
ITYM "Sorry, I hit one harmless man while I was trying to shoot another harmless man, cuffed the man I'd shot, kept him lying on the ground for twenty minutes, then arrested him and took him into custody before I got any medical help for him even though I never had any reason to suspect he was a threat."

It seems to me that the problem here is that the relationship between the police and the citizenry in the USA is often one of "Follow any orders I give you or you will be shot and possibly killed," and that a significant part of the population are prepared to defend this as a reasonable relationship. Law abiding citizens should not have anything to fear from the police, and in many other countries in general they don't. It seems that in certain parts of the USA that isn't the case, and that law abiding citizens are expected to go in fear of the police and act accordingly. That's not the relationship of police to citizenry; it's the relationship of an occupying force to the conquered.

Dave
Another incident, which wins a prze for lack of self-awareness on the part of the police officer:

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/...n-king-n614586



Quote:
In a second video showing King being driven to jail by Officer Patrick Spradlin, who is white, King asks Spradlin if he thinks racism still exists and she says she thinks white people have more rights than blacks, and some people are afraid of black people.

"Why are so many people afraid of black people?" Spradlin says in response. "I can give you a really good — a really good idea why it might be that way," Spradlin says. "Violent tendencies."

"I'm not saying anything, I'm not saying it's true — I'm not saying that I can prove it or nothing. But 99 percent of the time, when you hear about stuff like that, it is the black community that's being violent," Spradlin says. "That's why a lot of the white people are afraid and I don't blame them."
This is after the cop had violently assaulted King.
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Old 22nd July 2016, 09:29 AM   #310
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
Do you believe that the drop in crime is somehow completely unrelated to the way in which crime is policed?
As far as what we are talking about now, yes. Beatings, violent attitudes, apparent attempts to increase the odds of violent confrontation rather than decrease them. I don't think any of that is lowering crime rates.

Quote:
Like many, I feel our prison population is ridiculously high- yet I also think it very likely to be a contributing factor to the decrease in crime. The two trends follow each other pretty closely.
High prison populations may be partly responsible. Long term effects of legalized abortion and elimination of leaded gasoline are probably greater contributors. An increase in entertainment options probably helps as well.
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Old 22nd July 2016, 09:29 AM   #311
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Originally Posted by Dr.Sid View Post
As I said before .. I'm quite sure police did not want shoot the black man. If they were intentionally shooting at anyone, it was the man with autism, who clearly disobeyed anything police said, and had an object in his hands.
If the gun was in burst mode, then it simply was negligent discharge. If it was not, then it was very poor shooting.

As for handcuffs .. my friend was once not let into USA on the airport, cause he had wrong type of visa. They told him that have to detain him until next plane flies, and he had to be handcuffed all the time he was transported (walked and taken by the car) to the detainment room, which basically was a overnight jail. The cop straight out apologized for that and said that sadly it's regulation, and that he can't walk or take anyone into car without handcuffs.

So I wouldn't find it surprising if they were to handcuff even wounded persons, especially if the person is wounded lightly.

That doesn't mean I don't find it ridiculous.
In that case, the regulations need altering - that is possible, I'm sure there isn't an amendment to the constitution mandating handcuffs in police cars.
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Old 22nd July 2016, 09:38 AM   #312
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Originally Posted by Mikemcc View Post

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Criticizing the police for actions like this clearly feeds into the narrative of those who are angry and want to kill cops. That is why filming police needs to be made the level of crime it is based on how detrimental it is to public perceptions of police competence.
No, shooting an innocent guy feeds that narrative. At the moment it looks more like a cock up than any intentional effort. A single cop with safety off, finger on trigger and rate set to burst.

If it was just damage to property then a disciplinary, retraining and a poor record on his books. Except an innocent guy got shot. Not just that, but a black innocent guy, clearly showing that he was unarmed, was explaining the situation, and trying to de-escalate things got shot. I can't think of a way of compounding this cluster even further short of the cop killing him. The cop will be lucky if he doesn't face attempted manslaughter charges.
Originally Posted by bruto View Post
And how does this comment not apply to you, or to anyone who mentions the incident at all? Of course one must hope that nobody shoots a cop over this. Does that possibility mean nobody should point out how bad it was?
Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
It is simple policy, all shooting victims must be arrested before they are medically treated regardless of who shot them.
Originally Posted by TheGoldcountry View Post
Er, I think that is the point.
Yes, Mikemcc, I think you need to recalibrate your sarcasm detector.
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Old 22nd July 2016, 09:39 AM   #313
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
That's not the relationship of police to citizenry; it's the relationship of an occupying force to the conquered.

I think this is a lot closer to the truth than you or others may realize. More below.

Originally Posted by Modified View Post
I think that unlike the general population, cops probably understand that violent crime is and has been decreasing for decades, so that doesn't directly explain the problem, if that is what you meant.

No, not true. It's clear that the police do not think that way, and are not taught to think that way. In fact, many of them have an exaggerated view of the rate of violent crime and their likelihood to be impacted by it. Listening to all the justifications for killing and assaulting unarmed citizenry all comes down to the same thing:

The police are taught to believe that they are, in fact, an army, and that they are at war.

They started down this road with the inception of the War on Drug during the Nixon administration. This attitude was greatly exacerbated and exaggerated during the Reagan and Clinton years with huge escalations of the War on Drugs. That is what triggered the increasing militarization of the police, and the widespread adoption of paramilitary tactics and equipment for even routine police work. The amorphous nature of the the War on Drugs has encouraged the police to look upon entire communities as "the enemy", and the fact that it disproportionately targets minorities and lower socioeconomic classes fosters and encourages racist and classist attitudes among officers. It has also been the primary driver of the "bunker mentality" prevalent among so many department cultures; and the drive to justify every improper shooting and harassment of the public. They have been driven to see themselves as over and separate from the rest of society, which is seething with hidden criminal activity that could boil over at any point.

The advent of the War on Terrorism, and the gross overreaction that resulted in the almost-Orwellian Department of Homeland Security has only served to feed that attitude and exaggerate the danger, greatly exacerbating the risk of official overreaction to incidents that would have not even been considered noteworthy a few decades ago.

Even if they acknowledge the continued decline in violent crime rates, they will do so only through the lens of a post-hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy; believing their militant posture and rampant paranoia are the cause of the decline, rather than being effectively irrelevant (or outright counterproductive) overall.

The "War" narrative has permeated law enforcement culture, and has resulted in egregious abuses of power on many different levels and in many different contexts; with militarization turning them from public servants into occupying forces, and forfeiture laws turning them from public employees into licensed bandits and privateers. It won't be until the "War" narrative ends and its pernicious influence on the culture is remove that this situation will improve to any significant degree. Unfortunately, the vast majority of the government at all levels is heavily invested in the narrative, both politically and financially, so reform will be excruciatingly slow and prone to swift reversal.
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Old 22nd July 2016, 09:47 AM   #314
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Was with an autistic fellow who appeared pretty normal, to make sure everything went okay, back 1990ish. Had to go through a security checkpoint. The guys weren't busy and bored, so we got to talking. The autistic fellow just stood quietly. Then for some reason one of the two rentacops puts his arm on the autistic guy's shoulder in a casual friendly sort of way, like he was going to share something confidential. I don't like touchy people and he was probably breaking some rule, but it wouldn't even have bothered me.

The autistic guy went into total melt down. Not physically threatening, but backing off, scared, angry, don't touch me, clearly starting to lose it.

I explained he was autistic and didn't like being touched, he was just having a meltdown, he needed a little space and some quiet, and he'd be fine.

He stood by the side of the road for a minute, while I waited aside a little ways to make sure he did okay. He composed himself, and then quietly stepped forward.

The point is: the rentacops listened to me and believed my explanation! When he was ready, they saw he was okay and I was there with him, and they let us pass! He was fine from then on, as I expected.

That was of course a much lower level problem than in the OP. But still, it went the way it should have gone. Now, wow, I'd probably just suggest to his mother that he stay home. Things could go real south real fast, and I'd be afraid I couldn't make it okay. I still feel myself breathing a sigh of relief, all these years later.
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Old 22nd July 2016, 09:48 AM   #315
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Originally Posted by Modified View Post
High prison populations may be partly responsible. Long term effects of legalized abortion and elimination of leaded gasoline are probably greater contributors. An increase in entertainment options probably helps as well.

As I recall, the biggest factors in the drop in crime rate are the dramatic reduction in environmental lead, resulting predominantly from the elimination of leaded petrol; improvements in education; social programs to remedy poverty and help provide employment; and the decline in the drug trade resulting from the cocaine crash.

The primary driver of crime, particularly violent crime, in the US has been the drug trade, exacerbated by the War on Drugs.

High prison populations have actually been counterproductive for the reduction of crime rates, as they affect predominantly minority communities, and result in very large numbers of adults who are effectively unemployable (or at least make it very difficult to find employment). Reforms and social programs have improved that situation somewhat; but the rise of for-profit prisons and their attendant inmate quotas and poor availability of education and re-integration programs, have stymied many attempts at reform and enabled the problem to persist at artificially high rates.
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Last edited by luchog; 22nd July 2016 at 09:50 AM.
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Old 22nd July 2016, 09:57 AM   #316
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
I'm watching a video of a police union chief talking about the incident. http://www.miamiherald.com/news/loca...e91083057.html

Some of what he says doesn't add up. He claims that the officers thought Kinsey was in danger from his autistic patient; so he fired his weapon. If the officer really thought Kinsey was in danger, why didn't he keep on firing until the autistic man was killed or no longer a threat? The claim stinks.

Ranb
Apparently that same PBA chief, Jim Rivera, has previously claimed that police bodycams endanger officers lives. Given that the recording we have of the incident clearly shows Kinsey engaged in 2 way communication with the officers on the scene, trying to deescalate them and letting them know that the autistic man is unarmed, I frankly don't believe the police union's version of events.
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Old 22nd July 2016, 10:07 AM   #317
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
No, not true. It's clear that the police do not think that way, and are not taught to think that way. In fact, many of them have an exaggerated view of the rate of violent crime and their likelihood to be impacted by it.
The change in thinking doesn't mean they are unaware that the crime rate has decreased. Surely they are aware of the statistics or general trends, at least locally.
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Old 22nd July 2016, 10:11 AM   #318
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Originally Posted by sarge View Post
That perfectly captures the relationship between cops and citizens in the US. There are probably small pockets of normalized relations between the police and the citizens, but overwhelmingly cops expect respect and subservience.
Yes, and instant compliance. Confusion, disability, mental illness or age are not considered anything that should be even taken into account. Failure to comply instantly with an officers commands is seen as automatically justifying force.
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Old 22nd July 2016, 10:19 AM   #319
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Originally Posted by sarge View Post
That perfectly captures the relationship between cops and citizens in the US. There are probably small pockets of normalized relations between the police and the citizens, but overwhelmingly cops expect respect and subservience.
Originally Posted by Carnivore View Post
Yes, and instant compliance. Confusion, disability, mental illness or age are not considered anything that should be even taken into account. Failure to comply instantly with an officers commands is seen as automatically justifying force.

I think these statements need to be prefaced with 'in the worst instances'.

I suspect there are many police/public interactions that don't conform to the above, we just don't hear about them.
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Old 22nd July 2016, 10:24 AM   #320
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Is it your contention that there's no issue to be resolved around unjustified police shootings?
My contention is that BLM is brimming with racist, hateful cranks. There may be an issue with unjustified police shootings but the way BLM goes about it on social media and the public is sickening. There's talk of "genocides" being waged against black men, all sorts of bizarre conspiracy theories, claims of "white supremacist" media bias, etc. In fact, one of the self-styled "leaders" of BLM is still asserting that Sandra Bland was murdered and that racist cops made it look like a suicide.

BLM has a proven track record of hyping up bogus cases like Michael Brown, Alton Sterling, and Antonio Martin, and NEVER conceding that they were wrong about anything. Indeed, for many, every single white cop-on-black shooting is a "racist murder" and nothing will convince them otherwise. These people are not exceptions. They're the rule. This would all be hilarious if it didn't have serious consequences for innocent cops. But it does. At least 8 cops died and many more were seriously injured because their hateful rhetoric motivated two mentally ill men to go on shooting rampages. That rhetoric also compelled another wack job to murder an innocent white woman. They won't be the last. Almost as awful, many of those associated with BLM later condoned these murders on social media. On twitter, I saw a 50-50 split between those condemning Micah (condemnations that went like, "what Micah did was wrong BUT") and those calling him a hero.

At the very core of BLM is racial hatred of the "other", masquerading under the guise of "social justice". It's not about the police. Both Jordan Davis and Treyvon Martin were the beginning of the BLM movement, neither of whom were killed by cops. Race was the issue. We watched as the Jordan Davis case was falsely portrayed by BLM and the "white supremacist media" as a racially motivated homicide -- leading Salon writer Brittany Cooper to declare that there was an "onslaught of white-on-black murder". A run-of-the mill road rage case became a media sensation and BLM cause. There is no comparable outrage over a similar case like Delrawn Small. Know why? His murderer is a black off-duty cop. We have seen repeatedly that BLM doesn't give a flying about black cops who "murder" unarmed black men. Ironically, Delrawn Small is the ONLY case this year where an unarmed black man was legitimately murdered in cold blood by a cop. In fact, at least 31% of all unarmed black men killed by cops this year were killed by black and brown cops, but you wouldn't know that from social media.
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