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Tags Charles Kinsey , Jonathan Aledda , police misconduct charges , police shootings , racial incidents , racism charges

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Old 22nd July 2016, 10:26 AM   #321
luchog
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Originally Posted by Modified View Post
The change in thinking doesn't mean they are unaware that the crime rate has decreased. Surely they are aware of the statistics or general trends, at least locally.

I'd say you'd be surprised how little people pay attention to statistics or real-world trends, and simply make assumptions based on popular misconceptions, emotional reasoning, and personal belief/prejudice; but the fact that this forum and others like it exist should pretty much mean that we aren't surprised by any such thing.

It's a similar mindset to the one that believes in the efficacy of alt.med despite the overwhelming evidence against it. Personal anecdote and preconceptions always overrule evidence for many people.

At best, they may react to the evidence along the lines of "yes, the rate is going down in general, but where I am it is still very bad". But for the most part, I would expect that few officers are truly aware of the crime rates and their history.

And even if they are, as noted earlier, they will tend to attribute that to their efforts and practices, rather than broader social trends and changes.
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Old 22nd July 2016, 10:31 AM   #322
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Originally Posted by Ammonitida View Post
My contention is that BLM is brimming with racist, hateful cranks.
It's a hashtag. There's going to be a huge array of people using it.
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Old 22nd July 2016, 10:39 AM   #323
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
I think these statements need to be prefaced with 'in the worst instances'.

I suspect there are many police/public interactions that don't conform to the above, we just don't hear about them.
Sure. There are so many police agencies in the US and we don't hear about the majority of them from year to year. I'm certain there a great many exemplary police departments, who take training and hiring very seriously and who serve their communities professionally and well.

The problem is that over and over "the worst instances" don't seem to be a lone rotten apple but a whole rotten barrel of PD and DA's office. When cases like this come to light it usually turns out that the particular jurisdiction it happened in has a longstanding culture of police entitlement and the disregard of citizens rights. The Ferguson PD is not a weird anomaly.
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Old 22nd July 2016, 11:01 AM   #324
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Originally Posted by Carnivore View Post
The problem is that over and over "the worst instances" don't seem to be a lone rotten apple but a whole rotten barrel of PD and DA's office. When cases like this come to light it usually turns out that the particular jurisdiction it happened in has a longstanding culture of police entitlement and the disregard of citizens rights. The Ferguson PD is not a weird anomaly.

I agree completely and wasn't trying to excuse or make light of this incident.

I just think that sometimes we* lose track of the fact that we're taking one (abysmally handled) interaction of many (tens of thousands? Hundreds of thousands?) and that there may be many good police forces out there to whom the blanket statements we all seem to make - self included - when these incidents happen, don't apply.





(*We being you guys and me, a few thousand miles away in the international peanut gallery)
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Old 22nd July 2016, 11:09 AM   #325
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Originally Posted by Ammonitida View Post
My contention is that BLM is brimming with racist, hateful cranks. There may be an issue with unjustified police shootings but the way BLM goes about it on social media and the public is sickening. There's talk of "genocides" being waged against black men, all sorts of bizarre conspiracy theories, claims of "white supremacist" media bias, etc. In fact, one of the self-styled "leaders" of BLM is still asserting that Sandra Bland was murdered and that racist cops made it look like a suicide.

BLM has a proven track record of hyping up bogus cases like Michael Brown, Alton Sterling, and Antonio Martin, and NEVER conceding that they were wrong about anything. Indeed, for many, every single white cop-on-black shooting is a "racist murder" and nothing will convince them otherwise. These people are not exceptions. They're the rule. This would all be hilarious if it didn't have serious consequences for innocent cops. But it does. At least 8 cops died and many more were seriously injured because their hateful rhetoric motivated two mentally ill men to go on shooting rampages. That rhetoric also compelled another wack job to murder an innocent white woman. They won't be the last. Almost as awful, many of those associated with BLM later condoned these murders on social media. On twitter, I saw a 50-50 split between those condemning Micah (condemnations that went like, "what Micah did was wrong BUT") and those calling him a hero.

At the very core of BLM is racial hatred of the "other", masquerading under the guise of "social justice". It's not about the police. Both Jordan Davis and Treyvon Martin were the beginning of the BLM movement, neither of whom were killed by cops. Race was the issue. We watched as the Jordan Davis case was falsely portrayed by BLM and the "white supremacist media" as a racially motivated homicide -- leading Salon writer Brittany Cooper to declare that there was an "onslaught of white-on-black murder". A run-of-the mill road rage case became a media sensation and BLM cause. There is no comparable outrage over a similar case like Delrawn Small. Know why? His murderer is a black off-duty cop. We have seen repeatedly that BLM doesn't give a flying about black cops who "murder" unarmed black men. Ironically, Delrawn Small is the ONLY case this year where an unarmed black man was legitimately murdered in cold blood by a cop. In fact, at least 31% of all unarmed black men killed by cops this year were killed by black and brown cops, but you wouldn't know that from social media.
Are you implying that blacks can't have racial prejudice against blacks?

There are systematic issues and now we are just starting to get the statistics to highlight these. The statistics are tardy and incomplete but are an improvement on what went before.

With regards to the Michael Brown shooting, I do find it ironic that that particular incident was one where there was some justification* - even though the police force was riddled with malpractice.


Upthread, luchog mentioned a bunker mentality; elsewhere I mentioned a siege mentality. It's quite possible for black police to be prejudiced against blacks - there is some evidence for it too.

*Some justification, but police forces in many other countries manage to deal with large violent unarmed people without too many fatal shootings. I think training probably was an issue.


Originally Posted by Carnivore View Post
Sure. There are so many police agencies in the US and we don't hear about the majority of them from year to year. I'm certain there a great many exemplary police departments, who take training and hiring very seriously and who serve their communities professionally and well.

The problem is that over and over "the worst instances" don't seem to be a lone rotten apple but a whole rotten barrel of PD and DA's office. When cases like this come to light it usually turns out that the particular jurisdiction it happened in has a longstanding culture of police entitlement and the disregard of citizens rights. The Ferguson PD is not a weird anomaly.
Yes, there are sufficient examples that say that at best, checks and balances are not working to curb abuse of police power in many jurisdictions.
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Old 22nd July 2016, 11:11 AM   #326
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Originally Posted by Ammonitida View Post
My contention is that BLM is brimming with racist, hateful cranks. There may be an issue with unjustified police shootings but the way BLM goes about it on social media and the public is sickening. There's talk of "genocides" being waged against black men, all sorts of bizarre conspiracy theories, claims of "white supremacist" media bias, etc. In fact, one of the self-styled "leaders" of BLM is still asserting that Sandra Bland was murdered and that racist cops made it look like a suicide.

Evidence that these are representative of the mass of BLM and not random Internet nutcases?

My experience is that these sorts of people do not in any way represent the overwhelming majority of BLM activists. All movements and organizations have their lunatic fringe; focusing on these to the exclusions of the reasonable majority is crass denialism at best.
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Old 22nd July 2016, 11:16 AM   #327
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
Upthread, Lunchdog mentioned a bunker mentality; elsewhere I mentioned a siege mentality. It's quite possible for black police to be prejudiced against blacks - there is some evidence for it too.

I don't understand why so many people insist on misspelling my handle like that, and in that specific way.

I've posted on it elsewhere, but there is a very strong tendency for minority authorities, particularly police, to be much harder on their own group than outsiders are. Part of this may be that familiarity with the group means that the officer has higher expectations for his group, and/or a desire to distance themselves from negative associations with the group. Another part is to demonstrate that the authority is a "good" member of that group, willing to fully enforce the policies and mores of the authority they're associated with, and to ensure they are not accused of favoritism or leniency toward their own group.
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Old 22nd July 2016, 11:16 AM   #328
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Originally Posted by Carnivore View Post
Yes, and instant compliance. Confusion, disability, mental illness or age are not considered anything that should be even taken into account. Failure to comply instantly with an officers commands is seen as automatically justifying force.
You left out lack of English fluency.
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Old 22nd July 2016, 11:16 AM   #329
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
I agree completely and wasn't trying to excuse or make light of this incident.

I just think that sometimes we* lose track of the fact that we're taking one (abysmally handled) interaction of many (tens of thousands? Hundreds of thousands?) and that there may be many good police forces out there to whom the blanket statements we all seem to make - self included - when these incidents happen, don't apply.





(*We being you guys and me, a few thousand miles away in the international peanut gallery)
One problem is that there are huge numbers of police forces. In 2008, about 8800 police forces employed ten or fewer full time officers and 2100 employed one or fewer full time police officer.

You can't get effective oversight with that. You certainly can't get cost-effective training.

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http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/csllea08.pdf
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Old 22nd July 2016, 11:20 AM   #330
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Originally Posted by Modified View Post
As far as what we are talking about now, yes. Beatings, violent attitudes, apparent attempts to increase the odds of violent confrontation rather than decrease them. I don't think any of that is lowering crime rates.

High prison populations may be partly responsible. Long term effects of legalized abortion and elimination of leaded gasoline are probably greater contributors. An increase in entertainment options probably helps as well.
You might want to really explain that abortion thing......... Makes no sense at all.
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Old 22nd July 2016, 11:20 AM   #331
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Originally Posted by Modified View Post
Originally Posted by Carnivore View Post
Yes, and instant compliance. Confusion, disability, mental illness or age are not considered anything that should be even taken into account. Failure to comply instantly with an officers commands is seen as automatically justifying force.
You left out lack of English fluency.
And sometimes complying with an officer's instruction.
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Old 22nd July 2016, 11:29 AM   #332
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
I just think that sometimes we* lose track of the fact that we're taking one (abysmally handled) interaction of many (tens of thousands? Hundreds of thousands?) and that there may be many good police forces out there to whom the blanket statements we all seem to make - self included - when these incidents happen, don't apply.

Except that that's not what is happening. What is happening is that a few high-profile incidents are causing people to focus on certain departments, and what is being seen is that those departments have a long history and pattern of actions that can be seen as racist, classist, sexist, homophobic, or otherwise problematic; and that these actions have long been kept out of the public spotlight. With changes in technology and its availability, more and more people are shining a light into places that were previous dark.

Reports of improper actions by police that could previously have been ignored or dismissed by the general population as "exaggerations" or "anti-police propaganda" due to lack of what would be considered credible witnesses are now being demonstrated to be factual and far more widespread than was previously acknowledged.

Law enforcement agencies have a long and well-established history of suppressing and denying improper and unjustifiable acts by officers. They are increasingly less able to do that. As more of these incidents are making their way into public consciousness, and investigations are done; it becomes more and more clear just how pervasive the problem is, and it becomes harder and harder for officials and peers to simply sweep them under the rug. We are seeing the "Blue Wall of Silence" finally start to break down from outside pressure, and the "good" officers called to account for their history of protecting, shielding, and excusing the "bad apples" in their ranks.

Further, as racism, sexism, classism, homophobia, etc. become less prevalent in society as a whole, institutions and entities that still retain these attitudes are highlighted and contrasted, becoming more visible targets for reformers.
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Old 22nd July 2016, 11:32 AM   #333
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Originally Posted by fuelair View Post
You might want to really explain that abortion thing......... Makes no sense at all.
See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legali...d_crime_effect .

There are conflicting studies, but it seems likely that straightforward and legal abortion has contributed to the decrease in violent crime.
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Old 22nd July 2016, 11:37 AM   #334
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Originally Posted by fuelair View Post
You might want to really explain that abortion thing......... Makes no sense at all.
Roe vs Wade happened about 20 years before the crime rate started to drop. The theory is that those troublemakers who would have been making trouble just as the crime rate began to fall had not actually ever been born because, as it turns out, unmarried mothers of limited means are quite good at working out they won't be able to bring up their children to be good citizens just yet as they are in lousy circumstances.

It's a Freakonomics thing.

Edit - must type faster.
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Old 22nd July 2016, 12:50 PM   #335
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THis strikes me as a waste of time, but here we go...

Originally Posted by Ammonitida View Post
My contention is that BLM is brimming with racist, hateful cranks. There may be an issue with unjustified police shootings but the way BLM goes about it on social media and the public is sickening. There's talk of "genocides" being waged against black men, all sorts of bizarre conspiracy theories, claims of "white supremacist" media bias, etc. In fact, one of the self-styled "leaders" of BLM is still asserting that Sandra Bland was murdered and that racist cops made it look like a suicide.
By this reasoning, when we see defenses of shootings or beatings of Tamir Rice, John Crawford III, Freddie Gray, Rekia Boyd, Castile, Garner, Stanley-Jones, and the smearing of Trayvon Martin, we should conclude that the pro-cop side is full of hateful, racist cranks. And furthermore, we've seen defenses of all of the above here, which leads to the conclusion that at least some of our fellow posters are racist, hateful cranks.

(Course I've been saying that for years, but I don't deny that there are racist black people who hate police)

Quote:
BLM has a proven track record of hyping up bogus cases like Michael Brown, Alton Sterling, and Antonio Martin, and NEVER conceding that they were wrong about anything.
Given the absurd, and obviously violent, behavior of St. Louis area police we saw following the killing of Mike Brown, as well as their clear habit of openly lying about their own conduct caught on clear video, I see the skepticism of their reports as very well-founded, if sometimes taken too far.

And I also do not agree that anything was "proven" about Mike Brown's shooting - an actual trial would have helped to clear things up, but the unethical prosecutor in that case ensured that it wouldn't happen.

Quote:
Indeed, for many, every single white cop-on-black shooting is a "racist murder" and nothing will convince them otherwise. These people are not exceptions. They're the rule.
You seem to be the one fixated on "white cops" here.

Quote:
This would all be hilarious if it didn't have serious consequences for innocent cops. But it does. At least 8 cops died and many more were seriously injured because their hateful rhetoric motivated two mentally ill men to go on shooting rampages.
Oddly, those police who clearly do attack black people, either individually or en masse against entire communities, bear no responsibility for this response at all, and neither do the people who defend them to the point of ignoring all evidence and logic. The media commentators (O'Reilly, Carlson), police union heads (Pat Lynch Sheriff Clarke), and politicians (eg. Trump, Guiliani) who screech that this is a "war", and that black people *deserve* to be attacked bear no responsibility.

Apparently, white people are responsible for nothing, black people killed by police are responsible for themselves, black people who protest are responsible for *all* reactions - even when the people who violently shoot over it openly state that they are acting on their own, and insist that the non-violence that BLM insists on is wrong.

Feel free to respond with your own reason for the glaring double-standard you insist on.

(I wonder if I'd see similar things if I looked at the folks on my ignore list when they appear in these shootings, and compare what they say in those to what they say about that Milo Yiannawhatever being banned for his followers. Will they say "yeah, Milo's responsible for his followers and doesn't even tell them to lay off a bit", or will it be yet more obvious hypocrisy? Hah, just kidding, it'll be hypocrisy, I already know that full well.)

Quote:
That rhetoric also compelled another wack job to murder an innocent white woman. They won't be the last. Almost as awful, many of those associated with BLM later condoned these murders on social media. On twitter, I saw a 50-50 split between those condemning Micah (condemnations that went like, "what Micah did was wrong BUT") and those calling him a hero.
Well, yes, there is a "BUT". And the "BUT" is, how long do people think they can openly insist that every cop who attacks a black man woman or child must be justified, and that there's a war going on, before *someone* decides to clap back? If anything, you should be happy for the rallies, the leaders who insist on nonviolence, and so on. They're the ones doing their best to keep the wannabe fighters calm and giving them a way to vent. They're the ones listening and talking to the guys who become more enraged every time yet another video of a cop beating the crap out of some kid in school, or shooting some black guy who was just standing there, appears all over every media. And they're the ones telling them "hey, you should unplug, get away from it, don't let yourself wear out."

Quote:
At the very core of BLM is racial hatred of the "other", masquerading under the guise of "social justice". It's not about the police. Both Jordan Davis and Treyvon Martin were the beginning of the BLM movement, neither of whom were killed by cops. Race was the issue.
Yes, it was. Thus "Black Lives Matter", a statement to racists at large, rather than at police. And also, a statement towards black people who insist that black women, or black LGBT folks, are somehow worth less than black straight men. But that's another topic.

Quote:
We watched as the Jordan Davis case was falsely portrayed by BLM and the "white supremacist media" as a racially motivated homicide -- leading Salon writer Brittany Cooper to declare that there was an "onslaught of white-on-black murder". A run-of-the mill road rage case became a media sensation and BLM cause.
The guy blasting away at a retreating car while shouting "you won't talk to me that way!", loudly complaining about "thug music" and magical shotguns, was shown to *not* be a racist?

No, the guy who shot Davis (as well as the guy who shot Martin) was shown to be a clear-cut, perfectly obvious example of an anti-black racist. the claim that he wasn't is absurd.

Quote:
There is no comparable outrage over a similar case like Delrawn Small. Know why? His murderer is a black off-duty cop.
You mean like how there was no outrage over Freddie Gray, as one example?

Might I suggest that the lack of video was, by far, the more important factor in that case receiving relatively little attention? Black people such as myself are beyond tired of

Quote:
We have seen repeatedly that BLM doesn't give a flying about black cops who "murder" unarmed black men. Ironically, Delrawn Small is the ONLY case this year where an unarmed black man was legitimately murdered in cold blood by a cop. In fact, at least 31% of all unarmed black men killed by cops this year were killed by black and brown cops, but you wouldn't know that from social media.
I would. In fact, I've openly and repeatedly stated the black police are a part of the problem *here*, and I've heard many other people say it on Twitter, in podcasts, on Youtube, and so forth. Might I suggest that you actually aren't listening?
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Old 22nd July 2016, 12:55 PM   #336
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
I don't understand why so many people insist on misspelling my handle like that, and in that specific way.
Because we human like pattern matching, and your name match Lunchdog so nearly that it is difficult to not make the error .

Pls rembr that meme yu dnt ned all lttr to red a sntnce I think it is at play here too.
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Old 22nd July 2016, 12:56 PM   #337
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Originally Posted by Carnivore View Post
Originally Posted by sarge View Post
That perfectly captures the relationship between cops and citizens in the US. There are probably small pockets of normalized relations between the police and the citizens, but overwhelmingly cops expect respect and subservience.

Yes, and instant compliance. Confusion, disability, mental illness or age are not considered anything that should be even taken into account. Failure to comply instantly with an officers commands is seen as automatically justifying force.

"Ask-Tell-Make." That's how many police are trained. "First you ask someone to comply with orders, then you order them, and then you make them through the use of force. It's supposed to keep the officer safe, but some police trainers argue it's a recipe for escalation and places both police and civilians in danger," wrote disability rights journalist David Perry in his CNN .com article, Shooting a man who was lying down with his hands up? published today (July 22, 2016).

Perry's article is very informative and provides meaningful insight as to how compliance-based policing "puts everyone at some risk" and how "This was a highly dangerous situation for Rinaldo."
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Old 22nd July 2016, 12:58 PM   #338
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There are also a theory that the fact we stopped using lead also contributed greatly to the reduction of violence.

not sure there has been a demonstrated causation in either case. Only correlation.
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Old 22nd July 2016, 01:03 PM   #339
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Originally Posted by Aepervius View Post
Because we human like pattern matching, and your name match Lunchdog so nearly that it is difficult to not make the error .

Pls rembr that meme yu dnt ned all lttr to red a sntnce I think it is at play here
This - and apologies luchog...

Both my youngest daughter and I read a lot and quickly. We both seem to read in the same manner and she at least has dyslexia - I suspect that I do too.
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Old 22nd July 2016, 01:14 PM   #340
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Originally Posted by Ernie M View Post
"Ask-Tell-Make." That's how many police are trained. "First you ask someone to comply with orders, then you order them, and then you make them through the use of force. It's supposed to keep the officer safe, but some police trainers argue it's a recipe for escalation and places both police and civilians in danger," wrote disability rights journalist David Perry in his CNN .com article, Shooting a man who was lying down with his hands up? published today (July 22, 2016).

Perry's article is very informative and provides meaningful insight as to how compliance-based policing "puts everyone at some risk" and how "This was a highly dangerous situation for Rinaldo."
Thought provoking article, thanks.

I've ended up as a leader in our local Scout group (in the UK there is no requirement for faith, and the organisation is *very* keen on equality - publicising their official participation in Pride marches)

One of the kids is a resident at a local special school - he's somewhere about the mental level of a five year old. He gets a lot out of the meetings as the other Scouts are pretty good at including him and it's his only experience group activities with able peers. He has an adult minder with him at the meetings, but every so often he has a meltdown - almost exactly like a toddler. Having a stranger shouting orders at him would be unlikely to achieve anything good.
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Old 22nd July 2016, 01:16 PM   #341
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Originally Posted by Aepervius View Post
Because we human like pattern matching, and your name match Lunchdog so nearly that it is difficult to not make the error .

Pls rembr that meme yu dnt ned all lttr to red a sntnce I think it is at play here too.
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Old 22nd July 2016, 01:18 PM   #342
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Originally Posted by Ernie M View Post
"Ask-Tell-Make." That's how many police are trained. "First you ask someone to comply with orders, then you order them, and then you make them through the use of force. It's supposed to keep the officer safe, but some police trainers argue it's a recipe for escalation and places both police and civilians in danger," wrote disability rights journalist David Perry in his CNN .com article, Shooting a man who was lying down with his hands up? published today (July 22, 2016).

Perry's article is very informative and provides meaningful insight as to how compliance-based policing "puts everyone at some risk" and how "This was a highly dangerous situation for Rinaldo."
What really, really bugs me about this incident is the police officers total lack of ability to self de-escalate. They had been told that the call to 911 was about a suicidal man with a gun and dammit if they were going to treat it as anything else, even when faced with different facts on the scene. The officers were told what was happening. Why did noone lower their gun and say "Hey, wait a minute, maybe this calls for another type of response"?

It is as if they went in with their minds made up that it was almost certain that one of them would not return home that night. How could the outcome be any different?
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Old 22nd July 2016, 01:32 PM   #343
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
This - and apologies luchog...

No apologies necessary, it just struck me as bizarre that it happens so often, and with the same pattern.
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Old 22nd July 2016, 01:42 PM   #344
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Officer named

North Miami shooting: Police officer identified who shot unarmed man, By Catherine E. Shoichet, CNN

From the article:

"The officer is Jonathan Aledda, North Miami City Manager Larry Spring Jr. said at a press conference. Aledda, a four-year department veteran and a member of the SWAT team, has been placed on administrative leave.

A second police officer, Emile Hollant, has also been placed on administrative leave without pay after giving conflicting statements to investigators, Spring said."
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Old 22nd July 2016, 01:43 PM   #345
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Originally Posted by Ernie M View Post
North Miami shooting: Police officer identified who shot unarmed man

From the article

"The officer is Jonathan Aledda, North Miami City Manager Larry Spring Jr. said at a press conference. Aledda, a four-year department veteran and a member of the SWAT team, has been placed on administrative leave.

A second police officer, Emile Hollant, has also been placed on administrative leave without pay after giving conflicting statements to investigators, Spring said."
Thank goodness for cellphone videos
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Old 22nd July 2016, 01:47 PM   #346
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Originally Posted by Ernie M View Post
A second police officer, Emile Hollant, has also been placed on administrative leave without pay after giving conflicting statements to investigators, Spring said."

Aaaand the "good cop" tries to cover up for the bad cop. Hands up everyone who is surprised by that.
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Old 22nd July 2016, 02:19 PM   #347
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Originally Posted by Bogative View Post
The movement that cried wolf.
Totally unconcerned when armed agents of the government indiscriminately shoot citizens.

But when a low level faculty member at a university shoves somebody?

Implications of tyranny and Nazism are invoked:
Originally Posted by Bogative View Post
The little Ginger Tyrant that can be seen in the video putting her hands on a journalist's camera then asking for "muscle" to remove him is Melissa Click, assistant professor of mass media at the university's school of communication. I guess jackboots do come in women's sizes. LINK
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Old 22nd July 2016, 02:20 PM   #348
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
Thank goodness for cellphone videos
You've got that right. This could've had a whole different outcome.

Hopefully the officers involved will learn from their mistakes. Crisis Intervention Team training could go a long way...along with the ability to correctly assess a situation. Slow things down in an effort to de-escalate interactions with the public. Things have to change- the results could benefit everyone.

I wish behavior therapist Charles Kinsey a speedy and full recovery.

Charles Kinsey, you did an exemplary job to help ensure the safety and well-being of Rinaldo, your client/patient. You showed compassion, caring, and empathy. Thank you.
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Old 22nd July 2016, 02:41 PM   #349
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Originally Posted by Ernie M View Post
You've got that right. This could've had a whole different outcome.

Hopefully the officers involved will learn from their mistakes. Crisis Intervention Team training could go a long way...along with the ability to correctly assess a situation. Slow things down in an effort to de-escalate interactions with the public. Things have to change- the results could benefit everyone.

I wish behavior therapist Charles Kinsey a speedy and full recovery.

Charles Kinsey, you did an exemplary job to help ensure the safety and well-being of Rinaldo, your client/patient. You showed compassion, caring, and empathy. Thank you.
Personally I'd replace learn from their mistakes with get sacked
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Old 22nd July 2016, 02:46 PM   #350
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Quote:
"I took this job to save lives and help people," according to the officer's text statement. "I did what I had to do in a split second to accomplish that, and hate to hear others paint me as something I'm not."
http://edition.cnn.com/2016/07/22/us...ing/index.html

What split second? The split second where you are told that there is no gun, the "threat" is an autistic man and that he is holding a toy truck? That split second? One hell of a long split second...
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Old 22nd July 2016, 02:58 PM   #351
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Originally Posted by erlando View Post
http://edition.cnn.com/2016/07/22/us...ing/index.html

What split second? The split second where you are told that there is no gun, the "threat" is an autistic man and that he is holding a toy truck? That split second? One hell of a long split second...
At the very least, he is extremely incompetent and needs to be fired and never work as a cop again.
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Old 22nd July 2016, 03:21 PM   #352
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"I took this job to save lives and help people,"

Oh, that's why you shot at an autistic man with a toy truck, and hit his caretaker. Well, say no more then.
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Old 22nd July 2016, 03:35 PM   #353
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Old 22nd July 2016, 03:48 PM   #354
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Originally Posted by Ernie M View Post
"Ask-Tell-Make." That's how many police are trained. "First you ask someone to comply with orders, then you order them, and then you make them through the use of force. It's supposed to keep the officer safe, but some police trainers argue it's a recipe for escalation and places both police and civilians in danger," wrote disability rights journalist David Perry in his CNN .com article, Shooting a man who was lying down with his hands up? published today (July 22, 2016).

Perry's article is very informative and provides meaningful insight as to how compliance-based policing "puts everyone at some risk" and how "This was a highly dangerous situation for Rinaldo."
That's a great article, it tallies with what I've heard elsewhere and it explains a lot of the apparently senseless killings of impaired people in the US. If a departments police training essentially requires officers to treat every interaction with the public as potentially deadly, there really isn't any other way it could go. Any non compliance is treated as potentially a threat and the only way to ensure officers safety is to escalate in the face of any potential threat. That policy means that officers can't dial it back even when that's clearly the right thing to do.

The handful of times I've seen cops in NZ and Britain deal with tense situations (occasionally I had to call them when I worked in hotels) I remember the approach was usually the same. Calm voices, physical separation of disputants, politeness, asking questions of everyone involved and listening to the answers. Several times when drunk people started getting upset and raising their voices to the cops I've seen them be quietly asked to sit down in a nearby chair while an officer sat beside them. Each time I've seen that the drunk has quickly calmed down. A couple of times I've had a responding officer tell me that the situation has been resolved between the parties who will go straight to bed and check out first thing in the morning. In retrospect it seems the priority was always on calming the situation down.

It's kind of a cliche in threads like this but I do wonder if that's the legacy of Sir Robert Peels 1829 principles of policing, which were hugely influential on British and British descended police forces.
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Old 22nd July 2016, 05:26 PM   #355
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
I just don't think you can take a direct hit in the leg at close range with an AR-15 round and think it was a mosquito bite, or have much chance of keeping your leg.
It's doesn't hurt at first, you can hardly feel a severe injury to you limbs when it first happens.

Dude blows his leg RIGHT OFF playing with Tannerite (check youtube) ... reports to his pals ... "Blew my leg off" ... on the video.
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Old 22nd July 2016, 05:30 PM   #356
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
And a third thing, if a bystander some distance away using a phone camera upon which you can clearly see a grown man playing with a toy truck and hear the victim say, "It's a toy truck," .... how hard is that to see if you are there on the scene?
If a person is in panic mode ... perihelia vision and hearing get shut off, I've had this happen to me in vehicle accidents and falls while rock climbing.
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Old 22nd July 2016, 05:36 PM   #357
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Originally Posted by Yeggster View Post
If a person is in panic mode ... perihelia vision and hearing get shut off, I've had this happen to me in vehicle accidents and falls while rock climbing.
Then he shouldn't be a cop
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Old 22nd July 2016, 05:41 PM   #358
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
Then you have a greatly exaggerated view of police marksmanship.
This is spot ON!

I've shot with Police officers in Practical Shooting competitions (they often stop by the range when there's a catch on and are always welcome.

Conversations after typically go "How the hell do you shoot like that while running..." or "How could you double tap that target 50 meter's away.." ... "I saw you reload a mad, before the empty one hit the ground.."

The answers are simple ... practice ... When I was in competition I'd shoot 5000 rounds in an afternoon.

Why 5000? .. that's all the brass I had

A cops job does NOT involve a lot of shooting ... now try to out DRIVE THEM? ..

I can barley parallel park ... I saw a cop drive BACKWARD at 40 miles an hour for a half MILE once ... on a dirt trial ... barley wide enough to fit the cruiser down
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Old 22nd July 2016, 06:01 PM   #359
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Originally Posted by Yeggster View Post
This is spot ON!

I've shot with Police officers in Practical Shooting competitions (they often stop by the range when there's a catch on and are always welcome.

Conversations after typically go "How the hell do you shoot like that while running..." or "How could you double tap that target 50 meter's away.." ... "I saw you reload a mad, before the empty one hit the ground.."

The answers are simple ... practice ... When I was in competition I'd shoot 5000 rounds in an afternoon.

Why 5000? .. that's all the brass I had

A cops job does NOT involve a lot of shooting ... now try to out DRIVE THEM? ..

I can barley parallel park ... I saw a cop drive BACKWARD at 40 miles an hour for a half MILE once ... on a dirt trial ... barley wide enough to fit the cruiser down
Is this post serious?
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Old 22nd July 2016, 06:17 PM   #360
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Is this post serious?
I rather doubt it... I put about 300 rounds thru a pistol in one day and had sore hands. 5000? Yeah right.
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