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22nd July 2016, 10:26 AM | #321 |
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I'd say you'd be surprised how little people pay attention to statistics or real-world trends, and simply make assumptions based on popular misconceptions, emotional reasoning, and personal belief/prejudice; but the fact that this forum and others like it exist should pretty much mean that we aren't surprised by any such thing. It's a similar mindset to the one that believes in the efficacy of alt.med despite the overwhelming evidence against it. Personal anecdote and preconceptions always overrule evidence for many people. At best, they may react to the evidence along the lines of "yes, the rate is going down in general, but where I am it is still very bad". But for the most part, I would expect that few officers are truly aware of the crime rates and their history. And even if they are, as noted earlier, they will tend to attribute that to their efforts and practices, rather than broader social trends and changes. |
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When you say that fascists should only be defeated through debate, what you're really saying is that the marginalized and vulnerable should have to endlessly argue for their right to exist; and at no point should they ever be fully accepted, and the debate considered won. |
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22nd July 2016, 10:31 AM | #322 |
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22nd July 2016, 10:39 AM | #323 |
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Sure. There are so many police agencies in the US and we don't hear about the majority of them from year to year. I'm certain there a great many exemplary police departments, who take training and hiring very seriously and who serve their communities professionally and well.
The problem is that over and over "the worst instances" don't seem to be a lone rotten apple but a whole rotten barrel of PD and DA's office. When cases like this come to light it usually turns out that the particular jurisdiction it happened in has a longstanding culture of police entitlement and the disregard of citizens rights. The Ferguson PD is not a weird anomaly. |
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22nd July 2016, 11:01 AM | #324 |
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I agree completely and wasn't trying to excuse or make light of this incident. I just think that sometimes we* lose track of the fact that we're taking one (abysmally handled) interaction of many (tens of thousands? Hundreds of thousands?) and that there may be many good police forces out there to whom the blanket statements we all seem to make - self included - when these incidents happen, don't apply. (*We being you guys and me, a few thousand miles away in the international peanut gallery) |
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22nd July 2016, 11:09 AM | #325 |
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Are you implying that blacks can't have racial prejudice against blacks?
There are systematic issues and now we are just starting to get the statistics to highlight these. The statistics are tardy and incomplete but are an improvement on what went before. With regards to the Michael Brown shooting, I do find it ironic that that particular incident was one where there was some justification* - even though the police force was riddled with malpractice. Upthread, luchog mentioned a bunker mentality; elsewhere I mentioned a siege mentality. It's quite possible for black police to be prejudiced against blacks - there is some evidence for it too. *Some justification, but police forces in many other countries manage to deal with large violent unarmed people without too many fatal shootings. I think training probably was an issue. Yes, there are sufficient examples that say that at best, checks and balances are not working to curb abuse of police power in many jurisdictions. |
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22nd July 2016, 11:11 AM | #326 |
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Evidence that these are representative of the mass of BLM and not random Internet nutcases? My experience is that these sorts of people do not in any way represent the overwhelming majority of BLM activists. All movements and organizations have their lunatic fringe; focusing on these to the exclusions of the reasonable majority is crass denialism at best. |
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When you say that fascists should only be defeated through debate, what you're really saying is that the marginalized and vulnerable should have to endlessly argue for their right to exist; and at no point should they ever be fully accepted, and the debate considered won. |
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22nd July 2016, 11:16 AM | #327 |
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I don't understand why so many people insist on misspelling my handle like that, and in that specific way. I've posted on it elsewhere, but there is a very strong tendency for minority authorities, particularly police, to be much harder on their own group than outsiders are. Part of this may be that familiarity with the group means that the officer has higher expectations for his group, and/or a desire to distance themselves from negative associations with the group. Another part is to demonstrate that the authority is a "good" member of that group, willing to fully enforce the policies and mores of the authority they're associated with, and to ensure they are not accused of favoritism or leniency toward their own group. |
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When you say that fascists should only be defeated through debate, what you're really saying is that the marginalized and vulnerable should have to endlessly argue for their right to exist; and at no point should they ever be fully accepted, and the debate considered won. |
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22nd July 2016, 11:16 AM | #328 |
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22nd July 2016, 11:16 AM | #329 |
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One problem is that there are huge numbers of police forces. In 2008, about 8800 police forces employed ten or fewer full time officers and 2100 employed one or fewer full time police officer.
You can't get effective oversight with that. You certainly can't get cost-effective training. PDF below http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/csllea08.pdf |
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22nd July 2016, 11:20 AM | #330 |
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22nd July 2016, 11:20 AM | #331 |
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22nd July 2016, 11:29 AM | #332 |
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Except that that's not what is happening. What is happening is that a few high-profile incidents are causing people to focus on certain departments, and what is being seen is that those departments have a long history and pattern of actions that can be seen as racist, classist, sexist, homophobic, or otherwise problematic; and that these actions have long been kept out of the public spotlight. With changes in technology and its availability, more and more people are shining a light into places that were previous dark. Reports of improper actions by police that could previously have been ignored or dismissed by the general population as "exaggerations" or "anti-police propaganda" due to lack of what would be considered credible witnesses are now being demonstrated to be factual and far more widespread than was previously acknowledged. Law enforcement agencies have a long and well-established history of suppressing and denying improper and unjustifiable acts by officers. They are increasingly less able to do that. As more of these incidents are making their way into public consciousness, and investigations are done; it becomes more and more clear just how pervasive the problem is, and it becomes harder and harder for officials and peers to simply sweep them under the rug. We are seeing the "Blue Wall of Silence" finally start to break down from outside pressure, and the "good" officers called to account for their history of protecting, shielding, and excusing the "bad apples" in their ranks. Further, as racism, sexism, classism, homophobia, etc. become less prevalent in society as a whole, institutions and entities that still retain these attitudes are highlighted and contrasted, becoming more visible targets for reformers. |
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When you say that fascists should only be defeated through debate, what you're really saying is that the marginalized and vulnerable should have to endlessly argue for their right to exist; and at no point should they ever be fully accepted, and the debate considered won. |
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22nd July 2016, 11:32 AM | #333 |
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See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legali...d_crime_effect .
There are conflicting studies, but it seems likely that straightforward and legal abortion has contributed to the decrease in violent crime. |
22nd July 2016, 11:37 AM | #334 |
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Roe vs Wade happened about 20 years before the crime rate started to drop. The theory is that those troublemakers who would have been making trouble just as the crime rate began to fall had not actually ever been born because, as it turns out, unmarried mothers of limited means are quite good at working out they won't be able to bring up their children to be good citizens just yet as they are in lousy circumstances.
It's a Freakonomics thing. Edit - must type faster. |
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22nd July 2016, 12:50 PM | #335 |
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THis strikes me as a waste of time, but here we go...
By this reasoning, when we see defenses of shootings or beatings of Tamir Rice, John Crawford III, Freddie Gray, Rekia Boyd, Castile, Garner, Stanley-Jones, and the smearing of Trayvon Martin, we should conclude that the pro-cop side is full of hateful, racist cranks. And furthermore, we've seen defenses of all of the above here, which leads to the conclusion that at least some of our fellow posters are racist, hateful cranks. (Course I've been saying that for years, but I don't deny that there are racist black people who hate police)
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And I also do not agree that anything was "proven" about Mike Brown's shooting - an actual trial would have helped to clear things up, but the unethical prosecutor in that case ensured that it wouldn't happen.
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Apparently, white people are responsible for nothing, black people killed by police are responsible for themselves, black people who protest are responsible for *all* reactions - even when the people who violently shoot over it openly state that they are acting on their own, and insist that the non-violence that BLM insists on is wrong. Feel free to respond with your own reason for the glaring double-standard you insist on. (I wonder if I'd see similar things if I looked at the folks on my ignore list when they appear in these shootings, and compare what they say in those to what they say about that Milo Yiannawhatever being banned for his followers. Will they say "yeah, Milo's responsible for his followers and doesn't even tell them to lay off a bit", or will it be yet more obvious hypocrisy? Hah, just kidding, it'll be hypocrisy, I already know that full well.)
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No, the guy who shot Davis (as well as the guy who shot Martin) was shown to be a clear-cut, perfectly obvious example of an anti-black racist. the claim that he wasn't is absurd.
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Might I suggest that the lack of video was, by far, the more important factor in that case receiving relatively little attention? Black people such as myself are beyond tired of
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22nd July 2016, 12:55 PM | #336 |
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22nd July 2016, 12:56 PM | #337 |
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"Ask-Tell-Make." That's how many police are trained. "First you ask someone to comply with orders, then you order them, and then you make them through the use of force. It's supposed to keep the officer safe, but some police trainers argue it's a recipe for escalation and places both police and civilians in danger," wrote disability rights journalist David Perry in his CNN .com article, Shooting a man who was lying down with his hands up? published today (July 22, 2016). Perry's article is very informative and provides meaningful insight as to how compliance-based policing "puts everyone at some risk" and how "This was a highly dangerous situation for Rinaldo." |
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22nd July 2016, 12:58 PM | #338 |
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There are also a theory that the fact we stopped using lead also contributed greatly to the reduction of violence.
not sure there has been a demonstrated causation in either case. Only correlation. |
22nd July 2016, 01:03 PM | #339 |
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22nd July 2016, 01:14 PM | #340 |
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Thought provoking article, thanks.
I've ended up as a leader in our local Scout group (in the UK there is no requirement for faith, and the organisation is *very* keen on equality - publicising their official participation in Pride marches) One of the kids is a resident at a local special school - he's somewhere about the mental level of a five year old. He gets a lot out of the meetings as the other Scouts are pretty good at including him and it's his only experience group activities with able peers. He has an adult minder with him at the meetings, but every so often he has a meltdown - almost exactly like a toddler. Having a stranger shouting orders at him would be unlikely to achieve anything good. |
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22nd July 2016, 01:16 PM | #341 |
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22nd July 2016, 01:18 PM | #342 |
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What really, really bugs me about this incident is the police officers total lack of ability to self de-escalate. They had been told that the call to 911 was about a suicidal man with a gun and dammit if they were going to treat it as anything else, even when faced with different facts on the scene. The officers were told what was happening. Why did noone lower their gun and say "Hey, wait a minute, maybe this calls for another type of response"?
It is as if they went in with their minds made up that it was almost certain that one of them would not return home that night. How could the outcome be any different? |
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22nd July 2016, 01:32 PM | #343 |
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When you say that fascists should only be defeated through debate, what you're really saying is that the marginalized and vulnerable should have to endlessly argue for their right to exist; and at no point should they ever be fully accepted, and the debate considered won. |
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22nd July 2016, 01:42 PM | #344 |
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Officer named
North Miami shooting: Police officer identified who shot unarmed man, By Catherine E. Shoichet, CNN
From the article: "The officer is Jonathan Aledda, North Miami City Manager Larry Spring Jr. said at a press conference. Aledda, a four-year department veteran and a member of the SWAT team, has been placed on administrative leave. A second police officer, Emile Hollant, has also been placed on administrative leave without pay after giving conflicting statements to investigators, Spring said." |
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22nd July 2016, 01:43 PM | #345 |
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22nd July 2016, 01:47 PM | #346 |
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When you say that fascists should only be defeated through debate, what you're really saying is that the marginalized and vulnerable should have to endlessly argue for their right to exist; and at no point should they ever be fully accepted, and the debate considered won. |
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22nd July 2016, 02:19 PM | #347 |
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22nd July 2016, 02:20 PM | #348 |
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You've got that right. This could've had a whole different outcome.
Hopefully the officers involved will learn from their mistakes. Crisis Intervention Team training could go a long way...along with the ability to correctly assess a situation. Slow things down in an effort to de-escalate interactions with the public. Things have to change- the results could benefit everyone. I wish behavior therapist Charles Kinsey a speedy and full recovery. Charles Kinsey, you did an exemplary job to help ensure the safety and well-being of Rinaldo, your client/patient. You showed compassion, caring, and empathy. Thank you. |
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22nd July 2016, 02:41 PM | #349 |
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22nd July 2016, 02:46 PM | #350 |
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Quote:
What split second? The split second where you are told that there is no gun, the "threat" is an autistic man and that he is holding a toy truck? That split second? One hell of a long split second... |
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22nd July 2016, 02:58 PM | #351 |
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22nd July 2016, 03:21 PM | #352 |
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"I took this job to save lives and help people,"
Oh, that's why you shot at an autistic man with a toy truck, and hit his caretaker. Well, say no more then. |
22nd July 2016, 03:35 PM | #353 |
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Deleted: wrong thread
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22nd July 2016, 03:48 PM | #354 |
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That's a great article, it tallies with what I've heard elsewhere and it explains a lot of the apparently senseless killings of impaired people in the US. If a departments police training essentially requires officers to treat every interaction with the public as potentially deadly, there really isn't any other way it could go. Any non compliance is treated as potentially a threat and the only way to ensure officers safety is to escalate in the face of any potential threat. That policy means that officers can't dial it back even when that's clearly the right thing to do.
The handful of times I've seen cops in NZ and Britain deal with tense situations (occasionally I had to call them when I worked in hotels) I remember the approach was usually the same. Calm voices, physical separation of disputants, politeness, asking questions of everyone involved and listening to the answers. Several times when drunk people started getting upset and raising their voices to the cops I've seen them be quietly asked to sit down in a nearby chair while an officer sat beside them. Each time I've seen that the drunk has quickly calmed down. A couple of times I've had a responding officer tell me that the situation has been resolved between the parties who will go straight to bed and check out first thing in the morning. In retrospect it seems the priority was always on calming the situation down. It's kind of a cliche in threads like this but I do wonder if that's the legacy of Sir Robert Peels 1829 principles of policing, which were hugely influential on British and British descended police forces. |
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22nd July 2016, 05:26 PM | #355 |
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22nd July 2016, 05:30 PM | #356 |
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22nd July 2016, 05:36 PM | #357 |
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22nd July 2016, 05:41 PM | #358 |
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This is spot ON!
I've shot with Police officers in Practical Shooting competitions (they often stop by the range when there's a catch on and are always welcome. Conversations after typically go "How the hell do you shoot like that while running..." or "How could you double tap that target 50 meter's away.." ... "I saw you reload a mad, before the empty one hit the ground.." The answers are simple ... practice ... When I was in competition I'd shoot 5000 rounds in an afternoon. Why 5000? .. that's all the brass I had A cops job does NOT involve a lot of shooting ... now try to out DRIVE THEM? .. I can barley parallel park ... I saw a cop drive BACKWARD at 40 miles an hour for a half MILE once ... on a dirt trial ... barley wide enough to fit the cruiser down |
22nd July 2016, 06:01 PM | #359 |
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22nd July 2016, 06:17 PM | #360 |
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